incubator will be built :)

If she put water into the tubs today, and didn't strive to make sure the water was the same temp as the incubator, the water will cause a temp differential. Its going to take quite a while for the water temp to equalize completely with the air temp in the incubator, especially since it is somewhat insulated from the incubator by the sealed tubs (no air exchange). Until the water temperature reaches the same temp as the incubator, condensation is to be expected!

Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

If she put water into the tubs today, and didn't strive to make sure the water was the same temp as the incubator, the water will cause a temp differential. Its going to take quite a while for the water temp to equalize completely with the air temp in the incubator, especially since it is somewhat insulated from the incubator by the sealed tubs (no air exchange). Until the water temperature reaches the same temp as the incubator, condensation is to be expected!

Steve

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It might but the water would be on the outside of the egg boxes (which already have condensation)...so she shouldn't get any on the outside as the outside is what needs to come up.

If there was no water anywhere I would agree completely with you.:)

Wow; this is much more in-depth than I thought by looking at photos and make-your-own incubator instructions!
I had put the water into the tubs last night around 10pm. I guess that since they are further from the heating element, they will never get as warm as the water in the bottles along the bottom, or the air temp?
Maybe I should just go with vermiculite in the boxes? i wanted to go substrateless but if it is too humid, wouldn't it be akin to using overmoistened vermiculite? Though the eggs will not come into contact with the water underneath the rack in the tub, it would still create all of this condensation..
The humidity in the incubator itself is at 80 percent according to my hygrometer (a seperate unit from the thermometer.)

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

The humidity in the incubator itself is at 80 percent according to my hygrometer (a seperate unit from the thermometer.)

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Do you have open water in the incubator itself? I am curious why your humidity is so high if you don't.

Everything (boxes and all) should all get to the same temp (you have an almost identical setup to me...including doing no substrate)...but you might be getting hotspotting that is causing the issue...you might have to break down and get a fan. (The substrateless setup doesn't have anything to do with this)

I added in a tub atop of the FW that is open and half-full of water, to help equalize the humidity disparity. I actually used water from the two bottles that it displaced, so that it would be roughly the same temperature (I did it quickly to prevent cooling.)
A fan would be no problem; I could just get one of those small computer fans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I added in a tub atop of the FW that is open and half-full of water, to help equalize the humidity disparity. I actually used water from the two bottles that it displaced, so that it would be roughly the same temperature (I did it quickly to prevent cooling.)
A fan would be no problem; I could just get one of those small computer fans.

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OK...so what is the temp difference now (box vs. incubator)?

Cool news; the helix temp is 89 (what I set it at) and the tub is 88; they have not been this close yet. :) We'll see; I am home all evening and night and will keep an eye on things.

sean i know you're trying to help, but you should try listening to others as well before you write them off because to be quite honest brad was in no way wrong no matter what you think. condensation is formed by air cooling and not being able to hold humidity as it could when it was warmer (dewpoint). the condensation in the container is caused by convection, which generates currents in both air and water in a closed container which causes differences in pressure, temperature and humidity. not saying i know all either considering i am in no way an expert or even close, but if you would just listen to others and consider what they have to say before writing them off. this is also important to consider for this topic since condensation is quite the problem for developing eggs.

So theoretically, if the temps are the same in the tub and in the outer incubator area, would the condensation cease?
I hope so.

in air 100% humidity means that it is in equilibrium and is fairly static, this doesn't mean not moving it just means that the changes between gas and liquid equal out. but once it levels out condensation will be less of a problem, but i think adam has said before that he keeps his eggs away from the sides of egg boxes? also i think it's been said before that late in development condensation will start to form again due to eggs giving off their own heat...i think.
the only thing i've ever incubated are leopard gecko eggs, so eggs this large i'm not sure about

*think about a water bottle that you've left in the sun, at first the condensation will be crazy, but eventually once things level out, there's just sort of a fine mist on the sides.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

sean i know you're trying to help, but you should try listening to others as well before you write them off because to be quite honest brad was in no way wrong no matter what you think. condensation is formed by air cooling and not being able to hold humidity as it could when it was warmer (dewpoint). the condensation in the container is caused by convection, which generates currents in both air and water in a closed container which causes differences in pressure, temperature and humidity. not saying i know all either considering i am in no way an expert or even close, but if you would just listen to others and consider what they have to say before writing them off. this is also important to consider for this topic since condensation is quite the problem for developing eggs.

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First off I was in no way saying Brad was wrong...if you read my posts what I was saying was that there is more than one way in which an enclosed space with high levels of humidity could cause condensation. Like you say above a closed container causes convection which is a differnce in pressure this pressure tries to equalize with an outside force of different pressure - this air movement will also cause condensation.

I stated I agreed with Brad on a way condenstation could occur just not in this case and I stated why. I based my responses on what I was told on this forum about my situation (which is the same as what Gin is going through)...it resolved my issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

in air 100% humidity means that it is in equilibrium and is fairly static, this doesn't mean not moving it just means that the changes between gas and liquid equal out. but once it levels out condensation will be less of a problem, but i think adam has said before that he keeps his eggs away from the sides of egg boxes? also i think it's been said before that late in development condensation will start to form again due to eggs giving off their own heat...i think.
the only thing i've ever incubated are leopard gecko eggs, so eggs this large i'm not sure about

*think about a water bottle that you've left in the sun, at first the condensation will be crazy, but eventually once things level out, there's just sort of a fine mist on the sides.

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I agree but what you describe are the two different ways condensation can occur. Also I am fairly certain that 100% humidity doesn't mean equilibrium but the saturation of the air (how much moisture the air can hold). The leveling out that you talk about is what I believe is happening in Gin's case the air inside vs outside is equalizing.

Then your point about eggs is also true (what Brad was talking about) the increaese the temp of the eggs creates a condensation as the eggs have a different temp then the surrounding eggs.

I love your water bottle analogy...but what happens why you open the hot bottle...if sealed competely it will have become pressurized (very little but you will still hear it usually)...if not sealed the bottle will actually shrink somewhat...these are the gas exchanges you are referring to.

It is all good and Brad and my discussions were to help all.

Brad if I came off to strong my apologies as I didn't mean to. Just discussing options :D

it sounded a little dismissive to me, but no matter, i was no part of that, the real test is if brad felt that way.
saturation=equilibrium

I am just really worried about potential condensation dripping onto the eggs. i cannot lose another clutch due to my own error; I think I would just kill myself.

Build a little sloping roofed tent over the eggs out of plastic coated wire and a poly bag? I'm only slightly kidding by the way.



dr del

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I am just really worried about potential condensation dripping onto the eggs. i cannot lose another clutch due to my own error; I think I would just kill myself.

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If it becomes that much of an issue, you can lay a paper towel over the eggs in the box to catch any droplets of water falling from above.

OK.. I am hoping that the condensation stabilizes; I am not touching it for a few hours and then I will go peek in.. I should have installed a window, and just might into the lid.. :)

gin, i would mix up the vermic and set your boxes up. make sure they are airtight. the vermic will act like a heat sink and help keep the boxes stable. let the helix run, eventually everything will even out close enough. if your bator is over 3-4 ft tall, i'd add a small fan, 30 cfm's or less.


i'd set the helix to 88, better to error on the cool side, imo.

let the helix do it's thing, give it a day or two to stabilize.


good luck.


vaughn

The window is definately one of the best ideas I've heard - I intend to retro fit one to mine. If only I could fit a small light inside as well but not possible with the design I have at the moment.



dr del

del, led ligthing very very tiny and no heat output!:D



vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

del, led ligthing very very tiny and no heat output!:D



vaughn

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Great idea...this is what I have in mine too:D

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Originally Posted by kavmon

del, led ligthing very very tiny and no heat output!:D

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:D

It's not the heat its the 100% humidity in my incubator at all times and the resultant water running down the walls.:)

Even on battery power it doesn't sound like a good idea.


dr del

the bator doesn't need to be that humid, inside of a sealed egg box is where the magic happens!


a sealed egg box, a good mix of vermiculite and a good stat and your golden.

i've learned the ways straight from the jedi himself:bow:



vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

:D

It's not the heat its the 100% humidity in my incubator at all times and the resultant water running down the walls.:)

Even on battery power it doesn't sound like a good idea.


dr del

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I use blue versions in my salt water tanks...after a couple of years they have salt all over them are constantly wet and still work...I wouldn't worry about the humidity. :)

Yup.


This my old incubator - I do plan to replace it though.

At the moment all my egg boxes have mesh sections in the lids and in theory I could dipense with the vermic and just use egg crate for them to sit on in the boxes.

Keeping my eyes peeled for old glass fronted fridges as I wander the highways and byeways. :)

dr del

this thread hurts my head....

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I am not touching it for a few hours and then I will go peek in.. I should have installed a window, and just might into the lid.. :)

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Gin,
a peek window is key, they really help out. I have one cut into the door of my freezer. You just eed to cut a small square and glue on a piece of plexi glass.. you can get it cheap at lowes, they will cut it to size for you.

.. you cant keep peeking or the temps are going to never equal out and you will be chasing your tail.

condensation is not bad unles it is dripping on you eggs. Once everything stabalizes the humidity will decrease some, but you have to stop letting out all of that air that has already heated up. With incubators that open from the top like yous does, hot air comes rushing out and cool room air will come pouring in. So no more peeking.. use the force, trust your thermometers

good luck... keep us posted

ok :) Today it is 87 at the helix probe and 87 in the tub! I peeked in Slightly and there is still condensation, but i was not thinking that it'd disappear magically or something.

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Originally Posted by SnakeEyes

this thread hurts my head....

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Why? The people on this thread have been very helpful and indsepensable with helping me out here.. it is not like I can call someone with verbal instructions/help with my stupid cell phone (Razr's get the worst signal on earth..)
Threads that hurt my head personally, are those filled with misspelled words, Internet "speak" and blurry photos.

This has been a very educational thread. I hope to refer to it when I start breeding in a couple of years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

ok :) Today it is 87 at the helix probe and 87 in the tub! I peeked in Slightly and there is still condensation, but i was not thinking that it'd disappear magically or something.

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]


Great to hear it leveled out. I cant wait till you get some eggs in there. Any coming soon?

This thread really brings up a valid point that anyone thinking of building their own incubstor should really have it set up at least a week before your eggs are due so you can work out any issues. It really would suck to lose a batch of eggs because of not getting the incubator right...

good luck and keep us posted

haha, im not talking about them not helpping, I'm referring to all the science and all the talk going on here, but I def agree, this thread has been one of the best ones I have read about how to make an incubator. should sticky it.

The temps and humidity have both stabilized; good news for me :)
I need to reiterate something here. Someone commented on me, that I would never "get it" regarding hatching eggs..
I tried my best. I bought the hovabator thinking that it'd work, and the thing spiked on me and killed the eggs. What better could I have done, I don't know. I am here trying to learn this quickly because the incubators i had failed me.
This was in a PM, not on the regular board. The only reason I brought it up is to let whoever posted it know, that I forgive you and maybe you do not know the full story.
All that aside, I am glad that this incubator is all ready. Ginger had her prelay shed after May first, and Bela shed last week.. just a waiting game now :)

Hi peeps,
I have a quick question,
The internal tubs are air tight, so how often would you need to open them to refresh the air? As the eggs need to respire.
Cheers
Graham

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Originally Posted by Grimmie

Hi peeps,
I have a quick question,
The internal tubs are air tight, so how often would you need to open them to refresh the air? As the eggs need to respire.
Cheers
Graham

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About once a week at first...then towards the end every few days. I also depends on how much "air" is in the container. Larger containers hold more so they can be opened less often. :)

I just wanted to add, that later on, I will post pics of the incubator and setup within; I feel so ingrateful for not doing so after all of the help I was given!
I went with the perlite and water mixture underneath the flourescent-light grid stuff in the egg boxes.

I am still waiting on Ginger's eggs, and Bela will be after her in the laying department. I hated to be doing this at such a last-minute project, but I thought that my hovabator was OK to use, and when it spiked on me (that has to be what killed Foxy's clutch this year) I knew that I could not trust it, even with the thermostat.