How can a cage be too big???

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Originally Posted by bearhart

............... The article you reference is awesome except I wish that she had discussed each of the symptoms in a little more detail. My snake does show one or two of them but I have no way to interpret their meaning.

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That will come with your own personal experience and with listening to the experienced breeders. There's no reason why you need to totally reinvent the wheel.

It's good to question in order to learn but isn't always wise to question every word. Eventually others won't want to provide advice b/c they could see it as a waste of effort on their part to 'convince' you what is necessary.

Compared to some, ball pythons could still be considered a fledgling hobby, but there are breeders and hobby herpers who have worked with and cared for these animals for many, many years. Experience is an excellent teacher, and to me, these ppl should be listened to and learned from. :)

I get the point regarding my personality. I can be a very aggressive person especially when it comes to technical issues. I try to work out the kinks as I go. You should have met me 15 years ago :O

BUT - I am also an often misunderstood person. Social nuances are a challenge for me at best and once my technical side gets fired up I lose what little I have and tend to become very serious, impersonal, and terse. I'm a champion of truth and reason and all else becomes secondary - including social graces. Alot of people aren't into that. As my boss told me once "Ben, you think black and white in world of grays." But, the real issue is that alot of people are inclined to take it personally, which it is most definately not. The truth of the matter is I actually prefer to lose an argument because then it means I have advanced. Take the "burn point" thread, for example. As I was doing research and challenging everybody I was also changing my husbandry. As we debated and dug up information I had to admit the validity of the reasoning. I was happy to "lose" because I got a great little education.

To summarize, I'm not really a bad guy. I definately get the impression some of the posts above are hostile and that some of the posters clearly think that I am hostile. Like you can incorrectly project your own feelings onto a snake, so can you onto another person when reading a body of text they wrote. We all fill in the blanks when it comes to how we think things are being said. Trust me, I'm not being sarcastic, or antagonistic, or careless. Just a little :sunny: :rolleye2: :taz: :carrot:

Oh well, that's enough about me. Hey you know what's funny? "BP.net" = "Bens-Personality.net" LOL Don't think so!! But, if three people took the time to write on the subject I figured I had the right to reply.

well i read the full 6 pages and just had to write something...

if a snake isnt doing so hot then maybe a keeper is doing something wrong?

my :2cent:...



thats all i can say. you guys pretty much covered all of it...

sorry to be so extra!

I think the above post is really something that the original poster needs to take to heart.

Bearhart, seriously, if your snake has been ill during its stay in your enclosure, the logical thing to do is to find out what can be done to speed the healing process. Ball pythons are not terribly active snakes. They spend a lot of time hiding and laying still. They are ambush predators and therefore do not have to go out in search for their food. They lay in wait until something comes near enough to strike and kill. They have a naturally slow metabolism and can go very lengthy periods of time without eating without ill effects. If you handle your ball python, IMO that should be enough exercise for him.

One reason there are a lot of opinions out there is just because a lot of people have different opinions. Another reason is because sometimes people will think that snakes in general all have the same needs, when in fact one species may need something completely different than another species. Ball pythons are shy snakes with different needs than, say a Boa Constrictor. When someone gives you advice, make very sure that they are a qualified, experienced ball python keeper who spends time learning improved husbandry techniques as the years pass.

To sum up the whole "How can a cage be too big?" question, here's what I think.

Larger cage-
Advantages:
-Impressive size
-Looks nice and spacious considering space needs of other animals
-Possibly can be used for the snake's entire life
Disadvantages:
-Water bowl and hides for a small snake may look too small for the enclosure when they are the right size for the snake... leading the keeper to purchase oversized supplies
-The enclosure itself is more expensive
-Larger heating elements needed to maintain proper temps
-A small snake may feel threatened by too much open space
-If the cage is heavily decorated to rake up open space, decorations must be cleaned regularly
-Feeding may take longer if feeding live prey

Smaller cage-
Advantages:
-Size of supplies are scaled to the snake
-Not paying for wasted space
-Low-wattage and less expensive heating elements
-Snake feels more crowded and secure without needing a lot of "stuff" to fill in the empty spaces
-Easier to clean
Disadvantages:
-Perhaps not as impressive in the looks department
-Seems like there's no where for the snake to explore
-Will most likely have to purchase at least one larger cage as the snake grows

So. Ball pythons need:
Correct temps
Correct humidity
Feeling of security
Clean environment

Without these things, your snake will most likely become stressed. Stress can lead to not eating and immunocompromisation (is that a word?). If your snake is stressed and its immune system is compromised, any other husbandry mistakes can cause a serious health problem. This works the other way around also. If your husbandry is off in some way, and your snake becomes stressed and immunocompromised, it can end up with a serious health problem

All that being said................................ smaller cages have been proven (search these forums) to provide ball pythons with their specific needs when a larger cage has not. And they are way easier to upkeep. That's why most experienced ball python keepers prefer smaller cages.

Rapture:

Well I'm all for that. I've made both some permanent and temporary husbandry changes. In addition, he's getting Baytril injections. Also, just so everybody knows the score here, his symptoms are very mild. They are so mild, in fact, that the vet's diagnosis was "maybe an RI" and the exotics dealer I got him from was skeptical at best. So, I'm not sure that this situation qualifies as some sort of skeleton in my closet. I'm not knocking the importance of husbandry here. I did take note from my online research that fixing any obvious husbandry issues were actually recommended as a first step in treatment of a mild RI. Also, my argumentative nature is often perceived as obstinace but is actually a way of sifting out the best info. Many people here are justifiably confident with their expertise but, until recently, I didn't know them from Adam.

We have had some experienced keepers report success with larger enclosures in this very thread. That takes the issue above opinion in my mind. I'm getting the impression that one possible mistake to make with a larger enclosure is to just add a bunch of dead space around the BP's original homestead. Or another one might be to take the same setup and scale it up in an attempt to make the whole thing roomier. I always envisioned taking the approach of making multiple areas, each of which offered all of amenities a BP desires within a short distance. Essentially the strategy would be to sort of replicate the smaller setup in a few patches inside the larger one.

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Also, just so everybody knows the score here, his symptoms are very mild. They are so mild, in fact, that the vet's diagnosis was "maybe an RI" and the exotics dealer I got him from was skeptical at best. So, I'm not sure that this situation qualifies as some sort of skeleton in my closet.

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This is a perfect example of where it "appears" that you dismiss out of hand information that experienced keepers try to share with you by trying to justify your current husbandry by saying that the RI is so mild....

Had your vet done a culture like he should have, there would be no doubt to whether he had a RI or not. Even if it is mild, left untreated, would have progressed to something much more difficult to treat, most likely as a lower RI.

It sounds like you've made up your mind what you plan to do, there's really not much that many of us can add at this point. I think the fact that only a handful of people stay with larger enclosures, and the more experienced keepers choose smaller speaks volumes. We choose smaller, because we have all observed in our own collections, that our snakes do much better when kept in smaller, snugger enclosures. I've got one female that comes OUT of her small enclosure to "help" me put the rat in her enclosure for her. I love that aggressive feed response, where the rat doesn't even touch the floor (live, I might add) before it's in a full coil.

Why not observe posters, and instead of being confused with what you perceive as conflicting information, choose one or two people who you feel offer the best advice and just follow their advice? Look at their length of time here, their reputation level and go from there.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

It's good to question in order to learn but isn't always wise to question every word. Eventually others won't want to provide advice b/c they could see it as a waste of effort on their part to 'convince' you what is necessary.

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Agreed. I don't want to become the Darth Vader of BP keeping. :sabduel:

Part of the problem though is that this site is dual purpose. On one hand it is a troubleshooting site and on the other it is a place for enthusiasts to share experiences and debate. Likewise, legal liabilities ensure that an MD can't do much more than regurgitate the currently accepted "correct" advice to you during a patient visit yet the history of medical research that provided that information is long and rich and involves experimentations, failures, debates, upsets, you name it. For the safety of the patient, these are kept very separate. On BP.net they live side-by-side.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

This is a perfect example of where it "appears" that you dismiss out of hand information that experienced keepers try to share with you by trying to justify your current husbandry by saying that the RI is so mild....

Had your vet done a culture like he should have, there would be no doubt to whether he had a RI or not. Even if it is mild, left untreated, would have progressed to something much more difficult to treat, most likely as a lower RI.

It sounds like you've made up your mind what you plan to do, there's really not much that many of us can add at this point. I think the fact that only a handful of people stay with larger enclosures, and the more experienced keepers choose smaller speaks volumes. We choose smaller, because we have all observed in our own collections, that our snakes do much better when kept in smaller, snugger enclosures. I've got one female that comes OUT of her small enclosure to "help" me put the rat in her enclosure for her. I love that aggressive feed response, where the rat doesn't even touch the floor (live, I might add) before it's in a full coil.

Why not observe posters, and instead of being confused with what you perceive as conflicting information, choose one or two people who you feel offer the best advice and just follow their advice? Look at their length of time here, their reputation level and go from there.

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I'm not dismissing anything. I even acknowledges that husbandry is the most likely cause and that I've made corrections. I'm just saying that I don't think its appropriate to dangle it in front of my face in an entirely unrelated discussion that I initiated in order to solicit the opinions of these keepers you recommend. Anybody on here has been sick dozens of times in there life. Sometimes there are obvious reasons and other times there aren't. And I doubt many of us call our mothers to admonish them for the times we got sick as kids.

I suppose I'm risking angering you here but I have to point out that you just placed your opinion above a vet's. I have just recently been flamed for a somewhat less serious breach of responsibility.

Also, I have actually questioned the vet involved on both the culture and the oral baytril issues based on information received from this site. Trust me, I have accepted considerably greater stress, time, and money expenditure on this whole RI thing in the name of "rep'n my BP homies". Also, when I went to the vet to get the injections they talked with me further and it became clear to me that they *disagreed* based on experience and discussion with other vets, not out of ignorance. In addition, they provided me with a rather lengthy printout from a closed vet's forum discussing this exact issue. It was not cut and dry by any means. I've got no regrets so far and its all cool. I just wish we could all relax a bit and spend our time on the real issues.

You are definately a very intelligent individual; I can see that. :)
I would be concerned that in a larger cage, the ambient air would not be evenly heated and kept at the right temperature.
It is just so easy to heat and keep heated, a cage that is just right: big enouhg to let the snake stretch and be active.. small enough to hold heat and humidity at even levels consistent with a temperature gradient. ("cozy" if you will..)
I am not just regurging info here. I had my snakes in larger tanks (with much higher floor-to-lid heights than the tubs) for a time, with more height-space than the tubs they are in. What I found in tanks was an inability to have stable humidity, let alone temperatures!
I will readily admit.. I hated tubs and racks at first. I thought they were so ugly, spartan.. hated the appearances of them.. Then, my attitude changed. I was sick of covering my tanks with saran wrap before/during sheds to somewhat retain humidity. Was tired of needing to cover the glass sides so that my shy snakes would eat better (tubs are less see-through..) Not to mention the floor space saved with a rack of nicely sized tubs versus tanks everywhere.. it is tough when your house (apartment) has limited floorspace and your other interest is fish and aquaria which take up huge areas of said limited floor space :) Living in a large, open-floor farmhouse might seem like you'd have a spacious place; not so in this case!
I realize that I have gone off of the strict topic of large Vs. small cages, and made my post about tanks vs. tubs. But I think that it is relevant.. tubs have smaller, cozier heights than most tanks.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Also, my argumentative nature is often perceived as obstinace but is actually a way of sifting out the best info.

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Or just maybe, despite all your rationalizations, it's just obstinance. Yeah, I know, it's a crazy thought! :D

Whoops, where did Good Sarah go? :bolt:

Well I won't deny the urge to spoil him. The name "Snakey" says it all. "Yes you are my little Snakey aren't you? aren't you? Yes you are! Gootchie gootchi goo!" Wait, did I say that out loud?

I'm torn for sure. Maybe I'll bump him up a little before too long and see how he does. Like I said earlier, 95% of the time he needs only half the space he has but there are times I'm sure he would have fun with some more room. The challenge to me seems to be in how you configure the area so as to provide one or more secure small areas but allow some optional access to roam.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Well I won't deny the urge to spoil him. The name "Snakey" says it all. "Yes you are my little Snakey aren't you? aren't you? Yes you are! Gootchie gootchi goo!" Wait, did I say that out loud?

I'm torn for sure. Maybe I'll bump him up a little before too long and see how he does. Like I said earlier, 95% of the time he needs only half the space he has but there are times I'm sure he would have fun with some more room.

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Alright, I understand the urge to spoil your snake. I want the very best for my snake and so I do my best to provide that. However, the most important part of owning a snake and making him/her healthy and stress-free is to provide a suitable set-up. I side with Robin and many of the other people who have similar opinions, YOUR snake is NOT thriving in the conditions that your recommending to other herpers, yet when your reminded of this we're all of a sudden bringing a skeleton out of the closet. But that just happens to be the reality of the situation. There really is NO mild RI to deal with, b/c it always leads to bigger problems. As you stated yourself, one of the best things to do to treat and help prevent further RI's is to fix your husbandry set-up. Yet you are still preaching the conflicting information that you supposedly came here to debate away (which from what I've seen your only aiding in the spread of conflicting information).

Also there is the anthropomorphizing part of the equation. You cannot expect a snake to feel the emotion we describe as "happy". A hunter that is not high up on the foodchain is never going to be "happy", too many variables for them to worry about (even if we do our best to rid them) that at best they could be "content". A bp naturally has to worry about larger predators, staying hidden, finding it's own food, thermoregulating, shedding, acquiring water, etc. Then add the obvious stress that WE put them through when we keep them as pets. We take them out, a larger animal actually plays with them. Imagine what it would be like for a troll to come and play with us. The least we can do is provide them what they would find to be a cozy, secure, and as stress-free set-up as possible. This is BEST obtained with a small enclosure with even smaller hides.

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The challenge to me seems to be in how you configure the area so as to provide one or more secure small areas but allow some optional access to roam.

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Which brings me to my next point. There is no real need for a snake to need and enclosure large enough for it to roam. Roaming is almost always a sure sign of stress. Yes, it's unhealthy to keep any animal in TOO small an enclosure, because a snake does need to stretch out every once and awhile. But as long as you handle your bp every once in awhile to worry about your snake getting enough excercise is a moot point. :2cent:

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me on this other than for personal reasons.

There are five prior posters who have said something to indicate they think that a large enclosure can work under the right circumstances. Two of the posters said they are having success with large enclosures. All I've really said is that I think it sounds like its worth a try if done carefully. That statement is based both on their statements as well as those of the people who feel it is not a good idea.

Nobody is bashing these other posters and somehow its turned into some sort of trial of my husbandry.

And, if you're going to give the anthropomorphism argument, please review your own text. The argument doesn't just apply to words like "prefers" and "enjoys". It also applies to words like "worry" and "stressed".

So, an accomplished vet (these guys are most definately not quacks) told me it was a mild RI. Gooseman, please enlighten me as to your experience and expertise that qualifies you to say there is no such thing.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, an accomplished vet (these guys are most definately not quacks) told me it was a mild RI. Gooseman, please enlighten me as to your experience and expertise that qualifies you to say there is no such thing.

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Yes, I have very little actual hands-on experience in the matter, HOWEVER, I am a biomedical science major and have worked at a vets office for the last 3 and a half years, and through my studies I have found the following to be true. We always stress that one needs to watch their snake to watch for signs of stress that may cause a compromised immune system. A compromised immune systems makes it easy for a snake to obtain either viral or bacterial RI's, along with a laundry list of other medical conditions. Concerning an RI, The best method for diagnosis is a radiograph to definitively determine the existence of a respiratory infection. The lungs should appear clear in the x-ray, because the bacteria buildup will increase the density of the respiratory tract and will show up as a foggy mass on an x-ray. Along with an x-ray, tracheal wash should be performed to get sample bacteria to do a culture and then to help determine the best anitbiotics for treating the RI. Often times the bacteria involved in a respiratory infection may travel up the trachea to the mouth creating a secondary oral infection (i.e. mouth rot). The opposite is also true when the underlying condition is an oral infection the bacteria may travel down the trachea to the lungs creating a secondary respiratory infection. In the case of a primary oral infection it may be possible to detect a respiratory infection early and begin treatment before it becomes critical. Treatment of a respiratory infection is critical. This is especially true in snakes, which have only one functional lung. The upper portion of a snake's lung performs gas exchange while the lower portion of the lung serves as an air sac. The snake has no working diaphram as we do. To breath a snake actually has to pump it's lungs with its muscles to force the gas-exchange. However, this makes it impossible for a snake to cough up any mucus build-up in their airway. ANY build-up in the upper respiratory tract will eventually travel down into the lower air-sac which will then make the infection significantly harder to treat. If you understand the mechanical differences between our respiratory system and a snakes, it shoud be obvious why RI's are so devastating in snakes. Following proper diagnosis by an experienced reptile veterinarian, treatment should involve antibacterial agents. If the underlying environmental conditions are not corrected all the treatment in the world will not do the reptile any good at all.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me on this other than for personal reasons.

There are five prior posters who have said something to indicate they think that a large enclosure can work under the right circumstances. Two of the posters said they are having success with large enclosures. All I've really said is that I think it sounds like its worth a try if done carefully. That statement is based both on their statements as well as those of the people who feel it is not a good idea.

Nobody is bashing these other posters and somehow its turned into some sort of trial of my husbandry.

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This is not an attack against you, however you keep bringing up how you like the debates yet are first to call it an attack when we single you out. The other posters are SUCCESSFULLY keeping animals in their enclosures and are not experiencing medical problems that can be attributed to their set-ups ATM

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And, if you're going to give the anthropomorphism argument, please review your own text. The argument doesn't just apply to words like "prefers" and "enjoys". It also applies to words like "worry" and "stressed".

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Stress is not an emotion, stress is a documented medical condition that leads to other medical problems. "happyness" and "depression" are emotions that we use to describe why we cycle through stress phases.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

BUT - I am also an often misunderstood person. Social nuances are a challenge for me at best and once my technical side gets fired up I lose what little I have and tend to become very serious, impersonal, and terse. I'm a champion of truth and reason and all else becomes secondary - including social graces. Alot of people aren't into that.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me

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Perhaps you've answered your own question. I too have a "technical" side that I manage to keep under lock and key under certain circumstances...especially if that situation involves a living creature with which I have little or no experience with AND I'm soliciting the advice of a community which has a plethora of it.

My advice to you would be to set your ego aside for a while and learn to be a little less argumentative on subjects that you have very little experience with. The advice given to you comes from a variety of respected and venerated breeders/hobbyists/enthusiasts from the herping community and ultimately it's upto you to decide if your gonna take it or reinvent the wheel.

Just my :2cent:

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the documentable experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes. In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the documentable experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes.

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I have no doubt in my mind that they do, I never claimed to be anything more than a student. I just wanted to show that even though I don't have a vast amount of hands on experience, I do know a thing or two, and I'll be the first to admit I want to know more.

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In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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I'm sure the place in quite impressive, and I'm sure they know what they are doing. Its just to call a RI "mild and not needing treatment" seems questionable to me. It may not need immediate medical attention, but ALL RI's need treatment or else are fatal.

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Perhaps you've answered your own question. I too have a "technical" side that I manage to keep under lock and key under certain circumstances...especially if that situation involves a living creature with which I have little or no experience with AND I'm soliciting the advice of a community which has a plethora of it.

My advice to you would be to set your ego aside for a while and learn to be a little less argumentative on subjects that you have very little experience with. The advice given to you comes from a variety of respected and venerated breeders/hobbyists/enthusiasts from the herping community and ultimately it's upto you to decide if your gonna take it or reinvent the wheel.

Just my :2cent:

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Ironically, I'm trying. I only wanted to have a nice chat about large cages.

Thing is, I'm really the only person here who has admitted any fault at anything. I get flamed for giving "vet advice" yet others do it. I've pointed out that my vet has made some very good arguments to me for not doing an initial culture as well as using oral Baytril. Does anybody here even acknowledge that? One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it. They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true). In addition, they provided me with a nice long printout from a vet's forum on the issue to back it up. Anybody here mention any of this stuff? No. I got things like "Injections are the only way to go." etc. Who's flaming those people for giving vet advice?????

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the documentable experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes. In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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um... congratulations?

you seem to just want to prove him wrong by now, great.
back to your op, because I'm really not interested in the bickering and your self proclaimed inability to deal with social situations...
i want you to take a moment to consider that a young snake, or even a small snake is going to be a prey species, they would not want to come across open spaces where they could be spotted from above. Big cats in trees, eagles, secretary birds. Large spaces mean more opportunity to get spotted and killed. Consider this in deciding a cage, and whatever you decided, use some common sense. In a larger cage your snake will never come out and will probably not eat because it won't want to be seen out in the open. As keepers it is our duty to provide for the best health of the snake, and increasing stress is most definitely not that. You may certainly try your own things, but do it intelligently and not just to prove people wrong. Do things to benefit your charges not yourself and there will be no problem.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

I'm sure the place in quite impressive, and I'm sure they know what they are doing. Its just to call a RI "mild and not needing treatment" seems questionable to me. It may not need immediate medical attention, but ALL RI's need treatment or else are fatal.

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OK, misunderstanding. Diagnosis was "possible mild RI" with trial oral Baytril as an initial treatment step with additional action if the infection does not respond.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Ironically, I'm trying.

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Definitely hats off for that.

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I get flamed for giving "vet advice" yet others do it.

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I would prefer to think that people are just scrutinizing your statements a little more due to the fact that you are new to the community and that you have very little experience under your belt.

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I've pointed out that my vet has made some very good arguments to me for not doing an initial culture as well as using oral Baytril. Does anybody here even acknowledge that? One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it. They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true). In addition, they provided me with a nice long printout from a vet's forum on the issue to back it up.

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Point taken and acknowledged. The bottom line is whom you choose to believe. I used to be involved in ball python rescues a couple of years ago and I have lost a couple due to the Vet telling me to not do the cultures or administer the Baytril. Maybe your Vet is a lot more competent with reptiles than a lot of those who mainly see your everyday dogs and cats.

Personally, I choose to believe the cumulative experience of some of the top breeders in the world(they frequent our forums by the way) over the advice of an "average" Vet any day. And I say this because these folks keep ball pythons worth over millions of dollars and they employ the services of some of the best herp vets in the region.

The combined experience of these breedear with ball pythons itself can top several decades, exclusively! That has to mean something, empirical evidence provided or not. It just boils down to if you can swallow what's being offered.

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No. I got things like "Injections are the only way to go." etc. Who's flaming those people for giving vet advice?????

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Once again, I would prefer the term "extra scrutiny." You yourself mentioned that you get terse under argumentative circumstances. So try not to get too offended if that is a two way street. :)

Ironically, I'm prepared to watch my snake squirm in pain through four more injections based largely on the advice from the people here - and contrary to the opinion of my vet. All the while they bash me for not listening.

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Definitely hats off for that.



I would prefer to think that people are just scrutinizing your statements a little more due to the fact that you are new to the community and that you have very little experience under your belt.



Point taken and acknowledged. The bottom line is whom you choose to believe. I used to be involved in ball python rescues a couple of years ago and I have lost a couple due to the Vet telling me to not do the cultures or administer the Baytril. Maybe your Vet is a lot more competent with reptiles than a lot of those who mainly see your everyday dogs and cats.

Personally, I choose to believe the cumulative experience of some of the top breeders in the world(they frequent our forums by the way) over the advice of an "average" Vet any day. And I say this because these folks keep ball pythons worth over millions of dollars and they employ the services of some of the best herp vets in the region.

The combined experience of these breedear with ball pythons itself can top several decades, exclusively! That has to mean something, empirical evidence provided or not. It just boils down to if you can swallow what's being offered.



Once again, I would prefer the term "extra scrutiny." You yourself mentioned that you get terse under argumentative circumstances. So try not to get too offended if that is a two way street. :)

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Yes and I'm prepared to be understanding. But I'm getting angry now because my snake is freaked out and undergoing alot more pain than my vet things he has to. Its all very hard to watch and its based alot on my trust of these experienced people. But, the double standard is getting hard to bear. I don't abuse my snake and my cage is, by now, almost entirely in line with what's recommended here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Its all very hard to watch and its based alot on my trust of these experienced people.

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The fact is that this is an online forum which has the cumulative advice passed down from those who've been in the business for several decades. While I consider it to be golden, it's upto you, the owner of the animal to decide what to do.

If you think that your Vet is competent and knows what he/she is doing, then by all means give their opinion the respect it deserves. This is only an online forum by the end of the day. The advice passed to you comes from a total stranger sitting from behind a keyboard. I consider most of it to be solid. However, you should take it with a grain of salt and not use it as a tool for diagnosis or treatment which should be done by a "competent" vet.

It's your animal, free country, and totally your decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, an accomplished vet (these guys are most definately not quacks) told me it was a mild RI. Gooseman, please enlighten me as to your experience and expertise that qualifies you to say there is no such thing.

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But didn't you say early on that your vet is primarily an avian vet? Do you know how many ball pythons he sees each year?

My own vet for my ball pythons has told me that he sees very few each year and has asked me to write up how I house my ball pythons so that he can hand them out to his clients, because I'm clearly doing something right, as my snakes are the healthiest he has had the pleasure of seeing and handling.

I think Raj said it best - ultimately you have to decide if the advice given here by exerperienced keepers who work with these animals day after day, week after week and year after year is good advice or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the document-able experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes. In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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And yet you are caring for the snake not your vet. I have no doubt that your vet has great experience diagnosing problems in animals. The issue seems to have gotten skewed. Yes your vet has given you some great advice and treatment for clearing up your "possible RI". But again this thread is about the size of the enclosure being a detriment to its health.With that said I would be will to be you one years pay that your vet has less than 1/10 the experience hours or days or years of the combined experience of actuality keeping these animals as the combine experience of the people here.

If you want a big impressive display enclosure, Wonderful, Great, :rockon:
Get an Emerald Tree Boa. :D :D :D :D :D :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

We have had some experienced keepers report success with larger enclosures in this very thread.

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it is possible but obviously for you at this point and time in your bp keeping career its not...

just fix your enclosure.

please?


end of thread starting now. :colbert:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigballs

it is possible but obviously for you at this point and time in your bp keeping career its not...

just fix your enclosure.

please?

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:yes:

I think I recall you arguing about why you don't need a Tstat before you finally decided to give in and buy one. Just(as Bigballs said) stop arguing and fix the enclosure. You don't need to justify every small error you may make. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I get flamed for giving "vet advice" yet others do it.

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Speaking as the person responsible for this the reason was because the advice you offered was actually dangerous and could easily have lead to extreme complications or the death of the snake involved.
This is a little different than recomending a procedure routinely recomended and carried out on snakes.
I also didn't really consider I was flaming you but I can see how you may have felt that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I've pointed out that my vet has made some very good arguments to me for not doing an initial culture as well as using oral Baytril. Does anybody here even acknowledge that?

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I did? I told you why the big breeders get cultures done. On the oral baytril front I have had both prescribed over the years and can definately say the injections worked faster but after a second course the oral did seem to clear things up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it.

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I think it does work - eventually. It took an extra course in my experience and, personally, I want to try and cure the infections as quickly as possible if I can. I can also assure you giving oral medication to a ball python is a lot harder than giving it injections - mine was considerably less than co-operative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true).

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I think those are far more likely if the injections are incorrectly administered. As for the pain it is fleeting and I would rather that than double the time of suffering the infection. I admit the above is only my personal feelings on the matter however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

In addition, they provided me with a nice long printout from a vet's forum on the issue to back it up. Anybody here mention any of this stuff? No. I got things like "Injections are the only way to go." etc. Who's flaming those people for giving vet advice?????

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Could you ask them if it would be ok to share it with us as I'm sure many of our members would like to read it?

No one is flaming them because that is the standard vetinary advice and , having been used for many years by many people, is extremely unlikely to cause the animal to experience any negative effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I don't abuse my snake and my cage is, by now, almost entirely in line with what's recommended here.

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We may have stumbled onto another factor - I didn't know that. I've only ever seen the arguing side and never the post where you said "ok I agree and will do that":P

Now what's the "almost" bit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Part of the problem though is that this site is dual purpose. On one hand it is a troubleshooting site and on the other it is a place for enthusiasts to share experiences and debate. Likewise, legal liabilities ensure that an MD can't do much more than regurgitate the currently accepted "correct" advice to you during a patient visit yet the history of medical research that provided that information is long and rich and involves experimentations, failures, debates, upsets, you name it. For the safety of the patient, these are kept very separate. On BP.net they live side-by-side.

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Intresting point - I hadn't really though of the site as divided like that at all.

On the regurgitation of accepted correct advice, yes that's a good starting point and to do anything else would be grossly irresponsible as it could lead to suffering and possible death of another. It's not really a legal thing - more a moral thing for me. I will happily pass on wierd things that have worked for me in the past but only if I know that , even if they don't help, they certainly won't hurt.

It might make it easier to point out that experiments rely on analysis of the results informed by an understanding of baseline results and usually using a control group.

Now hurry up and finish 1.07 so I can resume my other addiction.:P


dr del

To any new posters: please skip the "big-cage" thing. Any sort of idea that I can't be reached and just am going to recklessly throw my BP into a cavernous enclosure whilst he suffers is just not true. Any meaningful discussion on that topic was lost pages ago and I have already said that any steps I make in that direction will be done very carefully. I would also request that, unless you're willing to bite off carefully reading all of the preceding posts, please refrain from injecting what will basically be noise into this already complex discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

I did? I told you why the big breeders get cultures done. On the oral baytril front I have had both prescribed over the years and can definately say the injections worked faster but after a second course the oral did seem to clear things up.

I think it does work - eventually. It took an extra course in my experience and, personally, I want to try and cure the infections as quickly as possible if I can. I can also assure you giving oral medication to a ball python is a lot harder than giving it injections - mine was considerably less than co-operative.

I think those are far more likely if the injections are incorrectly administered. As for the pain it is fleeting and I would rather that than double the time of suffering the infection. I admit the above is only my personal feelings on the matter however.

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Thanks, that's great to know and its certainly more well-rounded, informative, and appropriately qualified than the first batch of comments I got on this subject.

Having done both the oral and injection route now I would have to disagree with you on which is easier. I have found the oral to be far easier than injections and it is very clear from the amount of resistance that Snakey strong prefers the former.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Could you ask them if it would be ok to share it with us as I'm sure many of our members would like to read it?

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I would very much like to contribute to the group knowledge on this issue in an organized fashion. When this is over I can share my experiences. I also agree that, while this printout lacks any definative answers on the subject, it does do a nice job of describing all the issues to consider and has some discussion of real-world experience. It is a paper printout taken from the VIN page. VIN is for professionals and students only so I can't get an electronic form there. Also, the printout page states that copyright is reserved and distribution is not allowed without written consent blah blah... If it wasn't for that I'd even take the time to type it all in. The other thing I could do is summarize the disscussion, basically reducing each post to a bullet list of the points made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

We may have stumbled onto another factor - I didn't know that. I've only ever seen the arguing side and never the post where you said "ok I agree and will do that":P

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That's not true. In the "burn point" thread (we should change this thread to "flash point" :P ) we discussed temps, rheostats, and t-stats. I did indeed follow advice echoed several times which was "at the very least go get a rheostat" - and I said multiple times that I did so. I am, indeed, very happy with the rheostat and have had good luck getting stable temperatures. For reasons THAT HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SNAKES I am somewhat leery of using a thermostat. Given that I am having such good luck getting stable temps using a rheostat, I do not feel that a t-stat is justified. I could actually give back to the group by outlining all that I've done but that would just be another freakshow argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Now what's the "almost" bit?

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LOL!!! You know what I would have been very disappointed if this managed to slide through unnoticed!

So, since the introduction of the rheostat I have also eliminated what was undoubtedly the last major problems with Snakey's cage:
1) Insufficient cool-side heating.
2) Too much ventilation.
Both of which make it impossible to get the actual ambient temperature in the cage up in the 80's. The cage was more like a poorly insulated home in the winter. You're fine if you're by the heater but if you walk over to the corner of the room its cold.

My one deviation at this point is the lack of identical cool/warm hides. However, I have taken the importance of this to heart. I have a much more "organic" cage design that is cluttered with logs and pieces of cork bark. I like it because it looks nice and, in fact, creates more little hiding spots than, say, two planter bottoms. Currently, I don't feel that this is a problem because I have spent alot of time tweaking things (and watching Snakey's reaction) to the point where he does utililize the various hiding spots in order to thermoregulate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Intresting point - I hadn't really though of the site as divided like that at all.

On the regurgitation of accepted correct advice, yes that's a good starting point and to do anything else would be grossly irresponsible as it could lead to suffering and possible death of another. It's not really a legal thing - more a moral thing for me. I will happily pass on wierd things that have worked for me in the past but only if I know that , even if they don't help, they certainly won't hurt.

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Thanks for acknowledging this. The use of the work "regurgitation" was not meant to be negative at all. Perhaps the term "conservatively advise" would sound better. Also, the mention of legal issues was just a part of my medical analogy.

Anwyay, I think it might be kind of cool to have a troubleshooting forum. The site could be designed to funnel newcomers into it and it could say sometihng like:
"Troubleshooting help - get help for your snake from ball-python.net's most experienced keepers".
I think it would be great. I know I would have appreciated something like that when I first came here with my "help my snake is doing XXX" problem. It would also take some of the pressure off the other areas in terms of the aforementioned risk issues.

i believe i said end of thread.... ;)

Forgive me, but I just have to step in here and say a few things. I may regret it...but y'all can shoot me in the morning if necessary. :P


First...to address the most recent suggestion about having a "troubleshooting" forum. That's pretty much what this entire site is about. Yes, we share a lot of other stuff besides "trouble"....but the site is divided into so many different sections and categories specifically so people can have places to look for answers to their troubles.....or find questions that they can answer. Yes....there's TONS of stuff to wade through, and it can be daunting for new members, which is why we see the same questions over and over again. I understand that. But....if we had a single "troubleshooting" forum...it would be even harder to find the answers because husbandry would be mixed in with breeding and ball pythons would be mixed in with bearded dragons and kingsnakes and how to keep the shelves on my rack from bowing..... :rolleye2:

Second....some comments about this thread in general and others like it. Debate and discussion are always welcomed. If someone wants to question why we suggest the solutions that we do....that's fine. We like to hear ourselves type and most of the time are happy to explain ourselves. ;) And if you don't agree with what you're hearing/seeing....it's fine to point that out. BUT....if you do intend to disagree...you have to expect folks to disagree right back atcha. And the fact that you can't convince someone that your side of the argument is right and they're wrong doesn't mean they don't like you or are out to get you in any way.

It's perfectly OK to read what we write and then come to your own conclusions based on your own experiences and other outside sources. We ALL do that. But we don't all seem to feel the need to justify every single conclusion to everyone around us who will listen.

If you want to discuss snakes and all the multitude of different ways it is possible to keep them....great! But please offer the same acceptance to what we have to say as you expect us to give to what you say.

((Please note that "we" in this instance encompasses the general "established" population that seems to so often be accused of whatever infraction or personal slight is felt at the moment.....and "you" is intended for anyone who feels picked on simply for expressing their dissenting opinions, and not any specific individual.))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it.

---

Oral Baytril is an "old school" method of treating RI's in ball pythons. It's a remedy that had worked for years in other larger bodied snakes (boas, burms, retics, etc) but due to the slower metabolisms of ball pythons we know today that it is largely ineffective in their treatment of RI's in p. regius. It will most likely do enough to make the symptoms go away, but will not eliminate the bacteria enough to prevent a potential relapse in the cooler winter months.

Many vets that do not stay current with literature documenting advances in reptile medicine are not familiar with how ball pythons are most effectively treated today ... Bayer, who holds that patent on Baytril, even recommends sub cutaneous injections specifically for treating respiratory infections in ball pythons.

The reality is that most of the cutting edge vets working with ball pythons (Scott Stahl, Charles Innus, Elliot Jacobson) are moving away from Baytil all togther in favor of third generation anti-pseudomonal cephalosporins or combinations of enroflaxin (or an aminoglycoside) and a cephalosporin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true).

---

The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections. I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Oral Baytril is an "old school" method of treating RI's in ball pythons. It's a remedy that had worked for years in other larger bodied snakes (boas, burms, retics, etc) but due to the slower metabolisms of ball pythons we know today that it is largely ineffective in their treatment of RI's in p. regius. It will most likely do enough to make the symptoms go away, but will not eliminate the bacteria enough to prevent a potential relapse in the cooler winter months.

Many vets that do not stay current with literature documenting advances in reptile medicine are not familiar with how ball pythons are most effectively treated today ... Bayer, who holds that patent on Baytril, even recommends sub cutaneous injections specifically for treating respiratory infections in ball pythons.

The reality is that most of the cutting edge vets working with ball pythons (Scott Stahl, Charles Innus, Elliot Jacobson) are moving away from Baytil all togther in favor of third generation anti-pseudomonal cephalosporins or combinations of enroflaxin (or an aminoglycoside) and a cephalosporin.



The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections. I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Paging doctor Wysocki.....code blue in the ball room.

Great post !!!

Learn something new every day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Paging doctor Wysocki.....code blue in the ball room.

Great post !!!

Learn something new every day

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o gee...you have a code blue-ball(s)!

get him an injection STAT!

:giggle:

My vet tells me there is no confirmed data to date that shows if meds are absorbed orally and so he prefers injections.

When all else fails ask Dr. Wysocki. :gj:

With both the enclosure size and RI treatment....

....what are the results?

What we think about reptile husbandry and treatment is meaningless without showing results. IF there are negative results, we must be improve or change the way that we are treating/keeping our reptiles. IF you get positive results, we have the option to either be content with our results (and do not adjust anything) or continue to try to improve upon our keeping skills to get better results.

So with the actual results of certain housing and medical treatments in mind......

Is the enclosure size any issue if the snake is kept healthy and allowed to have successfully undergo basic life functions?

Is the RI treatment any issue if it successfully cures the illness?

It all about the animals and the results of our care....not our ideas, opinions, or interpretations of the proper housing or medical treatment.

As a keeper we have 100% control over the lives of the reptile. If they get sick, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they do not thrive, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they are stressed, IT IS OUR FAULT. If they are no provided proper vet care, IT IS OUR FAULT. It ALWAYS falls back on the keeper when something is not right.

However, some of us are blessed with the ability to say...My animals are healthy because I worked hard to support them. These sick animals are doing great since they have been treated and cared for by me. My animals reproduced successfully because I provided the conditions for them to mate. These lives emerged from the eggs because I incubated these eggs properly.

So what are your results? Every keeper should think about that before spewing information out.

If you are treating a RI, it does not matter how you do it or how great the doctor is that prescribed the treatment.......all that matters it that your snake gets better. Before the results of the treatment are determined, does any of the discussion even matter? All of the talk is just opinion.

If you house in a enclosure, the size is irrelevent. However, if your snake does not shed, eat, grow properly or is unhealthy....the enclosure you have is not good.

Pretty simple philosophy.

If something doesn't provide good results for your animal, then you learn a lesson and improve upon it.

Adam presented a good example of these 'improvements' with the progression of the treatment methods for Respiratory infections for ball pythons. There are 'old' methods that work. However, there are newer methods that work better. Some vets were content with the results of a certain treatment....Some vets were not content so they improved upon it.

Concerning enclosures.....Being content or satisified with keeping methods makes parts of husbandry very stale to me. Rack systems and other laboratory style methods of keeping reptiles are something where keepers found something that works well and are content with the results that it provides. Sure there are progressions with the functionality for OUR needs in newer designs but nothing significant for positive progress in terms of actual reptile care. Most keepers are content with the results of that particular housing style....some are not, so they should improve upon it, test it, then present their results.

Until the results are clear, it would seem better for some people to spend less time on forums argueing about who is right and wrong... instead they should spend more time concentrating on the captivity of their animals and learning from the greatest source of reptile care information....the animals themselves.

Just my general rambling for the week.........I was about due.

As for enclosure sizes, I am a big fan of large naturalistic enlcosures for all my caged pets.

However, with shy animals like BPs you have to be extremely careful to make sure the setup gives them the security they need. Lots of hides, visual barriers, etc.
I see that my snake utilizes all the space at night when I catch him all stretched out in it and it makes me happy I can give him the room he needs to do that. With a large enclosure I can have warm and cool water dishes, both large enough to bathe in comfortably if desired. The large enclosure also will provide plenty of room to get safely away from a regurge if *god forbid* that ever happens.

However, I keep an appropriately sized rubbermade tub sterilized and ready to house the snake should he ever have some kind of crisis that warrants a small, controlled environment.

Aim for your best, but prepare for the worst.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Until the results are clear, it would seem better for some people to spend less time on forums argueing about who is right and wrong... instead they should spend more time concentrating on the captivity of their animals and learning from the greatest source of reptile care information....the animals themselves.

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Best comment I have seen in quite a while.......Bravo.

i think i got lucky, my bp is puppy dog tame, loves his 30 long tank, (he knows every inch) is very social comes to me when i open the lid, likes his hides but he'll sit out in the open and lounge or climb up in a tree, i think he's realized he's in absolutely no danger necause of said examples and he's not nervous at all, he's also not head shy which is cool

got my male in a 125 and he eats like crazy and is very happy wandering his environment...

I will add one thing to this discussion.

A year ago. my husband and I were the proud owners of two adult BP, one male and one female. Both came to us by accident. We got the female first, and two years later the male. Both had been raised in large enclosures.

We kept the female in a 40 gallon long aquarium. Granted we did not know near as much as we do now, but we managed. Ursula was about 5' long, but we have no idea how heavy she we because we didn't have a scale. She ate 3 adult mice per week, which we now know is not enough, but she did ok. We misted her tank regularly to help with humidity, the plexiglas lid helped. She shed on schedule, and was very content. She spent time wandering around a bit at night, and her days in her log hide.

When the male came he had the same enclosure as her and both did well for another year. They never refused food [ no surprise ], and shed well.

Then we started thinking about getting a baby, and so we started researching husbandry. We found lots of information which led us to believe that our adults needed smaller tanks to be happy. So, we moved them from 40's to 29's. Pretty much identical except for being 18" shorter. We promptly sold the big tanks and stand since they took up a LOT of room.

Within a week both snakes started refusing food. We understood they needed an adjustment period and were ready to wait it out. However, the situation went from bad to worse. Both snakes got aggressive and nasty, they'd lunge and snap any time you went near the cages. We increased the food from 3 mice each to 4, but they still refused more than half of the time.

They stopped shedding well, and became impossible to hold. Before both had been puppy dog tame, now they were both like piranhas. We worked for 6 months to correct the situation, and nothing we did seemed to help.

Finally, we gave them to a breeder in the next state who was delighted to get them, and understood the reasons we were giving them up. He took them home, put them in 55 gallon enclosures, and never had another problem from either snake.

I firmly believe all thing beings equal, both snakes hated the smaller tanks, and that is why they got so nasty. When given their space back, the negative behavior stopped again.

Now, we have started over with babies, and are keeping them in small tubs like most people here recommend. All 5 babies seem happy and are healthy. The tubs are certainly easier to maintain. We plan on raising these guys in tubs as long as the snakes are happy that way. I think that perhaps in certain circumstances, some snakes are happier in larger enclosures. Just like I think a lot of snakes are happy in small enclosures.

Gale

Guys. This thread is from JULY 2007

If you wish to discuss this topic, you are better off making a new thread or just reading through it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Guys. This thread is from JULY 2007

If you wish to discuss this topic, you are better off making a new thread or just reading through it.

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HAHAHAHAHA, unfortunately most people just look at the thread title and not the actual date. Wow this is almost 3 years old.