Help! New BP Strikes Frequently

I agree that using UTH's properly is far from reckless but the rest of your point is based on a completely false premise - that there is only one type/manufacturer and that they all perform identically.

I didn't make that claim. I only know of the details of the one I am using - the Zoo-med.

PS, I'm not condeming the species - and to suggest I am - well that is compelte daft. I'm suggesting that the literature should be stronger as to the possibility that some can consistently be 'agressive'. Additionally - I never based this on only mine BP, but on further research of others who have owned them.

Someone agreed that it is not reckless to use the heat pads and I thank them for posting. they also posted on using a r-stat - if I may add a few comments on that.

On the post regarding spending $3 for a r-stat to get the temps right - well, I monitored the heat pad for quite some time in several spots using both a heat gun and a digital probe. The pad itself is about 102 degrees - however the base of the tank is 1/4 glass with a 1/4 inch plexi-glass liner then covered with a substrate. I measured w/o the substrate and with the substrate - both read in the low eighties a little less on the substrate. I monitored these for about 2 weeks before ordering the BP.

It all depends how these are uses as to whether or not a r-stat is needed - clearly if you are using a tub then the snake is going to be much less isolated from the element itself. But a word of caution on dimmers used as a power consuming regulator - they use a process called half-wave rectification to dim bulbs (effectively removing part of the sine wave in an alternating current) - this is horribly unpredictable and prone to power spikes during failures as a result of quick discharges or failures of the silicon controlled rectifier circuitry used to regulate the sine wave.

However, recall that the zoo med pads are almost self protected as spikes of significant size and duration will burnout the thin nichrome elements.

Anyway - I think you are better off adjusting the distance then using a dimmer or dump a solid $50 and get a true rheostat

Hi,


Agreed - you merely used this knowledge of one specific product within a whole range of products to tell us we were talking nonsense when we stated UTH's needed regulation.

We weren't.

If you had said "the specific UTH (make,model,year of manufacture) I own does not need regulation" we'd still try to explain to you the reasons why it might be a good idea but would have had less worry about other people reading this thread, assuming it applied to theirs as well, and burning the bejeesus out of their poor snake.


dr del

dr. del,

I have continually posted in this thread that this all boils :-) down to due diligence which requires measuring the behavior of the product, using it correctly, and understanding what it does and how it does it.

It is not me who has been unclear - it has been many others who have twisted my posts and other's posts and/or inferred where no such inferrence was made.

But Thank you very much for trying to correct my errant behavior it is a noble cause.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

PS, I'm not condeming the species - and to suggest I am - well that is compelte daft. I'm suggesting that the literature should be stronger as to the possibility that some can consistently be 'agressive'. Additionally - I never based this on only mine BP, but on further research of others who have owned them.

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Hi,

To be honest any book that felt that needed to be said would probably start with "this book is best read with eyes open". Some things are so basic I feel stating them aloud is robbing darwinism of the right of expression. Sorry that's just how I feel about it.

Your saying the basic description of the species behaviour should have a sidebar explaining it fits into the same pattern as every other living animal on earth? It doesn't need to be stronger the reader needs to be more aware.

Intresting information on the dimmer though - over here everything I have seen sold as dimmers in the diy stores are rheostats. I guess it never occured to me that over there was any different.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

dr. del,

I have continually posted in this thread that this all boils :-) down to due diligence which requires measuring the behavior of the product, using it correctly, and understanding what it does and how it does it.

It is not me who has been unclear - it has been many others who have twisted my posts and other's posts and/or inferred where no such inferrence was made.

But Thank you very much for trying to correct my errant behavior it is a noble cause.

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Lol,

Fair enough,

It's a problem using blanket terms in a specifics laden argument really.:)

As bad as it feels to be on the end of one of these threads (and I've been there myself on several occaisons :D ) most of the time it boils down to misunderstandings of both motives and arguments.

It's not like any of the participants wants to hurt the snakes in question or anything - quite the opposite in fact.

Hope everything works out for you - just don't tell anyone they don't need thermostats without doing the same research on their UTH that you did on yours.:P


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Well, now I'm confused - much of the literature I've read indicates 75-80 is fine for the evening and 80-90 is ok for the day. In fact the book 'guide to owning a python':

"...77 deg to 88 deg during the day, reduced to 68-75 during the evening."

There is no way these heatpads could burn the BP - I have pressed my hand tightly against them for a few minutes, after they were on for the whole day (prior to getting my BP) and they feel mildly warm - that's about it.

I have 3 hides in the tank, but he seems to only use one of them - I think I may have to replace the others with smaller hides.

The hallogens provide a basking area as they only light half the tank and the red's light/heat the other half during the evening.

The heatpads are not on a thermostat and I used a probe on them and the temp of the floor only registers about 82.

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If you use an undertank heater, get a thermostat. I recently had the bottom of Kobi's tank fracture because the UTH got too hot. It had always been fine before, I could keep my hand on it and it didn't hurt, but then one evening I heard a loud POP and went over to her tank, and it felt like a hot frying pan! For some strange reason, the UTH malfunctioned and got so hot it cracked the glass. If I had had it on a thermo, even with the malfunction it probably wouldnt have gotten that hot. Just an FYI IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheMadNucleus

Someone agreed that it is not reckless to use the heat pads and I thank them for posting. they also posted on using a r-stat - if I may add a few comments on that.

On the post regarding spending $3 for a r-stat to get the temps right - well, I monitored the heat pad for quite some time in several spots using both a heat gun and a digital probe. The pad itself is about 102 degrees - however the base of the tank is 1/4 glass with a 1/4 inch plexi-glass liner then covered with a substrate. I measured w/o the substrate and with the substrate - both read in the low eighties a little less on the substrate. I monitored these for about 2 weeks before ordering the BP. Ok, so I guess you don't really have any issues with burnning, but it sounds like you might need a UTH that will make it warmer than low 80's. Then in that case you would need to regulate it with a t-stat/r-stat.

It all depends how these are uses as to whether or not a r-stat is needed - clearly if you are using a tub then the snake is going to be much less isolated from the element itself. But a word of caution on dimmers used as a power consuming regulator - they use a process called half-wave rectification to dim bulbs (effectively removing part of the sine wave in an alternating current) - this is horribly unpredictable and prone to power spikes during failures as a result of quick discharges or failures of the silicon controlled rectifier circuitry used to regulate the sine wave. Sure any thing can fail but thats why I check on my snakes several times a day. You seem like you know everything but yet you are the one that does not have your snakes set up as the recommended standard. :confused:

However, recall that the zoo med pads are almost self protected as spikes of significant size and duration will burnout the thin nichrome elements.

Anyway - I think you are better off adjusting the distance then using a dimmer or dump a solid $50 and get a true rheostat AGAIN you are the one that seems to need to make adjustments to your set up to achieve appropriate temperatures. As my temps are always where they are supposed to be. Good Luck...

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

We ended up covering the UTH with a ceramic casserole dish that is under the CHE anyway to keep our humidity from dropping so much. So he'll get warmer water

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Id keep an eye on that the warm water. Might not be to big of a thing. If cleaned everyday or so. Can get algae and all kinds of bacteria from the water being heated by the UTH.

To address the aggressive/biting nature and a ball python's suitability as a "pet". Speaking from our experience with 18 of them over the past few years I can only say this. I've been bitten once. That snake was one we were working with, was highly stressed, highly defensive and an adult that had been dumped in a local, privately owned pet store so there was no background data on her life prior to the day we brought her home. So that's one bite, over time and with handling a good number of snakes of various ages under variable conditions.

Now we've had dogs that as puppies were quite prone to nipping, cats that were quick to scratch if they were in the mood for it. Our society however doesn't exclude either species as "excellent pets". Snakes are excellent pets for the right owner, much as a dog or cat is for a committed owner that has their welfare at heart.

Btw, that big, very hard to handle adult is now easily handled with supervision by our 6 year old child. She's over 3,000 grams now and laid back as they come but even with that being said, we never forget for a minute she's a snake, with all the instincts of one and tailor our interactions with her based on that. To do anything else is a disservice to the snake and a bit silly on our part.

http://www.zoomed.com/html/reptitherm_manual.pdf
No where does Zoomed say in their manual that you should make the distance between the cage and pad greater if you want less heat to come through. In fact they say to put down repti carpet first directly over the pad, and then substrate. They also say that if the temperature in your house gets over 80*, to use a thermostat or rheostat. They say it a few times actually.

As to the crack in the bottom of the tank, they claim it is a stress crack, caused by liquid on the glass directly over the heat pad. They say either to side mount the pad, or to again use repti carpet or some sort of substrate that absorbs water quickly.

They also say that you should use one of their substrates, the repti bark, the repti carpet or the repti sand. If you use a light weight substrate, use repticarpet over the heater to avoid the snake from pushing it aside and laying directly on the glass, resulting in possible burns.

I did a quick google search and have found different sites talking about the zoo med UTH, and what they have to say about it:
http://www.zoomed.com/html/uth_helpful_hints.php
Under Tank Heater
Helpful Hints



1. The first thing to do when applying a U.T.H. is to read the instruction booklet!!!
2. A Reptitherm U.T.H. will heat the inside (ambient) air temperature of your terrarium a full 5°-10°F. warmer than the outside air temperature. If you need to increase your terrarium temperatures more than this, you can do one or more of the following:

Cover 2/3 of the screen top of your terrarium.

Add an additional overhead heat source such as a Basking Spot, Infrared Heat Lamp or Ceramic Heat Emitter.
3. We make a really neat Reptitherm Mini for those plastic "keeper" terrariums! Always put the heater on the back or side of these cages.
4. If you use loose substrate or your animal likes to dig, let us suggest placing a layer of Zoo Med Repti Cage Carpet under your bedding or place U.T.H. on the outside back wall...

http://www.petco.com/product/6353/Zo...k-Heaters.aspx
Zoo Med Repti-Therm UTH Under Tank Heaters


Under tank heaters designed to heat the ambient air temperature of your terrarium an average of five to 10 degrees (F) warmer than room temperature. Solid state nichrome heating elements with UL/CSA approved power cords.

http://www.reptilesupply.com/product...roducts_id=459
...Helpful Hints:

* For Terrarium use only. Not for aquariums.
* For indoor use only
* Always use the enclosed rubber feet to slightly elevate your terrarium allowing excess bottom heat to escape and avoid damaging the powercord.
* Placing terrariums with an under tank heater on household furniture may cause furniture's finish to discolor. ZooMed Labs Inc., does nto guarantee against furniture finish discoloration. ZooMed recommends placing terrrariums on stands designed for use with terrariums.
* For use on glass terrariums only. Do not use on wood, plastic, acrylic or any other type of terrarium except those made of glass. (Only exception is the Repti Therm RH-7 Mini Heater can be used on plastic terrariums).
* One adhesive side "sticks" directly to your terrarium for optimum heat transfer. Optional mounting on bottom or side of your terrarium (runner feet enclosed for bottom mounting).
* Can be used with a thermostat and/or in conjunction with an additional heat source for higher temperature species. Which would include Ball Pythons.
* Full one year warranty.

Guarantee: ZooMed guarantees the materials and workmanship of the Repti Therm U.T.H. for a period of 1 year from date of purchase. If heater should fail during this time, simply box and mail postpaid back to the address below. Please include a copy of your receipt. No other guarantees apply, whether expressed or implied...

http://www.calzoo.com/pdf/curlytail.pdf
...Use a Zoo Med REPTITHERM UNDER TANK HEATER (U.T.H.) on one end of the tank. Leave it on 24 hours a day...
...For easy heat control use a Zoo Med REPTI-TEMP RHEOSTAT in conjunctions with the U.T.H...

http://exoticpets.about.com/od/herpr...gradient_6.htm
For tropical or basking species that need higher temperatures, these function best as a secondary (perhaps 24 hour) heat source, used in conjunction with an overhead heat source for basking. They can also be used with a thermostat or rheostat.

http://www.redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15448
Default Re: Zoo Med Repti Therm uth
...I have one, and its alright... It's what the pet store sold me when I first got my boa. If I knew then what I know now I would have gotten something else. The ZooMed uth works well, but it runs way too hot for a boa, so you need something to control its maximum temp. I use a $12 rheostat I bought at Home Depot along with a temp gun to keep the temps just right. If you don't get a rheostat you will need a very thick layer of substrate to lower the temps enough so your boa doesn't burn itself. Good luck...

...Yeah deffinatly need something to control the temps. I have a zoo med uth that gets up to 116 deg. Way to hot.

...Just a note - if you use loose substrate that they can burrow in then you need to measure temps underneath the substrate.

...You should never run any heat device without some form of control on it - BigAppleHerp.com have a perfectly serviceable t/stats for 32 bucks - worth every penny when you think that it reacts and adjusts whatever your room temp is.

...I have 4 of them and have been very happy with the performance of these units ;D
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Just from what I've read through. I've read a lot of reviews saying that they work great, and a lot saying they get too hot.

Most recommend a layer of carpet between the glass and the animal to avoid burns. Which I believe was in this forums Glass tank setup thread.
Most recommend for a tropical species to use the UTH as a secondary source of heat in a glass enclosure, and to achieve higher temps, to use a rheostat or thermostat in conjunction.
The makers also say to use it on the side as a secondary source of heat for higher temp species, to avoid burns and stress cracks when you use a lightweight substrate.|
This UTH has only ever been described as raising the temperature a full 5-10 degrees higher than the ambient room temperature. A ball python needs a tropical thermal gradient, and it appears that when this is used in conjunction with a primary overhead heat source, it will keep the cool end up to temp.
To achieve higher temperatures, use a thermostat or rheostat in conjunction with a ceramic heat emitter, or a bulb.

i feel bad for the snake he's got...

I have a ZooMed, but recently upgraded to FlexWatt. When I was getting the temps right for my babies before I ordered them, the ZooMed pad spikes up to 110, and this is with substrate and the plastic between the pad and the thermometer. They are supposed to shutdown at 100. (My dh, an EE, pointed out that it had crap for safety features when he checked it out.)

Maybe your pad will never flare up and your snake will never get hurt, but it doesn't hurt to spend a couple bucks to guard against something which has happened enough that people are concerned about it.

I just think of it as a bit of extra personality!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

As to the crack in the bottom of the tank, they claim it is a stress crack, caused by liquid on the glass directly over the heat pad. They say either to side mount the pad, or to again use repti carpet or some sort of substrate that absorbs water quickly.

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As I said before, it was a malfunction, not a stress crack due to moisture. We had some bad weather, and our electricity had flickered a bit. about 10 minutes later I heard the pop.

Just pointing out what "they" as in the manufacturer says.

Gotcha. The point is, if I had had it on an thermo, it wouldn't have happened.

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Originally Posted by ama1997

Id keep an eye on that the warm water. Might not be to big of a thing. If cleaned everyday or so. Can get algae and all kinds of bacteria from the water being heated by the UTH.

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Thanks. We change his water every day, rinsing out his water bowl. When I found the poop in his water, the dish got scrubbed and washed with bleach, then rinsed again and dried before refilling and replacing it. I have since turned off the CHE until we get a rheostat for the CHE since it's rather warm in there 95/86 usually!