How Low?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Guys this is a perfect example of how things can work in the market.

MKR drops the price on lessers for 24 hours, sells out, has everyong crying that the sky is falling....now he's sold out....no more lessers for 2500 or mojavies for 800.

Any of you, call up any other large breeder and tell them you want to buy a lesser for 2500 because Joe sold his, so that must be what they are worth. Go ahead, see what those breeders say.

Guess what? The price of lessers just doubled the moment he sold out!

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Now its harder for him to get his hands on more to breed or expand his stock. NICE!!

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Guys this is a perfect example of how things can work in the market.

MKR drops the price on lessers for 24 hours, sells out, has everyong crying that the sky is falling....now he's sold out....no more lessers for 2500 or mojavies for 800.

Any of you, call up any other large breeder and tell them you want to buy a lesser for 2500 because Joe sold his, so that must be what they are worth. Go ahead, see what those breeders say.

Guess what? The price of lessers just doubled the moment he sold out!

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I get what you are saying, but will that really happen? Will he do it again? That must be the main concern for those bigger names and even small time breeders. If they hear he has these animals available again, will they get nervous and could we see another "name" dump his stuff in anticipation of MKR doing that to beat him to the punch?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Guys this is a perfect example of how things can work in the market.

MKR drops the price on lessers for 24 hours, sells out, has everyong crying that the sky is falling....now he's sold out....no more lessers for 2500 or mojavies for 800.

Any of you, call up any other large breeder and tell them you want to buy a lesser for 2500 because Joe sold his, so that must be what they are worth. Go ahead, see what those breeders say.

Guess what? The price of lessers just doubled the moment he sold out!

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That is true, about market.
Why would they double?

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I get what you are saying, but will that really happen? Will he do it again? That must be the main concern for those bigger names and even small time breeders. If they hear he has these animals available again, will they get nervous and could we see another "name" dump his stuff in anticipation of MKR doing that to beat him to the punch?

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I wouldnt anticipate another serious reputable 'name' but- I dont think MKR is exactly selling out his breeding stock....
?

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Now its harder for him to get his hands on more to breed or expand his stock. NICE!!

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He might have sold out of the stock of mojaves/lesser he sells......but that doesnt mean he doesnt have some of these animals that he uses strictly for production purposes.....Not all animals are for sale.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Now its harder for him to get his hands on more to breed or expand his stock. NICE!!

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Not really....he did not sell any female and probably not all the males.

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That is true, about market.
Why would they double?

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I was half-kidding.....this sale that he put on had the whole world freaking out about how lessers were now only worth 2500 bucks. Everyone with lessers for sale IS NOT going to just up and drop their price to 2500 just cause one guy did it. Make sense? Go shoot RDR an email and see if he'll give you a lesser for 2500. YEAH RIGHT!

None of us really know what he has behind the scenes.

I don't think it is likely that we will see another "Name" Dump it any time soon..... but before MKR did this, would you of laughed at me if I said I know a big name breeder that is selling Mojaves for $800? Or Lessers for $2500?

It's a possibility is all I'm saying, if it's happened once it can happen again and most likely will at some point!

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Not really....he did not sell any female and probably not all the males.

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Oh yea see this is what happens when you psot with a headache.. LOL

I think people need to realize that co-doms are easy produce en mass if you set up for it. All you need is money and a 6th grade education. The supply of them is going to go up and the price is going to go down.

All other things being equal, if more and more people demand them asthe supply increases and the price drops, you begin to have a more stable price reduction curve over time, if you think about it graphically. So of course you'll have bigger drops when the price is high, and eventually will level out and not decrease as dramatically over time as more are produced.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Everyone with lessers for sale IS NOT going to just up and drop their price to 2500 just cause one guy did it. Make sense? Go shoot RDR an email and see if he'll give you a lesser for 2500. YEAH RIGHT!

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True, but he won't get anything near what he planned on getting for them. Ball prices roughly drop 50% a season, not 90%. I'm sure the big breeders were planning on pricing their Lessers in the $10,000-$15,000 range this season. Now that people know there are $2,500 Lessers to be had, how many people will be looking to buy a $10,000 Lesser? And even if Ralph dropped the price to $5,000, most potential buyers will wonder where the floor is and if they should wait.

I think Morph King should change their name to King of the Jimmys...

I don't agree that co-doms drop as quickly as 50% per year (not sure where you are getting your #s) but I do agree with you that public sales like that really do create a lot of skepticism that is overall a "bad" thing.

Damn why's Adam gotta be on vacation during this....I'm sure when he gets back he can really put it into perspective for us.

is this kind of drop only on co-dom and dom or do the ressessive suffer the same fate?

I guarantee when he goes to buy the next "big morph" from another breeder they won't sell it to him.

unless he imports

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

unless he imports

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I am talking about someone producing something like a super stripe, if he doesn't have the genetics they won't sell it to him. I doubt importing is gonna help him much.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I guarantee when he goes to buy the next "big morph" from another breeder they won't sell it to him.

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He could always go through an intermediate as well. (Hire a purchaser.)

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

is this kind of drop only on co-dom and dom or do the ressessive suffer the same fate?

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Co-doms can be produced in the first generation of offspring when bred to normals. Same with dominante genes.

Recessives are harder to hit because you are playing more of an odds game. Homozygous x het gives you a 50/50 chance, het x het gives you a 1/4 chance, etc etc


I'm kind of afraid when people start getting greedy with recessives and crossing homozygous x homozygous sibs left and right and don't outcross their bloodlines. Now we're talking about quality issues. Co-doms are generally strong because they are crossed with normals so often. You could see a bunch of weak albinos, kinked caramels, etc. I could see overall quality decreasing. Do any of you think a breeder looking to make quick cash with a pair of albinos or caramels or pied cares about the bloodline at all? Tell me then....would you buy from Jimmy, MKR, or someone better?

I only hope the other breeders are on this someone needs to call Raph and Bob and Adam and NERD and let them know. If they don't already.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Co-doms can be produced in the first generation of offspring when bred to normals. Same with dominante genes.

Recessives are harder to hit because you are playing more of an odds game. Homozygous x het gives you a 50/50 chance, het x het gives you a 1/4 chance, etc etc


I'm kind of afraid when people start getting greedy with recessives and crossing homozygous x homozygous sibs left and right and don't outcross their bloodlines. Now we're talking about quality issues. Co-doms are generally strong because they are crossed with normals so often. You could see a bunch of weak albinos, kinked caramels, etc. I could see overall quality decreasing. Do any of you think a breeder looking to make quick cash with a pair of albinos or caramels or pied cares about the bloodline at all? Tell me then....would you buy from Jimmy, MKR, or someone better?

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Mods excuse me on this one. HELL no I would never buy from a Jimmy quality over morph any day of any week. You trade quality for the morph and you pay for it in the long run. I would rather pay 25,000.00 to get a lesser from Adam or Ralph and know that I got a great snake than pay 2500.00 and worry about over inbreeding and long term health problems caused by the like.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I'm kind of afraid when people start getting greedy with recessives and crossing homozygous x homozygous sibs left and right and don't outcross their bloodlines. Now we're talking about quality issues. Co-doms are generally strong because they are crossed with normals so often. You could see a bunch of weak albinos, kinked caramels, etc. I could see overall quality decreasing. Do any of you think a breeder looking to make quick cash with a pair of albinos or caramels or pied cares about the bloodline at all? Tell me then....would you buy from Jimmy, MKR, or someone better?

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Great point.....but if you bought two albinos from seperate breeders you could avoid this problem. As long as they are not sib x sib over consective generations than you dont need to worry about the effects of inbreeding.

He may of made his "Quick Buck" cash sale, but it has cost him something far more valuable.... integrity!

It's something that is worked hard for and should be of the highest importance IMO!

He clearly either doesn't have a clue what it is or he has total contempt for it.

I don't foresee any reputable person in this business "Knowingly" selling any new morph to him. New morphs are of extreme value, I can't see someone for "hire" getting past the shield of the big time producers. They are a little too smart for that because they are protecting a valuable asset.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Great point.....but if you bought two albinos from seperate breeders you could avoid this problem.

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Of course, but what I'm saying is, do you think that is what EVERYONE will do, especially the bad mass producers?

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

He may of made his "Quick Buck" cash sale, but it has cost him something far more valuable.... integrity!

It's something that is worked hard for and should be of the highest importance IMO!

He clearly either doesn't have a clue what it is or he has total contempt for it.

I don't foresee any reputable person in this business "Knowingly" selling any new morph to him. New morphs are of extreme value, I can't see someone for "hire" getting past the shield of the big time producers. They are a little too smart for that because they are protecting a valuable asset.

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Bingo there are hundreds of people here and we will all tell people that he is no someone to do business with. Good point

MKR JUST reposted the add for both Mojaves and Lessers. The games go on...

That's the thing, till just now MKR was at the level of the RDR, NERD, VPI, etc.

And even if the RDR, NERD or VPI sell for $10,000 compared to 20 other sellers marketing the same snake for $2500, what difference will 3 breeders really make? This is not something one breeder or two or three breeders can correct with an email or a post in forum.

As some already mentioned, who will pay $15,000 for a Lesser today when they can go elsewhere (and not just some no name breeder that no one has ever heard of) someone like MKR or another well respected breeder later on for $2500-$3000, just an example?

Do 2-3 or even 5 Breeders dictate price or do 20-30 or 50 other sellers along with buyers? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it seems for the past 6-7 months prices have gone down or are we still willing to pay $3000-$5000 for a Mojave when you could've picked one up from MKR for $800 or anywhere else for $1200-$1500? How about $5000 for a Spider when you could pick one up for $1000-$1250.

Whether you or I or RD or NERD values them at a certain price tag. The snakes are selling for less whether anyone likes it or not and whether anyone accepts it or not!

I think MKR dumping like they did just goes to show that it's not just the Jimmy's anymore! And right now the focus may be on MK and lets kill them, but what if next month another well known breeder decides to dump a few clutches? Then what?

To be honest, I would simply like to ask...when does it level out??
At what point do BP breeders in general, not just 2-3 top breeders say "this is worth $500 or $1000 and this is where it will stay".

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Originally Posted by cueball

MKR JUST reposted the add for both Mojaves and Lessers. The games go on...

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That's impossible, didn't they sell out??
LOL...

Still had 7 lessers, maybe he decided to release more mojaves?

another jimmy category is needed! lol "Big Jimmy" the first Big Jimmy has come out of the closet! lol.


they can get new morphs anyone with 40,60,100k can do it. the importers will sell it to anyone. the biggest point with me is their past customers, they bent them over pretty roughly. the ones that paid 3-4 times that price last year are probably pretty upset with them now? what are your customers opinions and goals worth to you? i personally would try to help any of my customers out and help them be as successful as possible. success will breed success and further sales. i will only buy from people that will support my hobby and goals!!!

prices drops , supply and demand, etc. 50-75% price cuts in less than 6 months is plain bs... oil doesn't move that much, gold,diamonds,etc. hell real estate in lebanon hasn't dropped that much and it's getting bombed right now! my thoughts


vaughn

no the repost was to sell off the remainders he said he was going to do that.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I think MKR dumping like they did just goes to show that it's not just the Jimmy's anymore! And right now the focus may be on MK and lets kill them, but what if next month another well known breeder decides to dump a few clutches? Then what?

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It takes but "one" to start a domino effect!

I guarantee I won't buy a thing from him. The way he is producing clowns that will be the next snake he decides to drop and "blowout". I hope anyone going to Daytona is going to tell him to "get bent".

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

It takes but "one" to start a domino effect!

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I do not predict this will happen at all. I know the major players that have been around for a while and they are all very smart and savvy in their own respects. They are where they are today because they have a broad vision and the stability to rough the storms, regardless of how frequent or horrendous these storms may be.


Long live python regus :gj:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

another jimmy category is needed! lol "Big Jimmy" the first Big Jimmy has come out of the closet! lol.


they can get new morphs anyone with 40,60,100k can do it. the importers will sell it to anyone. the biggest point with me is their past customers, they bent them over pretty roughly. the ones that paid 3-4 times that price last year are probably pretty upset with them now? what are your customers opinions and goals worth to you? i personally would try to help any of my customers out and help them be as successful as possible. success will breed success and further sales. i will only buy from people that will support my hobby and goals!!!

prices drops , supply and demand, etc. 50-75% price cuts in less than 6 months is plain bs... oil doesn't move that much, gold,diamonds,etc. hell real estate in lebanon hasn't dropped that much and it's getting bombed right now! my thoughts


vaughn

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But, how long can you hold out at $10,000 when almost every one on the internet (small and a few established) are selling at $5000 or $2500? How long can you hold out at $5000 when every one else on the internet (small and big) is at $1000?

How will you alone or 2-3 breeders help those who bought and how long will buyers buy from you at those price differences? It was one thing when comparing no named sellers to established breeders. Now you have one tomorrow 2-3-5 established breeders selling not only at hundreds, but thousands below you?

Is there no stop to this?

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Originally Posted by cueball

I do not predict this will happen at all. I know the major players that have been around for a while and they are all very smart and savvy in their own respects. They are where they are today because they have a broad vision and the stability to rough the storms, regardless of how frequent or horrendous these storms may be.


Long live python regus :gj:

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Yes they are smart, but there are those under them that wont hold out.... and a lot of them. Pastels went from a good price to dirt in 5 mins.

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

I guarantee I won't buy a thing from him. The way he is producing clowns that will be the next snake he decides to drop and "blowout". I hope anyone going to Daytona is going to tell him to "get bent".

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If only everyone thought this way, but most buyers whether they admit it or not will take $5000 or $1000 in their pockets over supporting a market that is overrun by people trying to simply make a buck!

As for MK not being able to get their hands on any new morphs now. They can simply ask any Jimmy to buy it for them and if you think any breeder is going to turn away $20,000 or $40,000, I'd like to see that!

I think if any one person can possibly make a dent in this situation it's Jeff Berringer!

I'm kind of afraid when people start getting greedy with recessives and crossing homozygous x homozygous sibs left and right and don't outcross their bloodlines. Now we're talking about quality issues. Co-doms are generally strong because they are crossed with normals so often. You could see a bunch of weak albinos, kinked caramels, etc. I could see overall quality decreasing. Do any of you think a breeder looking to make quick cash with a pair of albinos or caramels or pied cares about the bloodline at all? Tell me then....would you buy from Jimmy, MKR, or someone better?

If corn snakes have been inbred as many as 13 generations that i have read with no ill effects and pythons being one of the oldest and 'least evolved' creatures in their respects- i highly doubt that any immediate side-effects from sibxsib breedings will occur any time soon.
These are reptiles, not mammals.
.02$ ya'll.

do you think everyone sells low? do you think rdr,vpi,nerd,tsk,bhb got to their level by low-ballin and stabbing their customers? there is a market for quality,customer service, and most of all trust! i know, i have paid more for some animals for it. if you are looking at investing, do you invest in someone known for "dumping"? if everyone follows suit, then we are all dumb and should have to wear "jimmy" dunse hats! lol. time will tell, the severe drop lends to a little unstability, the timing of the drop, lends to a plan/agenda? not everyone needs to sell so bad either! alot depends on if you look at things from an investment view or just a pet view. to me several thousands is a little more than a pet for the family.



vaughn

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Originally Posted by shhhli

I'm kind of afraid when people start getting greedy with recessives and crossing homozygous x homozygous sibs left and right and don't outcross their bloodlines. Now we're talking about quality issues. Co-doms are generally strong because they are crossed with normals so often. You could see a bunch of weak albinos, kinked caramels, etc. I could see overall quality decreasing. Do any of you think a breeder looking to make quick cash with a pair of albinos or caramels or pied cares about the bloodline at all? Tell me then....would you buy from Jimmy, MKR, or someone better?

If corn snakes have been inbred as many as 13 generations that i have read with no ill effects and pythons being one of the oldest and 'least evolved' creatures in their respects- i highly doubt that any immediate side-effects from sibxsib breedings will occur any time soon.
These are reptiles, not mammals.
.02$ ya'll.

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Last time I checked the basic rules of genetics are no different for reptiles than they are for mammals

"Bloodred Cornsnakes are a line-bred (euphemism for inbred) line of Cornsnakes notorious for producing small hatchings which are difficult to start feeding. Patternless Leopard Geckos are well known for a lack of fertility in males. These are just two well known examples.

Perhaps more common is simply a general lack of vitality which increases with each successive generation. This is exactly what happened with the Bloodred Cornsnakes mentioned earlier. Early in the development of this beautiful morph, breeders selected stocks based on appearance through successive generations. This had the desired effect of producing more and more attractive snakes by reducing the number of alleles which had a counterproductive effect on appearance and increasing the number which had a positive effect. Sadly, this same concentration of alleles had the opposite effect on the hatchlings' desire to accept rodents as first meals."

Full link is here

That's why reputable breeders oubreed every once and awhile. Zoos try do this all the time with populations experiencing inbreeding form bottleneck effects.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Last time I checked the basic rules of genetics are no different for reptiles than they are for mammals

"Bloodred Cornsnakes are a line-bred (euphemism for inbred) line of Cornsnakes notorious for producing small hatchings which are difficult to start feeding. Patternless Leopard Geckos are well known for a lack of fertility in males. These are just two well known examples.

Perhaps more common is simply a general lack of vitality which increases with each successive generation. This is exactly what happened with the Bloodred Cornsnakes mentioned earlier. Early in the development of this beautiful morph, breeders selected stocks based on appearance through successive generations. This had the desired effect of producing more and more attractive snakes by reducing the number of alleles which had a counterproductive effect on appearance and increasing the number which had a positive effect. Sadly, this same concentration of alleles had the opposite effect on the hatchlings' desire to accept rodents as first meals."

Full link is here

That's why reputable breeders oubreed every once and awhile. Zoos try do this all the time with population experiencing inbreeding form bottleneck effects.

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Sweet Thanks.
(some how i knew if i had any response to that it would be from you ;D )
EDIT:Though i would say it is much more different than the severities that can come from inbreeding mammals, a vitality to eat is different from say a dog that has problems with say the heart or its nervous system due to crossing between siblings or back to parents. But in the end, both could insue death

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I think if any one person can possibly make a dent in this situation it's Jeff Berringer!

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What do you think would be a viable solution? I'll pitch it to Barringer pool side in a couple of weeks :gj:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

EDIT:Though i would say it is much more different than the severities that can come from inbreeding mammals, a vitality to eat is different from say a dog that has problems with say the heart or its nervous system due to crossing between siblings or back to parents. But in the end, both could insue death

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Basically Inbreeding concentrates the good recessive traits as well as any of the bad ones.

Penlty of great purebreed dogs have some health problems...and people accept them for the benefit of a certain predicatable behavioral traits and looks.

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Originally Posted by cueball

What do you think would be a viable solution? I'll pitch it to Barringer pool side in a couple of weeks :gj:

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JB doesn't give a ......

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Originally Posted by cueball

What do you think would be a viable solution? I'll pitch it to Barringer pool side in a couple of weeks :gj:

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drop the requirement to post prices with ads...



vaughn

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Basically Inbreeding concentrates the good recessive traits as well as any of the bad ones.

Penlty of great purebreed dogs have some health problems...and people accept them for the benefit of a certain predicatable behavioral traits and looks.

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Excatly. The best dog is a mutt dog imo.
soo ot. kinda..

Who is this Jeff lad?

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Originally Posted by kavmon

drop the requirement to post prices with ads...



vaughn

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Ok, sounds good. Keep them coming!

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Who is this Jeff lad?

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He is the founder and creator of www.kingsnake.com where MKR is posting his adds.

He does care about the reptile community and education. That was the main focus of his site. The classified section is a necessary evil.

i'm pretty sure he has heard all of this before(jeff). also if the scammers and rip-off artists weren't allowed to advertise. he would get more business from quality breeders. it will take everyone doing the right thing to make a difference. i hope joe (mkr) gets bored with money and balls and finds another investment to crap on.

lol.


vaughn

Oh thanks.

Well, if things go to _ in a handbasket on some things, (pessimistic devils advocate here) I would personally like to thank MKR for "giving back to the customers". Any fun I might have had in breeding selling and buying BPs to have a nice collection & the sheer fun of doing it (i have a hunter/gatherer mentality... thats the nice way of saying pack rat i think) would be gone. THANKS!
and im saying this with high end animals- not like corns atm. 20$ for a normal. fun. With the price of my pastel female i could have had a plethera of corn morphs (not to undermine the cute little buggers) but where's the fun in instant gratification? I like having a goal out of reach that i can strive for.
</ramble ramble ramble.

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Originally Posted by kavmon

drop the requirement to post prices with ads...



vaughn

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How is that going to help?

Who wants to see ads that don't have a price on them?