Does anyone not like morphs.....

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Originally Posted by N4S

Nope.

No problems with NERD. JoshJP7 mentioned them first so I used them as an example. And I never used their names in a negative way or downplayed them. I am aware that they are one of the more reputable breeders out there.

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Thanks for clearing that up! :)

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

Heck I just found a breeder in Erie PA that I met at a herp show here on sunday.

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I am originally from Erie. May I ask his name? Just curious. :)

i like morphs

I do not not like morphs. :D

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

Quality doesn't just mean it will breed, it means is it the correct sex? prices can vary dramatically from one sex to another. Is it healthy, mites? RI? wounds, neurilogical disorders? IBD? some of these could wipe out your whole collection. Is it eating or has it ever ate. I see people selling animals close to death. Is it really a het? I have seen and heard some horror stories, animals with gashes, wanna be morphs that aren't.

When I first started collecting morphs I received a pastel male that was supposed to be a female and we are talking big difference in price at the time.
I recieved an albino that had a imune system disorder and died. These were great deals on KS. Those graet deals cost me many $1,000 of dollars and put my breeding projects back years.

Just because Joe blow wants to sell them cheap doesn't mean everyone will follow.
Just because you produce snakes doesn't mean you are gonna sell them.

When you have established a name and a positive reputation then people will buy your snakes and take your prices seriously.

But just because you bred some snakes and think you can sell them cheaper doesn't mean anyone is gonna take you seriously when no one knows who the hell you are.

Yeah you may sell some to some newbies and hopefully you are honest but there are alot of scams, liars and down right thieves out there. Do your homework, check the BOI ask about people on forums and know what questions to ask about a particular morph. Does the spider spin bad? high white? I saw a guy selling normals as cinnies, cheap of course. People selling hets with paperwork they cpoied from other breeders(normals of course), cheap of course.

That is what quality and peace of mind are. Don't get me wrong we all want a good deal but you want it from a trustworthy source, not some random guy on KS. I've been there done that and would like to help other not make the mistakes I made when I started.


Best one yet a friend of a friend bought a BP morph for over a grand($1,000) on KS, great deal and got a corn snake. Ouch!

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I'm late on this thread But I vouch for him I have lost $2,000 in a bad deal with a scammer that has also set my breeding back years. I used to buy from the cheapest around but after meeting people and bad experience it's worth the extra money.

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I can't imagine someone not liking a Pied Ball...
No way! Morphs are the best!

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Actually Pieds are probably my least favorite morph. I don't know why, but I just don't think they look very cool/good. That being said, I'm sure everyone has a morph or two they don't like, but to hate all of them to the point where you'll only like normals? That I couldn't understand.

When you guys say you'd rather buy from KS (kingsnake) are you talkin about kingsnake.com? Can someone provide me a direct link to the KS breeder website? Thanks a lot :)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

And that's really just the way life is - Ball python morphs, to me, are a luxury and like most luxury items, not everyone can have them. It's not like it's god-given right to own a Ferrari, right?

A good rule to go by, is to never spend more than you can afford to lose...to some people that is tens of thousands of dollars, to others that is tens of dollars...I go back to what I said before, that's what so great about ball pythons - there's an animal that fits everyone's taste, and bank account.

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Well your analogy is not a very good one. a Ferrari is on a whole other level then any other normal car. From the suspension, to the engine, to the interior, to the handling, to over all performance. unlike that of any other vehicle. To me a morph is just another ball python with a real cool paint job. Is it any better then a normal? No, its going to act and live the same as any normal,. so for just a different coat of paint it's hundreds extra? It ridiculous.

and like I said before I don't plan on breeding so I have nothing to lose. And because someone else wants to try and test the market on breeding, some current breeders may inflate the price and make it very hard for someone who may want to breed make thier money back. Or for an every day average guy to get something he likes and wants as a pet or a display.

It comes a point where people no longer do this for the love of an animal. They do it purely for the money and don't care about the animals health, safety, or well being. All they can think about is "Whats the next trick I can go for to fatten my pocket book"? It's really quite a shame honestly.

And with the comment about a ball to fit everyones bank account. Are you refering to a normal just being the ghetto's version or a poor mans versions? Which then could be a post asked "Does anyone still like normals"?

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

Well your analogy is not a very good one. a Ferrari is on a whole other level then any other normal car. From the suspension, to the engine, to the interior, to the handling, to over all performance. unlike that of any other vehicle. To me a morph is just another ball python with a real cool paint job. Is it any better then a normal? No, its going to act and live the same as any normal,. so for just a different coat of paint it's hundreds extra? It ridiculous.

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Pick apart my analogy all you want - did you at least get the idea there?

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

It comes a point where people no longer do this for the love of an animal. They do it purely for the money and don't care about the animals health, safety, or well being. All they can think about is "Whats the next trick I can go for to fatten my pocket book"? It's really quite a shame honestly.

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There are professional breeders that feed their kids on the income generated from producing ball pythons. To say that it's a "shame" is a really misguided way of thinking - there are breeders out there that while money is a motivating force, they have a passion for what they do and provide quality animals and service. Sure, there absolutely are scumbags out there that have gotten into the ball market looking for nothing else but a dollar, but whether you like it or not, I promise you that if it weren't for the strong economic demand for ball pythons and ball python mutations, there would NOT be being bred in captivity at the level they are now.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

And with the comment about a ball to fit everyones bank account. Are you refering to a normal just being the ghetto's version or a poor mans versions? Which then could be a post asked "Does anyone still like normals"?

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You're reading too deeply into that. All I meant was that some people have more disposable income than others, and while $100 for a pastel might be a lot to some, $1000 for an albino isn't a lot for others. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

Well your analogy is not a very good one. a Ferrari is on a whole other level then any other normal car. From the suspension, to the engine, to the interior, to the handling, to over all performance. unlike that of any other vehicle. To me a morph is just another ball python with a real cool paint job. Is it any better then a normal? No, its going to act and live the same as any normal,. so for just a different coat of paint it's hundreds extra? It ridiculous.

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This sounds like you want a morph but can't bring yourself to pay more than the normal price for them. Look at it this way.
Yea but you can get a $99.00 paint job at the local chop shop or you can get a 5000.00 paint job at the House of Kolor. Same car different paint job. Looks different, stands out yea it same drives the same but you can't buy a car with a house of Color Kolor spray job for the same price as a local spray job now can you. It has to do with the amount of work required to achieve that paint job that makes it special. Same with morphs yea its just a ball python with a different paint job but its a paint job that took years to achieve.

If you don't like morphs because they cost to much. Thats cool 100% totally understand. But I don't see the point in complaining cause some people don't have a problem paying hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands for a morph.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

To me a morph is just another ball python with a real cool paint job. Is it any better then a normal? No, its going to act and live the same as any normal,. so for just a different coat of paint it's hundreds extra? It ridiculous.

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Moreover, that statement right there just shows you're not thinking about this the right way. YES, for a different coat of paint, people are willing to pay hundreds, thousands more for a ball python morph. It's supply and demand whether you like it or not.

Not trying to pick on you, just hoping to shed a little light on this for you.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

It comes a point where people no longer do this for the love of an animal. They do it purely for the money and don't care about the animals health, safety, or well being. All they can think about is "Whats the next trick I can go for to fatten my pocket book"? It's really quite a shame honestly.

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Out of curiosity, is this your blanket perspective that covers anyone & everyone who works with morphs & morph combinations?

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Originally Posted by KLG

Out of curiosity, is this your blanket perspective that covers anyone & everyone who works with morphs & morph combinations?

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:bolt: :bow:

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Originally Posted by KLG

Out of curiosity, is this your blanket perspective that covers anyone & everyone who works with morphs & morph combinations?

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Great question Kara ... I can't wait to hear what the response will be.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

It comes a point where people no longer do this for the love of an animal. They do it purely for the money and don't care about the animals health, safety, or well being. All they can think about is "Whats the next trick I can go for to fatten my pocket book"? It's really quite a shame honestly.

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Like has been stated previously, yes, there are people like this. HOWEVER, any breeder worth mentioning does NOT fall into that category. Even if a snake from one of these breeders has a 5 digit price tag, there is probably a good reason for it. A.K.A. The snake symbolizes years of hard work and dedication that went into the morph, and the sheer need for funds to continue their work in the morph industry. Like it or not, morphs are the "flagship" model of the BP world and they serve their purpose very well. They draw attention to the breed as a whole. Sorta like the old school detriot muscle car mantra of "win on sunday, sell on monday". The muscle cars sure weren't the only cars the detriot companies produced, however they brought notability to the company's other products. People see morphs and go "WOW, that's amazing", and a majority of the time "settle" for a "normal" which they can afford, which is perfectly fine.

These threads are great!!!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

This sounds like you want a morph but can't bring yourself to pay more than the normal price for them. Look at it this way.
Yea but you can get a $99.00 paint job at the local chop shop or you can get a 5000.00 paint job at the House of Kolor. Same car different paint job. Looks different, stands out yea it same drives the same but you can't buy a car with a house of Color Kolor spray job for the same price as a local spray job now can you. It has to do with the amount of work required to achieve that paint job that makes it special. Same with morphs yea its just a ball python with a different paint job but its a paint job that took years to achieve.

If you don't like morphs because they cost to much. Thats cool 100% totally understand. But I don't see the point in complaining cause some people don't have a problem paying hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands for a morph.

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It's not that I can't bring myself to forking over the money. I just cannot afford to fork over that money. I don't have that "Disposable income" that others might have the luxury of having. I don't live in the lap of luxury and don't have all this funding that some might have. I'll admit I make less then 40k a year and have a mortgage and a vehicle loan. So thats eats a good percentage of my income.

I save lives every day working on an ambulance. I also am a volunteer fire fighter in Western New York. In March of 2006 a building for a reptile organization in my fire district called R.A.R.E (http://rarerehab.org/) went up in flames. I was one of the responding firemen that was responsible for pulling out as many reptiles as I could from a smoke and fire filled basement. I pulled out Tegus, monitors, boas, pythons, iguanas, and dragons. Some in their cages and some out after the intense heat melted the cage or shattered the glass. Even though I saved alot of animals there were alot lost. Reason was I was one of the only ones that was not afraid of the type of animals there.

So I don't want to hear I don't deserve to own or not entitled to own an exotic or morph because I don't have the disposible income as others. Remember I am a volunteer, I do not get paid for being a firefighter. I did this for free and at my own risk. They always train us to not enter the scene unless it is safe. Most would consider animals of this nature to be unsafe. I made the decision it was safe and proceeded at my own, risking my own life.

Let me ask you breeders and sellers on here and see what kind of answer I get.... If I or someone else came up to you and you have a morph going for several hundred dollars and someone really wanted it, loved everything about it, the colors, the patterns, the flames, but all that could be afforded was like $80-$100, would you make the deal or tell them Thats too bad, so sorry?

Also to breeder and pet store owners let me ask you this as well. If your place were to ever have the unfortunate tragedy of catching fire what would you want and expect your local fire department to do? Would you want them to rescue as many animals in the place they can?

To the person that asked if this is my blanket perspective. Honestly I have only been involved with BP's since late june. Thats when I got my first BP as a late birthday gift. Went to my first herp show this past sunday. So I am still too new to this to come to a conclusion. But based on the answer to my question above I could start forming my very own opinion on that.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

So I don't want to hear I don't deserve to own or not entitled to own an exotic or morph because I don't have the disposible income as others. Remember I am a volunteer, I do not get paid for being a firefighter. I did this for free and at my own risk. They always train us to not enter the scene unless it is safe. Most would consider animals of this nature to be unsafe. I made the decision it was safe and proceeded at my own, risking my own life.

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While I have the utmost respect for emergency service workers and other public servants, it rubs me the wrong way for you to justify your deserving of a luxury item just because of your public service. We live in an economy where those that put the most on the line are compensated disproportionately less than those who put less, and while that is unfortunate, welcome to the real world.

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

Let me ask you breeders and sellers on here and see what kind of answer I get.... If I or someone else came up to you and you have a morph going for several hundred dollars and someone really wanted it, loved everything about it, the colors, the patterns, the flames, but all that could be afforded was like $80-$100, would you make the deal or tell them Thats too bad, so sorry?

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While I don't think that many breeders would give rare snakes away for a small fraction of what they are worth just because that's all you can afford by running into burning buildings for a living, I do think that there are a LOT of breeders out there that would work with you to get what you want and be fair to both sides - remember, that breeder has a livelihood too - is it fair for them to take a hit because you feel you are entitled to a special deal?

Wow, so this is an incredibly interesting thread. I always found it strange that there were people out there that honestly had something against breeding two color mutations together...


Here's my shake on things: I think people are doing to the BP that they have done to dogs and cats. Dogs started out as wolves, right? Breed a couple wolves together because you like their colors, breed a couple together because they're smaller... and somewhere down the road you end up with a German Shepard and a Chihuahua.

While we're a long way away from the Chihuahua Ball Python, we are seeing the beginnings of creating a new everyday "household" pet. We are breeding animals that---let's face it---will not survive without human intervention. Put a normal BP back into the bush and he might make 10-20 years, if he's lucky. Put a BEL out there... he's a raptor sandwich on day two (same goes for the Chihuahua, actually, lol).

Someday, it's going to be normal for someone to have a BEL sitting in a tank in their living room. But I still wouldn't expect to pay $50 for it... you wouldn't pay $50 for a purebred German Shepard, would you??? (Who knows? Maybe the normal BP will take the way of the wolf... people will still keep them, but it will be a pretty select group of people :D )

Does this make any sense... it's at the end of my work day and my brain's a little fuzzy.......

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Originally Posted by Whodinidunit

So I don't want to hear I don't deserve to own or not entitled to own an exotic or morph because I don't have the disposable income as others.

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I never said you didn't deserve one. But most breeders run a business and it would be pointless to cut their prices buy hundreds for everybody that thought their job denoted it.

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Let me ask you breeders and sellers on here and see what kind of answer I get.... If I or someone else came up to you and you have a morph going for several hundred dollars and someone really wanted it, loved everything about it, the colors, the patterns, the flames, but all that could be afforded was like $80-$100, would you make the deal or tell them Thats too bad, so sorry?

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I run a business just like a car dealership or wal-mart so my answer to that person would be I can't do that for that price. However I can set you up with a payment plan that will work for your budget. Some wiggle room is ok but 80-100 bucks for a morph maybe pastels next year but I don't see that for anything anytime soon

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Also to breeder and pet store owners let me ask you this as well. If your place were to ever have the unfortunate tragedy of catching fire what would you want and expect your local fire department to do? Would you want them to rescue as many animals in the place they can?

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I would hope they would do their jobs. But I fail to see how this relates to the prices breeders charge for morphs. Unless your trying to make some correlation between your volunteer and "deserving" an expensive morph.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Wow, so this is an incredibly interesting thread. I always found it strange that there were people out there that honestly had something against breeding two color mutations together...


Here's my shake on things: I think people are doing to the BP that they have done to dogs and cats. Dogs started out as wolves, right? Breed a couple wolves together because you like their colors, breed a couple together because they're smaller... and somewhere down the road you end up with a German Shepard and a Chihuahua.

While we're a long way away from the Chihuahua Ball Python, we are seeing the beginnings of creating a new everyday "household" pet. We are breeding animals that---let's face it---will not survive without human intervention. Put a normal BP back into the bush and he might make 10-20 years, if he's lucky. Put a BEL out there... he's a raptor sandwich on day two (same goes for the Chihuahua, actually, lol).

Someday, it's going to be normal for someone to have a BEL sitting in a tank in their living room. But I still wouldn't expect to pay $50 for it... you wouldn't pay $50 for a purebred German Shepard, would you??? (Who knows? Maybe the normal BP will take the way of the wolf... people will still keep them, but it will be a pretty select group of people :D )

Does this make any sense... it's at the end of my work day and my brain's a little fuzzy.......

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While you have good points, I think your comparison looses strength when you begin to compare a domesticated animal with a wild animal. Dogs were domesticated over the course of tens of THOUSANDS of years and the breeds we have today are the result of human intervention, in breeding these dogs to do certain tasks, for looks, etc...

I guess the question you are posing is, are we 'domesticating' ball pythons through the selective breeding for color and pattern mutations?

I think the answer to that question would be "no," but I could be wrong...ask again in 10,000 years and see what captive ball pythons look like then. ;)

Not saying it's going to happen overnight... not at all (guess I shoulda said someday, a thousand years down the road :) )


But I do think this is how domestication begins... breeding for traits that are desirable to the human eye and mind.

Everything started out as a wild animal. BPs can still be considered as such... but I don't think that will be the case a ways down the road (and I am talking large scale here... not in 20 years :P )

Affording one when you can is and can be an option. If you want to, save up!

No one NOT going to sell you one due to what you do.

Prices are what they are due to the availability and the demand for them as they are amazing and beautiful creatures.

I also work in the community in several different ventures, but when I want something, I make it a goal to acheive it.

Nothing should stop anyone from achieving their goals, no matter how big or small.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

While we're a long way away from the Chihuahua Ball Python.....

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May this forever be true. :please:


dr del

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I run a business just like a car dealership or wal-mart so my answer to that person would be I can't do that for that price. However I can set you up with a payment plan that will work for your budget. Some wiggle room is ok but 80-100 bucks for a morph maybe pastels next year but I don't see that for anything anytime soon

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Thats how I would do it too. I am 15 years old, and have a super hard time making money for a normal, let alone a morph, so I feel your pain.

But I love the fact that morphs are so excpencive, because it gives me something to set a goal for. Save up for, etc. Understand?

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Originally Posted by stangs13

But I love the fact that morphs are so excpencive, because it gives me something to set a goal for. Save up for, etc. Understand?

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Which brings up another interesting question: if morphs weren't so expensive, would they still be in such high demand?

If it's easily attainable, it's not necessarily desirable anymore :)

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Which brings up another interesting question: if morphs weren't so expensive, would they still be in such high demand?

If it's easily attainable, it's not necessarily desirable anymore :)

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No, they arn't exspencive though, just in high demand, so people raise the priceto make money from them,but the money goes back into the snakes!! So its all used in one way or the other, for snakes.:D

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

While you have good points, I think your comparison looses strength when you begin to compare a domesticated animal with a wild animal. Dogs were domesticated over the course of tens of THOUSANDS of years and the breeds we have today are the result of human intervention, in breeding these dogs to do certain tasks, for looks, etc...

I guess the question you are posing is, are we 'domesticating' ball pythons through the selective breeding for color and pattern mutations?

I think the answer to that question would be "no," but I could be wrong...ask again in 10,000 years and see what captive ball pythons look like then. ;)

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Actually, it would be your argument that loses strength. To say that dogs are "domesticated" and snakes are "wild" is, indeed, correct, it is also incorrect as well. *Both* are "wild* because *both* are "instinctual" animals. A dog, left to its own devices will do what it would instinctively do, hunt, dig, chase, bite, growl, fight, etc. as will a snake. Can a snake be "domesticated" in the same fashion as a dog, of course not, they are two entirely different creatures with different brains but instinct is instinct and, at the risk of probably getting into semantics, dogs are only as "domesticated", IE "tame" as we, their handlers, teach them to be. The same holds true with snakes, just to a lesser degree.

I want another mastiff as well as a doberman but I *won't* get them from BYBs and thus, each will cost me an average of $2000 to $3000 to acquire one from a reputable breeder. Is that too much? Not in my opinion because, like snake morphs, I'm paying for "quality" not "quantity".

Heck, I would LOVE to have a spider but I don't have the $$$ to realistically spend on one right now and I might never opt to set the money aside to get one (don't tell Aleesha that, she'll come down here and kick my butt :D), but it's the point. If you want Gucci, you're going to pay for it, if you want Wal-Mart, you're still going to pay for it. They're both hand bags; the difference is quality in creation, quantity created (assembly line vs. hand crafted) as well as design, thus, the price goes up.

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I would hope they would do their jobs. But I fail to see how this relates to the prices breeders charge for morphs. Unless your trying to make some correlation between your volunteer and "deserving" an expensive morph.

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I am not trying to make some correlation of my volunteer and deserving a morph. Reason being i'm not a one man band. I wasn't the only one there saving the animals or the building. But when the end of the day was over at that fire, I don't even recall us getting a "Thank You" from the owner of that place. Even with the building being considered a "Save". Also I started complaining that prices were way to high well before I brought in the fact I am a volunteer fire fighter. I know it is getting off topic, but as you said you would hope they would do thier jobs. As I mentioned in the last post the way we are trained is our safety comes first. if it is considered to dangerous we are to pull out and just try to contain it.

If we are going in a pulling animals out and have no clue what is there, then we are outside and above our jobs. We are risking our self even higher and with disregard of our own safety. What if there were Hot's in the building and I went to grab one and got bit and was able to pierce the turn out gear. then now I'm battling and will need someone to save me. So rescuing the animals is viewed as an ill advised risk but is not our job or duty. But to some it is a risk some are willing to take. And yes when someone does go above and beyond like that it is nice to recieve acknowledgement and recognition. Not saying we want free stuff. But a least a thank you and to show you appreciated our efforts is nice.

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While I have the utmost respect for emergency service workers and other public servants, it rubs me the wrong way for you to justify your deserving of a luxury item just because of your public service. We live in an economy where those that put the most on the line are compensated disproportionately less than those who put less, and while that is unfortunate, welcome to the real world.

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What rubs me the wrong way is you assuming that I am trying to use my status as a means for a discount or freebie. As someone said to me in a post prior "You're reading into this too deeply". Read above to what I just said.

Also what rubs me the wrong way from experience is those that can live in luxury are also the ones who are the last to lift a finger to help out a person. At least in my area those that have money always seem stuck up like they are better then the next person. Like they are gods gift to the world and you must bow to them. They are the type of person that if someone dropped right in front of them they would even attempt anything because heaven forbid they get thier hands dirty. But if they ever need help then you are either not quick enough or good enough for them.

Does living a life in luxury give anyone the right to be a snob, stuck up, and not be polite or show any manners?

When we do save a house or a life, it is always the ones that can barely float. The ones that can barely afford food on thier table for thier family that sends us not only a thank you but also is willing to donate money, usually more then they can afford, to our company as a token of thier appreciation. While the ones that are living life on a silver platter we see nothing from them. usually if we do see anything it's nothing but a complaint like you got my rugs dirty now pay for them or you trampled my flowers, forgetting we just brought back to life thier spouse or kid.

As I mentioned earlier what I do is volunteer. We are a volunteer company. A not for profit organization. Over 80% of the fire departments in North America are volunteer. The members do not get any money. We do not get a paycheck of any sort. Any taxes paid by the residents of a community does not go to the members (company). All they go to is district, which provides us with the equipment, tools, and gear we use to help us provide the service.

Every year the company side (members) run a fund drive to help make money for the company, for the members. the money raised helps us buy food for the hall and it's members so we can rehab after a long hard fire. But it also mostly goes back into the community when we have open houses, easter egg hunts, halloween for the kids, and any other community events we throw throughout the year for the community. You would probably be surprised to know that we get squat from most of the businesses in our district. Even the ones that on a regular basis we are continuously woken up at 3 or 4 in the morning to respond to thier faulty fire alarm going off. And for the well to do ones, when we attempt to seek a donation they threaten us and insist we leave and get off thier property.Just something to think about for all those who live and are protected by a volunteer service. Like I was once told, Treat others the way you expect to be treated.

Again I know this is way off the topic header but i'm just frustrated and aggravated.

I applaud and thank you for you work in the community. We need people like you in this country to show future generations that service has its own reward. I also can feel your frustration with the attitude some people have taken.

I am interested to see how things will be down the road with regards to morph breeding. People will definately be out for quality morphs as opposed to just having a low-quality one; entry-level hobbyists will be around to buy the lower-priced ones (like browning-out Pastels for example.)

I love morphs :carrot:

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Originally Posted by Shadowspider

Actually, it would be your argument that loses strength. To say that dogs are "domesticated" and snakes are "wild" is, indeed, correct, it is also incorrect as well. *Both* are "wild* because *both* are "instinctual" animals. A dog, left to its own devices will do what it would instinctively do, hunt, dig, chase, bite, growl, fight, etc. as will a snake. Can a snake be "domesticated" in the same fashion as a dog, of course not, they are two entirely different creatures with different brains but instinct is instinct and, at the risk of probably getting into semantics, dogs are only as "domesticated", IE "tame" as we, their handlers, teach them to be. The same holds true with snakes, just to a lesser degree.

I want another mastiff as well as a doberman but I *won't* get them from BYBs and thus, each will cost me an average of $2000 to $3000 to acquire one from a reputable breeder. Is that too much? Not in my opinion because, like snake morphs, I'm paying for "quality" not "quantity".

Heck, I would LOVE to have a spider but I don't have the $$$ to realistically spend on one right now and I might never opt to set the money aside to get one (don't tell Aleesha that, she'll come down here and kick my butt :D), but it's the point. If you want Gucci, you're going to pay for it, if you want Wal-Mart, you're still going to pay for it. They're both hand bags; the difference is quality in creation, quantity created (assembly line vs. hand crafted) as well as design, thus, the price goes up.

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Actually brad has a pretty valid point. Snakes and dogs are NOT on a level playing field when it comes to domestication. To domesticate means to make dependable or trainable. For all intents and purposes, cats have NEVER been domesticated in their thousands of years of living side-by-side with humans. Have you ever heard of a truly "trained" cat? Other than, here's the litter box? Even modern house cats have the ability to leave their owners home and under most circumstances, survive on it's own (until animal control gets involved). You release a family dog, and that dog will likely try to find human companionship somewhere, because humans = food. Not to mention, humans have used/trained dogs for thousands of years for specific purposes.


The likelihood of a snake ever appreciating it's owner is slim to none.

I don't believe I ever mentioned domestication in my first post. I was simply trying to make a point that humans are engineering BPs the same way they have engineered dogs and cats down through the ages... they breed for color, size, temperament, etc.


People breed for something that is pleasing to them, something that they will be proud to have in their home. Someday, I believe the most pleasing morphs will be very commonplace in people's homes.

But, should they become common place, I don't expect their prices will go down to the price of a normal. Again, you wouldn't pay $30 for a pure bred German Shepard. (dogs are just used as a reference... perhaps a bad comparison, but not meant to be focused on).

I think one thing that is missing is that many breeders invest large amounts of $ in certain morphs. This is not extra disposable income in most cases. if you were opening a restaurant or me i'm a contractor you would invest tens of thousands of $ to get your business off the ground. Then you would need to make some kind of profit to survive and payback loans many new business owners take out to get started.
Now take BP morphs for example, some breeders I know spent $15,000 investing in a lesser now the price has dropped to $1,200 more or less. This is not someone who is making a killing here but just trying to recoup his investment in a market like all markets that is based on supply and demand. Of course there are going to be seedy people that don't give a crap about animals just $, but many are people that have a great passion for these animals and have decided to invest in their passion. i am not going to name good and bad breeders because their reputations proceed them. But lumping them all into $ hungry make a buck rip off artists is not true.

If someone doesn't understand how businesses are run then i reccomend they don't start one. What upsets me is I hear people knock business owners like myself everyday for their pricing when they have no idea what it costs in insurance, payroll taxes, office rent, materials, buying equipment, maintaining equipment, gas, heat, trying to get paid etc.. everyday! just to keep the doors open. If you look just at the price of the product itself it's like looking at an iceberg, most of it is underwater you only see the tip of the iceberg. Prices come from many variables not just what you want them to come from.


If you think morphs are expensive now you should have seen them 3-5 years ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

Of course there are going to be seedy people that don't give a crap about animals just $, but many are people that have a great passion for these animals and have decided to invest in their passion [...] lumping them all into $ hungry make a buck rip off artists is not true.

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And that's what it's all about, right there.

Absolutely agreed, Raul.