Feeder Euthanasia the Easy Way, and Humane too...

What great info! (in case y'all didn't already know that. :P :D)
I do have a question about Co2 concentration in the feeders' lungs/blood etc.
How long (if at all) after euthanizing the feeders should one wait before feeding?
Does the Co2 level in the feeders effect the animals (predator) at all?

(off topic a bit here)
I feed *all* my carnivores a species appropriate raw diet, that includes my cat and my dog when I had her. Raising our own feeders is something that my husband and I *do* plan on doing when we can. Seeing as how I do have snakes (and large inverts who get the occasional pinky mouse treat) who need to be fed, along with the mammals, I wouldn't want to adversely effect them from the Co2.

Sorry if it's a dumb question but...how else am I going to learn, yeah? :D

CO2 is something that is present naturally, and disperses to normal concentrations in the air and surrounding environment as soon as the chamber is open and the prey items are removed. Its not like the gas stays in them at deadly concentrations...its a gas...it disperses quickly...

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Originally Posted by Shadowspider

How long (if at all) after euthanizing the feeders should one wait before feeding?
Does the Co2 level in the feeders effect the animals (predator) at all?

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I don't think you should have to wait at all really. I could be wrong but I don't think waiting would be necessary.

As far as I know, the consumption of CO2 isn't harmful. In fact, all carbonated drinks like sodas and such have CO2 dissolved into them. Im sure in large large doses it isn't good just like everything else, but as much that could be transferred from the rat to the snake should be next to none.

Once again though, not positive on it.

If you want to speed it up, put a little water in the bottom of the dry ice container, and set it in the cooler before you put the rats in. Adding the rats afterward means there is already a thick layer of CO2 in there, and they will pass out much faster (bit more humane).

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If you want to speed it up, put a little water in the bottom of the dry ice container, and set it in the cooler before you put the rats in. Adding the rats afterward means there is already a thick layer of CO2 in there, and they will pass out much faster (bit more humane).

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Actually this is not more humane...what you are suggesting is actually very painful. High levels of CO2 cause lung tissue to bleed and the aeroli (sp?) to burst. you want the CO2 to build up slowly so the animals go to sleep first (anestitize (sp?), as the CO2 level builds it will then kill them.

(do you have a reference for that? I was unable to find one).

I'm not sure that slow suffocation is more humane than rapid suffocation. I've personally always been very skeptical that CO2 is more humane than a quick smack over the head, but CO2 is what's 'approved', and can be used to dispatch a large number of animals quickly.

A reference? Go check out the AVMA's website and go to the page on humane euthanasia. There is a paragraph about building the CO2 levels....

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

A reference? Go check out the AVMA's website and go to the page on humane euthanasia. There is a paragraph about building the CO2 levels....

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:teamwork:

Thanks saved me the time.

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

:teamwork:

Thanks saved me the time.

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Yeah, although this was already discussed earlier in the thread...I wish that people would read more than the last 3 posts sometimes before commenting....

This was our home made setup when we were breeding our own feeders.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...ollett/gc3.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...ollett/gc2.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r...ollett/gc1.jpg

It was more expensive to make then using the dry ice method but we always had gas on hand in a tank.

Very interesting information!

I had a slight problem w/one of the mice I fed my snake last week (scratched Severus's right eye, but not badly), and I'm considering some humane euthanasia for future mice. Keep in mind that I never let a mouse loose in his tank; I always use my trusty foot-long tweezers to hold the mouse by the tail until it is snatched by His Lordship. ;)

My brother used to have a bp back in the day, and he was told by the vet where he'd purchased his snake to "stun" the mouse before feeding it to the snake (ie, "whacking" it against the tank). Needless to say, this does not really appeal to me. What kind of methods would work best for mice?

Please excuse me if this topic has already been covered...

Anyone know how fast this would work on rabbits? Generally 3lb+...

If you're going to feed mice instead of harmless baby rats I'd recommend a heavy stun, and only if the snake needs to hear the heart beating to eat it.....
On occasions where I need to feed stunned mice, I put them on a stool, hold their tail to stop them from wandering too much, and 'thump' them right behind the head with my finger. You can prolly use a spoon or something like that, I've never tried it that way, though.
It may take a few tries until you get good at it. Once they are stunned, I check how stunned they are by quickly blowing a puff of air into their eyes. If that snaps them out of it, stun them again.
Beware, they usually void their bladders when stunned.....
I much prefer feeding frozen/thawed.

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Originally Posted by RKO

Anyone know how fast this would work on rabbits? Generally 3lb+...

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The AVMA only recommends this method for rodents and rabbits under 7 lbs. in weight, if I remember right. You might want to go check into that....

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Originally Posted by caz223

If you're going to feed mice instead of harmless baby rats I'd recommend a heavy stun, and only if the snake needs to hear the heart beating to eat it.....
On occasions where I need to feed stunned mice, I put them on a stool, hold their tail to stop them from wandering too much, and 'thump' them right behind the head with my finger. You can prolly use a spoon or something like that, I've never tried it that way, though.
It may take a few tries until you get good at it. Once they are stunned, I check how stunned they are by quickly blowing a puff of air into their eyes. If that snaps them out of it, stun them again.
Beware, they usually void their bladders when stunned.....
I much prefer feeding frozen/thawed.

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How does this post have anything to do with humane treatment of prey items?

I agree Brad.

Caz... please be aware also when you do stun the mouse that in return is going to be one mad mouse. I'd rather feed a completly live mouse to make snake then a stunned one since putting a mad and hurt stunned mouse in my snakes cage is just calling for an accident. It can attack the snake or yourself if that mouse desides to take it out on something.

Tried this with two mice that I wanted to put down but didn't want to do it inhumanely. Worked great! Thanks for the write up.

Is dry ice readily available at any grocery store? What section would it be in? Never seen dry ice in all my grocery shopping adventures.:confused:

I went to Kroger to get my dry ice and thats the only grocery store I've seen it offered at. I was actually carded for it too. They make sure you are at least 18 years old. I still have some left over but its slowly sublimating away from sitting outside. I'm hoping it will last till I can get my fiance home from work so we can play with it (putting it in water so it fogs)

I guess ill have to call around. Never heard of Kroger lol.

Yea, its one of the grocery stores up here. I realized after I posted that you lived further south and would probably have different stores. Definatly check with your local stores. Its not terribly expensive but the block I bought (prolly around 5lbs) cost me almost $9.

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Originally Posted by lillyorchid

I agree Brad.

Caz... please be aware also when you do stun the mouse that in return is going to be one mad mouse. I'd rather feed a completly live mouse to make snake then a stunned one since putting a mad and hurt stunned mouse in my snakes cage is just calling for an accident. It can attack the snake or yourself if that mouse desides to take it out on something.

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I needed to do this for a month or 2, as one of my snakes wouldn't eat frozen when I got him.
If you stun them right, the snake will kill the snake in less then 10 seconds, and a heavy stun is usually lights out for a few minutes, but they still breathe, still twitch, and still have a heartbeat, so the snake will accept them.

As long as you feed live, there will always be a potential for bites, that's why I try to feed f/t or harmless baby rats, but the snakes always seem to do their thing.
I make sure to watch then until I see the tail disappear, as sometimes even when a snake constricts them they can wake up a minute or so later when the snake lets go.

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Originally Posted by caz223

I needed to do this for a month or 2, as one of my snakes wouldn't eat frozen when I got him.
If you stun them right, the snake will kill the snake in less then 10 seconds, and a heavy stun is usually lights out for a few minutes, but they still breathe, still twitch, and still have a heartbeat, so the snake will accept them.

As long as you feed live, there will always be a potential for bites, that's why I try to feed f/t or harmless baby rats, but the snakes always seem to do their thing.
I make sure to watch then until I see the tail disappear, as sometimes even when a snake constricts them they can wake up a minute or so later when the snake lets go.

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Once again, this post is off of the topic from this thread. There are plenty of other threads that discuss the issues that you are bringing up.

If you wish to further debate the notion of using blunt force trauma (aka "whacking") as a humane method of euthanasia, contact the American Veterinary Medical Association and explain to them that you disagree with their findings.

Feel free to add anything about HUMANE euthanization using CO2 gas. Thanks.

Okay I just tried this method on 4 mice and I have a question. The cooler I used is fairly large. I put some dry ice in a tupperware with a bunch of holes drilled in the lid. I opened the lid of the cooler after about 10 minutes and several of the mice appeared to be dead, but I noticed one of them lying there still breathing a bit. Does this mean that I didn't use enough dry ice, or was it too much? I think I had about 1 lb in there. No water. Thanks!

Okay I just tried this again. I left the cooler closed for 15 minutes before I checked it. One of the mice had a tiny bit of blood, and one still showed signs of respiration. So it seems that something is not working right here. I'm thinking the cooler may be too big and/or maybe not airtight enough, or I'm using too much dry ice.

If one mouse is getting too much CO2 too fast and another one 6" away is still showing signs of respiration after 15 minutes, there is definitely a problem. I don't think I should try again until I figure it out. Honestly I never intended to breed this many mice, if any. I certainly don't really want to be torturing them.

how long it takes for a newborn rat to get that size?

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Originally Posted by lytlesnake

Okay I just tried this again. I left the cooler closed for 15 minutes before I checked it. One of the mice had a tiny bit of blood, and one still showed signs of respiration. So it seems that something is not working right here. I'm thinking the cooler may be too big and/or maybe not airtight enough, or I'm using too much dry ice.

If one mouse is getting too much CO2 too fast and another one 6" away is still showing signs of respiration after 15 minutes, there is definitely a problem. I don't think I should try again until I figure it out. Honestly I never intended to breed this many mice, if any. I certainly don't really want to be torturing them.

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I'm not sure what the problem is... do you use a styrofoam cooler? One of the cheap ones or an actual cooler like an igloo cooler?




Drugaria,
What size are you asking about? Do you want to know when they are old enough to put down effectively with CO2?

Well, I was asking how long it takes for a new liter to reach size medium? I am seriously considering into establishing a short food chain. My Boa and other snakes are growing extremely fast and I'm getting tired of buying Petco's expensive frozen rats.

Thats the way i do mine. The only draw back is the store i get my try ice now makes me buy 5lbs of it at a time:weirdface

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

If you wish to further debate the notion of using blunt force trauma (aka "whacking") as a humane method of euthanasia, contact the American Veterinary Medical Association and explain to them that you disagree with their findings.

Feel free to add anything about HUMANE euthanization using CO2 gas. Thanks.

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I agree that blunt force trauma is not a humane method of euthanasia.

More importantly, CO2 generated from dry ice is also unacceptable according to the 2007 American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia because the inflow of CO2 can not be regulated precisely.

Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the ONLY recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely.

My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.:confused:
I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed. :mad:
Just feed live. Ball pythons constrict....duh. The rats can't breathe, they pass out from no oxygen to the brain or thier heart stops. Its all over pretty fast. The way nature intended them to die.

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Originally Posted by Dave763

My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.:confused:
I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed. :mad:

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The use of dry ice in killing mice is inhumane according to the 2007 American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia, plain and simple.

I know that I am new here and not one of the regulars, however, this sticky should be removed if we care about the humane treatment of animals.

Compressed CO2 gas in containers is the only humane way to euthanize mice.

A little copy/paste action.;)


Time to loss of consciousness is decreased by use of higher concentrations of CO2 with an 80 to 100% concentration providing anesthesia in 12 to 33 seconds in rats and 70% CO2 in O2 inducing anesthesia in 40 to 50 seconds.61,62 Time to loss of consciousness will be longer if the concentration is increased slowly rather than immersing the animal in the full concentration immediately

Advantages—(1) The rapid depressant, analgesic, and anesthetic effects of CO2 are well established. (2) Carbon dioxide is readily available and can be purchased
in compressed gas cylinders. (3) Carbon dioxide is inexpensive, nonflammable, nonexplosive, and poses minimal hazard to personnel when used with properly designed equipment. (4) Carbon dioxide does not result in accumulation of tissue residues in food-producing animals. (5) Carbon dioxide euthanasia does not distort murine cholinergic markers82 or corticosterone concentrations.83
Disadvantages—(1) Because CO2 is heavier than air, incomplete filling of a chamber may permit animals to climb or raise their heads above the higher concentrations and avoid exposure. (2) Some species, such as fish and burrowing and diving mammals, may have extraordinary tolerance for CO2. (3) Reptiles and amphibians may breathe too slowly for the use of CO2. (4) Euthanasia by exposure
to CO2 may take longer than euthanasia by other means.61 (5) Induction of loss of consciousness at lower concentrations (< 80%) may produce pulmonary
and upper respiratory tract lesions.67,84 (6) High concentrations of CO2 may be distressful to some animals.
Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended
source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable. Species should be separated and chambers should not be overcrowded. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute.85 Loss of consciousness
may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by pre-filling the chamber for species in which this has not been shown to cause distress. Gas flow should bemaintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death.86 It is important to verify that an animal is dead before removing it from the chamber. If an animal is not dead, CO2 narcosis must be followed with another method of euthanasia. Adding O2 to the CO2 may or may not preclude signs of distress.67,87 Additional O2 will, however, prolong time to death and may complicate
determination of consciousness. There appears to be no advantage to combining O2 with carbon dioxide for euthanasia.87

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Originally Posted by Dave763

My earlier post has been deleted. Strange how that seems to happen.:confused:
I use compressed co2. I outlined my method..it has been removed. :mad:
Just feed live. Ball pythons constrict....duh. The rats can't breathe, they pass out from no oxygen to the brain or thier heart stops. Its all over pretty fast. The way nature intended them to die.

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Would this be your earlier un-deleted post? As there's no reason, nor history of any staff member deleting any of your posts.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...53&postcount=7

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Originally Posted by Dave763

Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. Loss of consciousness may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by pre-filling the chamber for species in which this has not been shown to cause distress. Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death. It is important to verify that an animal is dead before removing it from the chamber.

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Excellent post Dave. This just goes to prove why compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is humane - it can be precisely regulated.

And it shows why using dry ice is extremely inhumane to the mice - there is no way whatsoever that the flow rate of the CO2 can be precisely regulated and the mice can suffer a horrible and agonizing death.

"Extremely inhumane" "horrible and agonizing"....LOL. What are you trying to prove?

I've used this method many times over and not once did I observe any distress at any time during the process.

Sure, you can't regulate it, but the rate of sublimation of dry ice is so slow in normal room temperature that the concentration of CO2 doesn't build up very fast, and thats the whole idea.

Both methods can be made to work. Using dry ice is simply the "easier" way. Less set-up, equipment, etc.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

"Extremely inhumane" "horrible and agonizing"....LOL. What are you trying to prove?

I've used this method many times over and not once did I observe any distress at any time during the process.

Sure, you can't regulate it, but the rate of sublimation of dry ice is so slow in normal room temperature that the concentration of CO2 doesn't build up very fast, and thats the whole idea.

Both methods can be made to work. Using dry ice is simply the "easier" way. Less set-up, equipment, etc.

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All I care about are the animals and that they are treated humanely, whether as pets or when being euthanized.

If the American Veterinary Medical Association's (AVMA) Guidelines on Euthanasia clearly states that using dry ice to euthanize mice is unacceptable, then it is inhumane to do so. How can you disagree with that? Are you a veterinarian or a member of the AVMA?

The only acceptable method by the AVMA of administrating CO2 is by compressed CO2 gas in cylinders, and that is the way I do it and I can sleep well knowing that I treated the animals in a humane way.

Just because using dry ice is easier and is less set-up for you, doesn't make it right. It just tells me that you are not willing to take the extra steps and spend the extra money to euthanize the mice humanely.

You asked me what am I trying to prove? I am pointing out what the AVMA's Guidelines on Euthanasia are stating regarding the use of CO2 in euthanizing mice. I respectfully suggest that you no longer use dry ice, and that you use compressed CO2 gas in cylinders or buy frozen mice.

Here is a link to an excellent DIY CO2 chamber: http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Would this be your earlier un-deleted post? As there's no reason, nor history of any staff member deleting any of your posts.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...53&postcount=7

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No that's not it...
I figure it was me clicking preview post instead of submit.:oops: Sorry ....

where can one get dry ice?

Our local walmart sells it for like $1.25 per pound.

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

All I care about are the animals and that they are treated humanely, whether as pets or when being euthanized.

If the American Veterinary Medical Association's (AVMA) Guidelines on Euthanasia clearly states that using dry ice to euthanize mice is unacceptable, then it is inhumane to do so. How can you disagree with that? Are you a veterinarian or a member of the AVMA?

The only acceptable method by the AVMA of administrating CO2 is by compressed CO2 gas in cylinders, and that is the way I do it and I can sleep well knowing that I treated the animals in a humane way.

Just because using dry ice is easier and is less set-up for you, doesn't make it right. It just tells me that you are not willing to take the extra steps and spend the extra money to euthanize the mice humanely.

You asked me what am I trying to prove? I am pointing out what the AVMA's Guidelines on Euthanasia are stating regarding the use of CO2 in euthanizing mice. I respectfully suggest that you no longer use dry ice, and that you use compressed CO2 gas in cylinders or buy frozen mice.

Here is a link to an excellent DIY CO2 chamber: http://www.thereddragonsden.com/co2.htm

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yet 90% of them couldnt care for a reptile if they had to. thats total b.s.

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Originally Posted by nixer

yet 90% of them couldnt care for a reptile if they had to. thats total b.s.

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What is your point nixer?

Are you saying that the mice shouldn't be euthanized in a humane way because, in your opinion, veterinarians do not know how to care for a reptile?

I guess the mice should suffer an inhumane death because you think veterinarians can't care for reptiles. What are you talking about?

I don't follow your logic at all!!!

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

What is your point nixer?

Are you saying that the mice shouldn't be euthanized in a humane way because, in your opinion, veterinarians do not know how to care for a reptile?

I guess the mice should suffer an inhumane death because you think veterinarians can't care for reptiles. What are you talking about?

I don't follow your logic at all!!!

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Tyler, I suggest you read thoroughly the AVMA section on the use of CO2. The text is not concrete, and is open to interpretation, which we have all done, either for or against dry ice.

I personally believe CO2 by the dry ice method is also humane. No where in their text to they explicitly say that it is inhumane, nor do they hint at it. They simply say that for reasons of control, it is not acceptable.

You may have taken this to mean it is inhumane, but if you were to read the complete text of the article, you would know that where they find a method inhumane, they explicitly say so and why. I do not feel they leave those methods open to speculation.

There is only that small mention of dry ice, no where else do they mention it, also, it is not at the end of the article in the unapproved methods.


Now. Back to my interpretation.

They do mention that they only recommend the use of a regulator as the only acceptable means, however....

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Time to loss of consciousness is decreased by use of higher concentrations of CO2 with an 80 to 100% concentration providing anesthesia in 12 to 33 seconds in rats and 70% CO2 in O2 inducing anesthesia in 40 to 50 seconds...
...Time to loss of consciousness will be longer if the concentration is increased slowly rather than immersing the animal in the full concentration immediately.

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And,

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Several investigators have suggested that inhalation of high concentrations of CO2 may be distressing to animals, because the gas dissolves in moisture on the nasal mucosa. The resulting product, carbonic acid, may stimulate nociceptors in the nasal mucosa.

A brief study of swine examined the aversive nature of CO2 exposure and found that 90% CO2 was aversive to pigs while 30% was not. For rats, exposure to increasing concentrations of CO2 (33% achieved after 1 minute) in their home cage produced no evident stress as measured by behavior and ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone concentrations in serum

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They do not mention anywhere what the levels of CO2 production are for dry ice, but I hazard a guess a search would find this information.

I will take a stab in the dark and say the CO2 released is very high in percentage, which allows for a short time to unconsciousness, approx 15-33 seconds (AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia, pg. 8) and falls into their guidelines of being a humane way to dispatch rodents.

If you find concrete proof that the CO2 being given off by dry ice falls below the rate or concentration percentage they mention in the article I will concede. Until then, I do not think you can say that using dry ice is inhumane when used properly like directed in this thread.

My .02 cents.

Connie, thanks for more eloquently stating what I tried to say in a post some number of months ago on this thread.

Unless you drop the brick of co2 into hot water, the rate of sublimination is so low that you would expect the concentration to rise at the same rate or lower than that of what is recommended for a regulated CO2 chamber. CO2 sublimination is highly dependent upon environmental conditions - I don't blame the AVMA for being unable to officially recommend it. Common sense along with a little background knowledge can go a long way.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Tyler, I suggest you read thoroughly the AVMA section on the use of CO2. The text is not concrete, and is open to interpretation, which we have all done, either for or against dry ice.

I personally believe CO2 by the dry ice method is also humane. No where in their text to they explicitly say that it is inhumane, nor do they hint at it. They simply say that for reasons of control, it is not acceptable.

You may have taken this to mean it is inhumane, but if you were to read the complete text of the article, you would know that where they find a method inhumane, they explicitly say so and why. I do not feel they leave those methods open to speculation.

There is only that small mention of dry ice, no where else do they mention it, also, it is not at the end of the article in the unapproved methods.


Now. Back to my interpretation.

They do mention that they only recommend the use of a regulator as the only acceptable means, however....



And,



They do not mention anywhere what the levels of CO2 production are for dry ice, but I hazard a guess a search would find this information.

I will take a stab in the dark and say the CO2 released is very high in percentage, which allows for a short time to unconsciousness, approx 15-33 seconds (AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia, pg. 8) and falls into their guidelines of being a humane way to dispatch rodents.

If you find concrete proof that the CO2 being given off by dry ice falls below the rate or concentration percentage they mention in the article I will concede. Until then, I do not think you can say that using dry ice is inhumane when used properly like directed in this thread.

My .02 cents.

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You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

Tyler

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

Tyler

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no you are dead wrong read it in the correct context before you argue. its stating that CO2 canisters are the RECOMMENDED source of CO2 for euthanasia because i can be regulated for its application (larger or smaller animal of course) It does not say other methods are in humane just that The unconscious period to death period can be prolonged by approximately 30-45 seconds due to an inability to regulate the flow and add more gas as needed. it also states the ineffectiveness of an unregulated method as some larger animals can escape the euthanasia by lifting its head above the heavier CO2 gas. these 2 reasons is why CO2 compressed gas being dispersed by a regulated method is RECOMMENDED

they dont feel it at all. they are unconscious with dry ice or CO2 compressed gas either way before the perish. the question is the speed of the euthanasia and the effectiveness of the application method for the animal it is euthanising. and in this case its rats, and them methos displayed in the first post 100% is proven human and effective for its application. Euthanasia via CO2 is humane. and so are these applications.

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

You are 100% dead WRONG!!!!

The following was taken from page 8 of the AVMA (AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION) GUIDELINES ON EUTHANASIA, JUNE 2007 and they are very specific:

Recommendations—Carbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

It says in black and white that compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. And that dry ice is unacceptable!!! How can you possibly refute that???

I do not post here often, but I believe the moderators should read for themselves this section of the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia and convey this information to the members of this forum. I believe it to be of the utmost of importance.

Tyler

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Tyler,

Okay, I understand clearly now you do not want to discuss the meaning of speculation and interpretation in regards to the use of dry ice.

You can say what you like, however I do feel with good conscience that using CO2 from dry ice is acceptable and also humane when done correctly.

If you want to continue to argue that I am 100% wrong, please feel free to, I don't guarantee I will consider you competent or worth my time to even discuss it with because of the lack of comprehension you have shown in this thread from the above response.

I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.

As such, if you feel the need to dismiss everything I have written here because it is simply not in agreement with you, then I suggest you stay at home where no one can disagree with you. Ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Tyler,

Okay, I understand clearly now you do not want to discuss the meaning of speculation and interpretation in regards to the use of dry ice.

You can say what you like, however I do feel with good conscience that using CO2 from dry ice is acceptable and also humane when done correctly.

If you want to continue to argue that I am 100% wrong, please feel free to, I don't guarantee I will consider you competent or worth my time to even discuss it with because of the lack of comprehension you have shown in this thread from the above response.

I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.

As such, if you feel the need to dismiss everything I have written here because it is simply not in agreement with you, then I suggest you stay at home where no one can disagree with you. Ever.

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LittleIndianGirl,

My last point/question then I am going to drop this conversation.....maybe. I only want to know what is it about the fact that the AVMA says "carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as dry ice is unacceptable" makes using dry ice acceptable?

Tyler

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xxTYLERxx

LittleIndianGirl,

My last point/question then I am going to drop this conversation.....maybe. I only want to know what is it about the fact that the AVMA says "carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as dry ice is unacceptable" makes using dry ice acceptable?

Tyler

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Tyler,

My entire response to yours before the last two was my entire reasoning written out with the points from the AVMA I believe to be the most impressing.

Simply put, they do not say it is inhumane to use dry ice, rather, they say it is not acceptable because of the lack of being able to control the CO2.

That is a difference, and I believe if it were viewed as inhumane, they would have clearly written it as so, and I have been trying to point out.

To read the entire guide, I get a sense of right and wrong; they will clearly outline what is humane and inhumane, however in the mention of dry ice, they did not even delve into the ethics of using dry ice CO2, or if it should not be used because it is potentially inhumane.

Catch my drift yet?

As such, coupled with the information they discuss about the uses of CO2, the rates and also the concentration of CO2, I believe it is entirely acceptable and possible to use CO2 from dry ice in a respectable and humane manner.

To that end, I have asked you if you can find some concrete evidence that clearly shows that using dry ice is clearly not effective enough, or diverges far from the concentrations and air displaced from conventional methods, then I will concede my point. However, the use of dry ice has been shown to be very quick and effective while also being just as humane as using conventional methods.

edit:
I do also want to say I admire your passion for ethical treatment of feeders, it can be few and far between. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I can be very civil and discuss important topics such as this, and being I am likely one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders on this board, I have not taken this argument lightly or without doing my own thorough research.

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I am delighted to hear that you consider yourself "...... one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders......" I consider myself not only to be one of the strongest and most vocal supporters for ethical and humane treatment of feeders, I also put my strong and vocal support into action.

With that said, I am curious why you don't use a CO2 canister? Is it the cost or inconvenience? Or is it that you feel that dry ice is as equally humane as a CO2 canister?

Tyer