Burn point...

Bearhart, in short a snake can live off what is recommended at Petco and other chain petstores that do not fill you up with the information found here. However the question that begs to be asked is, for how long? My very first snake was a praire king snake I got when I was 7. I had EVERYTHING Petco told me I needed or wanted. Not gonna lie I'm spoiled and got what I wanted for my snake. However it lived only till I was 12. I doubt 5 years is the expected length of time a king should live for, and I fed that snake every week and followed all the instructions my pet store had given me. I have also had several other friends that have had snakes at one point and time, and in most cases the snakes have not lived anywhere near as long as they should have, even when the owner thinks they are treating their snakes like kings. If you take the proper, in detail care, such as the information you'll find here, your snake will live considerably longer/healthier and ultimately happier life. So yes, a snake can live without all the fancy set-ups and gadgetry, but once again... for how long?

The scary thing is most of my friends think its normal for a snake to live such short lives. I mean, rats don't live that long, dogs/cats are considerably larger and dont live TOO much longer. But snakes should outlive 3 generations of cats... I am glad I can be such a nerd at times and I found this site when I decided to give snakes another try. Because now my snakes live in conditions that will hopefully see them happy for another 30+ years!

re-reading my post, it may not be very clear. The last paragraph is comparing the life of my first king to other animals. A mouse/rat only live a few years, dog generally 10-15, while a snake should live 20-30 years, maybe more.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

There are so many different tips and everybody assigns a different importance to each of them. I don't like discrepancies - especially when it comes to my Snakey.

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This is, of course, exactly right. Each and every person here has their own unique experiences to speak from, so you're not going to get the same answer from everyone. The thing is though, you should not WANT the same answer from everyone. Because there simply is no single right way to do this. Everyone's setup is unique, because the environment it is being kept in is unique. What works for my snake at my house might not work for yours. But it might...which is why I suggest different options that have worked for me. (In other threads, obviously...since this is my first post in this thread.)

Such differences aren't necessarily "discrepancies"...they're just different methods for achieving the same goal of providing a healthy home for your snake.

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You can get alot of high quality information off of this site but what concerns me are all the people who buy snakes every day and, for practical reasons, simply can't be educated to this level right there in the pet store.

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That's a concern for all of us...and is the precise reason why this site exists in the first place. We can't change what goes on in the tens of thousands of ordinary pet stores out there (and it's not just pet stores...there's plenty of "breeders," dealers and distributors that sell exotic animals without bothering to educate their customers on their care.)

So all we can do is be here in as visible and welcoming way as possible to help those who are willing to search for help in taking proper care of their animals.

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So, what I'm really searching for are the real fundamental points. The 60-second version of ball python care, so to speak.

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There IS NO such thing. As I'm sure you've seen...there are simply too many ways to achieve the same goal...plus too many different variables that need to be considered, to give anyone the "60-second verson of bp care." That's what the caresheet is for....and even that is just a guideline. It's not a holy writ of laws.

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This is why this particular issue is so interesting. Because its complicated and what alot of people here consider "essential" is nowhere near the average setup you walk out of the pet store with. So I wonder, how essential is it?

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The process of providing one's snake with the proper environment is only as complicated as one makes it. If one insists on pinching pennies and finding the "most economincal" way of achieving the bare minimum while maintaining an asthetically pleasing enclosure....then yeah...it may seem to be a complicated dance. But if one is willing to spend the money necessary for the most reliable equipment, and choose simplicity over "decor".....it's not that hard.

What I wonder...is why you compare what a pet store gives you with what experienced keepers suggest is necessary. You've read the horror stories of how utterly inept and uneducated most pet store employees are regarding the animals they sell....and how their whole point of being is to sell STUFF to you, regardless of how necessary or useful it is. So....why would you believe certain steps needed to achieve an optimum environment are NOT essential simply because the pet stores don't promote them?

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Or are these just a bunch of hard-core types that have standards that are not applicable to your more casual owner? Or, are these things essential but are there ways to address them that are cheaper and less complicated?

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You know....this last bit is really up to each and every keeper to decide. You can personally decide we're all just "hard-core" types who go above and beyond what is necessary just because we like to. OR....you can decide that you personally want to do what's best for the animals you have chosen to be responsible for.

How important is that responsibility to you? BP's are extremely hardy animals. They can live for years with no temperature gradients and can go for months without any food being tossed their way and slimy bowls of evaporating water. I've seen rescued animals that have lived for years wallowing in their own waste with either no additional temps provided, or uncontrolled heat that left severe burns. Some people just don't care because the animal still lives...so that's good enough.....right?

So...maybe I'm "hard core" because I not only want my animals to live....I want them to thrive.

All this is said simply in response to the words you posted. I'm not saying in any way that YOU neglect your animals or don't work to provide the best care you can.

In the end....with all the different methods and thoughts thrown out in a thread like this....it comes down to knowing who is talking to you and what they are saying. Do your own research from trusted sources like the Barkers and McCurley.....compare that to what some folks say here....read what the people here say and how they say it....and decide who you trust and who you don't. Then you'll know how to choose the gems of wisdom and good ideas out of the pile of rhinestones that is inevitable in any such public discussion.

So I wonder for a various reasons:

Firstly, the situation can be a bit frusterating and upsetting when you've been going along fine and then somebody tells you that you are not taking very good care of your snake. That is a personal reason.

Secondly, I'm concerned about snakes being sold everyday with setups that are supposedly very unheathly. You say "We can't do anything about the 10,000 pet stores out there" but I disagree. I think something can be done. For example, stores might be persuaded to provide care sheets once the customer declines the purchase of a book. Anything like this has a much higher chance of succeeding when they are simple and the recommendations can be implemented cheaply. What if I'm a poor kid that wants a snake?

So, its not that I doubt the recommendations of experienced keepers. I totally believe that they get great results. But, I'm also old enough to know that any hobby has a certain group of hard-cores that know tons and, ironically, become out of touch with the practicalities of the mainstream casual buyer. I'm in the video game business and this happens all the time. There is always a group of hardcore players that are extremely hard to satisfy, extremely vocal, but almost always are also a small fraction of the market.

I got alot of advice from the pet store when I got my snake but, in retrospect, I didn't get the most important information in that little 20 minute time period. So, is all of this effort and knowledge being built on this site being dispersed as well as it could be? Can you see the benefit of comprimising a little on the quality of the advice in exchange for reaching a wider audience that also may be more likely to come here and get even better info?

Finally, I'm just a hard-core type myself and I like the debate and I like learning every little detail. And, perhaps, I can eventually contribute to the "state-of-the-art" of BP knowledge!

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Bearhart, in short a snake can live off what is recommended at Petco and other chain petstores that do not fill you up with the information found here. However the question that begs to be asked is, for how long? My very first snake was a praire king snake I got when I was 7. I had EVERYTHING Petco told me I needed or wanted. Not gonna lie I'm spoiled and got what I wanted for my snake. However it lived only till I was 12. I doubt 5 years is the expected length of time a king should live for, and I fed that snake every week and followed all the instructions my pet store had given me. I have also had several other friends that have had snakes at one point and time, and in most cases the snakes have not lived anywhere near as long as they should have, even when the owner thinks they are treating their snakes like kings. If you take the proper, in detail care, such as the information you'll find here, your snake will live considerably longer/healthier and ultimately happier life. So yes, a snake can live without all the fancy set-ups and gadgetry, but once again... for how long?

The scary thing is most of my friends think its normal for a snake to live such short lives. I mean, rats don't live that long, dogs/cats are considerably larger and dont live TOO much longer. But snakes should outlive 3 generations of cats... I am glad I can be such a nerd at times and I found this site when I decided to give snakes another try. Because now my snakes live in conditions that will hopefully see them happy for another 30+ years!

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Good point Gooseman. I haven't seen anybody raise overall lifespan as a point before.

When I was learning, here's what I did. I had gone to petco for fish, and it turned out that they had an aggressive BP that needed to be adopted. I agreed to it, but only after going home, researching everything on the inernet, seeing about info "straight from the horse's mouth.." That is, from actual keepers. but being a herper before (I kept frogs and toads) I already knew that the pet stores are just usually out for a buck, and will sell over-glamorized versions of things you can make yourself. Not to mention, um.. pet stores keep their herps usually crowded into a sale tank.. bu then they tell you to house them seperately at home.. Hello. If they need seperate housing, why not, um, house them correctly at your store? I only shop at 2 local pet stores now, and it is because they practice what they preach in reptile housing.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So I wonder for a various reasons:

Firstly, the situation can be a bit frusterating and upsetting when you've been going along fine and then somebody tells you that you are not taking very good care of your snake. That is a personal reason.

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Agreed - Happened to me too. Once I understood they were genuinely acting out of concern for the animals I stopped shouting so much and started asking questions.:oops:

You got to that point a lot faster than I did by the way - well done.:D :P

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Secondly, I'm concerned about snakes being sold everyday with setups that are supposedly very unheathly. You say "We can't do anything about the 10,000 pet stores out there" but I disagree. I think something can be done. For example, stores might be persuaded to provide care sheets once the customer declines the purchase of a book. Anything like this has a much higher chance of succeeding when they are simple and the recommendations can be implemented cheaply. What if I'm a poor kid that wants a snake?

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Feel free to try, it annoys pretty much everyone on the site, but when the caresheets tell people they don't want or need the expensive stuff the pet shop is selling then they tend to stay in the box in a back storeroom.

There are shops out there already that are simply amazing and, if the customer seems to be about to avoid the book for monetary reasons, will give it to them for free in an attempt to help the animal. If I am buying something I try and find these places to give my money to in the hopes the others cease trading.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, its not that I doubt the recommendations of experienced keepers. I totally believe that they get great results.

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You sure?:P

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Originally Posted by bearhart

But, I'm also old enough to know that any hobby has a certain group of hard-cores that know tons and, ironically, become out of touch with the practicalities of the mainstream casual buyer. I'm in the video game business and this happens all the time. There is always a group of hardcore players that are extremely hard to satisfy, extremely vocal, but almost always are also a small fraction of the market.

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Doesn't make them wrong and video games don't die slowly and miserably or quickly and painfully as opposed to living long happy lives if you tailor your game to the lowest common denomenator.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I got alot of advice from the pet store when I got my snake but, in retrospect, I didn't get the most important information in that little 20 minute time period. So, is all of this effort and knowledge being built on this site being dispersed as well as it could be? Can you see the benefit of comprimising a little on the quality of the advice in exchange for reaching a wider audience that also may be more likely to come here and get even better info?

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No, not really. We can't make people look for the information but it is readily available on the net and in many good books if people try and look. I don't think making our information less precise or accurate would do anything but harm. There will always be bad information disseminated via old/bad books and caresheets and from people and petshops ( not all intentionally it must be stressed). Shops need to make money and to do that they need to sell things - sometimes that over-rides their better natures. Sometimes they don't know the current recomendations on keeping the animals and sometimes they disagree with them.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Finally, I'm just a hard-core type myself and I like the debate and I like learning every little detail. And, perhaps, I can eventually contribute to the "state-of-the-art" of BP knowledge!

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Cool - There is always so much to learn about these animals and their husbandry. The recomended way of keeping them when I started is almost completely different to what is recomended now and it's a wonder any of them survived some of the ideas going about in my day to be honest.

So recomendations evolve and, as mentioned earlier, there are varying opinions on a lot of details and current practices.


dr del

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dr del again.

It was bumpy there for a bit but this thread has developed into an enjoyable deep discussion. To a large extent I just don't like to do anything without a reason I understand and believe and I don't like conflicting infromation. Being a champion of reason, I like debates.

Also, when the data doesn't fit the model you need a new model. This is the other benefit of challenging things from time to time - it keeps people on their toes:

Over the course of the discussion I've made some adjustments. I've got the rheostat and I've backed the temperatures down so that they max at 95/96d. Those are a little high but nearly 10d lower than before. Snakey no longer cycles between warm and cold areas and has started to burrow down to the glass. So, at this moment I'm not entirely comfortable with the situation despite the fact that I'm much more in line with the "correct" procedures. I've mentioned this a couple of times and nobody seems to notice.

I'm fairly confident that my Accurite is giving me good readings. Is my snake's change in behavior a bad sign or not? Are there any other signs that one can look for to determine if their snake is truly as warm as it should/wants to be? I've also mentioned that he was flourishing before and nobody seems to want to address that. Am I to understand that he can be eating great, growing quickly, and be completely outwardly healthy all while his health is being comprimised by excessive temps? If so, how do you tell the difference?

So come on guys! Don't leave me hangin' here! Any ideas?

if you ask me this site is a godsend, i've learned so much here in the past couple weeks it'll make your head spin, also, if you can't put out the dough to do it right then why bother, im not saying your not doing this but just in general you see that alot everywhere, people trying to do it the cheapest way possible, my trials and errors have cost me an extra couple bucks,which reminds me anyone wanna buy a brand new rheostat? :)

Hi again,


Yes I see your point about evidence - but all evidence is subject to interpretation, I'll try and explain.

We (well at least I) did notice your description of your snakes behaviour but put a slightly different slant on it;

The hot end temp was too hot for him to stay in it for an extended period of time.:)

So you saw him cycling between that and the cool end all the time. Now it is comfortable enough for him to simply stay there when he feels his body temperature needs to be on the hot side. While mine do use both sides I usually know this because some mornings they are on the cool side and some mornings the hot - I do see them move every now and again but not all the time.

Yep your temps are now low enough that the intial reaction (jesus his snakes going to get burnt to bits) isn't an issue. As to him burrowing down to the glass that is a behaviour we always told you was likely and can you imagine what would have happened if he'd done it earlier?:eek:

I was thinking about how to explain the external/internal temp sense problem and have decided to use frying a fish in batter as an example.:P

If the fat is too cold it won't cook the batter and everything disintigrates, if the fat is too hot the batter burns while the fish in the middle is still raw. If you get it just right the batter and fish are both perfect.

Note: the previous 2 paragraphs may make no sense as I am a lousy cook.

He may just be one of those snakes who likes to be hot - but I doubt it in all honesty and would expect his behaviour to settle down over the coming weeks to what is considered normal (hiding and asleep almost all the time :P ).

As for not wanting to address that he was flourishing before I honestly didn't see that as an issue that needed addressing - he had the required temperature range to be able to flourish. He just had an extra 10- 15 degrees on top of it which could have caused a problem. Keeping animals is more often about spotting problems before they happen and avoiding them when it comes to setting habitats as animals have a distressing habit of doing things we consider dumb - and we're hardly perfect. As I keep pointing out Elvis ate cheeseburgers and he had the whole human sized brain thing going for him.

As an extreme example to clarify what I mean think of it like this;

A drunkard running around with a 12" razor sharp carving knife is a perfectly healthy and happy drunkard - till he trips.

How you tell the difference? You ask questions of, and listen to, people who have been doing it long enough to have seen a bleeding drunkard and worked out how to stop it happening again.

I also understand not liking conflicting information but as there is an element of art in animal husbandry it's always going to be a factor.

A "how to" book on painting may tell you you need a number 7 brush and a specific type of paint but we all know Rembrandt (sp?) could probably have bettered their example with a shovel and some horse dung.

Note: reference previous note- I cant draw either.


So, as a way forward for you, why not contact the big breeders/hobbyists in the industry and ask them for their opinions?

They are the people who truly know their animals best and have the experience you can't really argue with till you have the same.



dr del

Darn it Derek, another post I cannot rep.

Here is another way of explaining why your snake may seem healthy despite the extra heat. Lets look at what extra heat does to an organism aside from causing burns. One of the most common side effects of extra heat is a faster metabolism. A fast metabolism can be a problem for any animal on a fixed diet as it may not recieve enough nutrients to support the quickened metabolism and may cause mild to sever starvation in your animal. Now since you say your snakey seems to be flourishing one can imagine that your feeding schedule allows your snake to support the quickened metabolism. Now what happens when a abnormally fast metabolism is met with adequate food supply? Simple, abnormal growth. What you take to be healthy growth due to increase in size may in fact be very detrimental to your snakes overall health. Most likely the quickened growth rate will cause the body to make short-cuts in order to keep pace, just like your minimal wage construction workers. The skeletal structure will be weakened due to the inability for skeletal growth to keep up with muscular growth. Blood pressure rises, and organs are stressed and tumors are also a common side effect of abnormally rapid growth/metabolism. Now, other ball pythons may grow faster than your ball python, and they may be kept in proper temperatures, but that means their genes have determined they will grow fast. Genetics plays a key role. Now if you have a snake that should grow at a typical rate, yet it seems to be gaining size like a champ due to husbandry or other practices then problems are a definite possibility. Just like when we take steriods of human growth hormones to speed up our own growth. We just arnt meant to develop that quickly.

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Originally Posted by dr del

I was thinking about how to explain the external/internal temp sense problem and have decided to use frying a fish in batter as an example.:P

If the fat is too cold it won't cook the batter and everything disintigrates, if the fat is too hot the batter burns while the fish in the middle is still raw. If you get it just right the batter and fish are both perfect.

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Dr. Del, you're post sounds so defensive I feel bad. I apologize if I come accross that adversarial. Honestly, I don't think anybody on here is far off-base (if they are off-base at all). If I sound challenging it is only to elicit a more thorough response in the spirit of debate.

Your point about the temps being more tolerable leading to long stays in the warm hide makes perfect sense. In addition, the burrowing could simply be a side effect of the longer stays. But - this raises an interesting question: If we are shooting for the perfect temp then why the two hides for thermo regulating? Also, there is an implicit assumption here which is that a constant temperature is best. If my snake cycles to adjust his temperature to his liking then what basis is there for us to assume that we know better? It could very well be possible that temperature fluctuations drive some metabolic processes in BP's.

Gooseman, your suggestion that I may be creating a monster hell-spawn ball python is interesting. In fact, I had considered the metabolism angle myself. But, I did not assume it was negative. Regular exercise increases your metabolism to your benefit. Steroids artifically increase growth processes to your detriment. But, nits aside, I get your point.

So, aside from actual contact burns, it is still unclear to me what the symptoms of overheating are. Gooseman, you have suggested shortened lifespan but that is based on a single case of a snake of a different species, correct? That's not to invalidate your experience but it is a small "sample set".

I noticed that the vast majority of people on this site have relatively young snakes. It would be interesting to test the life-span question by polling people with the older snakes.

Right, it sounds exagerated, however you'd be surprised at how little excess growth can cause negative side-effects. The difference between a genetically large snake and a "normal" bp is not all that impressive a difference size wise, however causing a "normal" bp to grow at a rate typical of a bp with the genes to grow big can be detrimental to it's health. Not necessarily a monster hell-spawn ball-python. lol.

You have to remember that increases in metabolism are good when they can be controlled. However increasing metabolism based on heat rather than use (i.e. exercise) does have documented negative side effects.

Yes, that was my experience with a different species of snake. However it is not too difficult to see that these ranges do occur often. Think about it, even among ball pythons kept in fancy settings, the range of life expected is 20-30 years with some living up to 45+ years. Now imagine what the lifespan of a snake kept in sub par conditions? I highly doubt it reaches the 20 years at all.

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Also, there is an implicit assumption here which is that a constant temperature is best. If my snake cycles to adjust his temperature to his liking then what basis is there for us to assume that we know better? It could very well be possible that temperature fluctuations drive some metabolic processes in BP's.

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The colder the temperature, the slower the metabolic rate. That we know for sure... so why would a fluctuating metabolism be a good thing? I think Occam's Razor applies here. Why make assumptions when said assumptions aren't required? Unless you have evidence suggesting temp fluctuations are a good thing, it's probably wise to assume they aren't.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Dr. Del, you're post sounds so defensive I feel bad. I apologize if I come accross that adversarial. Honestly, I don't think anybody on here is far off-base (if they are off-base at all). If I sound challenging it is only to elicit a more thorough response in the spirit of debate.

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Hey I am as entitled as everyone else to have an off night.:P

And for the record I'm not so much defensive as frustrated by my apparent inability to explain these things correctly.:(

It's also because by concentrating on the fine details you seem to be missing some of the basic facts - let me interject comments into this paragraph to demonstrate what I mean.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

But - this raises an interesting question: If we are shooting for the perfect temp then why the two hides for thermo regulating?

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There is a basic misunderstanding right there that needs correcting - there is no perfect temp, there is a perfect temperature RANGE within which the snake chooses the temp required for the bodily processes occurring on a real time basis. Hence the need to provide the hides so that it does not have to choose between the security or the right temperature.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Also, there is an implicit assumption here which is that a constant temperature is best.

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There really isn't and I am at a loss to work out how you came to think there was. In fact nothing on this site would have given you that impression that I have ever seen.

Some keepers may choose to use a constant temperature but they usually do so following one of two reasons and conditions;

1) The temperature chosen is usually a compromise designed to maintain a certain metabolic rate to boost growth or appetite and done so in the knowledge it is artifically restricting the snakes natural lifestyle and patterns.

2) They occasionally do so to promote healing or boost the immune system by creating a "behavioural fever" in an animal that for some reason is not using this natural behaviour on its own.

In both cases they do so with a complex understanding of the needs of their animals and the risks they are running by restricting them. It is not something done lightly or commonly.

For some other species it may be common practice but not in any of the reptiles I have had the pleasure of keeping.:confused:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

If my snake cycles to adjust his temperature to his liking then what basis is there for us to assume that we know better? It could very well be possible that temperature fluctuations drive some metabolic processes in BP's.

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Now your getting it.:)

It drives them all, we don't know better, but knowing that, we provide the correct range for the snake to thrive.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, aside from actual contact burns, it is still unclear to me what the symptoms of overheating are.

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What that's not enough? You DID look at the pictures didn't you?:eek:

O.k. here's another symptom of overheating - rapid death.

I fostered a friends sinaloan milk snake for a couple of years while he was in New Orleans. I grew to love the little fella and the tank was beautifully set up to provide the right environment - thermostatically controlled, timed light cycles, lots of hiding places and totally escape proof.

Then he came home.

He asked for his snake back and I , reluctantly, agreed. Two days later he admitted his mother killed it within 24 hours.

She decided it might like some heat so moved the tank into to conservatory on a nice sunny day - apparently it was only just over an hour before he came home to one very dead snake.

If he had been sitting watching it I beleive he may have seen behavioural changes as the snake frantically tried to maintain a healthy internal temperature, neurological problems such as inability to control the body,convulsions and, if its final rest position is relevant, complete inversion onto its back and coma.

Now you might say that is an extreme example - and you'd be right.

A less extreme version would simply be the body's metabolism running too high for some of the internal processes to work efficiently causing stress on the whole system and possibly leading to illness and shortened lifespan as already discussed.

If kept too cold a snake may linger for a very long time slowly deteriorating but overheating can kill with devastating speed. For the record that doesn't mean you intentionally keep the snake cooler than recomended either.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Gooseman, you have suggested shortened lifespan but that is based on a single case of a snake of a different species, correct? That's not to invalidate your experience but it is a small "sample set".

I noticed that the vast majority of people on this site have relatively young snakes. It would be interesting to test the life-span question by polling people with the older snakes.

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Since the potential life span seems to be regarded as 45 years or thereabouts then I would say a small statistical sample is all anyone has to work with given the short time the hobby has been at the present level.

There are almost certainly studies going on that might provide some of the answers you seek but it will be decades before their results can be predicted as far as I know - if anyone knows different please jump in.


dr del

Just to pop in with a bit of information regarding your data on African temps.

Most ball pythons in the wild spend the majority of their time in huge and very complex termite mounds or in rat burrows. Through an incredible series of flues, tunnels and the movement of wet mud these termite mounds are kept at an almost perfect humidity level that suits a ball python very well. The temperature found during extensive studies in Africa, no matter the outside temps, is a steady 87 degrees. The termites do this because this is the correct temp and humidity that allows a certain mould to grow and this is what they live on.

Termite mounds become homes for a lot of different creatures which a ball python can happily prey upon.

African rat burrows have been found to maintain an almost perfect 85 degree temp, unaffected again by the outside temps. They are another favored choice for a ball python (after it of course has "evicted" the rattie residents).

What this allows is for the ball python to leave it's chosen "cool" burrow, use the warm outside temp as it needs to and have the ability to return to this stable environment at will. A natural "cool" spot that we mimic in captivity. :)

Recent studies using thermal imaging have shown how the python will go from it's burrow out to the warmer environment and gather the heat it needs before returning. Females on eggs have been shown to gather so much heat as to get almost to a critical point (far, far above what a non-incubating snake would do), then quickly return to their clutch so that heat can be passed on to the eggs.

Awesome!

Dr. Del - I was only asking about the symptoms of overheating because my snake had most definately never been burned despite the high temps. I assume that there might also be a condition caused by chronic overheating. That's what I was asking about. And, don't worry, you do a good job explaining yourself. I'm just a rigid thinker :-)

So, I was under the impression that low 90-s was more optimal and the cool hide was there to "cool off". It makes sense now if that warm side temp is actually a bit higher.

frankykeno, thanks for the details on African habitat. Its cool to understand the environment we're trying to replicate. I've been moving Snakey's cage design to more of a long hide (kind of like a tunnel) that covers the temp gradient. I think I'm going to develop that some more once I get the right supplies...