Ethics of Hybrids

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Good thing there's no UV radiation in my home or at my shop. ;)

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I beg to differ. There's got to be some scientific explanation for the antics that take place there.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I beg to differ. There's got to be some scientific explanation for the antics that take place there.

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It's all the cool morphs ... they're intoxicating! ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It's the nerve endings that do the work.

If you were missing your toe nails, you'd still be able to walk, you'd just have less to chew on at night while watching American Idol. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/imag...es/biggrin.gif

-adam

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Yeah, just look at boas. None of the pits, but all of the thermosensory capabilities. I would think that the pits themselves provide more surface area for the nerve endings than just a normal scale, but that's just speculation on my part.

-Evan

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You equated "gross health problems" to the derma ball.

That is my point of disagreement.

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I understood your point of disagreement and I said your right....I mispoke, OK?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Good thing there's no UV radiation in my home or at my shop. ;)



There have been adult albino ball pythons (as well as other adult mutations) collected from the wild that are now thriving in captivity with no health problems.

There have also been adult scale less rattle snakes found and recorded in the US that were thriving.

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I'm not arguing with you...or at least trying not too...I am well aware of this.....I mention in another thread that there a big group of albinos in a Japanese city.....

There's all kind of things that occur in the wild.....genetic drift, founder effect, etc that make can make a wild gene pool "unpure".....or abberant.

Gene pools in the wild are never really pure and that's a good thing, Variety allows for natural selection.....an organism with the same set of alleles at all loci is one that is likely to go extinct

Even what we view as "disease causing allele" in many ways depends on the context.....

Africian Ancestary gives one a greater chance of carrying the recessive allele for sickle-cell disease. One might wonder why this allele hasnt been eliminated by natural selection? Carriers of the sickle-cell trait have increased resistance to malaria. Homozygotes for the trait exhibit sickle cell, but the allele is maintained in the population because of the selective advantage of the heterozygote. This is example of what is called heterozygote superiority.


So is it fair to call the allele for sickle cell a disease causing allele when it has been maintained by selection for really good reasons?


Like I said it depends on context....captivity, different conditions in the wild etc.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

They are both currently eating live, but since they've been in my care over the past 10 - 12 years, they've both taken F/T as well as P/K ... Doesn't matter to them or to me. ;)

-adam

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Very interesting!

Thanks for relaying your first hand experience.....As they say in Jurrasic Park "life finds a way"!

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

There's all kind of things that occur in the wild.....genetic drift, founder effect, etc that make can make a wild gene pool "unpure".....or abberant.

Gene pools in the wild are never really pure and that's a good thing, Variety allows for natural selection.....an organism with the same set of alleles at all loci is one that is likely to go extinct

Even what we view as "disease causing allele" in many ways depends on the context.....

Africian Ancestary gives one a greater chance of carrying the recessive allele for sickle-cell disease. One might wonder why this allele hasnt been eliminated by natural selection? Carriers of the sickle-cell trait have increased resistance to malaria. Homozygotes for the trait exhibit sickle cell, but the allele is maintained in the population because of the selective advantage of the heterozygote. This is example of what is called heterozygote superiority.


So is it fair to call the allele for sickle cell a disease causing allele when it been maintained by selection for really good reasons?


Like I said it depends on context....captivity, different conditions in the wild etc.

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Holy Tangent Batman! :rolleye2:

Sounds impressive, I'll give ya that. ;) :P

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Very interesting!

Thanks for relaying your first hand experience.....As they say in Jurrasic Park "life finds a way"!

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That's why ball pythons don't just hunt by sight or smell or thermal sensory alone. It's a four part system and allows for one or more of the parts to not be functioning and still give the animal a chance at success.

They are truely amazing creatures.

-adam

Mendel...I'm sorry, and I speak for probably everyone else here....but what in the world are you talking about????? :)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Mendel...I'm sorry, and I speak for probably everyone else here....but what in the world are you talking about????? :)

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He's just doing that thing he does ... LOL ... I like it. :P

-adam

So let me get this straight... the Derma ball has sickle cell anemia? :fishslap:

Hehe...I like it too. I enjoy reading his thoughts.


And kudos for BP.net! Where else in the Internet herp world can you have a discussion about hybrids go on this long without needing a single curse word, flame, or moderator interference? You guys rock! :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

So let me get this straight... the Derma ball has sickle cell anemia? :fishslap:

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How long do you think before that makes it into a post on KS? :rolleye2: Gotta love the internet! :carrot:

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

So let me get this straight... the Derma ball has sickle cell anemia? :fishslap:

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You know that it doesnt have sickle cell...stop pulling my leg.

Anyway I was just saying that a gene that causes "disease" or "health" problems can also have beneifical effects for the population.....its about trade-offs......the allele that causes sickle cell anemina leads is essentailly lethal (without medical care) in its homozygous state....however, in its hetrozygous state it has advantages-increased resistance to malaria....this is why its maintained and prevalent in certain human populations....

The same logic can be applicable to any BP trait...maybe spinning (if true) has advantages.....maybe kinks, backflips, etc do too.....:)

What appears to be a disadvantage can often have hidden advantages.....and most biological systems have back-ups like Adam said...if one system fails it not such a bad thing because there are still other systems that can function in place of or compensate for it.....

Hope that is clearer to the main point I was trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

stop pulling my leg.

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You're kidding right?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Gene pools in the wild are never really pure and that's a good thing, Variety allows for natural selection.....an organism with the same set of alleles at all loci is one that is likely to go extinct .

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A good example of that is the cheetah population. They have become so genetically similiar that you can take skin graphs from one animal and it will take on another because the genetics are basically identical. The big fear is that one major illness/problem will wipe out the remaining animals. :rolleyes:

I never knew that about the sickle cell anemia and malaria. Interesting.

Finally those genetics classes pay off! Of course this is not the place I thought I'd be using them. ;) Well, I'll take what I can get. :giggle: :wuv:

Does anyone here have a link with a pic of this infamous "Derma Ball"?????...I'd like to check it out....:D

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Does anyone here have a link with a pic of this infamous "Derma Ball"?????...I'd like to check it out....:D

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http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/pp_c...&cat=10&page=1

Just curious, do no scales on the derma ball make it easier to be scratched/hurt when you feed it rats?

Personally I love this thread whether it heads off on a tangent or two. That's what a good full discussion often does. We relate issues with our own snakes or the breeding of snakes in general to our life experience or knowledge base.

Like Judy said, I'm so pleased and proud of our online community that manages to discuss some of these more "hot buttom" issues in a reasonable manner. :)

I think its like people kinda....
White ppl breed with Black ppl, and chinese with whatever...

Same idea I think!
If we can do it, why can't the snakes do it???? ;)

Just my :2cent:

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Originally Posted by Jonny2184

I think its like people kinda....
White ppl breed with Black ppl, and chinese with whatever...

Same idea I think!
If we can do it, why can't the snakes do it???? ;)

Just my :2cent:

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Um...you know that white, black, and chinese people are in fact the same species right? Mixed race children are not hybrids, lol......

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Um...you know that white, black, and chinese people are in fact the same species right? Mixed race children are not hybrids, lol......

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LOL, exactly! A better analogy would be like someone from Texas breeding someone from NY. Although I'm sure that particular cross is even genetically possible. :P

I have bred with plenty of someones from NY. It's totally possible :gj:

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Originally Posted by cueball

I have bred with plenty of someones from NY. It's totally possible :gj:

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Ah, but did you produce viable fertile offspring? And if so, what are Tex-yorks going for?

-Evan

Whoa.....that is a FREAKY lookin snake!!!!!...it almost doesn't look real!!!.......I don't think I like it though....I wouldn'y pat a dime for an animal like that....no offense, but for thirty thousand, I could go have a shopping spree at Adam's and get much better animals IMO.

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Originally Posted by Evan Jamison

Ah, but did you produce viable fertile offspring? And if so, what are Tex-yorks going for?

-Evan

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I sure hope not :bolt:

hmmm...I wonder if that would explain the "naked cowboy" phenomenon that was all the rage when I was down in NY last year....hmmm......

:halohorn:


naked:cowboy:= :eyepoppin in NY

naked:cowboy:=:tongue2: in TX


:P

it's kinda like the two headed critters who sometimes grace our planet and live for a short time. last year i read about a two headed (was it a snake or bearded dragon and it was living at a zoo.. they were selling it for loads of money... and someone out there will probably pay for the uniqueness of that critter.

my OB peacock cichlid is gorgeous. his bride is as well. some of the nicest aulo. species i've seen. but, because they are not accepted in the cichlid community as a 'true' species - they are not enjoyed by many people.

because in the cichlid community... pure lines are valued greatly.

just my 2 cents. (well with inflation it's 7 cents actually)

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

hmmm...I wonder if that would explain the "naked cowboy" phenomenon that was all the rage when I was down in NY last year....hmmm......

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That dude is still out there in his underwear strumming away daily!

yeah, my mom though he was good lookin, so i took a few pics of him for her.....I wasn't impressed as much though...If a guy has longer hair than me, not interested thanks.....I like my guys to have short hair.

i wouldnt personaly own a hybrid that couldnt possibly happen naturally ,natural hybrids im all for but snakes such as super balls for example just dont gel with me. but hey thats me
imo if people wants to own these snakes then it entirely upto them

Thanks for the re-direction JLC... a very well-behaved discussion going here. I think with the poll result that the ethical objectors are in the minority, so I'd like to redirect this thread a little (instead of starting a new one) and talk about hybrid projects to see what has been accomplished and educated guesses about what is possible and why. And if anyone would like to define 'species' in light of viable Superballs and the like I'd be very happy to see it!

My interests lie in the genetic possibilities and what viable hybrids can tell us about the genetics of the snakes (unless someone wants to fund a genome project?).

The Angolan Ball isn't that surprising... the parsimonious hypothesis of the recent geographical isolation of a shared ancestor that gave rise to these two species is quite plausible. Certainly the Superball is much more surprising on the evolutionary scale.

So here is what I know, please correct and add:
P.regiusxP.anchietae -> viable cross
P.regiusxP. curtus or breitensteini (both?) -> viable, breeds to both parents.
P.reticulatusxP.molurus bivittatus -> viable cross
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I'm guessing the larger members of the Python genus will show more compatability, but there just isn't a lot of interest in producing a larger, faster growing burm with Afrock tendancies :)

Maybe someone more in the know will be able to tell us, but it it possible the different short-tails or bloods are actually sub-species instead of separate species? I don't really consider sub-species crosses that fantastic of a thing, that's why they're sub-species! Certainly they deserve distinction, and I too would like to know what line my snakes are from... but for this discussion they really aren't that important.

Thanks!

Interesting!

Here's a wee bit on curtus you might like reading (though I don't know if it would enlighten much on the current topic):

systematics and biogeography of commercially harvested pythons (Python curtus group) in Southeast Asia

Thanks for the link! That is an interesting paper, and certainly presents data for further discussion. Their particular slant on conservation and resource management to distinguish the three as separate species certainly biases the hybrid discussion concerning the three snakes (hadn't realized there were three of them!), but strengthens the call for a definition of species when discussing these snakes. Also, their presentation of the unweighted bootstrap values on the phylogenetic tree (getting over anyone's head yet?) might bias its topology. Anyone care to discuss?

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Originally Posted by Dread

Thanks for the link! That is an interesting paper, and certainly presents data for further discussion. Their particular slant on conservation and resource management to distinguish the three as separate species certainly biases the hybrid discussion concerning the three snakes (hadn't realized there were three of them!), but strengthens the call for a definition of species when discussing these snakes. Also, their presentation of the unweighted bootstrap values on the phylogenetic tree (getting over anyone's head yet?) might bias its topology. Anyone care to discuss?

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I could be wrong...but I think you and Mendel's Balls will get along REALLY well! You guys speak the same language! :P

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

How about ... "I don't care" :D

-adam

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Ditto.


Some are beautiful and the species of snake are close, and some are ugly and two TOTALY diffrent species. Examples...

Burm X Ball= Uh uh!! Not a good hybrid. Of coarse none have bien produced (thank goodness) but its bien tried.

Yellow Ananconda X Green Anaconda= GREAT COMBO!! Closly related ,beautiful. One i would like to see more of.

IMO,:D

Maybe it would have been a good idea to start a different thread...

I'm not so much interested in value judgements of what would make the prettiest hybrids, particularly if we're going to write-off some without ever seeing them.

While I may agree that attempting a ballxburm hybrid would be risky (and probably unsuccessful), I won't write off something just because it's (potentially) ugly in someone's opinion.

And yes, I'm actually living with a blood relative of Gregor Mendel right now and finished my first degree in Biochemistry. So I hope Mendel's Balls joins the convo soon!

Is this a burm x ball hybrid?

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...6/burmball.bmp

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

Is this a burm x ball hybrid?

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...6/burmball.bmp

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Yup...

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Yup...

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That is so cool! I found that on yahoo images. I wonder what its adult size will be.

Holy snap!!!:O


I thought the genes didnt ketch!!!! Gotta bio on it?!:O :O

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Originally Posted by stangs13

Holy snap!!!:O


I thought the genes didnt ketch!!!! Gotta bio on it?!:O :O

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I wonder how the guy got them to breed...

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

Is this a burm x ball hybrid?

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...6/burmball.bmp

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Is this for real??? Here's what bothers me with this picture: It's albino! Does this mean the burm albino gene and the ball albino gene are compatible? Did someone really use a valuable albino bp in this sort of experiment??? OR...are there more than one generation already produced and raised to breeding maturity in order to produce a compatible albino-gene pairing? :confuzd: I'm not convinced of anything by this picture. :cool:

It looks more of an albino burm than an albino ball. BUT what I think happened was some idiot bred an albino burm to a normal ball, and bred back the het babies to the father and made these.

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Originally Posted by bpkid

It looks more of an albino burm than an albino ball. BUT what I think happened was some idiot bred an albino burm to a normal ball, and bred back the het babies to the father and made these.

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Well, that's what I was asking....which means there is an entire clutch/generation of mature burm/balls out there somewhere and no pictures? No story? :confused:

Are you sure that it isn't just a regular albino burm? I'm really not seeing anything too unusual about it.

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Originally Posted by RedDevil

Are you sure that it isn't just a regular albino burm? I'm really not seeing anything too unusual about it.

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The head looks like one of a Ball Python.

It would have to be an incredible wizard and photoshop to fake this snake picture. The facial scalation is definitely not a normal burm, though the pattern is very similar to an albino burm.

And in terms of risking a valuable albino ball python... if you have the time and resources and mind for investment, breeding a het or even an albino ball to a burm has a relatively low capital risk!

Also, it shouldn't be surprising that if progeny could be produced that the albinism trait would be located on the same locus (the traits are compatible). A very cool snake... but where's the story!?!