Rats versus Mice

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Originally Posted by nixer

rat supposedly make them grow bigger faster than mice.
personally i use rats, the only problem with rats are they pee all the time compared to mice and i tried african soft furred rats and they all killed each other but the one i have left. right now i have 2 female mice left and 1 female asf left im thinking of just keeping them as pets since ive had them for a few months anyway and the one mouse seems to be very curious of what im doing around the room.

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Where did you hear this?

I've got some mousers that are larger than some of my ratters, same aged snakes.

Not sure why you'd want them to grow faster anyway though?

These two girls were raised on mice. One has recently switched to rats, one prefers mice still (the larger of the two, incidently). Both were raised on two adult mice a week:

Echo '05 Female - raised on mice, recently converted to one 3-4 week old rat a week - 1200 grams
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...o/EchoJan3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...o/EchoJan5.jpg

Pandora '05 Female - raised on mice, will occassionally take a rat, but prefers 2 mice instead - 1400 grams
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...andoraJan3.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...andoraJan4.jpg

I feed my BPs rats, use to feed mice but not anymore. From everything I have read and heard, rats are better for them then mice, not that mice are bad. Rats are the way to go IMO, your going to have to feed them eventually anyway when they get bigger. Just my opinion though :)

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Originally Posted by ReptileMan27

I feed my BPs rats, use to feed mice but not anymore. From everything I have read and heard, rats are better for them then mice, not that mice are bad. Rats are the way to go IMO, your going to have to feed them eventually anyway when they get bigger. Just my opinion though :)

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Jason, why are rats better than mice? There are a lot of mousers in ball python collections that never eat rats, no matter how large they are.

There's been no study done on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, so I'm not sure how one can come to the conclusion that rats are better than mice.

That said - I would like all of mine to convert to rats, simply because I am now breeding rats, and not mice. Not because I think that rats are better for them, but because they smell less and are more fun to breed than mice.

I dont think they are better just bigger and as you BP gets bigger, bigger is better. Are we confused yet?

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

I dont think they are better just bigger and as you BP gets bigger, bigger is better. Are we confused yet?

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Not to be contrary (well, ok, maybe a little :P ) - but why is bigger better? Better for the snake, or more convenient for the keeper?

40 grams of rat or 40 grams of mice, what's the difference? Even my adults only get about 40-50 grams a week. They really don't need more than that.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Jason, why are rats better than mice? There are a lot of mousers in ball python collections that never eat rats, no matter how large they are.

There's been no study done on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, so I'm not sure how one can come to the conclusion that rats are better than mice.

That said - I would like all of mine to convert to rats, simply because I am now breeding rats, and not mice. Not because I think that rats are better for them, but because they smell less and are more fun to breed than mice.

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Well, if you look at the poll, its pretty safe to say most people dont have problems feeding rats;). Im sure it does happen, BPs that wont take rats but does that mean you shouldnt try it?, IMO if you can get you BP taking rats. Mice are kind of a small meal for an adult BP, of course you could feed a couple but personally I would rather just feed one rat. I personally never had any problems getting BPs to take rats.

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Originally Posted by ReptileMan27

Well, if you look at the poll, its pretty safe to say most people dont have problems feeding rats;). Im sure it does happen, BPs that wont take rats but does that mean you shouldnt try it?, IMO if you can get you BP taking rats. Mice are kind of a small meal for an adult BP, of course you could feed a couple but personally I would rather just feed one rat. I personally never had any problems getting BPs to take rats.

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Yes, and the poll did not ask which was better, it asked what people chose to feed.

My point is, if someone has chosen to feed mice only, we are doing a disservice to them telling them that rats are better. They may have no problems with feeding three or four mice to an adult bp vs. one rat.

Before I started breeding rats myself, the rats available for sale were too large for my collection, so mice worked better for me. Since I have personally observed how well my guys have grown on mice, I'm not too distressed over the ones that still prefer mice over rats.

Bottom line, my kids get what they'll eat, be it a mouse or a rat, and I'm not going to worry myself that the ones eating mice are somehow losing out nutritionally - they aren't. I see no difference in growth rate between the ones eating mice and the ones eating rats.

Hi, I'm new around here but feel this may add something to the discussion. This same topic came up on a corn snake forum I belong to and someone provided the OP with this link.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

Melissa

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Originally Posted by silverdust

Hi, I'm new around here but feel this may add something to the discussion. This same topic came up on a corn snake forum I belong to and someone provided the OP with this link.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf

Melissa

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Thank you for that link, I've not seen it before. But we're still back to square one. We don't know the nutritional requirements of ball pythons, so they may only require a fraction of what a mouse provides and so would meet its nutritional requirements with either prey.

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Originally Posted by westcoastjungle

I like rats because you can feed smaller rats which are incapable of harming a snake while large mouse that is still smaller is smarter, can defend itself or run like the ****ens! Escapees suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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That and I hate having to wait a week for the mice to grow to appropriate size before I can feed it off.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I feed rats. I have heard that they have a higher naturitional (sp) than mice. But I feed mice when young and rats when older..

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totally agree with all of that. i heard that rats were better for them.

You have to remember anyone can post "facts" on the internet. Just because you can read information on something that doesn't mean its true. I have never seen a study or article written by anybody that could be proven to have any scientific background to say that rats are more nutritional for ball pythons than mice. Most people that feed rats to ball pythons "prefer" rats because they can give a larger single meal.


The internet is full of heresay. Anyone can make a site and informational page, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Christina

totally agree with all of that. i heard that rats were better for them.

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I feed a ton of ball pythons every week ... some mice, some rats ... as long as their husbandry needs are being met I feel comfortable saying with great confidence that prey type makes absolutely no difference.

If you're trying to pump your snakes up as fast as possible, it can be done more efficiently with rats, but then you're in for a whole different set of problems.

For normal healthy growth, a ball python will do just as well on either rats or mice. Gram for gram, they are identical when it comes to meeting a ball pythons needs.

-adam

Rats vs mice, not an even fight (rat would win) :D

Rats seem to get them up to size faster as they are bigger meal. But I usually start them off on hopper mice and then get them on rats when they are around 250grams. Sometimes you are going to have a snake that won't eat rats but loves mice. It can be very frustrating. That is why I have to breed mice which stink way more than rats do!

Brock Wagner
Brock WagnerReptiles.com
402 202-8923:sabduel:

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Rats seem to get them up to size faster as they are bigger meal. But I usually start them off on hopper mice and then get them on rats when they are around 250grams. Sometimes you are going to have a snake that won't eat rats but loves mice. It can be very frustrating. That is why I have to breed mice which stink way more than rats do!

Brock Wagner
Brock WagnerReptiles.com
402 202-8923:sabduel:

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I am not seeing the logic in saying a rat is a bigger meal. If you are feeding pinky vs. pinky then you are right. But I do not see the difference in a 25 g rat vs. a 25 g mouse

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

I am not seeing the logic in saying a rat is a bigger meal. If you are feeding pinky vs. pinky then you are right. But I do not see the difference in a 25 g rat vs. a 25 g mouse

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I am pretty sure he is talking about feeding adult snakes and that rats get larger than adult mice. Some people feed a small rat rather then mutiple mice. ;)

I think it would have been interesting to have seen how many people feed both if that option had been in the poll.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I think it would have been interesting to have seen how many people feed both if that option had been in the poll.

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I do! :D

We feed rats. We raise them so it's real easy. :) Good Luck!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I do! :D

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So do I. ;) Thats why I haven't voted.

I feed monty Small Rats now but started on mice and he took to rats better I feel its up to the snake. :rockon:

I have raised several hundred babies from babies to adulthood. In my opinion its going to be up the individual snake as to which prey item they prefer.
I start every baby I hatch or get in from Captive hatched on mouse hoppers. In my experience it is much more stimulating to the snakes to eat quicker then on rat pinks or fuzzies. I ususally start trying to switch them to rats aroung 250 grams.. 90+% will switch no problems about 5% will never switch over...
Its easier to feed 1 rat instead of 5 mice to an adult ball.. thats why I try to switch them over.
I have had the experience to raise siblings side by side on rats and mice as one would not switch and believe it or not The mouse feeder grew faster, ate more and got to breeding size in 18 months(female)1800gr. while the other female was only 1100 grams at the same time...
Just one test I have done but it spoke to me that possibly mouse feeders can be better growers...
Also African Soft furred rats are the balls natural food source. I have now raised several animals solely on those... No real noticable difference to me...

My girl is stuck on mice right now at about 600 grams, Id like to get her back on rats but id rather see her eat then starve. The only thing I dont like about feeding rats is I find them a lot more personable then mice. They also scream to high hell when they get attacked. A good arguement for mice is the python usualy feeds more often when eating smaller meals compared to a small medium rat.

Rats are a lot more defensive and aggressive then mice. I have never seen a mouse strike at my bp but have seen a few rats.

Male mice stink to high hell, they can smell up my whole upstairs within a hour, the smell doesnt clear fora day or two. I feed strictly Female mice from now on!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Not to be contrary (well, ok, maybe a little :P ) - but why is bigger better? Better for the snake, or more convenient for the keeper?

40 grams of rat or 40 grams of mice, what's the difference? Even my adults only get about 40-50 grams a week. They really don't need more than that.

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Yes there is a difference, and I'm not talking nutrition either... (as previsously stated we do not know the nutritional needs of a ball python)

I read some research on the matter, (can't remember where at the moment, I'll look for it and get back to yall) that actually states two mice is better for a snake than a rat. Sure, the rat may be more nutritous, but 2+ mice has everything a bp needs and then some. The reason two+ mice is better for a snake is due to the size and ease of digestion. Skin and hair are VERY taxing on the digestive system to digest and usually the last parts digested along with the bones. So then if the skin/hair is the last thing to be digested, then how does the rest of the animal get digested first? Easy, the acids seep in through the bodies orifaces, aka the mouse and rectum and digest the prey from the inside out. Two+ mice provide atleast twice the openings for acids to reach their targets and aids/speeds digestion hence causing less stress to the snake because it is widely known that digestion is a whole body experience for a snake. Digestive tract has to expand, organs secrete far more bodily juices to digest the prey, the heart enlarges, breathing becomes labored. etc etc.

This is not to say that feedig rats is bad, however contrary to popular belief 2+ mice are just as good, if not better than an equivalent sized rat.:salute:

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

The reason two+ mice is better for a snake is due to the size and ease of digestion. Skin and hair are VERY taxing on the digestive system to digest and usually the last parts digested along with the bones.

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I think the idea that rats are more nutritious comes from the fact that you can get the same amount of usable meat out of a single rat as multiple mice that ultimately weigh more (due to the increased surface area and amount of bone structure in the multiple smaller animals).

That said, I would expect the opposite of your explanation of the effect on the snake's digestive system to be true. Seeing as how the digestive fluids in a snake work from the inside out, it would seem the lower surface area of the rat would make for faster and more complete digestion, since it only has to seep into a single package that is smaller (by volume) than the numerous smaller packages required to provide an equivilent amount of usable food.

I feed rats. I don't try to feed multiple prey items.

Here's a link to rodentpro's nutritional guide. From looking at it I guess it depends on what you think you snake needs and everything varies depending on age and weight of the prey item. So its up to the individual owner on what they are shooting for.

http://rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

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Originally Posted by erobinson

Here's a link to rodentpro's nutritional guide. From looking at it I guess it depends on what you think you snake needs and everything varies depending on age and weight of the prey item.

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Looking at that chart, it seems that the nutrition to waste ratio of a domestic mouse is at it peak between 3-10g, and goes down from there, whereas the rats continue to increase that ratio with size. This would seem to infer that if your snake is taking in more than a 10g mouse, it would probably be better off on rats.

(of course YMMV -- we feed mice because they're little bastards, and we like rats)

I can't claim to know anything specific about the physical makeup of mice versus rats. But based on my general knowledge I am very skeptical that there is any significant nutritional difference between mice and rats. Certainly there will be differences in the relative amounts of various compounds. My guess is that, whatever they are, they are negligible.

Let's suppose rats and mice would both be considered "red" meat. So, a corollary in humans might be asking whether lamb or beef is "more nutritional". I'm guessing you could make a convincing argument for beef but I really doubt you could prove it had any significant effect on average lifespan.

Anway, I make the rat vs. mouse choice based solely on size. I feed my little corn mouse pinkies. I feed my JCP small or medium rats. I switch between rats and mice for my BP depending on how big a meal I want to give him.

Funny, looking at that table, mice actually seem slightly better to me because they are leaner. I would have guessed the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It doesn't matter.

I've raised tons of animals from the same clutchs where one would decide to be a mouser and a sibling would decide to eat rats and they are all within a few grams of each other.

No speculation here, been there done that. ;)

-adam

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that makes me feel much better.. we have a couple rats for pets and i couldnt imagine feeding cameron a rat. when we had snakes before i had no problems feeding rats but once our pet rats came into our lives, no way! I was concerned with the nut. value of mice-vs-rat.. thanks for the insight

My guy is still pretty young so I'm still feeding him mice, I'll probably switch over to rats when he gets older.

I live in Alberta, a province in western Canada. We are supposedly rat free (excluding lab rats), so having a live rat here is a big no-no. If caught with a live rat(s), you may face a fine of up to $5000.00 and/or 60 days in jail. Since i breed my own feeders to save money, i only have the mouse option available to me.

Robin

Uhhh, what would I put for both? Ifeed my smaller snakes mice, and bigger snakes rats..

Well, I picked rat- I like feeding rats better to my adults as comparison to a mouse.. Aside from the $2.75 differnce...

The natural food for BPS in the wild are rats , not mice !

I don't see why this thread is a debate. Either food source is a great choice. Now we should make a thread, gerbils Vs. Hamster Vs. rat

No, dear.. The natural food source for Ball Pythons are RODENTS and the occassional bird, not just rats. Balls in Africa have never seen what we call a rat(the domesticated rat anyway).

I know that none of mine eat rats and they sure aren't suffering from malnourishment(Jenny Craig anyone?).

I have heard from a fairly accurate source (zoo animal keeper) that the head of a ball python may not develop to it's full size if fed strictly small rodents like mice.
I prefer the ability to keep them on one scent their whole life. Routine being the main focus.
Rats seem to be the answer to feeding, one live animal at a time time, feeding system.

rats for my big girl, mice for my little guy. :)

I have feed only mice for the 2 or so years I have had my BP, and mice for my king snake as well. But I have been considering trying out a small or med rat for my BP. She is about 3 1/2 ft long, not sure of her weight, I need to get a scale. I think she will eat whatever I put in front of her.

Usually it's been rats, (and FT ones at that) and I was breeding my own, but recently my fasting male has started eating again, but on mice. :( So at this time, it's both.

Mice. The pet shop closest to me will not sell pinkies or fuzzies.
Small adult only & they are to big for Eddy to eat. I've tried several times. My daughter does have a breeding colony of mice for my King Snake & Eddy the ball seems to eat those alot better.

Mice, and I breed my own...

Both, and some of my snakes will eat either. Rats seem to be good for the big females who are large enough to eat small-med rats. I've always had problems getting baby ball sized rats, even Petco doesn't usually carry anything less than smalls. It sucks for my one rat pup feeding girl because everything else is locally available. I think my next rodent order will be a ton of everything so i don't have the excuse to go blow lots of money at the pet stores!
"i need some mice, and woa, that's a cool hide/book/magazine!" XD


It really doesn't matter what they eat as long as they eat well!!!

I feed rats. I find they outgrow mice quickly. I have a hard enough time getting them to eat one rat a week I couldn't imaging trying to feed my large females 5+ mice a week..

Everyone has a preference pick what works for you.

I feed the babies Hoppers and then when they are large enough I start them on rats.

I feed rats whenever possible. I seem to notice better growth from my BPs as compared to mice.

One option is missing in this poll.... Both rats and mice, I dont feed rats until the snakes are big enough to eat a small-medium rat... Mice you can buy them big enough to equal the size of rats for cheaper... Jumbo mice only go so far. Then you need to feed rats...

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Originally Posted by Mochelem

One option is missing in this poll.... Both rats and mice, I dont feed rats until the snakes are big enough to eat a small-medium rat... Mice you can buy them big enough to equal the size of rats for cheaper... Jumbo mice only go so far. Then you need to feed rats...

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Really? All of my big girls who could easily consume a large rat if they needed to, are on mice. They eat 3-4 medium - large adult mice every 7-10 days(less if they are gravid or if they are chunky).

Weight of the prey is the only thing that matters. If mice are cheaper, and your snake eats them, buy those. If rats are cheaper and your snake eats them, buy those instead.