the snake/human relationship

and, seriously, if you believe in evolution you're already half way there. You've already acknowledged that all creatures came from a common starting point and are, therefore, related in structure. So, you point is that you are 100% sure that, even though our brains evolved from simpler animals, that everything that we are capable of is totally unique and animals have none of it?

you're oversimplifying a simple biological theory into senseless romanticized drivel, although we may all share a common ancestor, human brains have evolved much further than animal brains due to our social structure, and environmental factors beginning at the dawn of man. As came such things as standing upright and language. So sure, we all came from the same place, but no, we're not now all the same.

and yes, corvids and dolphins can show problem solving thought, but that is unique to very few of the non human creatures and certainly not seen in snakes or cats. Don't get me wrong I love my snakes, and I love my kitties, but we're not the same, we have significant differences between us. Which is why if I ask my cat what it wants for breakfast I probably won't get a very intelligible spoken answer.

so I'm not saying we're all the same. I'm just saying that, like other parts of anatomy, I think we share common mental patterns. Almost everything that walks can get good and pissed off, for example. So, if you imagine the ability to "like" something as a limb then I would say snakes have a very tiny one and we have a very big and strong one. Do I think my snake can love me? No. But I think, in some real primitive way, he likes me.

I find your thinking to be flawed. Snakes are not social creatures so this affinity you want it to feel towards you in unfounded. I can agree that a dog will have some feeling for you since it is a pack animal, even a cat you can stretch it, but they more just accept the fact that you feed and protect them. But your snake may come to recognize you, but not because of who you are. It's because you have become a familiar landmark in their environment, they realize when the cage opens, you'll be there same as always. So sure, maybe it recognizes you, but if so it's as a feature of its captive environment with which to guide itself by and not a friend.

ok but it may have some simple positive associations with your smell. Does that sound possible? I think it is and I would bet that is probably all that liking something is if you're a snake.

What I left out of my last point was that maybe a snake's ability to "like" something is tiny and feeble compared to ours. My main point is that, despite the huge difference in "size", they are both there. And so, I think that automatically rejecting any anthropomorphic impressions of our pets as inaccurate is not right. I do agree there's big room for error but I don't agree that its all a "romantic fantasy" as you put it.

To be honest, in trying to compromise, I can still find fault in this. Because some snakes really just never 'tame' down. So what is your idea on that one?



I'd have to say snakes have the ability to learn things that may be useful to them, such as when feeding time is, where heat is, but this is more instinctual learning and environmental cues, and not the higher learning you refer to. I think it's... human brains have the special adaptation of the frontal lobe, and then other mammals and birds have cerebral hemispheres, while snakes have none of these (don't quote me on this but I think this is the case). This leaves them with a limited capacity, and like I said this would be mostly instinctual, mostly things to keep them alive and procreating in the wild, things such as recognizing food or danger. There still is no room for liking something, besides what will keep it alive such as food and basking, in there.
Honestly I think you're ideas have become significantly less crazy sounding, and although I think that captivity is more of a dumbing down of a survival fight or flight instinct and less of a getting to know and like you, I do think it would be interesting to find out what exactly a snake can learn, meaning can it go beyond simple instinctual associations such as food=good, predators=bad.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

Honestly I think you're ideas have become significantly less crazy sounding,

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shhhh... I have a reputation to keep up.... :rolleye2:

I think snakes have alot more instinct and alot less reasoning capability than we do. Perhaps the strenght of influence of instinct varies from snake to snake. Say from "extremely strong" up to "overwhelmeing". You can see the same sort of variance in other animals and even people

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap. It also knows that thats its hide and probably has the desire to go back in there as well. I would then say that the snake doesn't "like" the situation. Then, your hand comes in, does some stuff, and suddenly the hide is all nice again. I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that the snake has some sort of positive association with that since it gets to go back into its hide. It will also most likely associate that with your smell. I think that's about all the "liking" they are capable of but I still consider it "liking".

Another part of my "theory" is that I think that people simply assume that what they have is automatically so special. Surely, the cognitive abilities are the best on the globe. But when it comes to emotions I'm not so sure. Anger is the easiest example here. And I'm sure cats and dogs can hate as well.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap.

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Tell that to my crew. They don't care if there's crap in there or not, they're going in. Lucky for them I check every day! ;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Tell that to my crew. They don't care if there's crap in there or not, they're going in. Lucky for them I check every day! ;)

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LOL Same here, my snake will wallow in it.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

shhhh... I have a reputation to keep up.... :rolleye2:

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Every time i see a post of yours, it seems like your trying so hard to justify the information you get from who knows where. What websites or biologist's do you get your info from? Most of the people that disagree with you on this forum have been doing this stuff for years man, and you come along and try and change the way bp's are done. Good job buddy :salute:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap. It also knows that thats its hide and probably has the desire to go back in there as well. I would then say that the snake doesn't "like" the situation. Then, your hand comes in, does some stuff, and suddenly the hide is all nice again. I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that the snake has some sort of positive association with that since it gets to go back into its hide. It will also most likely associate that with your smell. I think that's about all the "liking" they are capable of but I still consider it "liking".

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this is untrue. I have 2 corns who will poo in their hides and they go right back in there. I have an RTB that 'knows' what his water dish is yet he poo's in it all the time. so if he 'knows' it's his drinking dish why would he poo in it? and I have 6 bp's that will poo anywhere they feel and lay in it.

So that part of your "theory"...nah-ah.

Snakes don't like humans they tolerate humans. If you left the lids off your tanks they would be gone. So if they have such a 'connection' to their owner why would they choose to leave?

just sayin'

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

this is untrue. I have 2 corns who will poo in their hides and they go right back in there. I have an RTB that 'knows' what his water dish is yet he poo's in it all the time. so if he 'knows' it's his drinking dish why would he poo in it? and I have 6 bp's that will poo anywhere they feel and lay in it.

So that part of your "theory"...nah-ah.

Snakes don't like humans they tolerate humans. If you left the lids off your tanks they would be gone. So if they have such a 'connection' to their owner why would they choose to leave?

just sayin'

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You rock meme!! :rockon:

If I left my tubs open, every snake of mine would be gone. :) And slithering through poop seems to be one of their hobbies.

I was thinking about the potty-training thing.. I think that it is not something that snakes do consciously. Now with mammals, it is a sporadic thing in my experience, unless it is trained into an animal. I have two horses. One of them religiously poops/urinates along only one wall of her stall. It ias gotten so that i can leave all of the straw in her stall and just pick out the area where she poops.. the urine drains out into the grass behind the barn, the way it is set up. Now, my other mare will not only poop everywhere; she'll walk all around in it and spread it all over the stall. And she loves pooping into her water tub; maybe it is the satisfying "splash" that it makes? lol..
Both mares were kept in the same conditions all of their lives.. I have heard of people potty-training chickens, rabbits, and the like. I have never heard of a snake that will consistently poop in one place in its tank.. I would love to see video evidence of this, or see it in person, but I doubt it has ever happened.

so far mine has either gone outside of his hide or he vacates his hide if he goes inside. I've seen other posts to that effect. It prolly varies from snake to snake.

Anyway, my point wasn't really about potty training it was just to give an example of things we do for them that could register in their heads.

Its all just speculation and there's really no use in saying somebody is right or wrong since there is no way for us to really know what its like to be a snake. Maybe its true, maybe they just "tolerate" us. But what does that mean? How is saying that really different from saying they "like" or "dislike" us?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

so far mine has either gone outside of his hide or he vacates his hide if he goes inside. I've seen other posts to that effect. It prolly varies from snake to snake.

Anyway, my point wasn't really about potty training it was just to give an example of things we do for them that could register in their heads.

Its all just speculation and there's really no use in saying somebody is right or wrong since there is no way for us to really know what its like to be a snake. Maybe its true, maybe they just "tolerate" us. But what does that mean? How is saying that really different from saying they "like" or "dislike" us?

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Maybe they are just trying to escape their heavily scented area to avoid being detected by a predator.

Like and dislike....I like something for a reason and I dislike something for another reason; often these reasons are also opinions. I just don't think my snake can do that.

Wow, a lot of people have commented on this topic since I've been gone. A lot of interesting ideas and theories.

First off, I just wanted to say that my original topic was never a question of "do snakes love?" I only wanted to know if they recognized owners through a heat signature or, if not, through which means. I have to agree, after reading the arguments, that perhaps it is more smell than "sight" (heat). I forget who it was but someone said that if the tub smelled like mouse, and you stuck your hand in there, you'd probably get bitten. The snake wouldnt see the heat pattern and say "oh, that's mommy/daddy, not food." They'd smell mouse, register heat, and strike.

I suppose I'll re-evaluate my hypothesis then to say that snakes, as with most animals, recognize familiar surroundings through various senses. The strongest of these being "sight" and smell/taste.

However, while I'm here, I'll put in my thoughts on whether or not a snake can love. I'm on the boat that believes they do not. My opinion is that a snake merely sees us as part of its environment. It becomes accustomed to us cleaning, feeding, watering, etc. and thus when we hold it, it just assumes the ground is moving more than likely. -lol-

But, now that I think about it, all of this answers my question as to why my Harlett will always come to me over my sister or anyone else who might want to hold her. It's because that person does not smell or taste familiar. Perhaps they are also colder or warmer than me. But more than that, they are not part of Harlett's regular environment. She is "in unfamiliar territory" while on another person. Therefore, she returns to her space - me.

So, in true children's program fashion, lets reiterate what we've learned.

A- Snakes recognize their surroundings through multiple sense, not just their heat sensors.

B- A snake's owner is tolerated because they are part of the snake's regular environment.

C- A snake will return to said owner, because when it is away from the owner it is in unknown territory, and it recognizes (through its many senses) that person (its owner) as safe and familiar.

--> A+B=C <--

I feel like I've just had an epiphany. -lol- It's good to get a bunch of ideas together and then see how they interlock. Thanks for everyone who responded to my original post. It helped me realize a few things. ^_^

And, just because it's funny, here's a picture:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ashouse035.jpg
*please note, neither myself nor the car is actually for sale* ...Well, if you really wanted the car feel free to make an offer.

wow the OP returns?!?!?!


Well its anybody's guess I suppose. And to some extent is becomes a matter of word definition


For my part, I have noticed definate differences in behavior in my BP depending on who's holding it. Also, when he sits there for ages while I pet his neck or, like today, when he falls asleep staring right at me and coiled around my thumb, I have a hard time believing there is absolutely nothing there. In fact, its not even possible when you consider a WC snake would never do that. I might say my snake "likes" me, and somebody else might say I'm anthropomorphising and that my snake only "tolerates" me. But, what they rarely acknowledge is that the oft-used terms "tolerates" and "stresses" are no less subject to that very same argument. Apparently it is OK to say a snake "disklikes", "tolerates", or is "stressed" by something but its not OK to say it "likes" something. Why???

In some ways, it appears to be a game of semantics. What one person means whey they say a word such as "like" does not always mean what someone else might be thinking. I don't have any problems with someone suggesting their snake "likes" them because it appears to behave in a more secure and relaxed manner around them.

But not all this language boils down to personal opinion or semantic games. A word such as "tolerate" is not subjective. If a ball python is tolerating someone's attention, it shows by a relaxed attitude of either falling asleep or attempting to explore. If it is not tolerating someone, it also shows, by a tense balled up posture, or hissing or even striking.

Where we tend to get a bit divisive is when we try to define our ectothermic friends with human emotions. As humans, it is in our nature to want to experience some sort of bond with anyone or anything we care about. Heck, we even do it with inanimate objects like a favorite stuffed toy or a cherished book or photograph. I think I'm pretty darned safe in saying that my teddy bear feels no love toward me and would feel no pain at being separated from me. But that doesn't mean my heart accepts that truth when I drop the bear into a charity bin to pass him on to a child in need. It's one thing to know something intellectually...but something else to also accept that truth into your heart.

Snakes aren't teddy bears, though. They're actually alive. So maybe they DO feel something??? While I think it is the height of hubris to assume and insist that snakes feel nothing....I also believe that they don't feel "emotions" as we humans understand them. The bonds built between me and a beloved snake are real enough...but in all liklihood, just as one-sided as the bond between me and my teddy bear.

(And I do realize the OP isn't talking about emotional bonds...but rather just physical recognition....it's late....and I tend to talk too much after midnight. :P My thoughts on that...I believe there is enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that snakes can and do recognize certain people, if they have enough regular, consistent contact with them. However, I believe this recognition is not personal...but merely another facet of their environment.)

im confused

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Originally Posted by JLC

In some ways, it appears to be a game of semantics. What one person means whey they say a word such as "like" does not always mean what someone else might be thinking. I don't have any problems with someone suggesting their snake "likes" them because it appears to behave in a more secure and relaxed manner around them.

But not all this language boils down to personal opinion or semantic games. A word such as "tolerate" is not subjective. If a ball python is tolerating someone's attention, it shows by a relaxed attitude of either falling asleep or attempting to explore. If it is not tolerating someone, it also shows, by a tense balled up posture, or hissing or even striking.

Where we tend to get a bit divisive is when we try to define our ectothermic friends with human emotions. As humans, it is in our nature to want to experience some sort of bond with anyone or anything we care about. Heck, we even do it with inanimate objects like a favorite stuffed toy or a cherished book or photograph. I think I'm pretty darned safe in saying that my teddy bear feels no love toward me and would feel no pain at being separated from me. But that doesn't mean my heart accepts that truth when I drop the bear into a charity bin to pass him on to a child in need. It's one thing to know something intellectually...but something else to also accept that truth into your heart.

Snakes aren't teddy bears, though. They're actually alive. So maybe they DO feel something??? While I think it is the height of hubris to assume and insist that snakes feel nothing....I also believe that they don't feel "emotions" as we humans understand them. The bonds built between me and a beloved snake are real enough...but in all liklihood, just as one-sided as the bond between me and my teddy bear.

(And I do realize the OP isn't talking about emotional bonds...but rather just physical recognition....it's late....and I tend to talk too much after midnight. :P My thoughts on that...I believe there is enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that snakes can and do recognize certain people, if they have enough regular, consistent contact with them. However, I believe this recognition is not personal...but merely another facet of their environment.)

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excellent post Judy!!!

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Snakes aren't teddy bears, though. They're actually alive. So maybe they DO feel something??? While I think it is the height of hubris to assume and insist that snakes feel nothing....

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I'll second that. Its not like I really think that there is some complex stuff going on in that little head. But, I don't buy the whole "robot personality" theory at all.

I'm not sure why this topic is divisive. There is a valid concern for the snake's safety if somebody starts getting some wacky ideas and tries to treat it like a cat or dog or something. Other than that, I find it surprising that anybody can get so adamant about something that is so abstract. Ultimately, we'll never *really* know what its like to be a snake so its all speculation for fun anyway.

I hope one day this thread dies.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm not sure why this topic is divisive. There is a valid concern for the snake's safety if somebody starts getting some wacky ideas and tries to treat it like a cat or dog or something. Other than that, I find it surprising that anybody can get so adamant about something that is so abstract. Ultimately, we'll never *really* know what its like to be a snake so its all speculation for fun anyway.

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I'll agree with that, too. I don't understand why, but the hobby certainly has its share of people who seem intent on making sure everyone sees it their way. When it comes to the health and well being of the animals, I can understand...but if someone wants to believe their snake wuvs them.... :giggle: It's no skin off my nose. :P

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I hope one day this thread dies.

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Why? :confused: It's always an interesting discussion....I think. And if someone doesn't like it, or loses interest...they don't have to open the thread anymore. :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by JLC

I'll agree with that, too. I don't understand why, but the hobby certainly has its share of people who seem intent on making sure everyone sees it their way. When it comes to the health and well being of the animals, I can understand...but if someone wants to believe their snake wuvs them.... :giggle: It's no skin off my nose. :P

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It's the internet, it's a public forum..... as you said, some people are intent on forcing their view point as the only view point. It's all a part of human nature as I see it.... and to a degree, it's what makes a forum work.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Why? :confused: It's always an interesting discussion....I think. And if someone doesn't like it, or loses interest...they don't have to open the thread anymore. :confuzd:

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Easy... it was just sarcasm. I wasn't being completely serious.

I do think it's a fun discussion. I had a good time participating in it.

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Originally Posted by darkangel

I do think it's a fun discussion. I had a good time participating in it.

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me too.

but wait....you make it sound like its OOOVERRRRR bwahahahahah

:P

I think for me anyways, where I have a problem with the whole "my snake loves me" type thing is it sometimes doesn't end there. It can for some people move on to "my snake loves to drive around in the car with me", "my snakes loves visits to the pet store", "my snake loves to play with my kitty". I'm not exaggerating to make a point. Every one of those comes from either my experience with that sort of owner or from threads on this very forum.

That's one reason I'm always very uncomfortable with folks that go that way too much. They begin to put some many human or non-snake emotions on to the snake that they lose sight of the boundaries inherent in owning a snake. They stop seeing what a snake is and what it isn't. That's when I get very vocal about such things as I can't see why we even need to impose our human standard of emotion on a creature that is perfectly designed by nature to be and do what it needs to.

I don't think it matters if any of our snakes like me or know me from anyone else. I've seen some evidence that in certain hands they react better to handling but that's just what it is. I think it's enough that I like them and know them each as individuals, feel honored to share a life with them and that they are thriving and healthy in our care. :)

I agree that there is a danger in personifying our snakes due to the fact that we forget to give them the respect and space that they need and deserve. By putting our emotions on them, we lose sight of what they really are, and the fact that they could turn on us in an instant if they so desired.

I would love it if snakes were as loyal as dogs or birds. Hell, you couldn't ask for a better "guard dog" for the house if it were possible to teach a snake, "I am master, I am safe, I am love and food and shelter. You protect the house. I will take care of you." That would be so amazing. But unfortunately, thats not the case. The reality of the situation is that a snake is a snake with basic hunting instincts. It strives to feed itself and protect itself, end of story. As much as I would like my snake to love me, I know that it either cannot or will not, and it's enough for me to know that I have a love for it instead.

However, for those that feel the need to personify their animals, go right ahead. Just dont forget that snakes can be unpredictable at times and they do have teeth which are rather ... unloving, shall we say?

This topic has always been one in which I participate in because of reasons like which Jo has stated. When the health of a snake is endangered or its ability to "thrive" instead of just survive as a result of the actions of its owner its a problem. I always try to provide a logical explanation for behaviors that people tend to give human emotional explanations for. I am always one to argue the point that we will never know for sure until the means to extrapolate that sort of information from snakes is developed or an extensive study is undertaken. Until that point all the "available" information tends to point to the direction that snakes are driven by instincts.

Hi,


Just wanted to add my :2cent: about the handling responses thing.:)

The pet shop I buy my frozen rats at had 3 medium sized ball pythons in last week so I asked if I could see them as they were all marked as female.

The new employee didn't want tot ake any of them out as all three were "vicious" and "bit at every oportunity". Naturally I told him it was ok and I didn't mind being bitten that much.

All three of them handled like sweethearts, they were in horrible conditions with retained sheds etc and not one had had a recent meal, but personality wise they all moved freely with little body tension and as long as you took head shyness into account they showed no sign of stress.

So my question is;

When we say they react differently when "we" hold them is it because they recognise us or is it because we know how to handle them without causing extra stress?

Oh and when I gave one of the snakes back to the store employee it did indeed bite him. :twisted:

The shop in question is really quite good so I'm sure they will sort the snakes out fairly quickly. Though I'm not sure that employee will last the course.:D



dr del

I definately feel that I'm actually part of the process as I tame my new JCP. Each time he reacts better and better but I also notice that I also do a better and better job of handling him and not letting him create a situation that gets him upset.

dr del, in your case I would guess the snakes simply didn't like the guy. He probably mistreats them because he thinks they're viscious. Unless you saw him doing something horrible when handling it I don't know how the snake would be able to tell the difference. Then again, you could just be Mr. Smoooooth when it comes to snakes :P

I'm not quite sure yet what this might mean but it is an interesting point.

I want someone to each their snake to do tricks. Then, I will be convinced that they can learn responses :) Imagine, a ball python that was trained to juggle! Wait, that might not work, as they have no hands and all..

Hey,


Only thing I saw him do, and corrected him on, was trying to hold them behind the head because he expected them to bite.

I may not be mr Smooooth but I am definately mr Sneaky. :twisted:

When dealing with a possible nipper I tend to try and keep their heads moving and stop them focusing on one thing long enough to get ready to strike.:P

I always think that, just before a snake strikes, it keeps its tongue out longer flicking up and down so if i see that I point it at something that isn't me.:)

I am probably totally wrong on the last point however.


dr del

isn't the neck the best place to hold a potentially unruly snake?

Hi,

It's a good place to hold a definate biter if you dont want to get bitten.

It is also however a very stressfull place to hold a snake and can turn a nervous snake into a biter.

So basically I always avoid grabbing round the neck the first time I handle a snake so I can judge its temperament when I'm not doing anything I know to cause stress reactions. If I get bit I get bit and adjust the following handling sessions as required. I try and let them anchor their tail round my arms or whatever and let the front third explore as it wants.

It's not the way everyone else does it I admit but I always figure I got 8 pints so can spare a bit for herps.:D


dr del

perhaps I need to get bit once to take the scariness out of it.

I usually only hold a snake by the head/neck if I am doing some kind of procedure (giving a shot, oral meds, inspecting mouth, assist feed, etc) they don't like it much. I just keep strikers away from my face until they chill out. I have only been bitten by hatchlings and got more hurt from slamming my hand against the enclosure trying to get away. I reached into a tank of about 30 hatchlings at a pet store and before I grabbed one they got me LOL. I was a rookie at the time. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,


Just wanted to add my :2cent: about the handling responses thing.:)

The pet shop I buy my frozen rats at had 3 medium sized ball pythons in last week so I asked if I could see them as they were all marked as female.

The new employee didn't want tot ake any of them out as all three were "vicious" and "bit at every oportunity". Naturally I told him it was ok and I didn't mind being bitten that much.

All three of them handled like sweethearts, they were in horrible conditions with retained sheds etc and not one had had a recent meal, but personality wise they all moved freely with little body tension and as long as you took head shyness into account they showed no sign of stress.

So my question is;

When we say they react differently when "we" hold them is it because they recognise us or is it because we know how to handle them without causing extra stress?

Oh and when I gave one of the snakes back to the store employee it did indeed bite him. :twisted:

The shop in question is really quite good so I'm sure they will sort the snakes out fairly quickly. Though I'm not sure that employee will last the course.:D



dr del

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maybe the employee handled some rodents

Hi,


Wouldn't surprise me - he didn't seem the sharpest tool in the box.


dr del

The only one of ours that ever got a firm, right behind the head hold was Brannagh when we first got her. For her it was completely necessary to keep us safe from her strong bites and to keep her from the repeating of the bite action that she had developed as a response to humans. At the time she was 2,000 grams and highly aggressive/defensive, so controlling her was imperative. Normally we avoid that sort of handling as it tends to freak a snake out but sometimes with some snakes, it must be safety first.

I've only ever held right behind the head except for inspection, meds, etc. But when I'm getting my JCP out of the cage, I've noticed that if I touch him initially on the body he jumps and starts doing all this in-place coiling that reminds me of a rattlesnake. However, if I grab his neck about 5 inches down from his head he doesn't jump at all. Then I can place my second hand to support his body to lift him out. Also, he is much easier to "steer" during handling when grab him at this point. It seems like there's something special about the mid-neck on a snake. My BP seems to like being gently pet there too.