Morph King Reptiles . . .

Well put everyone.......I am in no way sticking up for either side here......however. You should never spend that much money on anything without looking into it more. Did MKR lie? who knows........if they did......then lesson learned by him and everyone on this forum.....LOL.......However.......I dont see how this can be put on this open forum like this with these kinds of statements without the proof to back them. There was a forum sued for this very thing not to long ago. Just something to think about.

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Originally Posted by jcaustralia

care to share what it was?

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I'd rather not... it was about someone else's deal with them...

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

So anyone should be able to state that ANYTHING is FACT on this site? Last time I checked this site was all about distributing correct information not speculation, rumors, and unsupported 'facts'.....or did I miss something?

.....I should quote you the next time someone comes around stating improper care of an animal is ok and people tell them they are wrong....

It is very easy for most people to play devil's advocate all the time......but with a little more work, someone can contribute constructively in order to benefit their community ;)

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There is a big difference between proper care for an animal and a thread that is all here-say and speculation from the get go. If you want proof, go to the BOI (although I would say it doesn't exist there much anymore). Are you implying that I play devil's advocate all the time and don't constructively contribute? If so, you might want to do some research on that subject. :)

From what I gather, MKR has it on their website that here is no such thing as a visual blush. Only a blush albino.


Now, if they told him this snake was a visual blush ALSO het for albino, he got screwed.

IF they told him this was a het for blush albino, then the price can be whatever they want and Andre is out of luck.

It all come down to this.

Was this a blush het albino or het blush albino?

Just the way it's worded can mean 2 seperate things. Car salesman doublespeak if you ask me.

Ok, I know Andre, not TOO much, but I know this, and I'm sure he will back me up...

He bought a snake from MKR that is supposed to be a Yellow Blush HET albino. They told him Yellow Blush is a recessive trait. So what they did was sell him a snake that should make 100% het for Yellow Blush when bred to a normal. No Het Yellow Blush Albino, just yellow blush het NORMAL ALBINO

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Ok, I know Andre, not TOO much, but I know this, and I'm sure he will back me up...

He bought a snake from MKR that is supposed to be a Yellow Blush HET albino. They told him Yellow Blush is a recessive trait. So what they did was sell him a snake that should make 100% het for Yellow Blush when bred to a normal. No Het Yellow Blush Albino, just yellow blush het NORMAL ALBINO

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If that is the case, he got shafted.

So......the next question is this:

Did they sell him the snake before or after it was proven not a morph.......has it been completely proven not a morph?

I am asking seriously......Not picking fights here.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Ok, I know Andre, not TOO much, but I know this, and I'm sure he will back me up...

He bought a snake from MKR that is supposed to be a Yellow Blush HET albino. They told him Yellow Blush is a recessive trait. So what they did was sell him a snake that should make 100% het for Yellow Blush when bred to a normal. No Het Yellow Blush Albino, just yellow blush het NORMAL ALBINO

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What are you talking about? Yellow blush albinos are normal albinos, only with the yellow blush trait displayed at the same time.

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Originally Posted by MKR

Wes thought we had a new line of Axanthics the first time a Homozygous (HXIX) snake hatched, but after a few weeks, it went from a greenish grey to a brownish color. Imagine how this morph could affect Clowns who fade as they age or Pastels that brown out. They could be more yellow as adults than as hatchlings! We are very proud of both the Yellow Blush and the HXIX and feel that they are a “must have” in any serious connoisseur’s collection.

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Sounds like there are visual yellow blushes to me.

I remember when Andre was actually buying that snake and there was a rather long discussion about its genetics. Whether MKR misrepresented the animal or not, I can tell you that Andre sincerely believed he was getting a "double morph" animal.

A "new morph" called "yellow blush," which the animal was supposedly homozygous for.....AND also het for Albino. Supposedly, a double-homozygous "yellow blush albino" would produce a nearly solid yellow snake, as opposed to the typical yellow and white albino we usually see.

Did MKR intentionally lie and misrepresent the animal as a "proven morph" when it was not? Or did Andre simply get his facts mixed up when dealing with a slick salesman? :confuzd: Who knows? Maybe Andre can provide documentation that shows exactly what MKR claimed. And WHY Andre now believes the claims are false....I have no idea. So far as I know, he's still in school today and will not be able to respond to this post for a while.

And the other day...I heard (and this is a FACT) that Jamie likes to sleep in pink, frilly underwear. The person that told me this is afraid to come forward, but I promise you it's true...'cause I heard it with my own ears! :P


Seriously....baseless hearsay is destructive. Period. It does NOTHING to prove anyone's point, and if anything, makes them look like nothing more than foolish rumor-mongers.

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Originally Posted by JLC

And the other day...I heard (and this is a FACT) that Jamie likes to sleep in pink, frilly underwear. The person that told me this is afraid to come forward, but I promise you it's true...'cause I heard it with my own ears! :P


Seriously....baseless hearsay is destructive. Period. It does NOTHING to prove anyone's point, and if anything, makes them look like nothing more than foolish rumor-mongers.

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All true...

I love baseless hearsay!! :rockon:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...1&postcount=62
(removed at request of poster)

I think this might have been a miscommunication problem. I'd think $500 for a het male albino is reasonable if it's a new/different type of albino. Take a look at the Het Lav. Albino male prices. Also, I think if Andre was offered a Homo/Het animal for $500, he should have ran the other way. I can't think of ONE Homo/het Ball that is so cheap.

Seeing how he probably dealt with Joe, and Joe obviously knows as much about genetics as Tom Cruise knows about Psychology, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe was pulling a "used car salesman" on Andre and just blabbing until he made a sale. :2cent:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

.I know some will say this is just hearsay but it is the total truth.

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Joe, I appreciate you stepping in for Andre. However...it IS hearsay. I KNOW you believe it to be true, and I am not doubting your sincerity nor your credibility in this. However.... to say "someone told me so, and that makes it true" does NOT PROVE anything.

I am outta this thread now.

I know what happened too. I know MKR and tried to not get on any side here. So......I hope that Andre re-coops his losses and moves on with his hobby.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Joe, I appreciate you stepping in for Andre. However...it IS hearsay. I KNOW you believe it to be true, and I am not doubting your sincerity nor your credibility in this. However.... to say "someone told me so, and that makes it true" does NOT PROVE anything.

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Judy, i apologize for posting this.When i started reading this thread and seen where it was heading i decided to speak up.I remember when Andre was first looking at that "yellow blush" pile of crap.I talked to him numerous times the IM and pointed out that i had talked to several breeder freinds of mine about that snake.Everyone had the same answer "NO SUCH SNAKE" IN EXISTANCE.So i relayed this info to Andre.When he told me he was buying a pair(at the time) i voiced my concern and told him Congrats:( .Now on the info part,since i received this info i have passed it along to numerous people.I have forwarded this info to numerous members here also.Every person i have sent this info to agree the Joe & Wes have lied to everyone.The way things are going it will not be long until this info is brought out for everyone to see for themselves on fauna.I will infact call my freind and ask him to pickup the pace and post everything on Fauna.

can we put a stop to anything MKR related already?? Its tearing the community apart and making it a real drag to come here and see people bickering like grade schoolers. I challenge all off you to bite your tongues! ...er maybe just make fists for a few seconds and shake them at your computer since we are not techincally "talking". :P

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

can we put a stop to anything MKR related already?? Its tearing the community apart and making it a real drag to come here and see people bickering like grade schoolers. I challenge all off you to bite your tongues! ...er maybe just make fists for a few seconds and shake them at your computer since we are not techincally "talking". :P

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I will not post anything else that concerns those people,just with respect to my internet family here.Just incase this means YOU as in all the members of ball-python.net:D

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Everyone had the same answer "NO SUCH SNAKE" IN EXISTANCE.

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So they have seen and understood the genetics of every snake in the world both in captivity and the wild? Impressive.

Obviously I'm just joking, but the fact is there is no way your "breeder friends" could possibly know whether or not the said trait is not reproducable unless they were told so by someone from MKR or someone who has bought into the project and proven so. Just because there is no yellow blush trait as far as they know does not mean there is no one out there with it. That is the only problem I have with this thread; it is nothing but specualtion being spit out as fact (for the most part, atleast).

Maybe they did prove it out, maybe they didn't. The only way to know for sure is either someone from MKR telling us, or by someone proving/disproving it through breeding. Until then it is nothing more than hearsay.

Well Wes called me when I was at school and my mom left me a note and said that wes told her something about me sending the snake back and then getting a full refund. I do not think that is fair as he is ready to breed this year. I just want the $375 difference. Plus I can't ship yet.


-Andre

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Originally Posted by Regal Boids

I do not think that is fair as he is ready to breed this year. I just want the $375 difference. Plus I can't ship yet.


-Andre

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I would think that's plenty fair. You failed to fully research what you were buying, in addition to being warned prior to purchase that it may be a sketchy deal. Personally, I think you should suck it up and consider it a lesson learned...:)

So did you post here before talking to MKR and asking for a refund? That seems like jujmping the gun a bit.

I remember back when the discussion of this was going on, and it was really not very convincing. Also, what double morph in existance, let alone a triple (homo for and het for) sells for $500?

That would be like getting an albino het for pied for $500.. :rolleye2:


Anyway, seems like there were definitely some miscommunications, and I bet for the $500 you get back, you can turn around and buy a similar sized het albino for $200-300 ?

If not, maybe you should keep it, and it wasn't a bad deal after all?



Sounds like another mess tossed onto the pile, plus the new "information" about MKR buying mojaves from other sources in order to fill orders sounds funkay! How many mojaves did they actually sell at that low price? Ive been out of the loop

I have to say that working it out with them should have been the first step. Bringing it here should have been done only when all other options have been exhausted.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

So did you post here before talking to MKR and asking for a refund? That seems like jujmping the gun a bit.

I remember back when the discussion of this was going on, and it was really not very convincing. Also, what double morph in existance, let alone a triple (homo for and het for) sells for $500?

That would be like getting an albino het for pied for $500.. :rolleye2:

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You have to keep in mind exactly what morphs it is het for. A double het snow male is probably around $1k (that's just a guess; haven't noticed any for sale), but you can bet that a double het for lavender albino pied is going to cost a ton more than that.

We're talking about an animal that has a good amount of blushing, not some crazy new morph. I doubt that it would command much more of a price than a normal would on its own (hence it being really cheap as a cross aswell).

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Sounds like another mess tossed onto the pile, plus the new "information" about MKR buying mojaves from other sources in order to fill orders sounds funkay! How many mojaves did they actually sell at that low price? Ive been out of the loop

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I wouldnt be surprised at all if they were doing this. I know for a fact that they sell a lot of their animals before they even hatch them out. They probably took all of those orders for $800 mojaves, didn't hatch enough, and decided to buy a bunch more at wholesale so they wouldn't have to issue any refunds.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

I have to say that working it out with them should have been the first step. Bringing it here should have been done only when all other options have been exhausted.

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AMEN!!!!!
Could have not said it any better.

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Originally Posted by Regal Boids

Well earlier this year I made a deal with MKR. I was going to get a male homozygous yellow blush that was also het for albino. I paid him $500 over a course of a few months. He then shipped him out on 5-23-06. He arrived the next day fine and healthy. So 5 months roll on by and then I find out I have benn ripped off. I paid $500 for a het albino male that should only cost $125 :mad: . I thought I had a homozygous yellow blush het albino because when I saw him he looked just like what joe said they look like. Wes and Joe lied to me because they told me that Wes him self proved out the yellow blush when he did not because it is not a genetic morph. They sold him to me as a genetic morph. Here I was all along thinking that they where still producing them. If it was a genetic morph then why wouldn't it be in VPI's new book, since VPI and MKR are buddies. The reason is because its not a morph. I was originally going to get a female "double het" also but I did not have enough money. Wes told me he knew someone else that wanted her and so I guess he sold her to him. I wish I could find out who that is so they know. I will be calling Wes today after school to get joes number since joes number lised on their website is out-of-service. Joe has also been buying ball pythons from other breeders in order to fill his orders. That I think is very wrong. He tells his customers he has them when he really doesnt and then has to go and buy them from someone else in order to fill their order. I highly doubt I will get back the $375 difference. I will be calling him as soon as I can get ahold of him. I do not think i will get anything back because joe will most likely just sit their and say im lying and my sources of the information are full of it and so on. I am glad I did not get all of those other animals I was going to get from them. I will never ever ever do business with that SOB again. It burns me up inside knowing that my mom and I lost $375 to someone like that. What should I do in order to get some money back? Thank you

-Andre

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Id hate to say i told you so..but I told you so.

Im pretty sure MKR and VPI arnt buddies....VPi are ntohing like MKR.

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Originally Posted by RedDevil

Obviously I'm just joking, but the fact is there is no way your "breeder friends" could possibly know whether or not the said trait is not reproducable unless they were told so by someone from MKR or someone who has bought into the project and proven so. Just because there is no yellow blush trait as far as they know does not mean there is no one out there with it. That is the only problem I have with this thread; it is nothing but specualtion being spit out as fact (for the most part, atleast).

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Indeed, because this industry is chalk full of examples of a genetic trait managing to find its way into 1 breeders hands, and remain there for 6 years. All "new morphs" should be viewed as nothing more than a non-genetic mutation until proven otherwise. Not the other way around.

The whole claim behind this is that the first albino yellow blush (the first double recessive) was produced from a wild caught albino male. That would mean that this wild caught albino male had to be het for yellow blush. Meaning, both parents had to have the Albino gene, and one parent had to have the Yellow Blush gene.

Now, anyone here aware of a wild-caught Albino het Piebald? How about an Albino het Clown? I'm not. But by some miracle of odds, Joe of MKR, previously a car salesman, manages to locate the only known wild-caught ball python that was homozygous for one recessive trait, and heterozygous for a second recessive trait. And in some stroke of luck, managed to produce visible Double Recessives, in his first generation (all without having any Yellow Blush hets to breed the Albino het Yellow Blush too!).

Now, off the top of my head, I don't know the odds of getting struck by lightning twice, while simultaneously winning the Power Ball and getting into a fatal car accident are, but I'd say they are about as likely as the above.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Id hate to say i told you so..but I told you so.

Im pretty sure MKR and VPI arnt buddies....VPi are ntohing like MKR.

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vpi and mkr work verry close. they support each others bizz all the time.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

vpi and mkr work verry close. they support each others bizz all the time.

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id still rather buy from VPI than MKR anyday.

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Originally Posted by BALLISTIC BOAS

vpi and mkr work verry close. they support each others bizz all the time.

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According to MKR. I have never seen Dave or Tracy say they work with MKR.

They sold MKR a bunch or animals when they first got started but I have never heard of them working together on any projects.

you cant go wrong with vpi. they are one of the greats of this biz.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Indeed, because this industry is chalk full of examples of a genetic trait managing to find its way into 1 breeders hands, and remain there for 6 years.

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Just because it isn't a common occurance doesn't mean it can not occur.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

All "new morphs" should be viewed as nothing more than a non-genetic mutation until proven otherwise. Not the other way around.

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That I can agree with. Unfortunately for me, all I have to go off of is their site, and it has been proven according to them. Obviously niether one of us are in any position to know if they lied or not.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

The whole claim behind this is that the first albino yellow blush (the first double recessive) was produced from a wild caught albino male. That would mean that this wild caught albino male had to be het for yellow blush. Meaning, both parents had to have the Albino gene, and one parent had to have the Yellow Blush gene.

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I didn't know it came from a WC animal. It may be in their description, but I never did read the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Now, anyone here aware of a wild-caught Albino het Piebald? How about an Albino het Clown? I'm not.

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A visual double recessive is far more of a stretch than one that is visual for one trait and het for another.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

But by some miracle of odds, Joe of MKR, previously a car salesman, manages to locate the only known wild-caught ball python that was homozygous for one recessive trait, and heterozygous for a second recessive trait.

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The platinum is made with more than one gene, as is the ebony. Both of which have been caught in the wild. Not quite as unlikely to happen as an animal visual for one recessive trait and het for another, but the platinum really isn't that far off either.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

And in some stroke of luck, managed to produce visible Double Recessives, in his first generation (all without having any Yellow Blush hets to breed the Albino het Yellow Blush too!).

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John Piro hatched out a lavender albino from a het lav male to a w/c female, and Ralph Davis hatched out a clown from a caramel male to a clown female. As unlikely as it is, it still happens.

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Originally Posted by RedDevil

Just because it isn't a common occurance doesn't mean it can not occur.

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You're right it does happen, the difference is, MKR has been selling these for some time, and yet, no one has come forward with a homozygous Yellow Blush morph.

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That I can agree with. Unfortunately for me, all I have to go off of is their site, and it has been proven according to them. Obviously niether one of us are in any position to know if they lied or not.

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True, however the fact that no one else has proven them makes this odd. One profound difference between MKR and the other proven morphs, is there is no evidence, with the exception of a few pics of what could be the same snake.

There is simply NOT enough evidence to call this a proven mutation, and certainly not enough to be selling homozygous animals.

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A visual double recessive is far more of a stretch than one that is visual for one trait and het for another.

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Umm... what? Double Recessives COME from animals that are homozygous for one gene and het for another, or double het for the gene. You can't have a double recessive unless both parents already carry both genes.

:confused:

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The platinum is made with more than one gene, as is the ebony. Both of which have been caught in the wild. Not quite as unlikely to happen as an animal visual for one recessive trait and het for another, but the platinum really isn't that far off either.

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I'm assuming you mean the Lesser Platinum, and I can assure you, the Lesser is a Heterozygous Codominant mutation. One gene. And I'd love to see a wild caught ebony (yb x granite)...

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John Piro hatched out a lavender albino from a het lav male to a w/c female,

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Well, that's entirely different. The example I gave was an Albino het Yellow Blush breeding to an Albino, in the wild. Certainly not the same thing as a known het breeding to a w/c female that happened to be het as well.

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Ralph Davis hatched out a clown from a caramel male to a clown female. As unlikely as it is, it still happens.

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The question remains on whether either of those animals were wild caught. Even then, it's still different.

You're examples are breeders hitting crazy odds, but the probability increases substantially when we breed selectively. We aren't talking about a breeder picking two snakes that will make a good pair... we are talking about TWO WILD animals meeting in the WILD. Totally different dynamic... not to mention the considerablly greater survival rate of eggs in captivity versus eggs in the wild.

Your examples are in a closed system... in the wild (an open system) the variables are much greater. Of course, I was unable to find either of your examples, and certainly can't find where a wild caught ebony was found.

Andre If I were you I'd send them back the bp , get your money back and try to find a het albino at you current bp's size.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

You're right it does happen, the difference is, MKR has been selling these for some time, and yet, no one has come forward with a homozygous Yellow Blush morph.

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I wasn't aware of how long they had been selling them for. That is rather odd.

Nobody has come forward either way, though. Nobody has said they produced them, and nobody has bought into them and complained about not producing them either.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

There is simply NOT enough evidence to call this a proven mutation, and certainly not enough to be selling homozygous animals.

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What is not enough information? They have apparently (again basing this one what they have stated) reproduced the yellow blush trait a few times.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Umm... what? Double Recessives COME from animals that are homozygous for one gene and het for another, or double het for the gene. You can't have a double recessive unless both parents already carry both genes.

:confused:

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Umm... It could have come from a double het blush albino x het albino. That's a far cry from two double hets finding each other in the wild and hitting the 1/16 odds like in the poor examples you have given.

:confused:

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

I'm assuming you mean the Lesser Platinum, and I can assure you, the Lesser is a Heterozygous Codominant mutation. One gene.

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No, I mean the original platinum. The one that so far has only been produced by breeding lessers to normal looking siblings.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

And I'd love to see a wild caught ebony (yb x granite)

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Feel free to visit Graziani's website.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Well, that's entirely different. The example I gave was an Albino het Yellow Blush breeding to an Albino, in the wild. Certainly not the same thing as a known het breeding to a w/c female that happened to be het as well.

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Umm... Why in the world would both parent have to be albino? They could have simply both been het albino with one being a het blush, aswell.

And the entire point of bringing up John's luck with hatching out a lavender from a w/c female is the fact that the same thing could have happened with MKR. They just so happened to have gotten a female het that they thought was normal, and bred the albino het blush to it.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

You're examples are breeders hitting crazy odds

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Umm... that was the point; "crazy odds" happen.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Of course, I was unable to find either of your examples, and certainly can't find where a wild caught ebony was found.

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You mustn't have looked too hard then. John's story is somewhere in the KS forum archives, and has been brought up on other forums. The ebony is owned by the Grazianis.

Okay, I just got off the phone with Wes. He is going to be sending me some pictures. Once I get them I will post them on here. He also said that they seem to be compatible with the SK axanthics because when a HXIX is breed to a snake keeper axanthic you get more axanthics? I will post pics when I get them.

-Andre

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Originally Posted by RedDevil

You have to keep in mind exactly what morphs it is het for. A double het snow male is probably around $1k (that's just a guess; haven't noticed any for sale), but you can bet that a double het for lavender albino pied is going to cost a ton more than that.

We're talking about an animal that has a good amount of blushing, not some crazy new morph. I doubt that it would command much more of a price than a normal would on its own (hence it being really cheap as a cross aswell).

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So a double het snow male is $1k? Ok giving you that, but this was supposed to be a homo het, one more set of genes mixed in = much more expensive.

An enhancer morph tends to be worth a bit anyway, even if it is just more blushing, ie yb?

Anyway $500 for a homozygous + het anything would seem very fishy. (my only point :)

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

So a double het snow male is $1k? Ok giving you that, but this was supposed to be a homo het, one more set of genes mixed in = much more expensive.

An enhancer morph tends to be worth a bit anyway, even if it is just more blushing, ie yb?

Anyway $500 for a homozygous + het anything would seem very fishy.

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YBs actually make something though (super stripe, ebony, ivory, etc.). A recessive animal that does nothing but add blushing to a snake is not going to command a price much higher (if higher at all) than a normal would. If I ever stumbled across recessive banded/reduced patterned/blushing animals, I would simply sell them off as normals.

EDIT:

And I would completely agree with your point if it were not for the fact that the yellow blush on its own looks like nothing more than a nice normal.

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Originally Posted by RedDevil

I wasn't aware of how long they had been selling them for. That is rather odd.

Nobody has come forward either way, though. Nobody has said they produced them, and nobody has bought into them and complained about not producing them either.

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That's the odd part... nothing. If there were comments either way I'd be less willing to make my claims, but the fact that "nothing" has been said is why I find this to be shaddy at the very least.

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What is not enough information? They have apparently (again basing this one what they have stated) reproduced the yellow blush trait a few times.

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I want to see a homozygous Yellow Blush. I want to see the "actual" genetics (they don't even say if it's recessive, co dom, dom... that's weird). The ONLY pics they have are of Albino Yellow Blush's... that is just absurd.

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Umm... It could have come from a double het blush albino x het albino. That's a far cry from two double hets finding each other in the wild and hitting the 1/16 odds like in the poor examples you have given.

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Genetically and geographically speaking they are both equally absurd. A double het and a het not only mating in the wild, but successfully producing an albino het "yellow blush" egg, which survives the "wild" long enough to be brought to the US and bred to a normal-appearing female, which also happens to be het for a morph no one had ever seen, and happens to hit those 1/16 odds again producing a homozygous double recessive animal...

You are reading this as you type it right? :P

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No, I mean the original platinum. The one that so far has only been produced by breeding lessers to normal looking siblings.

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Ah... platty daddy. I was under the assumption that the genetics behind the homo platinum are completely unknown, so it's a little early to assume it's two genes at all.

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Feel free to visit Graziani's website.

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That's very cool, was completely unaware of that. However, we can't ignore the statistical differences between producing a double homo from a Codom X Dom versus a Double Recessive... HUGE difference.

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Umm... Why in the world would both parent have to be albino? They could have simply both been het albino with one being a het blush, aswell.

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You're right, the odds are slightly better. Using my previous point, maybe that's equally as likely as only getting hit by lightning once while winning the lottery. Either way... it's absurd to believe those odds will not only be hit, but it will survive AND be located by exporters.

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And the entire point of bringing up John's luck with hatching out a lavender from a w/c female is the fact that the same thing could have happened with MKR. They just so happened to have gotten a female het that they thought was normal, and bred the albino het blush to it.

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Yes, and let's just ignore the fact that John's example was a het x het, not a double het x het which is signifigantly different, statistically. And let's just ignore the fact that John putting them together was signifigantly different than the two locating themselves in the wild.

No offense but your examples are not anywhere near the same statistical variations that this would require, for an appropriate analogy: I saw it is falls on the side of completely impractical to win the lottery and get struck by lightning twice. You come back and give examples of people getting struck by lightning twice to prove I'm wrong. That does not logically follow.

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Umm... that was the point; "crazy odds" happen.

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See above...

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You mustn't have looked too hard then. John's story is somewhere in the KS forum archives, and has been brought up on other forums. The ebony is owned by the Grazianis.

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See above...

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Originally Posted by Regal Boids

Okay, I just got off the phone with Wes. He is going to be sending me some pictures. Once I get them I will post them on here. He also said that they seem to be compatible with the SK axanthics because when a HXIX is breed to a snake keeper axanthic you get more axanthics? I will post pics when I get them.

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Look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

I want to see a homozygous Yellow Blush. I want to see the "actual" genetics (they don't even say if it's recessive, co dom, dom... that's weird). The ONLY pics they have are of Albino Yellow Blush's... that is just absurd.

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They don't directly say that it is recessive, but they do imply it by referring to het blush.

And if you want to see just the blush, look at Andre's pictures. It looks exactly like you would think based off of the albino blush; I light normal with blushing.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Genetically and geographically speaking they are both equally absurd. A double het and a het not only mating in the wild, but successfully producing an albino het "yellow blush" egg, which survives the "wild" long enough to be brought to the US

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Who's to say it wasn't farmed? Wouldn't have to last in the wild at all if that were the case. And a double het x het making an albino het blush really isn't that absurd to begin with seeing as its a 50/50 shot that any albino produced from the pairing would also carry the blush gene.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

You are reading this as you type it right? :P

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Somewhat. I do glance over it first to see if I want to bother replying. It's also way less confusing this way.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Ah... platty daddy. I was under the assumption that the genetics behind the homo platinum are completely unknown, so it's a little early to assume it's two genes at all.

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Not completely unknown. It may not be two genes, but the way it is produced is somewhat comparable.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

That's very cool, was completely unaware of that. However, we can't ignore the statistical differences between producing a double homo from a Codom X Dom versus a Double Recessive... HUGE difference.

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That it is. I completely forgot the point of me bringing that up. There was a point, though... I think. :)

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

You're right, the odds are slightly better. Using my previous point, maybe that's equally as likely as only getting hit by lightning once while winning the lottery. Either way... it's absurd to believe those odds will not only be hit, but it will survive AND be located by exporters.

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You know what else is absurd? Your constant references to lightning and lottery. Those really do make your points more valid, don't they? ;)

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Yes, and let's just ignore the fact that John's example was a het x het, not a double het x het which is signifigantly different, statistically. And let's just ignore the fact that John putting them together was signifigantly different than the two locating themselves in the wild.

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How is it significantly different? Double het blush albino x het albino. The odds hit on the albino (which is something that really isn't amazing) and he lucked out with the 50% het part of it.

And let's completely ignore the fact that the het lavender female could have been bred to any other morph John owned. What are the odds that out of all the wc snakes that come in, one is het for lavender albino, and not only that, but it goes to a breeder that owns lavender stock. Then there is the fact that it could have been bred to any other morph out there, but it just so happened to have went with another het lavender and hit on the odds first go.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

No offense but your examples are not anywhere near the same statistical variations that this would require, for an appropriate analogy

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And comparing a visual morph het for something to a double homozygous morph is statistically comparable? Hardly.

I have been making these since 1998 at one time I thought they were just axanthic looking babies that browned out, then I bred one to a Snake Keeper Axanthic het and got a few axanthics that browned out either this is a common gene or they are compatible " someone else can figure that out"
Then I hatched what looked like a Snow Ball or a very faded Albino.
After awhile it looked like a dull albino but then a strange thing happened.
Lemon yellow popped up all over the snake and when bred to the het albino females I had produced "who had appeared axanthic as babies " half the offspring were either axanthic looking or faded albino as babies.
This happens year after year. If it's not genetic then I guess it's just magic.:sunny:
I also fed and raised Andre's het Albino yellow blush female for a year and gave him his deposit back as well when he backed out, Andre's only 14 years old I guess we should have been dealing with his mother. I'd send him another het yellow blush to raise up and breed for free just to let him prove it for himself but after this I think I'm done being a mentor to this one.

Wes

This whole thread confuses the **** out of me

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Originally Posted by Wes Harris

I have been making these since 1998 at one time I thought they were just axanthic looking babies that browned out, then I bred one to a Snake Keeper Axanthic het and got a few axanthics that browned out either this is a common gene or they are compatible " someone else can figure that out"
Then I hatched what looked like a Snow Ball or a very faded Albino.
After awhile it looked like a dull albino but then a strange thing happened.
Lemon yellow popped up all over the snake and when bred to the het albino females I had produced "who had appeared axanthic as babies " half the offspring were either axanthic looking or faded albino as babies.
This happens year after year. If it's not genetic then I guess it's just magic.

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Care to give us some references on anyone in the world that has managed to produce these other than you?

Sorry if I take this all with a grain of salt. The snake pictured earlier looks like a pretty normal... and you don't seem to have anything besides some high yellow looking normals and a few pictures of what you claim to be a double recessive Albino Yellow Blush.

Seriously this could be easily resolved if you'd just give us "something" to go on besides your claims. Photos... references... something besides "no really, I've been doing this for 8 years." Sounds to me like you have a genetic line of low-contrast albinos and you're selling them as something they aren't.

Unless you can show that this trait exists outside of your Albino line, then it shouldn't be sold as "genetic", because it looks like genetic low contrast albino line at this point.

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Care to give us some references on anyone in the world that has managed to produce these other than you?

Sorry if I take this all with a grain of salt. The snake pictured earlier looks like a pretty normal... and you don't seem to have anything besides some high yellow looking normals and a few pictures of what you claim to be a double recessive Albino Yellow Blush.

Seriously this could be easily resolved if you'd just give us "something" to go on besides your claims. Photos... references... something besides "no really, I've been doing this for 8 years." Sounds to me like you have a genetic line of low-contrast albinos and you're selling them as something they aren't.

Unless you can show that this trait exists outside of your Albino line, then it shouldn't be sold as "genetic", because it looks like genetic low contrast albino line at this point.

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He's not here to answer your questions, he's just here to save face a little, and now we'll have better luck spotting a UFO than seeing another answer. Same thing happened on the last heated thread, MKR showed up made a statement and then never answered the well put questions afterwards. I'm starting to think everything that comes from these two guys is nothing but a sales pitch in one way or another.

:8:
:carrot:
:rolleye2:
:D

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Originally Posted by Wes Harris

I have been making these since 1998 at one time I thought they were just axanthic looking babies that browned out, then I bred one to a Snake Keeper Axanthic het and got a few axanthics that browned out either this is a common gene or they are compatible " someone else can figure that out"
Then I hatched what looked like a Snow Ball or a very faded Albino.
After awhile it looked like a dull albino but then a strange thing happened.
Lemon yellow popped up all over the snake and when bred to the het albino females I had produced "who had appeared axanthic as babies " half the offspring were either axanthic looking or faded albino as babies.
This happens year after year. If it's not genetic then I guess it's just magic.:sunny:
I also fed and raised Andre's het Albino yellow blush female for a year and gave him his deposit back as well when he backed out, Andre's only 14 years old I guess we should have been dealing with his mother. I'd send him another het yellow blush to raise up and breed for free just to let him prove it for himself but after this I think I'm done being a mentor to this one.

Wes

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:8: https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ThisThread.gif

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Originally Posted by Wes Harris

I have been making these since 1998 at one time I thought they were just axanthic looking babies that browned out, then I bred one to a Snake Keeper Axanthic het and got a few axanthics that browned out either this is a common gene or they are compatible " someone else can figure that out"
Then I hatched what looked like a Snow Ball or a very faded Albino.
After awhile it looked like a dull albino but then a strange thing happened.
Lemon yellow popped up all over the snake and when bred to the het albino females I had produced "who had appeared axanthic as babies " half the offspring were either axanthic looking or faded albino as babies.
This happens year after year. If it's not genetic then I guess it's just magic.:sunny:
I also fed and raised Andre's het Albino yellow blush female for a year and gave him his deposit back as well when he backed out, Andre's only 14 years old I guess we should have been dealing with his mother. I'd send him another het yellow blush to raise up and breed for free just to let him prove it for himself but after this I think I'm done being a mentor to this one.

Wes

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Mkkkkk. First of. You basicly just ripped him off and lied to him. Or gave him a het snow. That faded albino could be a snow. Go figure, your little morph dealy didnt work.

Second. Just because hes 14 and still young doesnt mean he isnt capable of making his own decitions(even though they may have started out in the wrong way.By buying from you) or spending his own money.

I cant belive you said that..this thread will be bookmarked!:carrot:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Mkkkkk. First of. You basicly just ripped him off and lied to him. Or gave him a het snow. That faded albino could be a snow. Go figure, your little morph dealy didnt work.

Second. Just because hes 14 and still young doesnt mean he isnt capable of making his own decitions(even though they may have started out in the wrong way.By buying from you) or spending his own money.

I cant belive you said that..this thread will be bookmarked!:carrot:

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I agree completely. You LIED to andre, telling him this was a recessive trait. Which we all know is not true.He simply paid ALOT of money for an oddball het albino. And also the last part put me off. I was going to buy from you guys before my decision to be against MKR- but knowing that you disrespect people because of their age is pitiful.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

but knowing that you disrespect people because of their age is pitiful.

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Exactly what I thought when I read his "response." Grow up, Wes. Teenagers are capable of rational thought, too.

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Originally Posted by JasonGranger

Exactly what I thought when I read his "response." Grow up, Wes. Teenagers are capable of rational thought, too.

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yes teenagers ROCK!