I might get in trouble

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wolfy-hound again.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I seriously wish that more people thought like you in that statement! The world would be a much less hostile, war-filled place.

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Thank you Gen!:D

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Actually, the founders had nothing to do with writing the pledge. Francis Bellamy wrote it in 1892, and "under God" was not even part of it. That wasn't added until 1954, by Congress. And it was added as a way to impart hatred and intolerance of Communists and atheists due to the Red Scare.
Furthermore, "In God We Trust" wasn't added to coins until 1864.

No one is telling you that you can't say "under God", just know the actual history behind what you are saying.

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Point taken. As to time line. Ok so coins has only been a little over hundred years and the pledge has only been 50 yrs. Still why all the beef over it now?
Hasn't been a real issue until the last oh about 10-15 yrs.
My real point was if you are in to God good if your not then don't say it.
Why do people who choose to say God or Merry Christmas or what the heck have to be made to feel like they are wrong and they have to walk on egg shells?
Case in point here in Va. There was a school who sold paver bricks w/ your name on it to help pay for some school const work. They offered bricks w/ many symbols as well as your name ie a cross, a star of David, a sun etc.
Someone purchased one w/ their name and a cross on it and ONE person out of the 15-1800 kids that went there complained they didn't like to have to walk on the walk and see a brick w/ a cross because they didn't worship God.
So the school was forced to remove it even tho the other oh couple of thousand people had no problem with it.
My point is we all have rights. Get over it. Experience it and move on.
Isn't there really way more important things in this world to focus on than that ?
You shouldn't be forced or encouraged to say one or the other. Say what ever it is that you celebrate and move on.

Sorry, but all this PC crap gives me a pain in my you know what.

im not offended at all about the whole merry christmas vs. happy holidays thing.if people say merry christmas to me, i say it back. if they say happy holidays, i say that back to them. but either way people shouldnt take these two sayings seriously as if their life depended on it.

I always say "Merry Christmas". Christmas is the most important holiday for Christians (other than Easter), while hanukkah is not an overly important holiday for Jews, and people who celebrate Kwansa are a good portion Christian, while Muslims don't have an important holiday near Christmas. I don't think wishing anyone, regardless of their personal beliefs, happy times should be considered offensive. Besides all of this, The U.S. is currently more than 85% Christian. I am very offended at the suggestion of banning the phrase in any public place. I would not be offended if someone wished me a happy Hanukkah. There's nothing wrong with wishing a blessing on someone. Nobody is asking anyone to say or do anything they don't believe in. It's not like people are forced to say Heil Jesus at Christmas time. Being forced to say happy holidays just doesn't make any sense to me.

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Originally Posted by jotay

Point taken. As to time line. Ok so coins has only been a little over hundred years and the pledge has only been 50 yrs. Still why all the beef over it now?

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I would call it the progress of civilization.

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Originally Posted by jotay

My real point was if you are in to God good if your not then don't say it.
Why do people who choose to say God or Merry Christmas or what the heck have to be made to feel like they are wrong and they have to walk on egg shells?

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I don't think anyone should be made to feel that way. I agree that PC is crap, but I think we should keep church and state seperate. And I think that supporting intolerance, as "under God" was originally intended to do, is unconscionable.

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Originally Posted by jotay

Case in point here in Va. There was a school who sold paver bricks w/ your name on it to help pay for some school const work. They offered bricks w/ many symbols as well as your name ie a cross, a star of David, a sun etc.
Someone purchased one w/ their name and a cross on it and ONE person out of the 15-1800 kids that went there complained they didn't like to have to walk on the walk and see a brick w/ a cross because they didn't worship God.
So the school was forced to remove it even tho the other oh couple of thousand people had no problem with it.

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Public or private school? Private schools have the right to accept funding from any source they choose. I would fight for that right as strongly as I do my own. Public...well there's a whole other discussion involved in how public schools are being funded, and who is at fault over that ;)

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Originally Posted by jotay

My point is we all have rights. Get over it. Experience it and move on.
Isn't there really way more important things in this world to focus on than that ?

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Maybe the rights of those who don't agree with the addition of religious words to a national pledge seem unimportant to many people. Why should you not be the one to "get over it"?

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Originally Posted by jotay

You shouldn't be forced or encouraged to say one or the other. Say what ever it is that you celebrate and move on.

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I agree, no one should be forced to make a public show of their beliefs either way. So why should it be included in the first place?

I also agree that in the grand scheme of things, this entire issue is miniscule in nature. However, it seems to be a pretty hot issue that humanity needs to find a way to get past, as it's brought up so very often by both sides. If it is indeed, so unimportant, why does it bring out such strong feelings?

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Originally Posted by jotay

...Someone purchased one w/ their name and a cross on it and ONE person out of the 15-1800 kids that went there complained they didn't like to have to walk on the walk and see a brick w/ a cross because they didn't worship God.
So the school was forced to remove it even tho the other oh couple of thousand people had no problem with it.
My point is we all have rights. Get over it. Experience it and move on.
Isn't there really way more important things in this world to focus on than that ?
You shouldn't be forced or encouraged to say one or the other. Say what ever it is that you celebrate and move on.

Sorry, but all this PC crap gives me a pain in my you know what.

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I agree, and since that kind of thing is cool to protest, even in a country where 85%+ of the population is Christian, I'll go ahead and agree with Sarah and say that I also don't like to see the Star of David on the chest of every police officer on the streets, so separate church and state and change those badges to ovals or something. Wait, that might look like an Easter egg. Better make it a non-distinct polygon with unequal sides to be safe.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I agree, and since that kind of thing is cool to protest, even in a country where 85%+ of the population is Christian, I'll go ahead and agree with Sarah and say that I also don't like to see the Star of David on the chest of every police officer on the streets, so separate church and state and change those badges to ovals or something. Wait, that might look like an Easter egg. Better make it a non-distinct polygon with unequal sides to be safe.

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First off, please don't attribute things to me that I never said.
Secondly, I'm not sure why you would think it's cool to go against the majority and invite intolerance upon one's self and loved ones.

Seperation of church and state benefits the religious every bit as much as it does the non-religious. It's such a fundamental part of what makes this country great, it should be as treasured as the right to vote.

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Seperation of church and state benefits the religious every bit as much as it does the non-religious. It's such a fundamental part of what makes this country great, it should be as treasured as the right to vote.

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Wow, someone I can agree with! :D

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I respect other religions, and the people who practice them! I have friends who arn't christians, and I love them the same as I do my christian friends. Some people blow this out of proportion! I wish I could put what I am thinking into words...

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Maybe something along the lines of Leviticus 19:18?

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself..."

;)

K~

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

Wow, someone I can agree with! :D

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Thanks, Gin, I'm glad someone does! :pinkele:

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

I would call it the progress of civilization.



I don't think anyone should be made to feel that way. I agree that PC is crap, but I think we should keep church and state seperate. And I think that supporting intolerance, as "under God" was originally intended to do, is unconscionable.

If some people don't agree w/ the under God then just don't stand and say it. I have no problem with it and others shouldn't. Some still to this day don't stand or say it and it has nothing to do w/ the word God in it. The freedom to say it or not. It is the beauty of freedom


Public or private school? Private schools have the right to accept funding from any source they choose. I would fight for that right as strongly as I do my own. Public...well there's a whole other discussion involved in how public schools are being funded, and who is at fault over that ;)

It was a public school and the cross wasn't about God if I recall it was a in memory of a passed on family member. Why does the sight of a cross freak people out. Maybe it's not about God, maybe they are trying to fend off vampires :) ( sorry had to add a little humor )


Maybe the rights of those who don't agree with the addition of religious words to a national pledge seem unimportant to many people. Why should you not be the one to "get over it"?

I am over it. I choose to say it and have no problem whatsoever if the person next to me does not.


I agree, no one should be forced to make a public show of their beliefs either way. So why should it be included in the first place?

Because the majority still rules and a far greater % is christian at this time. Who's to say how that may change in the future.

I also agree that in the grand scheme of things, this entire issue is miniscule in nature. However, it seems to be a pretty hot issue that humanity needs to find a way to get past, as it's brought up so very often by both sides. If it is indeed, so unimportant, why does it bring out such strong feelings?

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Because it is a very personal issue to most people. Look at all the wars, all the dead that has happen from people on both sides of the issue trying to force that their way is the right way.


As for the comment made by another poster, where the heck do you live that police officers have the star of David on their chests. Here in the big city they have shields as badges :) I thought the tin star deal went out w/ Matt Dillon.

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Thanks, Gin, I'm glad someone does! :pinkele:

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I do too! I haven't bothered to say much because you're already making all the points I would like to.

Actually this has turned out to be another well run and good thread.
Aside from all the good bp talk it's nice to bat things around w/ other's in a well run matter.
It's food for the head :)

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Originally Posted by slartibartfast

I do too! I haven't bothered to say much because you're already making all the points I would like to.

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Thanks Jess! I definitely thought your post was way more eloquent than I could ever be. You have a gift! :oops:

Oh, and yes Jotay, I think this thread has remained quite civilized.

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Originally Posted by SarahMB

Oh, and yes Jotay, I think this thread has remained quite civilized.

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That's because everyone KNEW that if it wasn't, there would be reprecussions - like - 50 lashes with a wet noodle and being forced to listen to me sing Christmas Carols (to get it back on the original topic) :rolleyes: (and let me tell you being forced to listen to me sing ANY song is a scarey prospect).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's because everyone KNEW that if it wasn't, there would be reprecussions - like - 50 lashes with a wet noodle and being forced to listen to me sing Christmas Carols (to get it back on the original topic) :rolleyes: (and let me tell you being forced to listen to me sing ANY song is a scarey prospect).

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Hehehe.... good one! I myself have great fear in wet noodle lashings :)