Update on Fluffy's clutch + pics

Wow, This is gettin' good.... Time machine anyone!?!?;)

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Originally Posted by max123

Well they might be in a plastic tub but does that make the female any less able to take care of her eggs? But the conditions in the encloser would play apart in the hole thing. There is still some techneq involved in both. I think it will work out, but we will see. I wish you the best of luck.:headbang:

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I think everyone is missing the point. Yes, maternal incubation can be successful. Yes, it is the only way that eggs hatch in the wild. However, these are snakes in captivity, kept in plastic enclosures with heating elements plugged into a wall. This is not nature or the great outdoors. Why put the snake through any more than she needs to be? Its just not necessary.

Boas don't need artificial incubation. So there! Boas can do it...BP's can do it. I am just being sarcastic...don't mind me. Hope it works for ya. I love it when others are wrong...guess you can say I always route for the under dog.

One thing I like about this site is that the people here are open to ideas as long as it isn't harming the snake. This, imo, isn't doing that. He is just letting a snake do it's thing naturally. There is nothing wrong with that. GTP's do a much better job incubating their own eggs than we can artificially. It may not be easier for the breeder, but it's not unethical...therefore, it shouldn't be knocked.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Boas don't need artificial incubation. So there! Boas can do it...BP's can do it. I am just being sarcastic...don't mind me. Hope it works for ya. I love it when others are wrong...guess you can say I always route for the under dog.

One thing I like about this site is that the people here are open to ideas as long as it isn't harming the snake. This, imo, isn't doing that. He is just letting a snake do it's thing naturally. There is nothing wrong with that. GTP's do a much better job incubating their own eggs than we can artificially. It may not be easier for the breeder, but it's not unethical...therefore, it shouldn't be knocked.

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If you find a way to artifically incubate Boas, lemme know. That would be something!! I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Jimi! :carouse:

Love and war? or Love to War? haha. Deal :carouse:

Thats why I said that the conditions in the the tube would play a part, becouse it isnt nature. But its not like its not in the snake to be able to do it. Its in its nature. Just becouse she's in a tub doesnt mean she lost her instincts. It might not be necessary but it works. As long as she can recover or even take the next year off if need be I dont think it would be a big deal. But I am not talking from experience, just my :2cent:. So take it as you may.

I would never do maternal incubation. Knowing the humidity levels those eggs need, I would be afraid the mom could possibly develop belly rot if the substrate were kept that moist, to retain that much humidity..

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I would never do maternal incubation. Knowing the humidity levels those eggs need, I would be afraid the mom could possibly develop belly rot if the substrate were kept that moist, to retain that much humidity..

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Good point!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I would never do maternal incubation. Knowing the humidity levels those eggs need, I would be afraid the mom could possibly develop belly rot if the substrate were kept that moist, to retain that much humidity..

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She did not lay on moist substrate nor do I moisten the substrate below her or the eggs. She is actually hardly on much substrate at all now, it is almost all around her. All I do to keep the humidity up is give her a large water dish and mist inside the tank daily, mostly on the inside walls of the aquarium. One thing I do remember reading in a maternal incubation article is to keep the substrate under the eggs dry.

I'm not trying to say maternal incubation can not be done, but there is no benefit to the mother or eggs. In the wild a female can very precisely choose the location to lay her clutch, in a tub she is extememly limited. In a tub, the mother will be much more affected by long term increase in humidity as well.

I wish you the best of luck with those eggs, and I hope they all hatch. :gj:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I'm not trying to say maternal incubation can not be done, but there is no benefit to the mother or eggs. In the wild a female can very precisely choose the location to lay her clutch, in a tub she is extememly limited. In a tub, the mother will be much more affected by long term increase in humidity as well.

I wish you the best of luck with those eggs, and I hope they all hatch. :gj:

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I would say you are wasting your breath at this point :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I would say you are wasting your breath at this point :sweeet:

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I'm not trying to persuade him to switch now. He's made his decision, and I can accept that. What I do want is the other side of the story available to people looking into maternal incubation. :rolleyes:

I think maybe I should get a few things straight here just so everyone is at an understanding.

I ended up being in a moving transition when my female laid her eggs, and I did not have an incubator prepared as of yet. This made me consider maternal incubation more than I had before. I dished out quite a bit of money the next day for an incubator, and prepared it for incubation over the next two days. During that time I considered which method to use for the eggs, and I read a few articles on both methods. As I said before, none of the articles said that one method was right or wrong. I also did not find information expressing all the added stress that the female and eggs would endure as a result of going the maternal route. I started a thread here to get some opinions on the matter, and I did get a few responses where people said they were not fans of maternal incubation or just did not practice it. The past few days of this thread are the first I have heard about all of the disadvantages to this method. If I had known these things before hand, I most likely would have taken my chances with the incubator instead, but that is not the case, so here I am.

Today is about day 30 since the eggs have been laid. They have been incubating at varying temperatures and humidity levels as far as what I have provided them with. How much the female has been able to control these levels I am not sure of. I have just been going by mostly an article by Bob Clark as far as what kind of conditions to keep inside the tank.

I would like to hear opinions from anyone experienced or qualified, do you think it would still be better for the eggs and the female to switch to artificial incubation after it has already been 30 days or more?

Your breath is not wasted, I read every single reply and learn more from all of them, I just wish I had some of this information available 30 days ago.

Also, I am a her, not a him, and I sincerely want the best for my snakes and other pets.

Without having to reread this massive thread - can you remind us of the expected hatch date? I can't wait to see how you make out. I'm pulling for you.

Sept. 16 will be 52 days in.

Thanks for your support, I appreciate it.

I can't wait!!!!!!!

Sweetness!!


The sure are moving along!!!!!:carrot:

Any news?

Still playing the waiting game...

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Still playing the waiting game...

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How much longer? I personally can't wait.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

Sept. 16 will be 52 days in.

Thanks for your support, I appreciate it.

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I'm with ya "JCrickett"..... :D

I had been thinking of letting my females incubate when it comes time for mine. Do you have links fo rthe articles you had read before this all started? I would like to read up on what more experienced breeders have had success with.
I agree with the statements 'they aren't in their natural setting', but also feel that being allowed (made to?) to hatch their own eggs wouldn't necesarrily be bad for them. Yes, they have a limited choice of egg placement, but their enclosure should be pretty close to ideal anyway, right? I would postulate that there would be less stress maternally incubating in an enclosure than in the wild due to them being a LOT more secure in their environment to begin with.
And there is my :twocents:

I would like to end with wishing Rapture all the best there is her quest for babies. I think we pretty much think alike with our critters.

http://www.biology.ucr.edu/people/fa...0incubation%22

http://www.bobclark.com/a03_06.asp

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/w...their-eggs.pdf

http://www.rcreptiles.com/articles/e...hon-regius.pdf

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

How much longer? I personally can't wait.

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As of today, the eggs have been incubating for 43 days. It will probably be day 60 or longer before they pip.

Thanks for your interest :)

Woo Hoo! Only 2 weeks to go!!!!

So, anytime now, right?

Can't wait!

Today is day 47

Day 49! Getting close!

Day 49 and 1/2 lol!

Stop reminding me... :P

When I don't think about it, the time goes by faster.

almost day 50!

(sorry couldn't resist LOL)

i would like to start off by saying i know NOTHING about breeding, hatching, incubating etc. NOTHING at all.

but... i believe Mother Earth/Goddess/Mother Nature - whatever you believe is the life force behind critters... i believe She knows what She's doing and She creates critters to be able to do their job as a mother. just because bottles and formula are available doesn't mean it's better than me breastfeeding my babies. i'm the type of person though that always attempts to leave as much to nature as possible... and (just my 2 cents here) if i was living in a small plastic enclosure... i would really appreciate someone allowing me the priveledge of hatching out my eggs myself... since other aspects of 'nature' would be gone from my life.

anyways... this isn't about breastfeeding, or nature... it's about choice. and IMO, you are making the best choice you can, given all the information you've researched and i'm darned proud of you! it's not always easy to stand up for what you believe to be true when others are disagreeing.

i wish you a healthy clutch of gorgeous babies - SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

Can't wait to see those babies maternal babies. Maybe 6-10 days more.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i would like to start off by saying i know NOTHING about breeding, hatching, incubating etc. NOTHING at all.

but... i believe Mother Earth/Goddess/Mother Nature - whatever you believe is the life force behind critters... i believe She knows what She's doing and She creates critters to be able to do their job as a mother. just because bottles and formula are available doesn't mean it's better than me breastfeeding my babies. i'm the type of person though that always attempts to leave as much to nature as possible... and (just my 2 cents here) if i was living in a small plastic enclosure... i would really appreciate someone allowing me the priveledge of hatching out my eggs myself... since other aspects of 'nature' would be gone from my life.

anyways... this isn't about breastfeeding, or nature... it's about choice. and IMO, you are making the best choice you can, given all the information you've researched and i'm darned proud of you! it's not always easy to stand up for what you believe to be true when others are disagreeing.

i wish you a healthy clutch of gorgeous babies - SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

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Thank you, I'm glad you at least understand why I am doing what I am doing. I believe I am doing what is good for my animals.

And yes, today is day 50. I am the kind of person that doesn't really get excited about things until they actually happen, but by all means, be excited for me... :P

no problem i'll happily do it for ya!

YIPPPPPPPPPEE

I would have to agree with Goddess :sweeet: Thumbs up for you girl.

And more power to you Rapture for giving Nature a chance. not many people do that in todays world. everything is Synthetic (SP?) now. Some times nature works the best.

I hope all goes well and all the babies are happy and healthy... and send LOTS of pics! I might want one of the girls if you get any :D

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Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons

I might want one of the girls if you get any :D

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Hahaha, I might want one of them as well...

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Originally Posted by jessie_k_pythons

everything is Synthetic (SP?) now.

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Yeah ... kind of like snakes in plastic boxes!! ;)

Nature RULES! :D

-adam

LOL I know I should talk huh :P Some things are just better with nature and others are not. it really depends on the animal/person and what it's needs are. I dont apose unnatural things. I will take Prozac anyday over St. John wart :D (prob shouldnt have told you guys that LOL ) and I would rather eat fresh veggies over frozen fortified viggies. Then again Im really an odd ball with crazy ideas on things :rolleye2:

oh man i hate fortified viggies :rofl:

Are we down to a week now? Woo Hoo!!!!

Congrats on the eggs! If I was to breed I would say "Screw technology, we have mother nature on our hands now!" :P I hope all the babies hatch out. And if I were to breed I'd do Maternal. Dont get discouraged if they dont hatch at day 60, sometimes with Maternal incubation it takes a bit longer and sometimes can go up to 100days!!!:O :mad: But thats with bad humidity and warmth. And obviously you seem to have good heating and humidity going on. Im proud you didnt just take the eggs from your girl because every one says " Why are you doing it that way, why not incubate with your incubator" But you did what you wanted to do, and its your choice. And look now, babies in a week!!!:D

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Congrats on the eggs! If I was to breed I would say "Screw technology, we have mother nature on our hands now!" :P I hope all the babies hatch out. And if I were to breed I'd do Maternal. Dont get discouraged if they dont hatch at day 60, sometimes with Maternal incubation it takes a bit longer and sometimes can go up to 100days!!!:O :mad: But thats with bad humidity and warmth. And obviously you seem to have good heating and humidity going on. Im proud you didnt just take the eggs from your girl because every one says " Why are you doing it that way, why not incubate with your incubator" But you did what you wanted to do, and its your choice. And look now, babies in a week!!!:D

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I'll just say, let's hope you don't decide to breed. Its rather obvious that you don't have the animal's best interest at heart. Thanks for bringing nothing to the table though! :carrot:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I'll just say, let's hope you don't decide to breed. Its rather obvious that you don't have the animal's best interest at heart. Thanks for bringing nothing to the table though! :carrot:

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What? Ofcourse I have the animal in mind, thats why I'd actually let the female incubate. Im would not be no mad animal breeder who only breeds so I could have babies and a profit. The animal is the first thing in my mind if I'd ever consider breeding. I would let the female decide when she is ready never do any of this cooling down for breeding reasons. I would never breed just to breed and take away eggs after a long stressful period for the gravid female, then take eggs away? Not how I think. I think its cruel to take something from a female. Especailly babies or eggs. I'd wait untill babies are out of the eggs then seperate them. Because when the female actually decides she wants to mate, she is probably thinking of eggs and her tiome incubating them. How could you say I dont have the animals best interest in my heart? Taking eggs away from the female who just had a long time having eggs inside her isnt very "animals best interest for her" so how I see it. But this is just my 2 cents and being more of an naturalist I'll have to stay with my opinion. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

What? Ofcourse I have the animal in mind, thats why I'd actually let the female incubate. Im would not be no mad animal breeder who only breeds so I could have babies and a profit. The animal is the first thing in my mind if I'd ever consider breeding. I would let the female decide when she is ready never do any of this cooling down for breeding reasons. I would never breed just to breed and take away eggs after a long stressful period for the gravid female, then take eggs away? Not how I think. I think its cruel to take something from a female. Especailly babies or eggs. I'd wait untill babies are out of the eggs then seperate them. Because when the female actually decides she wants to mate, she is probably thinking of eggs and her tiome incubating them. How could you say I dont have the animals best interest in my heart? Taking eggs away from the female who just had a long time having eggs inside her isnt very "animals best interest for her" so how I see it. But this is just my 2 cents and being more of an naturalist I'll have to stay with my opinion. Thank you.

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You are doing what is called anthopomorphizing. The definition is to attribute human form or feelings to something non human. Snakes breed to procreate as instinct tells them to. They don't look forward to mating, enjoy the birthing process or have whimsical rememberances of their past offspring. So that said, why wouldn't you do what is right and not subject your snake to two extra months of non feeding and 24/7 stress of maternally incubating eggs?

Well maybe because I believe animals have feelings and all of that. And humans dont believe things past what they can see or feel. But I will not argue about that. I just believe nature should take its course and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! And jsut so you know, all females who have babies or are pregnant do have a lot of stess and a lot more... we cant just take our babies out of us and say " Well Im stressed, time for the test tube"

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Originally Posted by jglass38

So that said, why wouldn't you do what is right and not subject your snake to two extra months of non feeding and 24/7 stress of maternally incubating eggs?

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Why is your way "right" and her way "wrong?" (And I could ask her the same question.) BP's have been maternally incubating for as long as there have been BP's...and there are a LOT of BP's out there in the wild...so it can't exactly be "wrong" for the snake.

Personally, I would choose to take the eggs and allow the female a faster recovery. But that doesn't mean maternal incubation is wrong. This is very similar to the live vs. f/t debate, I think. The snakes can thrive both ways...so why does it matter if someone else chooses to do it differeintly than you do?

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Well maybe because I believe animals have feelings and all of that. And humans dont believe things past what they can see or feel. But I will not argue about that. I just believe nature should take its course and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

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What you believe in is clearly fairy tales and not nature. Rock on! :rockon:

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Well maybe because I believe animals have feelings and all of that. And humans dont believe things past what they can see or feel.

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Wow.

I realize there are probably no large-scale breeders that practice maternal incubation with their BP's. I just hope that anyone posting on this thread would read it in its entirety, including the links I posted that include theories backed with hard evidence as to why maternal incubation is actually beneficial to the neonates compared to artificial incubation, and that it also does not seem to cause much stress for the female incubating. This data was taken from animals in captivity. I posted the links to these lab reports in this thread when a member requested articles about maternal incubation.

So, just please read everything in attempts to understand why I am doing what I am doing before forming the opinion that I do not care about the health of my animals or that I am not doing what is right for them.

(Jamie, this is not directed at your above post.)