Spiders????

There are plenty of reputable 'flippers' that go to shows.

Steven, please remember the edit button :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Sure they can, but if the person has a great rep on the BOI and has a history of selling hets with no negative feedback I'd probably take the chance...

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Over the years, lots of people on the BOI that had great reps at one point turned into bad guys for selling hets that didn't prove out once they were raised to breeding size.

Here's something to think about ... the professional breeders that feed their kids with snake money can't afford to rip someone off because if they got caught their careers would be over ... but some dude with a couple of snakes and a table at a show could easily sell a bunch of normals as "hets" and then a year or two or three later disappear from the scene ... the dude at the show has nothing "invested" in the market and wouldn't get hurt at all from a tarnished reputation ... and before you get started with the idea of criminal prosecution, no one has ever been convicted of any crimes involving the sale of fake hets and probably never will.

There is a lot of security in the idea of spending big bucks with the big boys that makes me feel very comfortable paying a little extra when I need to. :sweeet:


-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

There is a lot of security in the idea of spending big bucks with the big boys that makes me feel very comfortable paying a little extra when I need to. :sweeet:


-adam

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All so true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

There are plenty of reputable 'flippers' that go to shows.

Steven, please remember the edit button :D

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My apologies, I didn't intend any negativity or anything against the reputable flippers... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Here's the sad thing...

Everyone in this hobby is supposed to be in it for the love of the snakes 1st, not some investment or business project! That's the difference between a career breeder and a hobbyist, they need snake $$$ to live!! We need snake $$$ to buy more snakes and enjoy ourselves!

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If you think that someone that is a career breeder doesn't love the animals more than the $$$, you have no idea what it takes to feed, care for, and clean animals for a living ... it is a dedication that most people on this planet will never understand ... the security of a pay check at a normal 9-5 job is something that most breeders dream about everytime an animal dies, or a clutch of eggs goes bad, or odds don't work out like they should have. I think that if you actually took the time to talk to the pioneers of this industry like Kevin McCurley, Bob Clark, Tracy Barker, Peter Kahl, Ralph Davis, etc you'd realize that for those people, the money is only secondary to doing what they love ... in the end, they are hobbyists like you and I that have just taken their passion to the next level.

I admire them all!

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Hey Adam weren't you one of those flippers at one time? :confused:

We all have to start off somewhere... :)

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No, NEVER ... Everything I have ever sold or will ever sell was and is produced by me ... I don't resell other peoples animals and I've never set up at a show ... Nothing wrong with the practice, it's just not for me.

I started by selling my animals for what I feel they are worth, by respecting the professional breeders prices, by never undercutting my own customers, by being 100% honest all the time, and by trying to provide every one of my customers with the same level of service and quality that I would expect myself ... I have been blessed to have had a lot of success over the years and the future at this point seems limitless for my business! :D

-adam

:bow: :clap: Great!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No, NEVER ... Everything I have ever sold or will ever sell was and is produced by me ... I don't resell other peoples animals and I've never set up at a show ... Nothing wrong with the practice, it's just not for me.

I started by selling my animals for what I feel they are worth, by respecting the professional breeders prices, by never undercutting my own customers, by being 100% honest all the time, and by trying to provide everyone one of my customers with the same level of service and quality that I would expect myself ... I have been blessed to have had a lot of success over the years and the future at this point seems limitless for my business! :D

-adam

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There's only one this missing here...what about Jesus?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Great post!
Ed, I'm the same way, I love to root for the underdog...the smaller breeders or hobbyists...when you produce some clutches I would love to check out what hatches and if you have something that I like or catches my eye I don't see what would be stopping me from buying from you...

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Steven,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that ... you've made a lot of posts in this thread that seem to be justifying getting getting "deals" on animals ... no need to defend yourself, everyone loves deals and no one is saying that you're wrong for buying like that ... if it works for you great!

My personal feelings on buying snakes are a little different and I'm not shy about it ... but they are MY feelings and mine alone ... I don't expect anyone at anytime to either agree or disagree with me, only to respect my way of doing things just as I respect theirs ... If you like finding quality animals on the cheap good for you! ... That's awesome! ... I personally prefer to pay a little more and buy from the best breeders in the business that have been gracious enough to develop personal relationships with me over the years ... To each their own! :D

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

There's only one this missing here...what about Jesus?

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My feelings about my god and my religion are deeply personal ... I hope that is something all can respect.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No, NEVER ... Everything I have ever sold or will ever sell was and is produced by me ... I don't resell other peoples animals and I've never set up at a show ... Nothing wrong with the practice, it's just not for me.

I started by selling my animals for what I feel they are worth, by respecting the professional breeders prices, by never undercutting my own customers, by being 100% honest all the time, and by trying to provide every one of my customers with the same level of service and quality that I would expect myself ... I have been blessed to have had a lot of success over the years and the future at this point seems limitless for my business! :D

-adam

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Adam this is one of the reasons I respect you.

No Steven, I wasn't talking about that, just your multiple posts one after the other the last page.

The BOI can't guarantee anything. Sure, if someone has had numerous negative experiences with a person it's good to steer clear but even with all positive experiences you still have to decide to take the risk.
Then there are the people that haven't been posted on the BOI, what do you do with them? Avoid them because the lynch mob hasn't had it's turn yet?
No, the BOI is a tool to 'consider' but it does not make my decisions for me.

I really enjoy talking to breeders at shows.

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]Over the years, lots of people on the BOI that had great reps at one point turned into bad guys for selling hets that didn't prove out once they were raised to breeding size.

Not doubting that...

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]but some dude with a couple of snakes and a table at a show could easily sell a bunch of normals as "hets" and then a year or two or three later disappear from the scene ... the dude at the show has nothing "invested" in the market and wouldn't get hurt at all from a tarnished reputation ...

I'm sure anyone would be a little weary with a bunch of normals ( so called hets) and no visual morphs in place that those hets would create... Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't or it couldn't happen.

What I'm saying is not all of those dudes with a couple of snakes and a table at a show ARE scammers...Most of those dudes with only a couple of snakes and a table are honost hard working people just like you! that are passionate about snakes and look forward to everyday working with them...Some of those guys with a couple of snakes and a table are members of this forum helping others learn and understand more about their beautiful animal(s)...But of course they have to start somewhere. Like I said earlier "we all start somewhere"

In every industry or type of business there are con artists and scammers... I'm not saying that they don't exist, what I'm saying is don't single out a breeder just because he doesn't have some huge rediculous 10 table setup.

[QUOTE=Entropy]No Steven, I wasn't talking about that, just your multiple posts one after the other the last page.

My bad, Got a little excited thats all lol :)


[QUOTE=Entropy]The BOI can't guarantee anything.

Well it can give you an idea...


Giving Edit a try...


I notice we keep coming back to TSE (Top Shelf Exotics ) as the poster boys for what happens when you don't buy BIG named breeder! He is a BAD flipper that screwed over a lot of people!

But, I am somewhat positive there are some sales and transactions that go on every day between these small unknown sellers that go smooth as silk with happy sellers and buyers on both sides. What happens IMO is, the few negative experiences like TSE are magnified 200X's as what can happen if you save some $$$!

Question? What about ALL the positive sales and transactions that take place daily that out number the negative ones 10,000 to 1?

People are most likely to post about a negative experience over a positive any day of the week. Just look at the BOI and compare a positive thread and a negative thread! Positive thread 2-3 pages, negative thread 200-1000 pages!

Most sales be it a large breeder or small breeder or flipper go without a hitch and everyone is happy! 99% of these go untold as they had no problems or people don't post because they get told not to post or that they are bragging! If everyone came on here and posted that they got a fantastic Spider for $600 or a Perfect Pied for $2000, the neg reps fly and people say don't post threads like these!

But, when someone like TSE comes along....that's used as a good side of flippers or small breeders and/or hobbyist? It doesn't make sense IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

In every industry or type of business there are con artists and scammers... I'm not saying that they don't exist, what I'm saying is don't single out a breeder just because he doesn't have some huge rediculous 10 table setup.

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I'm not singling out ANYONE ... I'm shaing my years and years of experience going to shows and buying ball pythons ... It's easy to get scammed buying off of someone at a show ... it's easy to get exactly what you're paying for buying from a professional breeder who's reputation is EVERYTHING.

In my opinion, it has nothing to do with 10 table setups and everything to do with supporting people that are investing in the community/hobby you are choosing to be a member of.

I never said not to buy from small breeders ... I do it all the time ... everyone does have to start somewhere and the small breeders that I choose to support and help are generally my customers ... I always enjoy buying animals from people that have put their trust in me when they were getting started ... my point is that with the PRO's, there is ZERO question about what you are getting and how you will be treated IF a problem arises. ;)

I hope that it something you can understand.

-adam

Another thing is, MKR was considered a PRO until they cut prices and fell from grace! There is no such thing as ZERO risks! I'm sure there are people that have bought from Clark, NERD and others that weren't 100% satisfied. Are we going to pass judgment on a few bad transactions or thousands of good ones?

But, to assume and post on forums that I have a higher chance of being scammed by Joe or ED than I do by RDR without knowing Joe or ED, doesn't seem right! Simply based on RDR is selling morph X for $5000 and Joe and Ed are selling them for $3000.


For RDR it may be valued at $5000, for Joe and Ed $3000 is grand. Who is right and who is wrong? Maybe in some eyes Joe and Ed are crap because they sell for less! Maybe in other eyes the other price is overpriced. I think we all need to respect each other and it seems every time someone posts about a good deal or being happy with a purchase that is below what others feel, it's a becomes mess and lets kill these threads!

:rockon:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

It should always be about what you want and what you like...
I myself have never bragged about "who" I bought from... Now if I was walking past booths say Greg Graziani, 8ball, RDR... and I saw an animal I liked... and then I saw some guy with only a couple of tables and a fraction of the animals but he had a stunning spider just as beautiful as any that the others had...but cheaper... I'd still opt for it. To me a Ball Python is a Ball python... Whether it's a RDR or a Graziani... Now of course I'm new to the whole show circuit but I've seen a few unknown or smaller known breeders with animals just as beautiful as the "big guy's"...

Now the question here is this... Everyone's talking about buying from the big breeders... What about the guy on BP.net who has been keeping ball pythons for a few years decides to take on breeding (alot of 'em on here including myself) produces some clutches and decides to put "them" on the market... He prices a little bit lower than the big guys but offers great customer service, has healthy & very beautiful animals keeps track of all of their records; weight, feeding, sheds & ect,... Are you going to not purchase from him because his price is lower? Does that automatically make his animals lower quality?

The fact is... Not everyone buying morphs are breeders, though alot are or have the intent to. Alot of the people that post about a low price aren't really bragging either... It's more so excitement and happiness and the fact that they want to share that. Alot of people are cool with it, the others that see these snakes as $$$ (investment/business) it's a nightmare...

Adam made a comment that "I say good for the people that get the deals! ... They have a right to brag! "

I'd say it's more happiness but ok...:)

Then he writes: Would you really feel good about a "het" that someone needed to move so badly that they dropped the price at least a thousand dollars below market value?

Well I myself and I'm sure most of everybody on here probably would...why shouldn't you? If you got a good deal and paid below the rest, if you actually paid below market value (I mean who is to say what is market value?). Here you have some saying $750 is market for Spiders and others saying $1000!! Why would you feel bad about it? If I needed $$$ and decided to sell my Pied (say I had one) for $1000, why should you feel bad about buying it? :confused:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

it seems every time someone posts about a good deal or being happy with a purchase that is below what others feel, it's a becomes mess and lets kill these threads!

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Agreed! I would feel like junk to know that I got flamed for saying that I got my spider at 15% below normal cost (which I didn't). I would want people to be happy for me and congratulate me on finding a good deal. I mean for all they know I look for 5 months at every breeder on every sight to find the one I like for the price I could do. I'd be happy for someone that found morph x for what they can afford. I mean car dealers deal with this everyday you can buy a chevy 1500 for 16500.00 at dealer one and the same truck for 1200.00 at dealer two. Dealer one will not get his feeling hurt if you buy the cheaper car. Why? Because there'll be some come along that'll pay them 16500.00 and be just as happy as the other guy.

See what I'm saying

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Agreed! I would feel like junk to know that I got flamed for saying that I got my spider at 15% below normal cost (which I didn't). I would want people to be happy for me and congratulate me on finding a good deal. I mean for all they know I look for 5 months at every breeder on every sight to find the one I like for the price I could do. I'd be happy for someone that found morph x for what they can afford. I mean car dealers deal with this everyday you can buy a chevy 1500 for 16500.00 at dealer one and the same truck for 1200.00 at dealer two. Dealer one will not get his feeling hurt if you buy the cheaper car. Why? Because there'll be some come along that'll pay them 16500.00 and be just as happy as the other guy.

See what I'm saying

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I totally see what your saying... Not only that but another way to look at it is if that chevy 1500 is priced at $16,500. at the dealership and you walk up there with $13.5K or $14K in $100 bills and put it on the table "take it or leave it" the chances are he's going to take the money...Cash speaks much louder than words, especially in person...

Here's my input - for what it's worth. I have purchased my morphs from Adam - he won't admit it, but most of us consider him a big breeder, and from Justin Kobylka, a smaller breeder.


With Adam, I know that the value of my purchase far exceeds "just" the animal. I know that at any time, I can pick up the phone for breeding advice, or if something is "wonky" with my animal, that he'll care as much as I do. An example of that is my het hypo. I noticed a week after purchasing him that he had something "odd" with his eye (I believe now, probably a retained eyecap, as it disappeared after his first shed with me). I trusted Adam after the sale as well - sent him pictures, and even after I thought it was resolved, he private messaged me a week later with an offer of how to resolve the issue, which wasn't needed - but the fact that he didn't consider the sale over until I was 100% satisfied spoke volumes to me.

With Justin, I've seen his collection, I know he paid prime money for his foundation animals, pied from Pete Kahl, clowns from BHB and VPI, and his lavendar albino from another big breeder (who escapes me now). I read his reputation on BOI as a starting point, and I consulted with Adam to see if he had heard anything about Justin and although he had not purchased from him, he felt he was a good guy to buy from. At the time, Adam wasn't producing het clowns, and Justin's collection was awesome. I could have purchased a het clown male for much less than I paid for mine, but I knew that I would get the same level of service from Justin (not a big named breeder) as I would from someone like Adam, from his reputation, and my personal interactions with him.

For ME, it's worth it to purchase from someone who will be there for me for years to come. I have no doubt that if for some reason, one of my animals from Adam were to - god forbid - die, Adam wouldn't point fingers at me. He'd want to know the facts, but he'd care, and he'd most likely have a resolution (even though he is under no obligation to at this point) that would make me very happy. That's just how he does business, and how he gets repeat business and referrals.

For me, I like the "fringe" benefits involved in paying a little more for what I have no doubt will prove out (with my hets) and knowing that my animals come from quality stock. I take a lot of pride in how selective I have been in building my personal collection, I think the extra money and time will pay off in the long run.

You make some good points Robin however in defense of some of the smaller breeders they are just as likely to offer 'follow up' service. Many of my snakes came from small local breeders and years later I can still call them up and ask questions or just chat and some of the animals I didn't pay 'high dollars' for. It's not just the more well known breeders that offer their ears and experience as you probably know pretty well with Will. :)
It still just comes down to do your homework and do your best to 'know' who you're doing business with, a breeders attitude says a lot about who they are whether they are big or small.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

You make some good points Robin however in defense of some of the smaller breeders they are just as likely to offer 'follow up' service. Many of my snakes came from small local breeders and years later I can still call them up and ask questions or just chat and some of the animals I didn't pay 'high dollars' for. It's not just the more well known breeders that offer their ears and experience as you probably know pretty well with Will. :)
It still just comes down to do your homework and do your best to 'know' who you're doing business with.

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I agree, which is why I mentioned Justin Kobylka, who is a smaller breeder - but offers a very high level of service as well.

Will Bird is also a smaller breeder, but mostly sells CH females - but gets them well started and also offers a level of service beyond the sale. I also paid more for my animals from Will then I would have from some random vendor at a show or that I see advertised on classifieds, but I also knew that I was paying for more than just the snake - I was paying for an animal that had fed successfully for him every week, or else he would not post it for sale.

My point, which I'm not effectively communicating is that there is a LOT to be said for you get what you pay for. I prefer to pay a little more for a quality animal from a quality breeder, no matter what "size" they are.

I think the key is the reputation of the person large or small. Character, honesty and service is what counts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

Actually I have seen some very nice clean spiders in the 750-800 range.

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I agree with that price range, and I feel as a seller you dont have to take the buyers last dollar with an overpriced ball python! most of us small breeders are pure hobbyists that keep ball pythons for the pure enjoyment.

Most of the best quality ball pythons are coming from the smaller breeders that really care about what they are doing. :)

If you think that the high quality snakes are only coming from the big ballers and you want to pay a few hundred dollars extra, thats your choice.

Shop around, but do your homework. There are some great buys on BP morphs and they are not hard to find. :)

Personally, I am VERY careful who I spend my money with. I will either buy from breeders that have a stellar reputation, or smaller guys that I feel comfortable with, seeing others that have bought from them. I base it on personal trust rather than "a deal." Take my recent Spider buy from Ed Clark; I saw that other forum members were happy w/ their buys from him, and he always takes time to answer my endless questions.. so it was a go.
When it comes time for myself to sell the animals I produce this year, I hope that enough people will trust me, to buy from me; sure, I have never sold anything I have bred yet, but I am a trustworthy person and I only hope that people would realize that and buy from me, rather than some fly-by-night who's never posted a forum before. Sure, us smaller people are on a totally different level than Graziani or other huge breeders, but I believe that by building a rapport and making yourself visible, you can make it in your own niche.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

I agree with that price range, and I feel as a seller you dont have to take the buyers last dollar with an overpriced ball python! most of us small breeders are pure hobbyists that keep ball pythons for the pure enjoyment.

Most of the best quality ball pythons are coming from the smaller breeders that really care about what they are doing. :)

If you think that the high quality snakes are only coming from the big ballers and you want to pay a few hundred dollars extra, thats your choice.

Shop around, but do your homework. There are some great buys on BP morphs and they are not hard to find. :)

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:rockon:

Top notch quality, service and care are not just guaranteed with the highest prices or the biggest names. These are qualities you should expect at all levels regardless of status. I've learned this lesson in the short time I have spent shopping around and getting to know who I'm interested in buying from. Some contacts I have made I would rather not deal with and did not buy from! Others have become what I consider friends to which I stay in contact with weekly, if not daily. I try and get to know who I'm buying from regardless of status and simply ask a ton of questions. Some sellers are helpful and genuinely care about what they do regardless of where they are in the game. Others have the "show me the money" attitude and these can be found all over the board at any price!

Everyone is an unknown until someone gives them a chance! As most of these forums are full of future breeders at some level. I would think you would support each other and not assume the worst, simply because someone is willing to sell for $100 or $1000 less than someone else may want for the same snake. Heck, I see that as a positive, more money in my pocket that I can spend elsewhere in my life or maybe even on another snake.

As Adam mentioned, there is a seller out there to cater to any buyer on any budget.

I guess the point I was trying to get across is that high price doesn't necessarily mean better quality. There are plenty of stellar snakes in the price range I posted previously.

And I agree with you Ed.

The point I was trying to make is - there is more to purchasing a quality animal than "the best deal".


There are several members here who are just starting out, that I would not hesitate to purchase from - not because of some perceived "deal" I might get out of it, but because I've seen their participation on this forum, seen pictures of their collections, and believe them to care for their animals in the same manner that I do.

I think Sean at EBN sums it up best in his new banner "Examine the snake, not the deal".

I took away from this thread more talk about the best deal. I'm simply saying, to me, the best deal is the whole package, not just the animal. Smaller breeders can also offer the whole package. I'm not saying don't buy from the small breeder, I hope to be the small breeder in a year or two. But I'd like to emulate breeders in this business who I share the same ideals with.

Price is not the most important. The best deal is a quality, healthy, beautiful animal and a seller that backs up their stock and offers A+ customer service. However this does not have to come with a huge price.
I see no one here going 'look for the cheapest animal so you don't have to pay'. I see people that have worked hard for their money and are wanting to invest in something they enjoy and being selective on who they spend money with.

No matter how we go about it though price plays a big part. There is no logical reason to spend $1600 on a spider when you can get just as nice of one from breeder #2 for $400 less and still get the 'extended warrenty' as I like to call it. If both breeders and animals are equal then price will come into play.

Sure, there are people who want only the cheapest and in the end they will probably get burned more times then not but those are also the people who probably don't do their homework and don't care much about where their snake comes from.

High price does not necessarily equal quality is my point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by newbpfanatic

:rockon:

Top notch quality, service and care are not just guaranteed with the highest prices or the biggest names. These are qualities you should expect at all levels regardless of status. I've learned this lesson in the short time I have spent shopping around and getting to know who I'm interested in buying from. Some contacts I have made I would rather not deal with and did not buy from! Others have become what I consider friends to which I stay in contact with weekly, if not daily. I try and get to know who I'm buying from regardless of status and simply ask a ton of questions. Some sellers are helpful and genuinely care about what they do regardless of where they are in the game. Others have the "show me the money" attitude and these can be found all over the board at any price!

Everyone is an unknown until someone gives them a chance! As most of these forums are full of future breeders at some level. I would think you would support each other and not assume the worst, simply because someone is willing to sell for $100 or $1000 less than someone else may want for the same snake. Heck, I see that as a positive, more money in my pocket that I can spend elsewhere in my life or maybe even on another snake.

As Adam mentioned, there is a seller out there to cater to any buyer on any budget.

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:rockon: That's what's up!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Entropy

Price is not the most important. The best deal is a quality, healthy, beautiful animal and a seller that backs up their stock and offers A+ customer service. However this does not have to come with a huge price.
I see no one here going 'look for the cheapest animal so you don't have to pay'. I see people that have worked hard for their money and are wanting to invest in something they enjoy and being selective on who they spend money with.

No matter how we go about it though price plays a big part. There is no logical reason to spend $1600 on a spider when you can get just as nice of one from breeder #2 for $400 less and still get the 'extended warrenty' as I like to call it. If both breeders and animals are equal then price will come into play.

Sure, there are people who want only the cheapest and in the end they will probably get burned more times then not but those are also the people who probably don't do their homework and don't care much about where their snake comes from.

High price does not necessarily equal quality is my point.

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Another great post! Amen! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Another thing is, MKR was considered a PRO until they cut prices and fell from grace!

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That's the difference between being on the "inside" and the "outside" in this business ... no one "in the know" every really considered MKR a "pro" ... they were a couple of guys around a couple of years that threw big money around to build a high end collection fast ... that's a fact ... NERD, PKR, RDR, VPI, etc have been around the business for well over a DECADE ... they have made all the mistakes already and know how to do it right ... without them, we would have no ball biz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

There is no such thing as ZERO risks!

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I disagree completely ... build a relationship with a real breeder and he/she will take care of you til the cows come home.

There are a TON of great hobbyists out there that sell great animals at great prices ... but when it comes down to it, they have real jobs Monday thru Friday, families, and other obligations that don't always allow them the time to do what it takes to help all of their customers when they need help ... I know this for a fact because I get so many calls, emails, and PM's from people that have bought from "little guys" that need helps and can't get a hold of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

But, to assume and post on forums that I have a higher chance of being scammed by Joe or ED than I do by RDR without knowing Joe or ED, doesn't seem right!

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Who said anything about Joe or ED? ... Joe Compel is one of the best names in the business and whether ED likes to admit it or not, he's a player for sure. ;) :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Maybe in some eyes Joe and Ed are crap because they sell for less!

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If you honestly believe that is what I'm saying than you are missing my point completely. If that's the case, I'm very sorry for you ... I've been around this business a very long time ... not as a hobbyist just keeping a couple of snakes, but "IN" this business and have a lot to share about my experiences ... Sometimes people only hear what they want I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I think we all need to respect each other and it seems every time someone posts about a good deal or being happy with a purchase that is below what others feel, it's a becomes mess and lets kill these threads!

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It only becomes a mess when someone decides to go on and on trying to prove that they are "right" or "better" ... when someone posts about "deals" I sometimes give my opinion because I've been there done that and know how "deals" can have the potential to go bad ... I'm usually jumped on by people saying that cheaper + quality is just as good or better ... fine, I never dispute that ... I just share my views and respond to criticisms of those views ... why is it that the people that are getting the deals always get their panties wadded up and cry that they're being attacked? or feel the need to justify their view? ... If you really got such a good deal and someone posts that they'd rather pay more from a big breeder why not just laugh at that person ... I mean if the deal was really that good and all?

I buy from big breeders ... that's my preference ... I don't see what is so wrong with that.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

If you think that the high quality snakes are only coming from the big ballers and you want to pay a few hundred dollars extra, thats your choice.

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Amen Ed ... couldn't have said it better myself! :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Entropy

however in defense of some of the smaller breeders they are just as likely to offer 'follow up' service.

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Absolutely, there are TONS of great smaller breeders out there!

-adam

When buying from a hobbiest the thing to remember is that there are going to be some out there that this is just a hobby. They don't care about customers or their rep. They have the fleamarket mindset (this is what I got take it or leave it. And I might not be here next week so get what you can now). Then there are guys like me and Chris and Joe (joepythons) and Jamie and Tim. That know some real players in the biz i.e Adam, Greg, Sean, Joe ect and are on first name, home phone number basis with them. It would kill us to have our customers talk bad about us. I know it would me my animals and customers are the primary thing in my mind, because lets face it a collection of great morphs that'll breed for you, a business does not make.

The main thing is like Adam said some hobbiest and 99.9995% of big breeders take real pride in their craft and for the others it just brings in a little extra vacation money. So be carefull and get to know your breeder prior to buying from them.

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]That's the difference between being on the "inside" and the "outside" in this business ... no one "in the know" every really considered MKR a "pro" ... they were a couple of guys around a couple of years that threw big money around to build a high end collection fast ... that's a fact .

EXACTLY, Joe Capone presented himself as a Ball Python expert. and in reality had little or no knowledge of these wonderful little pythons. his precence in the hobby was brief, but disruptive. and seemed to open alot of eyes as to what you dont want from a seller/breeder. :peace:

I say examine the breeder regardless of price or name, examine the snake regardless of breeder, and last but not least, examine the deal to make sure it's within your budget and you are paying what you are happy with. Shop around and do your homework regardless of who you are buying from to minimize your risks.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The main thing is like Adam said some hobbiest and 99.9995% of big breeders take real pride in their craft and for the others it just brings in a little extra vacation money. So be carefull and get to know your breeder prior to buying from them.

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Whew! You said in two sentences exactly what I was trying to say in several posts.

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Then there are guys like me and Chris and Joe (joepythons) and Jamie and Tim. That know some real players in the biz i.e Adam, Greg, Sean, Joe ect and are on first name, home phone number basis with them. It would kill us to have our customers talk bad about us.

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Where's my name? Am I chopped suey?? :P Oh wait, not breeding this season, but next season - watch out! ;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Oh wait, not breeding this season, but next season - watch out! ;)

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Well until then keep raising up them ball pythons and best of luck next season!:)

Guys, I want to get off this thread and let this rest as we can go on for weeks. All I am saying is, IMO 99% of the keepers, hobbyist and small breeders out there are good honest well intent people that will support you regardless of what price they sell for!

Whether it's a top quality $1000 Spider or a top quality $700 Spider. If people only bought from those who've been around for 10 years and made $1,000,000+, no one would buy from 99% of the members on these forums who for the most part have great snakes and are honest good caring hobbyist!

I see nothing wrong with those who buy from NERD or RDR and the other Big breeders. I see nothing wrong with those who decide to pay more money than me. I've never read a single thread from someone buying from these Big breeders and getting beat or harassed for possibly paying too much. Yet, if anyone post they bought from breeder "B" for less $$$...there is hell to pay from those who want to dictate price!

That's all I'm saying...

:rockon:

My thing is this: why do certain people feel the need to broadcast details of private deals publically on forums or through other channels? I understand the excitement of getting a new snake, but does it really make you 'feel' any better to broadcast private details on your computer to a bunch of strangers, most of which you will never meet?

If a breeder, big or small, gave me a great deal for whatever reason...I would not advertise publically out of consideration for that breeder and their future business. That 'great deal' can quickly become the new starting point for negotiations with future customers, basically taking money right out of their pocket if they happen to have a customer willing to pay more.

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

All I am saying is, IMO 99% of the keepers, hobbyist and small breeders out there are good honest well intent people that will support you regardless of what price they sell for!

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In my experience over the years it seems that the scammers are in far greater numbers than 1% ... I'm speaking from real experience in this hobby/business ... more than just a couple of snakes and a couple of years worth ... this is and has been my life for a long time.

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

If people only bought from those who've been around for 10 years and made $1,000,000+, no one would buy from 99% of the members on these forums who for the most part have great snakes and are honest good caring hobbyist

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First of all, no one is making a million dollars breeding snakes ... get that idea out of your head ... second, if you had any idea of the real scope of the ball market, you'd realize that 99% of the ball pythons sold are sold by 1% of the ball breeders out there and those breeders are the top echelon of this hobby/business ... the numbers that the big guys are producing and selling are several orders of magnitude higher than all of the small guys combined. The ball python market is HUGE, and the ball python market is STRONG, there is plenty of room for the smaller hobby breeders to sell there animals for whatever prices.

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I see nothing wrong with those who buy from NERD or RDR and the other Big breeders. I see nothing wrong with those who decide to pay more money than me.

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Yet you feel the need to go on and on with this??

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I've never read a single thread from someone buying from these Big breeders and getting beat or harassed for possibly paying too much.

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

those who want to dictate price!

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You proved my point exactly ... thank you Steven!

So who are the people that want to dictate price? Don't be shy, name some names!!! We'd all like to know! :D :sweeet:

-adam

Adam, a few members on this thread mentioned that the price for Spiders that they have seen and even sold is somewhere between $700-$800. You indicated that your price was $1000, then those that posted $700-$800 were accused by some calling those selling at those prices dumpers or lesser breeders or people that may not service their customers. Not only that, but you can read other posts where anyone mentions a good deal and WAM!

I think it's clear where the dictatorship lies in this biz! :D :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

You indicated that your price was $1000

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That is untrue. I never once mentioned anything about my prices in this thread nor did I EVER suggest what price any animal SHOULD BE sold for.

Dictatorship? Where in the world are you getting that from? How can anyone control what anyone else does in this business? You seem to be a little out of touch with reality on that one Steven.

As a matter of fact, on this very thread I've stated ..

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Nothing wrong with being on a tight budget and looking for deals! ... The cool thing about this hobby is that there are breeders that cater to customers on every level. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I say good for the people that get the deals! ... They have a right to brag!

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I think my point was that it doesn't matter if you're looking to save a few bucks (for whatever reason) or if you're looking for a higher end shopping experience, there are breeders in this business that can satisfy every type of consumer. :sweeet:

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Steven,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that ... you've made a lot of posts in this thread that seem to be justifying getting getting "deals" on animals ... no need to defend yourself, everyone loves deals and no one is saying that you're wrong for buying like that ... if it works for you great!

-adam

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I believe in live and let live and people making their own choices ... I give my point of view here because this is a "discussion board" and I am "discussing" ... I don't expect anyone to agree with me or do as I say, the notion that anyone would is ridiculous ... I do expect that my opinions would at least be respected just as I respect yours and everyone else’s ... I think that mature people know how to just agree to disagree ... I guess that is too much to expect of you Steven ... I'm highly insulted by your insinuation.

And if you'd like to resort to name calling ... fine, call me what you will ... from the bevy of PM's that I just got, it's clear to everyone where your maturity level is.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

And if you'd like to resort to name calling ... fine, call me what you will ...
-adam

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Name calling doesn't help anything, that itself is immature... I would much rather discuss as I am doing right now. No need to add any negativity to a discussion that only ruins things...

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Name calling doesn't help anything, that itself is immature...

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So why the need to call me a dictator? Grow up.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

this is a "discussion board" and I am "discussing" ...I do expect that my opinions would at least be respected just as I respect yours and everyone else’s ... I think that mature people know how to just agree to disagree ... I guess that is too much to expect of you Steven ...

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So why the need to call me a dictator? Grow up.

-adam

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so Let's please keep this a healthy positive mature discussion please...

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

so Let's please keep this a healthy positive mature discussion please...

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So calling me a dictator is "a healthy positive mature discussion"? Are you high?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So calling me a dictator is "a healthy positive mature discussion"? Are you high?

-adam

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I didn't call you a dictator...why are you taking things so personal?
And I'm doing my part in keeping this healthy/positive/mature...I never said anything about calling people names or anything...just simply debating and having a discussion voicing MY opinion

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

I didn't call you a dictator...why are you taking things so personal?
And I'm doing my part in keeping this healthy/positive/mature...I never said anything about calling people names or anything...just simply debating and having a discussion voicing MY opinion

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No, but honestly Steve, you sure implied it:

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You indicated that your price was $1000, then those that posted $700-$800 were accused by some calling those selling at those prices dumpers or lesser breeders or people that may not service their customers. Not only that, but you can read other posts where anyone mentions a good deal and WAM!

I think it's clear where the dictatorship lies in this biz! :D :sweeet:

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Adam, you're taking this wayyy too personal...lol. I don't think in any of my posts do I mention your name or your posts! I was voicing my opinion and point of views on a subject matter being discussed in general on a public forum. I was simply debating and having a discussion, if you decided along the way this was a personal attack, you may be a tad too sensitive about the subject. Yet somehow, you feel when others are being put down for any reason, they should not take it personal and laugh it off.

Have a nice day Adam.