superball<3

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Perhaps I dont understand why this is such an issue for you. As long as the animal is healthly and you like the appearance what with this obessive need to know the minute details of its "bloodline" and as you call it?

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Because I've heard people complain that they bought a certain locality boa to breed with a same locality boa they already had, but when they bred them, 1/4 of the offspring proved to be crosses of a different local. I understand that this is not a hybrid exactly, but what a disappointment for that breeder. At least 1-2 seasons of waiting, breeding them, then finding out it wasn't a pure snake as you were told when you bought it. The breeder was strict about only working with locality boas, so she didn't even want to sell the father or any of the offspring. I don't ever want to spend years working on a project, finally hatch out a clutch or two or three, and watch as 1/4 of the offspring hatch out as stubby, freaky looking balls in blood bodies, because a cool looking male I bought turned out to be a blood cross.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Isnt a kind of directional selection going on over in Africa though? Anything that looks different is capatured and sent over to a developed country. Anything that's a possible morph is sent over here. That is likely to have a bottleneck effect on the population over in Africa.

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I never thought about that. It likely wouldn't have any affect on the wild population for a decade or two, but I'd imagine that it could have an some kind of effect.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Because I've heard people complain that they bought a certain locality boa to breed with a same locality boa they already had, but when they bred them, 1/4 of the offspring proved to be crosses of a different local. I understand that this is not a hybrid exactly, but what a disappointment for that breeder. At least 1-2 seasons of waiting, breeding them, then finding out it wasn't a pure snake as you were told when you bought it. The breeder was strict about only working with locality boas, so she didn't even want to sell the father or any of the offspring. I don't ever want to spend years working on a project, finally hatch out a clutch or two or three, and watch as 1/4 of the offspring hatch out as stubby, freaky looking balls in blood bodies, because a cool looking male I bought turned out to be a blood cross.

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To a certain extent I can sympathesize with this....but when you breed animals it's not like building an electronic device......you never know what you'll get out of cross to a certain extent. A lot of things could turn out unexcepted....birth defects, neurological disorders, etc. Those are much worst.....

BTW Good discussion!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

To a certain extent I can sympathesize with this....but when you breed animals it's not like building an electronic device......you never know what you'll get out of cross to a certain extent. A lot of things could turn out unexcepted....birth defects, neurological disorders, etc. Those are much worst.....

BTW Good discussion!

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I agree that birth defects would be worse than hatching a cross, but I'd be less upset knowing that it was no fault of controversial breeding practices (except in the case of inbreeding where a flaw is passes on from that point). This is a great discussion. Usually these hybrid debates turn into a giant S*** throwing competition. :D

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

What I don't think people understand about artificial selection is just how unconscious or happenstance it can be. This is probably due to teleological thinking and a kind of arrogant anthropomorphism that we all succumb to from time to time.

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Should be anthropocentrism rather than anthropomorphism.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Dogs have reliable pedegree information. If I want a 100% Husky, I can go buy one and be certain that it's 100% Husky. Reptiles breeders and buyers don't have this luxury. I wouldn't have a problem with creating hybrids in captivity, but it's been shown that some people are not responsible with them, and it only takes a few people to muck things up to the point of uncertainty from that point on. For example, when I was breeding corn snakes, I saw a cage full of candy cane corns for sale at a local pet shop. Had I not known better, I would have bought a female, bred it to my Amelanistic, and sold the offspring as Amels. The pet store didn't mention that they were rat/corn hybrids, so if I didn't know, my customers wouldn't have known, forever. Since this happens, there are now amels, snows, Anery A & B, etc., etc. that are emoryi crosses, and no one can be sure that any corn snake is not a cross. Was this the intention of the first producers of candy canes? I doubt it, but once one or two of them leave there facilities, it's history.

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Yes, and do you know why you feel 100% certain? The Canine industry developed registries BECAUSE the issues you have complaints about with dogs were becoming issues in the canine industry. And without paperwork, you can't know with ANY degree of certainty if a dog is a purebred or not.

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Not many, and not a super ball. Most of the hybrids created in captivity would never meet in the wild.

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Most of the morphs created in captivity would never meet in the wild. In fact, I'm willing to take bets that the Queen Bee (Pastel Spider Lesser Platinum) is a great deal more unlikely than several of the current hybrids.

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I'm talking more of buying animals that are sold as one species, when in reality they are hybrids. After a while, as with corns, even reputable breeders can't know for sure what blood a snake has.

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I don't agree... a reputable breeder isn't going to bring in a snake with questionable heredity.

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I can. Look at the Spider mutation. If Adam's correct, every spider and morph that has spider in it has a genetic neurological flaw.

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I do think Adam is correct... however that is really moot. As you said... EVERY Spider has that flaw, so reputable or not, if you have a spider it has the flaw.

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Again, once hybridizing a species becomes common, you can't be 100% sure what you are getting, even if it's from a reliable source.

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And once again, if you feel 100% comfortable buying a purebred dog, what's the issue with a snake?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Yes, and do you know why you feel 100% certain? The Canine industry developed registries BECAUSE the issues you have complaints about with dogs were becoming issues in the canine industry. And without paperwork, you can't know with ANY degree of certainty if a dog is a purebred or not.

I said you know only because of the generations of pedigree paperwork.

Most of the morphs created in captivity would never meet in the wild. In fact, I'm willing to take bets that the Queen Bee (Pastel Spider Lesser Platinum) is a great deal more unlikely than several of the current hybrids.

I said base morphs. Designer combos are obviously another story.

I don't agree... a reputable breeder isn't going to bring in a snake with questionable heredity.

Says you. I would have more faith in some than others, but without the heredity paperwork, you can't be 100% sure, since it is so common.

I do think Adam is correct... however that is really moot. As you said... EVERY Spider has that flaw, so reputable or not, if you have a spider it has the flaw.

Agreed, but this was a response to what you originally said. "Could you imagine one of the major breeders bringing in a genetically tainted BP, and selling the offspring as Ball Pythons?" I said, yes, I can imagine. Look at the Spider morph.

And once again, if you feel 100% comfortable buying a purebred dog, what's the issue with a snake?

Like I said, I'd only be comfortable breeding dogs if I had AKC pedigrees for my parent stock. That's not an option w/ snakes, so hybrids make me uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I said you know only because of the generations of pedigree paperwork.

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Exactly.

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I said base morphs. Designer combos are obviously another story.

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Then IMHO, designer morphs are equally (if not more) unethical than hybriding. I, of course, don't see anything unethical with either, but the point stands... hybriding is a great deal more likely to occur in the wild than designer morphs.

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Says you. I would have more faith in some than others, but without the heredity paperwork, you can't be 100% sure, since it is so common.

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And there are a lot of breeders that provide heredity paperwork... only buy from them.

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Agreed, but this was a response to what you originally said. "Could you imagine one of the major breeders bringing in a genetically tainted BP, and selling the offspring as Ball Pythons?" I said, yes, I can imagine. Look at the Spider morph.

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Ummm... Are Spiders Ball Pythons or not? You're comparing apples and oranges. A tainted genepool is NOT anything near the same as a genetic flaw. First of all... one is intentionally created, one isn't.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Then IMHO, designer morphs are equally (if not more) unethical than hybriding. I, of course, don't see anything unethical with either, but the point stands... hybriding is a great deal more likely to occur in the wild than designer morphs.

A designer morph can be bred to a WC and you will get normal ball pythons that are still 100% ball pythons. I don't know of anyone who would be the least bit upset if they accidentally hatched out an albino while trying for a clutch of normals. This isn't the case with hybrids. Once a hybrid, every decendant will be a cross, and weird things could pop up on unsuspecting breeders that would make a lot of people very upset.

And there are a lot of breeders that provide heredity paperwork... only buy from them.

But with no official organization to oversee the paper work, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. Look at TSE w/ all their microchipped hets w/pictures and paperwork. Again it comes down to finding a breeder you trust, and taking his word that he is properly representing his animals, and trusting that all parent stock was accurately represented when he bought them. Again, I think TSE was one of these trustworthy breeders at one point.

Ummm... Are Spiders Ball Pythons or not? You're comparing apples and oranges. A tainted genepool is NOT anything near the same as a genetic flaw. First of all... one is intentionally created, one isn't.

I'm not sure I understand what we are talking about with this last one. :)

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

A designer morph can be bred to a WC and you will get normal ball pythons that are still 100% ball pythons. I don't know of anyone who would be the least bit upset if they accidentally hatched out an albino while trying for a clutch of normals. This isn't the case with hybrids. Once a hybrid, every decendant will be a cross, and weird things could pop up on unsuspecting breeders that would make a lot of people very upset.

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Actually, there's no such thing as 100%. What if a blood bred to a ball and over the generations the offspring bred back to other balls. At what point would the traits of the blood no longer be recognizable? So if a WC was actually the decendant of a hybrid... IT will also be a cross, even if not a recognizable one.

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But with no official organization to oversee the paper work, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. Look at TSE w/ all their microchipped hets w/pictures and paperwork. Again it comes down to finding a breeder you trust, and taking his word that he is properly representing his animals, and trusting that all parent stock was accurately represented when he bought them. Again, I think TSE was one of these trustworthy breeders at one point.

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The canine industry didn't suddenly have an official organization... it began by people having the same qualms as you and putting in a LOT of effort to start an accepted "overseer" of purebreds.

Now, one thing is clear, TSE was and is not trustworthy... whether or not they were trusted is more subjective. I didn't trust them, because their prices screamed "We are a snake mill." Other people chose to trust them... that's thier thing.

However, honestly, do you think Ralph, Greg, Kara and Kevin or any of the other big boys are going to even unknowingly sell a snake for something it isn't? If so... well there's nothing that's going to convince you. I personally don't. Hybrids are still in the early stages, and once they become more prolific, it's only going to mean reputation means MORE in this business. And sorry, but I don't think any of them... or even the medium sized breeders like Adam are going to risk their entire reputation (and, therefore, their business) on buying a questionable animal from a questionable seller.

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I'm not sure I understand what we are talking about with this last one.

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I'm saying Spiders aren't a good example... they are still ball pythons so comparing them to hybrids is apples and oranges. The fact that they have a genetic abnormality isn't going to change that... and a GOOD breeder isn't going to sell a really spinny Spider.

Now that is one bad looking snake there. Are they easy to get to breed together?

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Actually, there's no such thing as 100%. What if a blood bred to a ball and over the generations the offspring bred back to other balls. At what point would the traits of the blood no longer be recognizable? So if a WC was actually the decendant of a hybrid... IT will also be a cross, even if not a recognizable one.

It would be HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a blood and a ball would meet in the wild in Africa, breed and hatch viable young that went on to breed back to balls for several generations. And if it did happen, that's nature, and there's nothing controversial that any human did to mess with a gene pool.

The canine industry didn't suddenly have an official organization... it began by people having the same qualms as you and putting in a LOT of effort to start an accepted "overseer" of purebreds.

Sure, but it exists, and they are strict. I have much more faith buying a purebred dog w/ AKC pedigree papers than an amelanistic corn snake with papers.

Now, one thing is clear, TSE was and is not trustworthy... whether or not they were trusted is more subjective. I didn't trust them, because their prices screamed "We are a snake mill." Other people chose to trust them... that's thier thing.

But look how easy it is to forge paperwork in the reptile community.

However, honestly, do you think Ralph, Greg, Kara and Kevin or any of the other big boys are going to even unknowingly sell a snake for something it isn't? If so... well there's nothing that's going to convince you. I personally don't. Hybrids are still in the early stages, and once they become more prolific, it's only going to mean reputation means MORE in this business. And sorry, but I don't think any of them... or even the medium sized breeders like Adam are going to risk their entire reputation (and, therefore, their business) on buying a questionable animal from a questionable seller.

I don't think that any of these people would do anything questionable, but as Adam has said w/the spiders. A lot of big breeders at first, and for quite some time, claimed that their spiders had absolutely no neurological disorders, even when most of them probably knew better. Whether spiders were originally not outcrossed from the first import, to the point that every spider is now stuck with this gene, or if it is just part of being a spider, the fact remains that breeders large and small knew that there was something not quite right about the spiders they were breeding and producing. But many of them continued to produce and sell spiders while claiming that they had a group that didn't have the defect. I bought one of these last year, and it wobbles.

I'm saying Spiders aren't a good example... they are still ball pythons so comparing them to hybrids is apples and oranges. The fact that they have a genetic abnormality isn't going to change that... and a GOOD breeder isn't going to sell a really spinny Spider.

I think I understand what we're talking about now. I was comparing how a lot of spiders were misrepresented, even by reputable breeders. Even if a breeder bought a pair that didn't visabally wobble, the gene is there forever, just like hybrid offspring are crosses for several generations, and never really pure. Basically, if breeders were buying, breeding and selling spiders while either believing or just claiming that the defect wasn't an issue with their stock, how can we be sure that desendants of hybrids won't find theie way into collections unknowingly? It's not important to everyone, but it's very important for some people. That said, hybrids worry me.

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EDIT: If I mis quoted Adam in any way let me know so a mod can edit my post.

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Originally Posted by sassygirl221983

Now that is one bad looking snake there. Are they easy to get to breed together?

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No, it's hard to get them to successfully breed and produce offspring. That's why even if a blood wondered over to Ghana :rolleye2: , it's not likely there would ever be viable offspring produced in the wild :D

i dont see why they would be called "superballs" though.

they should be called blood balls.

balls and blood...all a guy needs in life:D

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Originally Posted by Snakeman

i dont see why they would be called "superballs" though.

they should be called blood balls.

balls and blood...all a guy needs in life:D

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:rockon: Excellent point. Perfect timing for a little comic relief.

Mendel's balls & Justin,
As we've all learned from several similar forum threads, none of us is likely to change anyone's mind on the ethics of hybridizing reptiles. I do enjoy the discussion and debate, and I hope others will get involved and share their views on the subject. I really do like the looks of a lot of hybrid snakes (excluding the Angolan ball, and the GTP/carpet hybrids, and the superball is cool for a blood, but does nothing for balls imho), and as I said, I would love to play around with king/corn/milk hybrids, as well as GTP/Macklott's or white lip hybrids. I think there are some awesome looking hybrids, and my curiosity and personality fit perfect for someone who should be spending years and years working on hybrid projects. I just feel that the possability and probability of hybrids falling into someone's hands who is either too irresponsible, or simply too ignorant to represent the animals correctly, even if it's far down the genetic line, is too much of a risk to the entire hobby to begin such a project. I wouldn't be able to keep every snake from every generation and I couldn't find the sand to cull any healthy snake, so I stick to my ethics and avoid dealing with hybrids altogether. I wish someone could change my mind, but I understand people's ethics and fears, so at this point I can't ever see myself getting into the hybrid hobby. I just simply fear the future of each species, such as the carpets and corns, and don't want to play a part in jeopardizing the genetic makeup of any species. Maybe if I found a cobra or indigo owner who would take my leftovers for snakefood I'd start a new hobby, but I'd have to freeze them myself to rid my fears, and I don't know if I could do it.