live or frozen mice?

As I said, some of us do supplement, and have been for a long time. Not adult rodents, of course--just babies. I'm not sure why you think this is a unique idea.
You prefer to assume that the baby snakes are fine on baby rodents, as they appear healthy and they grow. I prefer to assume that adding a bit of extra calcium is an insurance of healthy bone density as they grow, and that might reflect on their health and longevity as adults (as well as curtailing possible problems during breeding). I might be wrong--it could be unecessary. It is not, however, harmful, because it is not excessive, and the animals thrive on it. It costs me little, and if I am right, then the benefits are worth it. If I am wrong, no harm done.
That's all I've been advocating all along--that I prefer to play it safe whenever possible.

I want to stress again, the fact that I do things this way, and do them because of the reasons I have stated, does not mean I think others are doing them the wrong way because they're doing them differently. If it's working for them, then it's obviously fine. I could be wrong--heck, ALL of us could be wrong, and in 10 years someone will discover some husbandry technique that doubles their lifespan and makes them lay 20 egg clutches every year, we can't know that. <lol> If I don't present why I do things the way I do, then people can't very well make an informed decision about whether they want to do them that way, or a different way. I figure threads like this exist to educate, and offer options--it's not going to result in a final conclusion.

I've seen husbandry information and techniques change drastically since I started keeping reptiles, and all of us learn something new on a regular basis. Herpetoculture keeps you on your toes. If something I'm doing proves NOT to be the best way, I'll let people know about it, and change what I'm doing. It's that simple. My snakes aren't fat, and I have their feeding records from the past year, so I know what they've been eating, and how often.

My biggest girl weighs 3400 grams, and laid a clutch of 12 good eggs last year. She's a long snake, not overweight. I'll be giving her a medium rat weekly--not a small one. If her weight continues to climb slowly, I'll stick with that. If it goes way up, I'll alternate mediums and smalls. If it levels out, I'll move up to large rats, or give her an extra small every other week. etc. (I don't think a large rat would put her off of eating, it wouldn't even make a visible lump in her--she's simply too large).

Her previous owners gave her mediums and smalls--sometimes several at once. Clearly she's done well on it.

If she comes out of the breeding season weighing more than she does right now, then I'll know she needs less food. I'm not really expecting that to happen.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Breeding animals need more food than pets, and a large female going into the breeding season is better off with more food than a small rat once a week. In my opinion.

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Based on what evidence or experience? Or are you just assuming?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

(Observing a live feeding is pretty much all you can do...you can't prevent a bite from happening when the snake grabs a rodent wrong.

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If you feed live prey correctly, your snake won't "grab it wrong". It doesn't take much to figure out how to train your animals to safely consume live prey ... I've done it as well as many many others that I know. It's certainly far easier that teaching a ball python to eat F/T 52 weeks a year.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

A nip from a young rat is different from a full-force 'omg I'm dying' bite. I have witnessed injuries from bites inflicted by small rats. (Again, small adults--not pups).

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That's ashame ... bites are something that can be avoided. My snakes never get bit by their food ... I'm going on 25+ years of keeping ball pythons and while I've fed frozen at times the majority of the feedings I've done during that time have been live ... and all without incident.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's my opinion that lower calcium levels can contribute to egg binding

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I've been breeding ball pythons for over 10 years now and have never had a problem with egg binding from a properly fed animals. Now obese animals that have been fed too much certainly have caused me problems.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

so ensuring that young reptiles have a bit of extra calcium while growing up,and that breeding females get adequate amounts of it, will help prevent that from happening.

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Is this something that you have actual experience with in ball pythons? How many egg bound females have you had?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I think the heavier skeleton of a fully adult rat is an adequate source of calcium, but the immature skeleton of a pup isn't quite enough, so I choose to supplement.

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How do you figure that? Have you had problems that would indicate this to be true? Do you have research material to substantiate your claim? Do you have direct experience with large numbers of ball pythons fed both ways that would cause you to lean one way or the other?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Adult mice are fine too, but it takes a lot of them to feed a 3000 gram breeding female ball python.

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Not really.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I imagine if you're breeding a rack of mice, it's no big deal

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Exactly ... which is why I always advocate feeding what the animal will eat and what is most convenient for the keeper. Nothing wrong with a 3000 gram ball python that has a preference for mice in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

F/T might be a hassle with a large collection, but I can think of ways to make it less of one. I'll be there eventually myself anyhow, and be happy to let you know how I handle it. ;)

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LOL ... let me know how that works out for you. ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

A nonbreeding ball python probably only needs one large prey item every 2 weeks.

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According to whom?

-adam

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm coming back into herp keeping after a long hiatus.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not the only person who supplements baby rodents by dipping their butt in calcium powder

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Ahhhh .... makes more sense now. I remember many years ago that people believed that this would be helpful. We know a lot more now and no one working with these animals (ball pythons) in any signifigant numbers over the last decade practices this anymore.

-adam

Clearly you're interested in arguing...I'm not. I've explained myself adequately, in my opinion, and if I haven't in yours, it will just have to do. ;)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Clearly you're interested in arguing

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Absolutely not.

What I'm interested in is making sure that the correct information is presented to the people reading and that will read this thread.

Live feeding CAN BE done safely.

Supplements of any kind ARE NOT necessary in a properly fed ball pythons diet.

Smaller prey items work EXTREMELY WELL for raising ball pythons both as pets and as breeders.

Those are not my opinions, they are facts that I can prove.

Hope this helps. :D

-adam

But they aren't. See, that's why you're trying to make it into an argument. I'm happy to let it rest as your opinion, but you're insisting that it's fact, and it isn't. You cannot prove any of the things that you just said, except that small prey items work extremely well. Sure they do. So do moderate prey items. The rest of it is opinion. You can't prove that supplements aren't useful when feeding baby rodents anymore than I can prove that they are, because that research has not been done. You can't prove that there is a way to prevent a snake from being bitten by a live rodent, even if it's somehow never happened to you. You can't prove that live rodents don't present a higher risk of parasite transmission than frozen. There are ways to minimize the risks of live feeding, but not eliminate them completely. To most people who feed live, the risks are within acceptable limits--and that's fine. But to pretend the risks do not exist isn't honest.
If you can prove ANY of those things (and proof, by the way, does not mean anecdotal evidence), then by all means do so, and I will gladly concede the point.
Otherwise, I've stated my opinion, you have stated yours, and that's the end of it.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

But they aren't. See, that's why you're trying to make it into an argument. I'm happy to let it rest as your opinion, but you're insisting that it's fact, and it isn't. You cannot prove any of the things that you just said, except that small prey items work extremely well. Sure they do. So do moderate prey items. The rest of it is opinion. You can't prove that supplements aren't useful when feeding baby rodents anymore than I can prove that they are, because that research has not been done. You can't prove that there is a way to prevent a snake from being bitten by a live rodent, even if it's somehow never happened to you. You can't prove that live rodents don't present a higher risk of parasite transmission than frozen. There are ways to minimize the risks of live feeding, but not eliminate them completely. To most people who feed live, the risks are within acceptable limits--and that's fine. But to pretend the risks do not exist isn't honest.
If you can prove ANY of those things (and proof, by the way, does not mean anecdotal evidence), then by all means do so, and I will gladly concede the point.
Otherwise, I've stated my opinion, you have stated yours, and that's the end of it.

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I have the animals, the experience, and the data to stand behind what I say as 100% fact. You're more than welcome to stop by any time and take a look ... it's always been an open invitation to anyone with doubt.

-adam

You'll show me the proof if I stop by in person? lol...
Whatever. Moving on.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You'll show me the proof if I stop by in person? lol...
Whatever. Moving on.

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Adam absolutely will, although you seem to be rejecting that offer when you may learn a thing or two....

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

You'll show me the proof if I stop by in person?

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Absolutely.

We'll feed 700+ ball pythons live rats and mice without a single one getting bit (because live feeding can be done safely).

I'll show you 10+ year old animals that I have raised from the egg that have never had a supplement (because they don't need it), produce clutches every year, and are absolutely perfect in every way.

I'll show you hundreds of adult ball pythons that have never had a meal larger than a 40-50 gram rat and are thriving (because small meals work extremely well for ball pythons).

My offer stands ... talk is cheap ... come see the proof for yourself. ;)

-adam

I'm sure they are all lovely, healthy animals.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...on/NoLlama.jpg

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Adult mice are fine too, but it takes a lot of them to feed a 3000 gram breeding female ball python

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2 to 3 depending on their size.

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Anyhow, I think I've presented my side--which was my intention, not to start an argument over it.

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Problem is there is no side, that is what many have try to explain here there is no one prey better than the other whether it is live or f/t mice or rats, it all comes down to being knowledgeable know your options, what works for your snake and is convinient for you without trying to imply one is better, than an another and respect people's choice.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Adam's breeders do fine on one small rat a week. He has just a "little bit" of hands on practical experience in the matter. :cool:

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That Adam guy breed snakes :P , oh yeah that's right I hear he has nice balls too ;) :twisted:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm sure they are all lovely, healthy animals.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...on/NoLlama.jpg

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LOL. Figures.

-adam