The effects of ball pythons on the reptile community

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Well said.



I can understand why the average herper would want an attractive aquarium setup - but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff - so all of those things that supposedly look 'natural' are really for the keeper and not the snake. I think that the success of keeping healthy ball pythons in rack systems is a testament to the fact that ball pythons don't necessarily *need* all of that natural flora to maintain an overall positive well being.

Don't think I'm saying that natural viv's are bad for ball pythons nor are their keepers for setting them up like that. For me, even with my relatively small collection, maintaining a group set up like that would be a full-time job.

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Excellent points!

I think for someone who is beginner with only one ball python such as myself tubs are also good because they are easy to setup and clean. These are conveniences that directly influence the health of our animals in captivity.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

.....but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff -

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...that makes me think of a few things....

1. Why does all the bacteria have to be 'bad'? Bacteria decomposes waste as seen in successful bioactive soil systems used for geckos and chameleons. It is possible to have a healthy amount of bacteria......it just takes a bit more understanding on the keepers part. Could this type of keeping approach be used to keep ball pythons?....and could it compare to tubs? Since people are 'attached' to keeping in tubs will anyone even attempt other methods?

2. Since some seem to believe that the 'rack system' provide as 'sterile-ish' type environment for reptiles.....could the lack of exposure to bacteria cause weaker animals in the long run? ....For example, I keep my ball python on soil...you keep yours on paper in a tub.....then we expose both to a unheathy amount of bacteria....would there be any difference in reaction? would one be more prone to sickness when exposed?

I think some people see 'rack systems' as something that is restricting expanding the possibilities of keeping. Rack systems are proven.....but it took work to prove that. With everyone focusing on Racks, will another method of keeping ever be 'proven'? Are we limiting ourselves by not 'trying new things'?


Here is a good question......How is the keeping of ball pythons making any progress forward other than more morphs being created?

I think these issues are great for discussion....

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

I think some people see 'rack systems' as something that is restricting expanding the possibilities of keeping. Rack systems are proven.....but it took work to prove that. With everyone focusing on Racks, will another method of keeping ever be 'proven'? Are we limiting ourselves by not 'trying new things'?

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As soon as someone shows me a better way, I'll jump right on that train. At the moment, with the information available today, I am a believer in rack systems. Again, I've got to reiterate the point that this is by no means the ONLY way to successfully keep ball pythons. I will, however, go out on a limb and say that this is the best way to maintain a large colony of ball pythons at the present moment and will be, I believe, for some time.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Here is a good question......How is the keeping of ball pythons making any progress forward other than more morphs being created?

I think these issues are great for discussion....

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Ask some older herpers to look back 20 years. If you say that the captive husbandry of ball pythons hasn't progessed and isn't progressing today, you're crazy.

Now that this has turned into a caging thread...any other takes on why a part of the reptile community hates us?? :P

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

As soon as someone shows me a better way, I'll jump right on that train.

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If everyone thought that way......no 'better way' would ever be developed. Would the people who started keeping snakes in racks today be here if someone was not the first to 'try it'?...

That is kinda the point that I was trying to hit. I know all about the things that were tried in the past.....but that was the past. There are alot more reptile keepers now and we have alot more knowledge, so why not try something different?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Ask some older herpers to look back 20 years. If you say that the captive husbandry of ball pythons hasn't progessed and isn't progressing today, you're crazy.

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I know all about the past. I am talking about the keeping of ball pythons CURRENTLY. How are we progessing forward from our CURRENT state? Sure we have genetic/morphs being figured out everyday and a few things are being tried with breeding....but what else is new?


...and Brad...I am just playing devils advocate here based off a few of my ideas and opinions that have been presented by others.... I keep my snakes in a rack like you.....just trying to stir up some interesting conversation ;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Now that this has turned into a caging thread...any other takes on why a part of the reptile community hates us?? :P

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.....lol.....from the reasons that I have seen so far (here and other places) most relate to money in some sort....more scammers....overpriced snakes....animals as commodities.....too much biz and not enough hobby....everyone and their brother wants to be breeders and make millions....people don't like that kinda 'attitude'...

....nothing we have not been exposed to before.

...the housing and 'progessing husbandry' are the only two things I have seen outside of the money issues.....LOL

I used to work for a real old-school herper...I was just getting into ball pythons at the time and he thought I was crazy...to him, from his years of experience in the reptile hobby/trade, they were a dime a dozen and not too exciting. No one ever thought that the popularity of ball pythons (thanks primarily to the variety of exciting morphs) would explode like they have.

Maybe all of those old school herpers feel left behind, so there's got to be some resentment there...maybe a little bit of that "I've been around longer than all of these new guys"...that elitist attitude.

I think there are a lot of those "lone-wolf" types in the reptile hobby and whenever something that those people like gets very popular...whether its the band they listened to before they were popular or the snake they passed on for other things....theres some resentment there. Just my 10.32....

I wouldn't worry too much about different groups of keepers dissing other groups...this is the normal mode of operation for all hobbies!


I am into Jeeps and Fish, and both groups of enthusiasts tend to look down on the 'common' or the 'easy to keep/do' parts of the hobby. Its elitism plain and simple and it is BS.

People naturally like a challenge, and some people get greater rewards from greater challenges. The fact that BP's are relatively easy to keep and a good snake for novice herpers is all the reason the elitists need to try to elevate themselves by denegrating others.

it's BS...ignore it :)

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

How are we progessing forward from our CURRENT state? Sure we have genetic/morphs being figured out everyday and a few things are being tried with breeding....but what else is new?

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I think that we're learning TONS!! ... From really beginning to understand the reproductive "mystery" of these animals to new ways to treat respiratory infections to better understanding temperature requirements ... etc, etc, etc ... I've seen so much change in the last 2 years alone it's crazy!!!

-adam

As someone outside the ball python circle, my really one beef is the morph issue. I saw some of the genetic bad stuff first hand at Daytona last year. The table next to us had all kinds of bp morphs as well as other boid morphs. They were a jobber and produced nothing on their table. I freaked out when I saw the behavior of the spider balls they were selling. I actually thought there was some type of desease involved and affraid for our emeralds. I actually went looking at different ball breeders tables to see if any of their spiders acted that way. Most did and after asking others about the behavior, learned that this was "normal" for spiders.

I am not a radical when it comes to inbreeding (linebreeding), it is just something I disagree with and will never knowingly do. The bp market is growing so fast that there has to be pressure to produce the popular morphs and I have a feeling that some may forgo common sense and maybe carry the line breeding too far. I have a feeling that unlike most hobbiests, big breeders consider their animals as livestock and not pets, with the market being the driving force behind their mass production. With that maybe some animals that should have been culled (meaning sold as non-breeders) have been sold with maybe some misinformation about their origins or genetic viability.

Craig

I am curious, what behavior are you speaking of?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by CraigC

As someone outside the ball python circle, my really one beef is the morph issue. I saw some of the genetic bad stuff first hand at Daytona last year. The table next to us had all kinds of bp morphs as well as other boid morphs. They were a jobber and produced nothing on their table. I freaked out when I saw the behavior of the spider balls they were selling. I actually thought there was some type of desease involved and affraid for our emeralds. I actually went looking at different ball breeders tables to see if any of their spiders acted that way. Most did and after asking others about the behavior, learned that this was "normal" for spiders.

I am not a radical when it comes to inbreeding (linebreeding), it is just something I disagree with and will never knowingly do. The bp market is growing so fast that there has to be pressure to produce the popular morphs and I have a feeling that some may forgo common sense and maybe carry the line breeding too far. I have a feeling that unlike most hobbiests, big breeders consider their animals as livestock and not pets, with the market being the driving force behind their mass production. With that maybe some animals that should have been culled (meaning sold as non-breeders) have been sold with maybe some misinformation about their origins or genetic viability.

Craig

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Originally Posted by firehop

I am curious, what behavior are you speaking of?

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The head would twist backward and upside down, like the snake was trying to crawl upside down. It would do this until maybe 1/5 of it's body was upside down, backward and paralell to the rest of it's body. Then the head would flop to one side and it would "right" itself. It and others in the display case would do this over and over again. Didn't seem like normal behavior to me, nor the folks at the table on the other side of us.

Craig

I personally have never seen this other than when any snake is in a real small enclosure and is trying to get leverage to push the wall. If this is "normal" for morphs I haven’t seen it in any of mine do this. If anyone else has seen this I would be interested in finding out more.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by firehop

I personally have never seen this other than when any snake is in a real small enclosure and is trying to get leverage to push the wall. If this is "normal" for morphs I haven’t seen it in any of mine do this. If anyone else has seen this I would be interested in finding out more.

Thanks

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What Craig was mentioning is not the 'norm' for morphs. Animals can have genetic defects...plain and simple....you could breed normals and end up with problems. If some idiot is trying selling a snake with defects without the customers knowing, then they deserve to be blacklisted.

I have seen 'spinning' spiders before...I seen normals do the same thing too. But no respectable breeder would ever sell or breed such animals...if you see a defected snake on someone's table being sold as a 'perfectly ok' animal, I would suggest just passing that breeder by. Usually when people keep those kind of animals....they are kept on a 'pet only' basis.

Also, snakes and other reptiles exposed to high temperatures can develop neurological disorders that cause them to 'spasm'....other sicknesses like IBD can also cause weird movements....so not all odd snake behaviors can be blamed on their genetics.

That was my point, the "sellers" that I asked about it told me that was "normal" behavior. Obviously it wasn't and they had no qualms about selling these animals as normal. My only conclusion when someone sells an animal with obvious problems and calls it normal, is they only have eyes for the money.

Craig

Thats a shame......I love my animals first the money will come later with care and a good environment, but thats all secondary for me. I guess as with everything there are always going to be those that seek profit at any cost. Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by CraigC

That was my point, the "sellers" that I asked about it told me that was "normal" behavior. Obviously it wasn't and they had no qualms about selling these animals as normal. My only conclusion when someone sells an animal with obvious problems and calls it normal, is they only have eyes for the money.

Craig

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Depends on what issues you are talking about...so far we covered spinning, which is most closely associated with a the trait appearing commonly in spiders. Its becoming more appearant that most, if not all, spiders do exhibit some displays of spinning to some degree (some more, some barely any at all). Now, most of these spiders grow to be happy healthy breeding adults - does that make it a 'problem' or a defect?

Its up to the breeder to be completely up front about the issues on the table; however, it is up to buyers to get educated PRIOR to the purchase, and make the decision for themselves.

Anyways...I think all of this proves one effect of ball pythons on the reptile community...more drama perhaps??? :P:D

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Depends on what issues you are talking about...so far we covered spinning, which is most closely associated with a the trait appearing commonly in spiders. Its becoming more appearant that most, if not all, spiders do exhibit some displays of spinning to some degree (some more, some barely any at all). Now, most of these spiders grow to be happy healthy breeding adults - does that make it a 'problem' or a defect?

Its up to the breeder to be completely up front about the issues on the table; however, it is up to buyers to get educated PRIOR to the purchase, and make the decision for themselves.

Anyways...I think all of this proves one effect of ball pythons on the reptile community...more drama perhaps??? :P:D

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This is true. Head bobbing is commonly associated with Spiders. Some way more than others. I have never heard of it affecting the health of the animal but like all morphs you get what you pay for and where you get it. These are some of things you should ask before purchasing one.

Any thoughts now, two years later?

I'm sticking with one proven effect:

More drama.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

An ecological risk assessment of nonnative boas and pythons as potentially invasive species in the United States.
Risk Anal. 2005 Jun;25(3):753-66.

I have this paper.....but have yet to read it seriously.

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I'm going to acquire it and see what I can learn. Thanks for the link.

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Originally Posted by TheOtherLeadingBrand

Any thoughts now, two years later?

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I think an awful lot of the people who were in it JUST for the money are now gone, and good riddance. You can still make money at breeding morphs, you just have to work harder for it now.

I'm glad I'm just a hobbyist and don't have to worry about any of that 'makin money' nonsense...

I think that ball pythons are really fun and interesting to have in their own way. I have 8 and I love them to death. There is not a snake in my collection that is easier to maintain. I have a huge appreciation for good looking normals and that's mostly what I own aside from my spider and pastel. I think that anyone who is in this hobby for money needs to go elsewhere, where living creatures are not involved.

I will admit, I get really tired of looking at just ball pythons (and at times, blood pythons and red tailed boas) at reptile shows, and having to wade through them to find other snakes at shows. It's a little ridiculous at just how many people want to talk ball pythons, and if it's not a BP they are not interested. Having said that, being largely a keeper of semi aquatic species (garter and water snakes) which are MUCH more work and maintenance than ball pythons due to the amounts of food they eat, how often they eat, and the ridiculous amount of POOP and the SPACE that they use because they are so active, I tend to get bored easily with my ball pythons. I love keeping my active, zoom around the cage all day snakes, and I certainly wish more people would give them a try! but only if they are going to do it the right way!

I think Ball Pythons are great. They are a gateway snake. Alot of times they are the first snake people have, and do to their docile nature they make people want to own more snakes.

I just don't like it when people get so into the morphs that they treat BP's like merchandise. (Not directed towards anyone in particular, I'm well aware that many breeders are not this way.)


Over-all I think ball pythons are great snakes but I don't think they are among the most fun to own.

I love the ball pythons. And I can tell you that this time last year, if I saw a snake, I'm going for the shovel to chop its head off! Ever since my husband came home with our first ball python, I have turned 180 degrees and would go psycho if I see a neighbor trying to chop off a wild racer snake running in the backyard. So, yeah, the popularity of the ball python is definitely a big plus to the reptile community.

Also, we got a spider. And like all spiders, he had a head wobble - a slight one. His head would bob up and down when he lifts his head and holds it up (like when staking out his rat). We got him when he was only 100g or so. He is now about 800 grams and I don't see the head bobbing anymore. So, he grew out of it! So, yeah, I don't know if you could call that a defect or just a distinctive trait. You know, like my bichon frise dog who runs in wide circles like a busy bee - a distinctive trait of bichon frises.

Having just read this thread, I want to comment.
Many of the objections given by people against ball python keeping are things that are opinions.
Some hate anyone that might dare to attempt to make money off any animal. They don't care if it's profit, or if the animals are well taken care of, and loved. It's simply evil to them to try to make money off the animal. I'm not sure what they think would happen if selling was outlawed, since many breeders couldn't afford to breed if they had to give away the babies. I guess they believe it would be good, since there would be fewer pets. Or they simply do not think that far.

Other people hate morphs. They believe any morph is a genetic mutt and a defect, and should be culled. These people will be especially against the ball python boom, since it's so focused on the variety of morphs. I've seen people claim that all albinos are inbred, and go blind, etc. All morphs are inbred, despite proof to the contrary. All morphs are defective, despite proof to the contrary. Etc. You can't really argue with people who refuse to be distracted in their opinions with the facts. I don't mind if someone prefers normals, but don't make up facts, just becuase you dislike morphs. These love the spider wobble, pointing at that as the absolute proof that all morphs are defective culls.

Many people hate anything that becomes extremely popular. They feel ball python owners are touting THEIR species over any other species, and calling all the rest worthless, becuase they say ball pythons are the best. These are the ones that get angry if a singer gets popular, and call people who like that singer fakes, just because they were not exposed to the singer before he "made it big". So everyone who comes to ball pythons NOW, are just "jumping on the bandwagon" instead of only being exposed to an animal they truely like, and didn't think about owning prior to having them everywhere at shows, etc.

Then there's who are convinced that if there are that many ball pythons being sold, that they must be going extinct in the wild. Ball python habitat is actually expanding, as the clearing for farms creates the perfect place for rodents and thus ball pythons. Their natural predetors are fewer(not that this is a good thing) but again, don't confuse them with facts. Especially don't try to mention that most of the snakes sold at shows seem to CBB now. Yes, we still import a high number, but they don't overwhelm the show numbers. I have to shake my head when I overhear someone pointing at a group of albinos and pastels on a table of a big breeder and declaring that "See, they're becoming extinct in africa, because people keep importing them". Hmm.. yes...

Now you have those that are merely angry that ball pythons are a fairly easy to keep species, and thus worthless to any "serious keeper". As if the animal being kept HAS to be extremely difficult or it's just not worth doing. These are people who look down their nose at people who ride their bike around the park on a weekend, instead of competeing in the mountain biking races held overseas with the latest and greatest equipment. It doesn't have to be hard to be fun and fullfilling to do.

Maybe they dislike that ball pythons are 'lazy boring' snakes? They don't move fast, and don't do a lot. This is what attracts a lot of first time keepers TO balls. Fast moving active snakes can overwhelm a new keeper, when they can't contain the animal, and it is not content to be handled or just hang out. I LIKE that they just sit around, honestly. They seem placid and calm, as opposed to my cornsnake who leaps to escape any time there's a crack available.

All these are not aimed at any particular person, especially not anyone on this board. But it's various arguments I've heard, discussed or overheard, mainly at shows dominated by ball pythons and their morphs. I'll hazard a guess that leopard gecko fans were treated somewhat the same, to a lesser degree, when they first started really breeding all the various morphs there.

All in all, just opinions, and yes, the ones that are in it Just For the Profit, will move on when the craze dies down. Yes, some of those will flood the market with cheapo versions, and scam folks with false hets and morphs. Just like people selling fake Prada bags, people sell fake hets. Something else will grow popular, and ball pythons will not be on top anymore. Those of us that appreciate the species for it's good points will still be around, and still discussing why others don't prefer them.

All of the above is just my own rambling and should be taken as such, not as scientific study, nor as proven facts. Any attempt to use such ramblings as such will be laughed at tremendously.

Great points! I totally agree. I had balls before I even knew morphs existed, because I LIKE them.

Interesting to see this thread brought back up. A few points in reflection....

1. I have tried to find several species of reptiles once commonly kept in this hobby.....only to find that they are now 'rare'. Professional breeders have moved on to what makes money...ball python morphs. Hobby keepers are the only thing keeping some once popular species going in captivity. There are morphs (and even species) of some reptiles that have 'gone extinct in captivity' because keepers simply stopped breeding them to move on to more profitable reptiles. .....it really shows who cares about the animals and who cares about the money.

2. Legislation :( Without the popularity and monetary aspect of ball python morphs, I honestly believe that the recent legislation would have passed with ease. I am thankful that ball pythons have pulled more people into the hobby of keeping snakes....the more people we have the better chances we have of preserving this hobby.

3. I think some people have finally started to 'get over the craze'...but the 'craze' has drawn in many people that will never leave this hobby. Like it was said.....ball pythons can be a 'gateway' reptile.....I know they were for me ;)

Just curious, which species are now nearly unfindable that were common in the pet trade? I only remember vaguely burmese, retics, balls, corns and redtails? boas.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Just curious, which species are now nearly unfindable that were common in the pet trade? I only remember vaguely burmese, retics, balls, corns and redtails? boas.

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Most small monitor species are extreamly hard to find in the US. I know of one keeper that sold his entire collection (including a breeding group of Storr's monitors) to focus on ball python and boa morphs. While it is 100% a keepers right to choose what to keep, I can see how it can hurt the community when someone gives up breeding an animal that is only bred by 2 or 3 people in North America. Some species such as King's monitors 'went extinct' in the US. I know of one keeper that managed to import a group from Canada, but he has not had success breeding them yet. These monitors were once produced in quantity by commercial breeders....what happened?

From my observations, the 'rarity' of species seems to increase when that animal is not able to be imported into this country and/or when that animal is not as easy to keep. Look at children's pythons for example. How many children's pythons breeders can you list?

I do not think that the lack of focus on other species is caused by ONLY ball pythons though. More like reptile 'morphs' in general. People seem to avoid 'normal' reptiles these days...

IF someone hatched albino children's pythons, how do you think people would react? I would bet that there be more people breeding them within the next year.

But like I said. I don't really think it is the doing of ball pythons alone.....more like people being lured to the possiblity of making large sums of money off of easily breedable reptiles :)

One possibility is that people are getting "smarter" about keeping reptiles, in the sense that a larger percentage of new keepers are getting species that are appropriate for new keepers, such as BPs instead of burms.

While I agree it is sad if a certain species becomes totally extinct within the US reptile trade, I think it is a good thing if difficult to keep species represent only a very small percentage.

However, this doesn't explain why BPs and their morphs have become SO overwhelming. Even corn snakes, which are just as good for beginning keepers, and have just as many beautiful morphs and combos, are few and far between at reptile shows in comparison to BPs.

lol lets see if I can post this the way my brain works and people understand it.
ball pythons are a gateway drug for reptiles owners ( they start out nice and cheap single animal then they find out there are the high end morphs. and the prices go up with them.) unlike a corn the bp is a more calm snake snake and will not freak out. heck I know I started out with wild caught native snakes then seen a bp I was so in love it started my true reptile habit lol..

Well, ball pythons really are ideal investment animals--that's why they've become so overwhelmingly popular.

Breeding ball pythons enables people to keep a few other species that are more demanding...without having to put money into the hobby that it isn't making for itself.

Also, the secret is, you really can make money breeding ball pythons, if you do it the right way. You don't even have to have a lot of them. A lot of people hobby breed them on the side, and within 3 years they're making a profit, as long as they don't keep expanding without consideration.

It's difficult to fail with ball pythons. There really isn't a single snake species out there that's easier to breed.
Consider--they do not require cooling, or even artificial adjustment of day hours, as long as you're using ambient window light for them. They usually readily eat frozen/thawed rats. Hatchlings are not particularly difficult to start (the majority of the time).
All you have to do is start throwing them together fall through spring, and feed them up when they'll eat, and you get a clutch of eggs every year.

Corn snakes, whatever else they may have going for them, need to be cooled. Plus, they lay large clutches, and can be double-clutched occasionally. With the potential for one female to produce 60 eggs in a single year, that's an animal that's going to have just unstable a value as leopard geckos do. Corn snakes may be just as suitable, or moreso, to keep as pets, but they're definitely not nearly as simple to breed for profit.