Suggestions on how to handle this

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Adam,wouldn't this be favoring the "pros" over the average breeders? Majority of the people know just looking at the tails is NOT a correct way of sexing a snake.

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Well, knowing that there is at least one person out there that is selling an investment animal and made that mistake, how do you know what the "majority of people" do and do not know? I know one thing for sure ... breeders like RDR, NERD, VPI, PKR, etc that have literally built this business have not been doing this for over a decade NOT KNOWING how to sex an animal ... just something to think about next time you see that "hot deal" on the classifieds from someone that you've never heard of before ... sometimes the money you save just isn't worth the problems that could occur.

-adam

SPJ...your deal was done the moment you sent payment and had the snake shipped to your door.

This "breeder" has no legal claim to any additional funds from you.

If you send him any money or correspond with him any further, you're a dummy.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, knowing that there is at least one person out there that is selling an investment animal and made that mistake, how do you know what the "majority of people" do and do not know? I know one thing for sure ... breeders like RDR, NERD, VPI, PKR, etc that have literally built this business have not been doing this for over a decade NOT KNOWING how to sex an animal ... just something to think about next time you see that "hot deal" on the classifieds from someone that you've never heard of before ... sometimes the money you save just isn't worth the problems that could occur.

-adam

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Well maybe this person whom Steve bought the snake from was in the wrong line when they were handing out brains lol.When i read this i just took it as you were favoring those "pro" breeders over anyone else including yourself.Basicly i took it as for instance someone saying don't buy anything from anyone but Adam because he gives you a shirt:P .Everyone makes mistakes and we ALL learn from them.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Well maybe this person whom Steve bought the snake from was in the wrong line when they were handing out brains lol.When i read this i just took it as you were favoring those "pro" breeders over anyone else including yourself.Basicly i took it as for instance someone saying don't buy anything from anyone but Adam because he gives you a shirt:P .Everyone makes mistakes and we ALL learn from them.

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Joe ... What are you talking about? ... I think what I said was pretty clear ... There are tons of advantages of buying from big breeders over little guys, and yes including me. The problems Steve had and is having with this deal are a classic example.

Who said anything about not buying from anyone but me? That's ridiculous. I do just fine with sales ;) ... I don't need to come on here and whore myself out ... I'm comfortable enough with my business and the value that I provide to my customrs to be able to tell people to start with the pros and if things don't work out, look elsewhere.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

just something to think about next time you see that "hot deal" on the classifieds from someone that you've never heard of before ... sometimes the money you save just isn't worth the problems that could occur.

-adam

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Joe, I think the important part of what Adam is saying is in the quote posted above. There are plenty of trustworthy small breeders, but there are just as many that aren't. If you don't know anything about the breeder you should do your research before hand.

IMO if they sex their snakes by tail length, then they are lucky to even have produced a clutch. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Joe, I think the important part of what Adam is saying is in the quote posted above. There are plenty of trustworthy small breeders, but there are just as many that aren't. If you don't know anything about the breeder you should do your research before hand.

IMO if they sex their snakes by tail length, then they are lucky to even have produced a clutch. ;)

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Bill,i understand the concerns about the unknown breeders not being trusting.I just took it as Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders,i guess i misread it the way he wrote it.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I just took it as Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders,i guess i misread it the way he wrote it.

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I did not saying or type anything even remotely close. People should buy from who they want to buy from. I was just giving my opinion on what I feel is a major differnece between buying from professional ball python breeders and unknown names on classifieds that would have prevented Steves misfortune as described in this thread.

Can we please stick to what is actually being posted and not interpretations based on personal bias? ... I'm not a real big fan of people attempting to put words in my mouth. Thanks. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I did not saying or type anything even remotely close. People should buy from who they want to buy from. I was just giving my opinion on what I feel is a major differnece between buying from professional ball python breeders and unknown names on classifieds that would have prevented Steves misfortune as described in this thread.

Can we please stick to what is actually being posted and not interpretations based on personal bias? ... I'm not a real big fan of people attempting to put words in my mouth. Thanks. ;) :sweeet:

-adam

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Adam no one is attempting to "put words in your mouth",i was just commenting on how i took your comments.I am not the only one that took your words the same as i did either,someone just pmed me and agreed they felt the same as myself.Like you have told myself and others repeatedly when i see something i disagree on i am going to put in my :2cent: .That is all i was doing plain and simple nothing more.

I too interpreted your words the same as Joe did Adam, in fact I'm probably the PM Joe is speaking of. I don't see anyone putting words in your mouth but sometimes it's helpful to understand how others take what we say so we can clear up any misconceptions.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

I too interpreted your words the same as Joe did Adam, in fact I'm probably the PM Joe is speaking of. I don't see anyone putting words in your mouth but sometimes it's helpful to understand how others take what we say so we can clear up any misconceptions.

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I thank you.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Adam no one is attempting to "put words in your mouth"

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders

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You're right, it was far more than an attempt. Next time you're not able to comprehend what my words mean, maybe you should ask instead of making wildly speculative statements that just aren't true?

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I am not the only one that took your words the same as i did either,someone just pmed me and agreed they felt the same as myself.

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Well, it's no mystery that I do have many fans here. :wuv:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Like you have told myself and others repeatedly when i see something i disagree on i am going to put in my :2cent: .That is all i was doing plain and simple nothing more.

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Disagree on? You're two cents? You took my words and twisted them to mean something completely different than what I posted ... There's a big difference between disputing something posted as fact that you feel is inaccurate and making false statements about another poster based on what you "think" they are trying to say.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You're right, it was far more than an attempt. Next time you're not able to comprehend what my words mean, maybe you should ask instead of making wildly speculative statements that just aren't true?



Well, it's no mystery that I do have many fans here. :wuv:



Disagree on? You're two cents? You took my words and twisted them to mean something completely different than what I posted ... There's a big difference between disputing something posted as fact that you feel is inaccurate and making false statements about another poster based on what you "think" they are trying to say.

-adam

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Well if thats what i have done here in your opinion i must have learned it from the "pros".I gotta go pickup the kid at school so see everyone later.:)

Adam, I don't think it's quite fair to quote just what you see fit. Joe specifically said that "I just took it as.." which you just happen not to have quoted.
You're getting very defensive over a simple comment where someone explained how they took your post.

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Originally Posted by Entropy

I too interpreted your words the same as Joe did Adam

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And in my opinion (for whatever that's worth these days) that's fine ... everyone is entitled to their opinions ... me, you, and most certainly Joe ... but interpreting my words is one thing ... posting things like this ...

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Originally Posted by joepythons

saying don't buy anything from anyone but Adam because he gives you a shirt

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders

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Is an entirely different thing all together and from my point of view, obviously quite offensive.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Entropy

Adam, I don't think it's quite fair to quote just what you see fit. Joe specifically said that "I just took it as.." which you just happen not to have quoted.
You're getting very defensive over a simple comment where someone explained how they took your post.

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And when someone that doesn't know me, you, or Joe reads this thread 5 years from now, what part do you think is going to echo in their heads ... The "I just took it as" or the "Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders".

As far as being defensive, normally, I would have just blown off his comments all together as Joe just being Joe, but after an exchange of PM's Joe and I had not too long ago, I'm positive that there's a lot more to it.

-adam

Disregarding the massive argument not directly related to the post...

Has anyone noticed that Pastels are actually much cheaper than 400$ for a male now? I just looked on Kingsnake Classifieds as well as NERD's website. You can get a male Pastel for about ~$250 and a female for ~$450 on Kingsnake. Buying a female directly from NERD will only set you back ~$850.

Since SPJ already paid $400 for the male, I'd say that offering $350 was a grand gesture. I wouldn't even have told the buyer in the first place. But if I were in SPJ's position at the moment, I would probably choose to pay him a maximum of $50, or nothing at all. Probably nothing. Depends on whatever makes you sleep easier at night. For me it's nothing. LOL. :P

Ktzero3 It really depends on who you get them from. The prices still range from 150-550 for males and 250-850 for females from what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

And when someone that doesn't know me, you, or Joe reads this thread 5 years from now, what part do you think is going to echo in their heads ... The "I just took it as" or the "Adam was saying NOT to buy from anyone else but the "pro" breeders".

As far as being defensive, normally, I would have just blown off his comments all together as Joe just being Joe, but after an exchange of PM's Joe and I had not too long ago, I'm positive that there's a lot more to it.

-adam

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Adam,see now you are "putting words into my mouth" now isn't that contradicting what you felt i was doing to yourself.Since the two of us have the only clue of what was in our pm i will explain a little from what i remember.I had pmed Adam about something said on another post and asked him why was he being so rude towards myself.After a few pm back and forth of where i stated i do care what others think of me and do not want anyone disliking me because of a misunderstanding.Adam you came back to where you do not care what others think and you are set in your ways.Truthfully i do not have the pms saved so this is barely everything we pmed each other about and its just the faint memory of everything.So could you explain how you are "positive that there's alot more to it"? To tell you the TRUTH i can not even remember what thread or what your comments were that made me pm you in the first place.So no there is NOT more to anything,i just made my opinion of what i took your comments as.I also dislike when people(i said people AKA anyone on any site) only quote certain parts of someones comments as it leaves out the rest of the comment.I was not going to reply to this anymore, but i thought someone in the future might wonder why i never replied and might think bad thought about myself.So i just voiced my :2cent: and added a little of the left out comments.I thank you

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I thank you

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You're welcome! ;)

:rockon:

-adam

So Steve, any updates?

If he offers you a same weight/age male in trade, that is fair.

Offering an 07 male is a slap in the face. By the time you got the 07 male the 06 male you should have gotten would be breeding size and worth much more. Plus the 07 would probably be worth less than $400

I would say trading the female + cash for a male of similar weight, or selling the female, buying a male of similar size/weight and giving the extra cash back to the seller would be fair, but in this case that would definitely be going the extra mile, especially after how the seller handled this.




As far as Adam's post, I thought it was fairly straight forward. If you want to be guaranteed a smooth transaction, 100% satisfaction guaranteed, and no risk at your breeding plans being disrupted, then go with an established, larger breeder. If you had gone with a larger breeder, chances are they would have had an 06 male they could have offered back to you to make things right.

Of course you often pay more for this guarantee, but when you are dealing with expensive investments or pets, and are working on a breeding timeline, that is a choice you have to make for yourself.

This isn't to say smaller breeers are unreliable, but the majority of the time they will have less experience, less inventory for replacements, less room to flex when they need to make things right. I've experienced this firsthand, and learned the hard way. Even positive references are no guarantee if you arent dealing with established breeders who have been around.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

I never should have contacted him. :mad:

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Contacting him was fine...Maybe he'll be more cautious when selling his animals.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

I will offer to send $350 more to make up for it and that's it. It may sound harsh but that is my take it or leave it offer.

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Why? it was his mistake. If anything you did him a favor by letting him know it was a female and that he should be a little more sure when he sends the snake.

Maybe "I AM" Sounding harsh but...You have been feeding it, cleaning up after it and caring for it. Your heart is already involved lol...

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Originally Posted by Kizerk

if i was the breeder, i would just let you keep the ball, because it’s my own mistake,and I wouldn’t make my customers wait a couple of months to receive their animals, nor would I make them pay a couple hundreds more.

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couldn't have said it better...

If what I am about to say has already been siad feel free to remove it.
Heres my two cents worth. You Paid for a 06 Male and got an 06 female because the breeder made a mistake. Hey mistakes happen no biggie. But you paid for an 06 if you ship the snake back then he should discount the 07 male cause you paid for an 06 you didn't get and pay the shipping. Thats option one if you don't mind waiting and having a younger snkae. Or Option two, If he has no more 06 males then the least he can do is allow you to keep the female and take the loss, bad for the breeder.
The way he has it now your paying for shipping again to send the animal back to him and paying for a younger animal. Or paying for an animal that you didn't want by giving him the differance. Both of his options put you at a severe disadvantage. You paid to have the 06 male shipped once $45.00 then your paying to send the snake back $45.00. Thats 90.00 to ship a snake you don't get to keep he said that he would pay to have the new snake shipped to you. :colbert: the shipping should be paid by him both ways for old and new animal. See if he'll work with you one this.

He is trying to get the most out of this he can. Be Careful

Just my two cents

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

If he offers you a same weight/age male in trade, that is fair.

Offering an 07 male is a slap in the face. By the time you got the 07 male the 06 male you should have gotten would be breeding size and worth much more. Plus the 07 would probably be worth less than $400

I would say trading the female + cash for a male of similar weight, or selling the female, buying a male of similar size/weight and giving the extra cash back to the seller would be fair, but in this case that would definitely be going the extra mile, especially after how the seller handled this.




As far as Adam's post, I thought it was fairly straight forward. If you want to be guaranteed a smooth transaction, 100% satisfaction guaranteed, and no risk at your breeding plans being disrupted, then go with an established, larger breeder. If you had gone with a larger breeder, chances are they would have had an 06 male they could have offered back to you to make things right.

Of course you often pay more for this guarantee, but when you are dealing with expensive investments or pets, and are working on a breeding timeline, that is a choice you have to make for yourself.

This isn't to say smaller breeers are unreliable, but the majority of the time they will have less experience, less inventory for replacements, less room to flex when they need to make things right. I've experienced this firsthand, and learned the hard way. Even positive references are no guarantee if you arent dealing with established breeders who have been around.

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Thats a good way of putting it.
:rockon:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

As far as Adam's post, I thought it was fairly straight forward. If you want to be guaranteed a smooth transaction, 100% satisfaction guaranteed, and no risk at your breeding plans being disrupted, then go with an established, larger breeder. If you had gone with a larger breeder, chances are they would have had an 06 male they could have offered back to you to make things right.

Of course you often pay more for this guarantee, but when you are dealing with expensive investments or pets, and are working on a breeding timeline, that is a choice you have to make for yourself.

This isn't to say smaller breeers are unreliable, but the majority of the time they will have less experience, less inventory for replacements, less room to flex when they need to make things right. I've experienced this firsthand, and learned the hard way. Even positive references are no guarantee if you arent dealing with established breeders who have been around.

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:rockon:

-adam

his mistake...if it was me i`d keep her to be honest...tell him to stick the cash diffrence where the sun dont shine!

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Originally Posted by veedubz

his mistake...if it was me i`d keep her to be honest...tell him to stick the cash diffrence where the sun dont shine!

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Well to be fair he did not pay for the female. Yes it was the breeders mistake but this is their business. We can just Stick it to everyone that makes a mistake. An I think their better people than that to just say " well tough Luck pay more attention next time". But the breeder should at lease offer him a couple of better options than he did.

You are totally in the right to keep the animal without paying any more. The breeder made a mistake (and a stupid one as how he was determining sex) and has to deal with it.

I say this is a good lesson when buying from breeders. So many people always hear "buy from a breeder" and assume that they all know what they are doing. Whenever buying a sexed snake, I'd ask about how it was determined, and what their policy is when a snake turnes out to be wrongly sexed.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

As far as Adam's post, I thought it was fairly straight forward. If you want to be guaranteed a smooth transaction, 100% satisfaction guaranteed, and no risk at your breeding plans being disrupted, then go with an established, larger breeder. If you had gone with a larger breeder, chances are they would have had an 06 male they could have offered back to you to make things right.

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Big breeder, small breeder... I don't think it matters that much in many circumstances. There is a lot of confusion out there and many people probably wouldn't know a NERD or PKR from an MKR or TSE. The best thing for any buyer to do is to ask questions, get references and do their homework. I certainly wouldn't pass up a quality snake from a reputable small breeder just to go with snake I wasn't that crazy about from a big name breeder.

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Originally Posted by arcane

You are totally in the right to keep the animal without paying any more. The breeder made a mistake (and a stupid one as how he was determining sex) and has to deal with it.

I say this is a good lesson when buying from breeders. So many people always hear "buy from a breeder" and assume that they all know what they are doing. Whenever buying a sexed snake, I'd ask about how it was determined, and what their policy is when a snake turnes out to be wrongly sexed.

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I agree that the breeder should make it right. I would tell the breeder. you sent me this snake as the one I paid for you want to send me a different one then you pay to have this one shipped back to you and send me the right age snake other wise consider this my snake and your stupid tax. THE BREEDER NEEDS TO BE THE ONE TO MAKE IT RIGHT! NOT THE CUSTOMER.

Just keep the darn snake and walk away from all the drama.

Most breeders that know what the heck they where doing, be they big or small know how to sex their products.
I mean really if the guy doesn't know how to sex what he is selling then maybe he needs to find a different job/hobby.

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Originally Posted by arcane

So many people always hear "buy from a breeder" and assume that they all know what they are doing.

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This seller is no "breeder".

-adam

Who did you buy from anyways? Maybe he'll wrongly sex a male for me and i'll get a female too! lol...


:rockon:

CAVEAT VENDITOR!!!


I concur with pretty much everyone else here - you were in no way at fault nor had any hand at all in the vendor's mistake.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Big breeder, small breeder... I don't think it matters that much in many circumstances. There is a lot of confusion out there and many people probably wouldn't know a NERD or PKR from an MKR or TSE. The best thing for any buyer to do is to ask questions, get references and do their homework. I certainly wouldn't pass up a quality snake from a reputable small breeder just to go with snake I wasn't that crazy about from a big name breeder.

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In my opinion there are two main circumstances. 1) Everything goes right 2) Something goes wrong.

I can safely say it won't matter much who you got the snake from if #1 is true (unless you are re-selling babies based on name), but when #2 is true, who you got the snake from almost always matters.

If a small breeder is extremely educated, plans very well, and has all of his ducks in a row, and is established, then there is no reason to hesitate buying from them. Finding out that this is true is the tricky part.

A few questions I would ask a smaller breeder. (no particular order)
1) how did you verify the sex
2) do you guarantee the health (short term) and genetics/sex(long term) of this snake
3) Did you produce this snake! (pictures of parents, and background on where they came from)
4) replacement policy if #2 becomes an issue. Do you keep enough of each back to cover mistakes in sexing


If you are buying from someone simply because the price is low, do a reality check. If this person is undercutting and selling super low, why? Is someone like this very likely to have a lot of extra money sitting around in case they need to do a refund? Are they likely to patiently hold onto snakes in case they need to offer a replacement for any reason? Small breeders may have less overhead than bigger/established breeders, but that doesn't mean their prices reflect a responsible approach to running a business.


I am a small/new/unestablished breeder. I have about 30-40 females that will go this year, and by next season probably 60'ish. After watching market prices and the way people are treating this hobby, I plan on keeping all of my prices up where the sane breeders have theirs. If the snakes don't sell, I will keep them and continue to feed them. For every X number of male _____ I sell, I plan on keeping at least 1 back. This is for the above reason, to have replacements available if needed. If I end up with them for a full year, I will rotate them into the breeding mix, and be able to sell them as proven breeders after that if I really have no need for them. I plan on having enough cash available to me to handle any additional shipping costs required to make mistakes right, as well as to handle refunds. Money from sales will go into an account, and a certain percentage will always stay in that account to cover any requested refunds. I am not putting myself in a position where I have to sell ANY snakes next year. I can keep or sell whatever I decide I want to, and my hand will not be forced to jump on the newest low market price in order to stay afloat.

I don't have a perfect picture/plan, but it is coming together. I think what I stated above is a good plan in order to avoid alot of the mistakes I have seen/experienced already as someone who has bought from smaller breeders. Heck, I even bought from a decent sized breeder who was somewhat established, and they came into money problems and couldn't refund me right away. S**T happens, but by going with someone who has a good system, and has proven it over and over again, you lower your chances for problems.

It will take me years to establish myself as a reputable breeder who always makes things right, but I am willing to put the time and effort and work my way up one sale at a time, and one satisifed customer at a time. I understand that I could have more sales if I dropped prices, but that isn't responsible, in my opinion.

I also understand that my earlier argument says "don't buy from people like me", who are small and haven't built up a name yet. If you do, it requires a lot of discretion and a lot of questions. Everyone has to start somewhere, but make sure if you are buying from a small breeder it is for reasons regarding the way they run things, rather than that they are selling at lower prices. Even small breeders can run things like the big guys as far as customer service, they just can't overextend themselves or they will run into trouble.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

In my opinion there are two main circumstances. 1) Everything goes right 2) Something goes wrong.

I can safely say it won't matter much who you got the snake from if #1 is true (unless you are re-selling babies based on name), but when #2 is true, who you got the snake from almost always matters.

If a small breeder is extremely educated, plans very well, and has all of his ducks in a row, and is established, then there is no reason to hesitate buying from them. Finding out that this is true is the tricky part.

A few questions I would ask a smaller breeder. (no particular order)
1) how did you verify the sex
2) do you guarantee the health (short term) and genetics/sex(long term) of this snake
3) Did you produce this snake! (pictures of parents, and background on where they came from)
4) replacement policy if #2 becomes an issue. Do you keep enough of each back to cover mistakes in sexing


If you are buying from someone simply because the price is low, do a reality check. If this person is undercutting and selling super low, why? Is someone like this very likely to have a lot of extra money sitting around in case they need to do a refund? Are they likely to patiently hold onto snakes in case they need to offer a replacement for any reason? Small breeders may have less overhead than bigger/established breeders, but that doesn't mean their prices reflect a responsible approach to running a business.


I am a small/new/unestablished breeder. I have about 30-40 females that will go this year, and by next season probably 60'ish. After watching market prices and the way people are treating this hobby, I plan on keeping all of my prices up where the sane breeders have theirs. If the snakes don't sell, I will keep them and continue to feed them. For every X number of male _____ I sell, I plan on keeping at least 1 back. This is for the above reason, to have replacements available if needed. If I end up with them for a full year, I will rotate them into the breeding mix, and be able to sell them as proven breeders after that if I really have no need for them. I plan on having enough cash available to me to handle any additional shipping costs required to make mistakes right, as well as to handle refunds. Money from sales will go into an account, and a certain percentage will always stay in that account to cover any requested refunds. I am not putting myself in a position where I have to sell ANY snakes next year. I can keep or sell whatever I decide I want to, and my hand will not be forced to jump on the newest low market price in order to stay afloat.

I don't have a perfect picture/plan, but it is coming together. I think what I stated above is a good plan in order to avoid alot of the mistakes I have seen/experienced already as someone who has bought from smaller breeders. Heck, I even bought from a decent sized breeder who was somewhat established, and they came into money problems and couldn't refund me right away. S**T happens, but by going with someone who has a good system, and has proven it over and over again, you lower your chances for problems.

It will take me years to establish myself as a reputable breeder who always makes things right, but I am willing to put the time and effort and work my way up one sale at a time, and one satisifed customer at a time. I understand that I could have more sales if I dropped prices, but that isn't responsible, in my opinion.

I also understand that my earlier argument says "don't buy from people like me", who are small and haven't built up a name yet. If you do, it requires a lot of discretion and a lot of questions. Everyone has to start somewhere, but make sure if you are buying from a small breeder it is for reasons regarding the way they run things, rather than that they are selling at lower prices. Even small breeders can run things like the big guys as far as customer service, they just can't overextend themselves or they will run into trouble.

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Wow! :bow: :bow: :bow:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Wow! :bow: :bow: :bow:

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No kidding Raber :eek:

Nice B...nice :gj:

nicely put!

:rockon:

I agree there has been alot of this "Tuff luck" to the breeders for miss sexing. Lets flip this coin over and look at what would happen if the Breeder had the tuff luck state of mind. You pay for a Female 06 Het Pied (1300 - 1500).Now you get your new female home and low and behold its a male! How many of you would just walk away and be happy. NONE. Why? because now its you that has taken the $800.00 hit and not the faceless breeder. Now you call the breeder to make things right and you get the tough luck speach. Your told to send the male back at your charge and now wait for a male to come available. Not one thread or reply on this sight would read. "I would keep the snake and avoid all the drama". It would be more like "Anyone know a good lawyer."

Yes the breeder should do all they can to help the customer and make things right. But the Tuff luck breeder state of mind is sad. :( And I think that if you want to keep the female then pay the man for it if you want the male the breeder should ship the female back (NO CHARGE) and send you a proper age, proper weight, Proper sex male (NO SHIPING CHARGE). If the breeder is a stand up guy this should not be a problem.

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

In my opinion there are two main circumstances. 1) Everything goes right 2) Something goes wrong.

I can safely say it won't matter much who you got the snake from if #1 is true (unless you are re-selling babies based on name), but when #2 is true, who you got the snake from almost always matters.

If a small breeder is extremely educated, plans very well, and has all of his ducks in a row, and is established, then there is no reason to hesitate buying from them. Finding out that this is true is the tricky part.

A few questions I would ask a smaller breeder. (no particular order)
1) how did you verify the sex
2) do you guarantee the health (short term) and genetics/sex(long term) of this snake
3) Did you produce this snake! (pictures of parents, and background on where they came from)
4) replacement policy if #2 becomes an issue. Do you keep enough of each back to cover mistakes in sexing


If you are buying from someone simply because the price is low, do a reality check. If this person is undercutting and selling super low, why? Is someone like this very likely to have a lot of extra money sitting around in case they need to do a refund? Are they likely to patiently hold onto snakes in case they need to offer a replacement for any reason? Small breeders may have less overhead than bigger/established breeders, but that doesn't mean their prices reflect a responsible approach to running a business.


I am a small/new/unestablished breeder. I have about 30-40 females that will go this year, and by next season probably 60'ish. After watching market prices and the way people are treating this hobby, I plan on keeping all of my prices up where the sane breeders have theirs. If the snakes don't sell, I will keep them and continue to feed them. For every X number of male _____ I sell, I plan on keeping at least 1 back. This is for the above reason, to have replacements available if needed. If I end up with them for a full year, I will rotate them into the breeding mix, and be able to sell them as proven breeders after that if I really have no need for them. I plan on having enough cash available to me to handle any additional shipping costs required to make mistakes right, as well as to handle refunds. Money from sales will go into an account, and a certain percentage will always stay in that account to cover any requested refunds. I am not putting myself in a position where I have to sell ANY snakes next year. I can keep or sell whatever I decide I want to, and my hand will not be forced to jump on the newest low market price in order to stay afloat.

I don't have a perfect picture/plan, but it is coming together. I think what I stated above is a good plan in order to avoid alot of the mistakes I have seen/experienced already as someone who has bought from smaller breeders. Heck, I even bought from a decent sized breeder who was somewhat established, and they came into money problems and couldn't refund me right away. S**T happens, but by going with someone who has a good system, and has proven it over and over again, you lower your chances for problems.

It will take me years to establish myself as a reputable breeder who always makes things right, but I am willing to put the time and effort and work my way up one sale at a time, and one satisifed customer at a time. I understand that I could have more sales if I dropped prices, but that isn't responsible, in my opinion.

I also understand that my earlier argument says "don't buy from people like me", who are small and haven't built up a name yet. If you do, it requires a lot of discretion and a lot of questions. Everyone has to start somewhere, but make sure if you are buying from a small breeder it is for reasons regarding the way they run things, rather than that they are selling at lower prices. Even small breeders can run things like the big guys as far as customer service, they just can't overextend themselves or they will run into trouble.

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Bryan, when you have snakes available this season give me a call and we'll do some business. I'd like to support you any way that I can.

BRAVO!

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

In my opinion there are two main circumstances. 1) Everything goes right 2) Something goes wrong.

I can safely say it won't matter much who you got the snake from if #1 is true (unless you are re-selling babies based on name), but when #2 is true, who you got the snake from almost always matters.

If a small breeder is extremely educated, plans very well, and has all of his ducks in a row, and is established, then there is no reason to hesitate buying from them. Finding out that this is true is the tricky part.

A few questions I would ask a smaller breeder. (no particular order)
1) how did you verify the sex
2) do you guarantee the health (short term) and genetics/sex(long term) of this snake
3) Did you produce this snake! (pictures of parents, and background on where they came from)
4) replacement policy if #2 becomes an issue. Do you keep enough of each back to cover mistakes in sexing


If you are buying from someone simply because the price is low, do a reality check. If this person is undercutting and selling super low, why? Is someone like this very likely to have a lot of extra money sitting around in case they need to do a refund? Are they likely to patiently hold onto snakes in case they need to offer a replacement for any reason? Small breeders may have less overhead than bigger/established breeders, but that doesn't mean their prices reflect a responsible approach to running a business.


I am a small/new/unestablished breeder. I have about 30-40 females that will go this year, and by next season probably 60'ish. After watching market prices and the way people are treating this hobby, I plan on keeping all of my prices up where the sane breeders have theirs. If the snakes don't sell, I will keep them and continue to feed them. For every X number of male _____ I sell, I plan on keeping at least 1 back. This is for the above reason, to have replacements available if needed. If I end up with them for a full year, I will rotate them into the breeding mix, and be able to sell them as proven breeders after that if I really have no need for them. I plan on having enough cash available to me to handle any additional shipping costs required to make mistakes right, as well as to handle refunds. Money from sales will go into an account, and a certain percentage will always stay in that account to cover any requested refunds. I am not putting myself in a position where I have to sell ANY snakes next year. I can keep or sell whatever I decide I want to, and my hand will not be forced to jump on the newest low market price in order to stay afloat.

I don't have a perfect picture/plan, but it is coming together. I think what I stated above is a good plan in order to avoid alot of the mistakes I have seen/experienced already as someone who has bought from smaller breeders. Heck, I even bought from a decent sized breeder who was somewhat established, and they came into money problems and couldn't refund me right away. S**T happens, but by going with someone who has a good system, and has proven it over and over again, you lower your chances for problems.

It will take me years to establish myself as a reputable breeder who always makes things right, but I am willing to put the time and effort and work my way up one sale at a time, and one satisifed customer at a time. I understand that I could have more sales if I dropped prices, but that isn't responsible, in my opinion.

I also understand that my earlier argument says "don't buy from people like me", who are small and haven't built up a name yet. If you do, it requires a lot of discretion and a lot of questions. Everyone has to start somewhere, but make sure if you are buying from a small breeder it is for reasons regarding the way they run things, rather than that they are selling at lower prices. Even small breeders can run things like the big guys as far as customer service, they just can't overextend themselves or they will run into trouble.

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Great post Bryan I think everyone planning on making a small business out of this should do exactly that. Great business practice's will alway's be rewarded , anyone who make's a mistake like the one in this thread should be held to account.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

In my opinion there are two main circumstances. 1) Everything goes right 2) Something goes wrong. I can safely say it won't matter much who you got the snake from if #1 is true (unless you are re-selling babies based on name), but when #2 is true, who you got the snake from almost always matters.

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Well said, Bryan. I think we're on the same page, but I think you may have misunderstood my post. The circumstances I was referring to had more to do with specific issues in the Ball biz such as questionable morphs, double hets, and other circumstances that the big breeders can handle much more reliably. My point was that people shouldn't flock to the big breeders because they had that "big breeder" status, but rather they should do their homework on any breeder they decided to do business with and shouldn't discount the small breeder just because they don't deal with thousands of snakes.

You bring up a good point about large breeders being able to hold back snakes in case something goes wrong, but that should be only one factor in determining who you select to do business with. If I found a small breeder selling a killer morph I was looking for, say a reduced clown, it might not matter to me if the snake was sexed right or not. I might want to get the genetics and work around the gender issue.

BTW, the questions you stated shouldn't be exclusive to small breeders, but to all breeders that you do business with. As I mentioned in my previous message, many people perceive certain breeders as "Big" when in fact they are either small or untrustworthy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

This seller is no "breeder".

-adam

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Yet that is what they have called themselves. No regulation and all that.

Finally done with this garbage.

I am keeping the female not paying any extra or giving any offspring away so it worked out. I guess sending links to someone had an impact on how they will conduct themselves from now on.

I will say that justin case you see a dalbert ad in Ohio, be cautious since it might not be what you expected.

Glad to hear the nightmare is over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I agree that the breeder should make it right. I would tell the breeder. you sent me this snake as the one I paid for you want to send me a different one then you pay to have this one shipped back to you and send me the right age snake other wise consider this my snake and your stupid tax. THE BREEDER NEEDS TO BE THE ONE TO MAKE IT RIGHT! NOT THE CUSTOMER.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I agree there has been alot of this "Tuff luck" to the breeders for miss sexing. Lets flip this coin over and look at what would happen if the Breeder had the tuff luck state of mind. You pay for a Female 06 Het Pied (1300 - 1500).Now you get your new female home and low and behold its a male! How many of you would just walk away and be happy. NONE. Why? because now its you that has taken the $800.00 hit and not the faceless breeder. Now you call the breeder to make things right and you get the tough luck speach. Your told to send the male back at your charge and now wait for a male to come available. Not one thread or reply on this sight would read. "I would keep the snake and avoid all the drama". It would be more like "Anyone know a good lawyer."

Yes the breeder should do all they can to help the customer and make things right. But the Tuff luck breeder state of mind is sad. :( And I think that if you want to keep the female then pay the man for it if you want the male the breeder should ship the female back (NO CHARGE) and send you a proper age, proper weight, Proper sex male (NO SHIPING CHARGE). If the breeder is a stand up guy this should not be a problem.

Just my two cents.

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i'm confused... what exactly IS your opinion?

congrats on keeping the female

Whew...I just started reading this thread and am so happy to read that you are keeping her and sending no money. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard!! What an idiot that breeder is! And honestly, if you were really going to send him money - I was gonna ask if you might want to send some my way too, since you're just giving it away! LOL Kudos to you, his mistake, and I cannot believe he had the "balls" hehe to ask for more money!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HollyS

Whew...I just started reading this thread and am so happy to read that you are keeping her and sending no money. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard!! What an idiot that breeder is! And honestly, if you were really going to send him money - I was gonna ask if you might want to send some my way too, since you're just giving it away! LOL Kudos to you, his mistake, and I cannot believe he had the "balls" hehe to ask for more money!

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not only this, but maybe it will teach him a lesson and not screw other people over