Ball x Burm - Looks like it has been accomplished

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Wise man once said, if you smell poo, there's probably a pile of it nearby.

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I thought it was:

Wise man once said, if you smell poo, check your shoes. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I thought it was:

Wise man once said, if you smell poo, check your shoes. ;)

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No if it smells like poo stop scratching there.. LOL :8:

old Chinese proverb:

Man who go to bed with itchy butt.
Wake up with stinky finger... LOL :banned1:

Alright...somehow I managed to find his picture gallery. The breeder, whose webpage is http://www.schlangenfrank.de has a gallery here: http://www.schlangenfrank.de/bilder/diashow/index.htm

German lesson for today: Gallery = Bildergalerie

Photos 034-039 are dated June 5, 2007.

The so called burm x ball hybrid photos are dated May 5, 2007.

I think its safe to say that they came from a different clutch.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Alright...somehow I managed to find his picture gallery. The breeder, whose webpage is http://www.schlangenfrank.de has a gallery here: http://www.schlangenfrank.de/bilder/diashow/index.htm

German lesson for today: Gallery = Bildergalerie

Photos 034-039 are dated June 5, 2007.

The so called burm x ball hybrid photos are dated May 5, 2007.

I think its safe to say that they came from a different clutch.

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Does he have a time machine? LOL

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Does he have a time machine? LOL

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There was also a shot of his Flux Capacitor in another gallery.

I believe they list the day - month - year. So it's May 5 and 6.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I believe they list the day - month - year. So it's May 5 and 6.

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I see that now...good catch...still smells funny though.

Where are the breeding pics. Just photos of a burm then the so called hybrid..Somethings stinks here.

I can see the "ball" influence on the "normal" one, but I really don't see it in the albino. Clutches can have multiple sires though. :confused:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I think its safe to say that they came from a different clutch.

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Something is fishy...if you look closely at the "normals" you will notice they are 2 different snakes. Also, his pictures indicate they are all "Burmballs" or "Burmball Albinos" I think he is trying to say they all came from the same clutch...considering the original post said he had 1.1 burm and 1.1 ball in the same cage...so only 1 female ball was involved. Which makes albino questionable at best. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Where are the breeding pics. Just photos of a burm then the so called hybrid..Somethings stinks here.

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Well there isn't any, he kept all 4 animals in the same cage and I don't think he observed copulation. Of course I wouldn't know for sure, my german is a little rusty. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Where are the breeding pics. Just photos of a burm then the so called hybrid..Somethings stinks here.

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I also noted the cage with the albino burm...only had the albino in it (where are the other ones)...and it appeared way to small for 3 other snakes (along with water and such).

Sounds like a load to me.

Hey I happened to accidentally breed a hybrid, and not only that a homogeneous recessive version of that hybrid and all by accident.. is more than likely a dwarf burm het for albino bred to a albino burm.. just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Something is fishy...if you look closely at the "normals" you will notice they are 2 different snakes. Also, his pictures indicate they are all "Burmballs" or "Burmball Albinos" I think he is trying to say they all came from the same clutch...considering the original post said he had 1.1 burm and 1.1 ball in the same cage...so only 1 female ball was involved. Which makes albino questionable at best. :colbert:

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I agree, there are 2 different snakes pictured. But they don't say how many or what all was produced in the clutch. I don't think the albino is a ball/burm hybrid. But like I stated in the other post, more than one male can sire a clutch. I think there is alot to be questioned, but can't be discredited yet.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I agree, there are 2 different snakes pictured. But they don't say how many or what all was produced in the clutch.

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I looked again and now I see 3 "normals"...if you look at the neck patterns on each you will see they are different.

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I don't think the albino is a ball/burm hybrid. But like I stated in the other post, more than one male can sire a clutch. I think there is alot to be questioned, but can't be discredited yet.

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I agree...him calling the albino a hybrid throws everything into question.;)

He probably doesn't know. Hey, he's keeping 4 different snakes of two different species in the same cage, how knowledgable can he be?

Females can lay clutches that were sired by mutiple fathers, it happens all the time. So, yes I can see the possibility that a female albino (or het albino) burm could drop a clutch that had both a male albino(or het) burm and a male ball python as the fathers.

That odd patterned one doesn't look like either a burm or ball pattern, I think it's possible that one could be a hybrid, however that pic of the baby albino looks like pure burm to me. But taking the above into account, I think it's possible that they could be from the same clutch, but have different fathers.

Mark

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Sounds like a load to me.

Hey I happened to accidentally breed a hybrid, and not only that a homogeneous recessive version of that hybrid and all by accident.. is more than likely a dwarf burm het for albino bred to a albino burm.. just my two cents.

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Just curious as to where you came up with that at. This guy obviously isn't too bright from the start so I doubt he would spend the HUGE $$$ it would take to get a dwarf burm in the first place let alone a het albino dwarf burm.

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Originally Posted by Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

Just curious as to where you came up with that at. This guy obviously isn't too bright from the start so I doubt he would spend the HUGE $$$ it would take to get a dwarf burm in the first place let alone a het albino dwarf burm.

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I agree was just a thought..

IF these are genuine then i just think :puke: on these hybrids , i dont like them tbh...not my thing hybrids , natural intergration (Jungle x Diamonds and others for example) is fair enough imo as its a happens naturally in the wild but burmballs , superballs etc is just http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/smilies/crazy.gif id never own a hybrid myself but whatever floats your rubber ducky http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/images/smilies/lol.gif

Yeah I dont think I could beleive the albino hybrid until I see breeding pics. I also dont like the concept of hybrids in most animals due to some being sterile are messing up the gene pool of most of its species.
Nick Sloan

:disbelief :eek: wow I think inbreeding anytime type of snake to another type is wrong. People should be shot for deforming snakes like that. I almost sheaded a tear when I seen a ball python mixed with a borneo. This whole breeding to get differ morph is fine, but when you breed to make deformality then thats f**** nuttz!!!

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Originally Posted by crisstyle21

:disbelief :eek: wow I think inbreeding anytime type of snake to another type is wrong.

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so basically you mean outbreeding to hybridize, not inbreeding, inbreeding is how you get recessive morphs within a species by breeding related animals together... in no way related to breeding two snakes of different species.

*and technically breeding for a morph is breeding for a deformity or a mutant, many times a lot of people forget this...

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

*and technically breeding for a morph is breeding for a deformity or a mutant, many times a lot of people forget this...

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So true...something else I think most people forget about is what effect repeatative imbreeding causes on other "systems" within the snake. We think of genes as affecting mainly color or pattern but in truth most genes control other system...so what long term affect does this "breed for morphs" have on the overall health of a particular animal?

In truth we won't know for some time...the "first" morph, the Albino, was only discovered 15 years ago (I assume the original animal is still alive?) and for a species cabable of living 20+ years we will have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

so basically you mean outbreeding to hybridize, not inbreeding, inbreeding is how you get recessive morphs within a species by breeding related animals together... in no way related to breeding two snakes of different species.

*and technically breeding for a morph is breeding for a deformity or a mutant, many times a lot of people forget this...

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Thanks for bringing up this crucial distinction.

What most people seem to worry about is something called outbreeding depression......

The Wikipedia Article is pretty good.....if you read it you'll see things aren't always so simple and black and white when it comes to inbreeding or outbreeding.

Having too much of either is usually a recipe for disaster for a population....this is why we have the terms inbreeding and outbreeding depression.

glad you got here mendel, haha perfect topic for your interests. One question, when is hybrid vigor true, I was gonna ask even before I read that article but it said only 1st gen animals show hybrid vigor. Isn't it common in all generations of more closely related species? or am I just wrong.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

glad you got here mendel, haha perfect topic for your interests. One question, when is hybrid vigor true, I was gonna ask even before I read that article but it said only 1st gen animals show hybrid vigor. Isn't it common in all generations of more closely related species? or am I just wrong.

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It probably depends on the two species involved. Two factors
come to mind:

(1) how closely related the two parent species are to one another

(2) how intricate the genetic machinery is to begin with....if there are a lot of novel coadapted gene complexes in each species...they may not be able to mesh very well.

Hope that helps......

oh god, we are gonna see the snakes ban together and have a "BP Morph Rights Movement"...hey, the find the original Albino they can make a trilogy movie collection out of it.