Pied-$$??

Vaughn,

Good point! For the small breeders it has to be about making contacts, treating people well and representing them and their snakes honestly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I am talking about the general people buying snakes, of course if you know someone personally or have had many contacts with them it would give the smaller breeder a chance.

If someone looked me up and saw no real feedback from me, didnt know me, and called me up, and decided they liked me.... there is little chance they would stil pay the exact same as they would to nerd... more likely they would try to haggle me down knowing that I would have a lot of trouble selling at the same price as them.

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I dont buy it. If someone wants a snake that you have produced, they can either pay your price or move on. Nobody should want to be known as a bargain basement shop for cheap snakes. I'll use Joe Compel as an example again (sorry Joe! :) ). Joe is a good guy, always willing to answer questions and has built an excellent reputation by being honest, having awesome animals and treating people well. I don't think he would classify himself as one of the big guys. I haven't seen him cut prices on his animals. He knows what they are worth and seems willing to wait it out and not dump animals at a low price just because he can.

another good bit of advice i've gotten from a good breeder friend is to always think ahead and have a plan/vision/goal not just for that year, but years ahead... lets say for example a breeder cuts their price way low like 30-40% of current market on a animal. the sell out, pocket some dough. what happens next year and the next? how low are you going to cut then? how much profit from the same morph then? how long will your investment make you want you want it to? the less money you bring in the less you have to work with to save,invest, buy more morphs and keep up with changing trends! just some food for thought:2cent:



vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

it will be very hard for new breeders to sell their snakes at the same price.

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I'm telling you that it's not! ... I was there ... 3 years ago NO ONE knew who 8 Ball Pythons was and I sold out of everything I produced at market price. The big guys had everything I had for sale, in larger numbers, at the same exact price. I am the living breathing proof that it can be done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Basically those larger breeders would have to sell out of their snakes before smaller breeders had a chance at the same price.

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Why do you think that? It just isn't true. Newer/smaller scale breeders can advertise more, respond to emails quicker, return phone calls faster, and generally give more time to potential customers than many of the big guys. There are a lot of people out there that like the personalized attention that newer/smaller scale breeders can give if they are hungry enough to be successful. You can compete with the big breeders price wise if you're willing to bust your hump and put in the work ... I've done it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

That being said, you list your snakes at a given price, but do you ever sell for less than you list? To work with someone, to help someone out, etc? I don't think you would lower your price just to make a quick buck, but Im sure you would lower it under other circumstances? (someone buys multiples, etc)

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Of course I do. I am very good to return customers and I give discounts on large packages ... I've even given morphs away for free practically to friends that are just getting started in the hobby. But there is a big difference between discount merchandise to reward a good customer and advertising animals well below market value because you don't have the business sense or work ethic to compete with other breeders. Anyone can put a low price tag on a product and make a little money ... a professional business person sells their product at market value by using their skill and work ethic to make ALL of the money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I just think it is wrong to use a blanket statement saying that everyone who sells under market price, is trying to make a quick buck, is lazy, etc (if I misread this please let me know).

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Again, not what I said. There is a big difference between discounting a market price and selling at below market prices. One is a standard business practice, the other is a quick way to shorten the lifespan of this industry.

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

not losing packages

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I've had more packages lost or delayed with Delta in the 10 years I've been shipping snakes than all other carries combined.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

at least offering some kind of insurance

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What good is insurance that never pays out. In the 10 years I've been selling and shipping snakes in this industry, I've only heard of one person getting a delta claim reimbursed. And that was because their box was crushed and had tire tracks on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

and other stories that would make me more likely to ship through delta than through my local fed-ex guy who likes to play basketball with my packages :)

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And you think that Delta employees care more about packages than FedEx employees? .... I jerk is a jerk is a jerk ... they work at FedEx and spin your boxes, Delta and throw your animals in the wrong cargo hold, and Burger King and spit on your food. That's life.

Ship a couple hundred snakes and get back to me ... I promise you you'll see things completely different. ;)

-adam

Wait a second, Burger King is spitting on my food? How do you have this inside knowledge?

Ok I'm satisfied with all of the answers given so far... I really do NOT know enough about this to be making a good argument. If small breeders can get the same amount as large breeders, then I agree, I see no reason why they shouldnt sell at the same price, and that undercutting would be the wrong way to go.

Quote:

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Again, not what I said. There is a big difference between discounting a market price and selling at below market prices. One is a standard business practice, the other is a quick way to shorten the lifespan of this industry.

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Point taken, thanks for re-wording it for me, I get it now.

Cool! Good discussion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've had more packages lost or delayed with Delta in the 10 years I've been shipping snakes than all other carries combined.



What good is insurance that never pays out. In the 10 years I've been selling and shipping snakes in this industry, I've only heard of one person getting a delta claim reimbursed. And that was because their box was crushed and had tire tracks on it.



And you think that Delta employees care more about packages than FedEx employees? .... I jerk is a jerk is a jerk ... they work at FedEx and spin your boxes, Delta and throw your animals in the wrong cargo hold, and Burger King and spit on your food. That's life.

Ship a couple hundred snakes and get back to me ... I promise you you'll see things completely different. ;)

-adam

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Thanks! It always helps to get multiple perspectives. I agree, I am not one to speak on this matter as anything I've heard I've gotten second hand. I've never shipped a snake Delta.... Ive received snakes Delta, UPS, and Fedex, and theyve all been fine.

I have however shipped a LOT of Computers and hardware via USPS, UPS, and Fed Ex, and USPS and Fed-Ex consistantly damaged stuff, grrr.... I think fragile sticker means "PUNT ME!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I do think the system is flawed in thinking everyone must and should price themselves equal.

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Well, actually I don't think that's what I said.

What I said, was there is no reason for a new breeder with no rep to price their animals any differently than the big breeders. Market value is market value no matter who you are. A snake isn't worth less because you're not known, sellers just put less value on them because they lack the confidence or ability to sell them.

If a big breeder is getting 5K for a snake, there's no reason why you can't either ... you just have to put in the work.

I've never said that anyone should price high or that they MUST do anything. Who I am to even suggest that … I can’t get my paid employees to listen to me let alone the entire ball python industry ... I just try and point out that the people that automatically lower their price on a morph just because it's a new breeding season instead of raising prices on their older animals, or the people that list their animals for sale 20% less than "big breeders" because they are afraid to compete with them directly are, in my opinion, hurting the market for everyone.

All prices are going to come down eventually, but if there is a market at the prices big breeders are setting and smaller guys/gals are setting lower prices for no other reason than they can't figure out any other way to move their animals, the smaller guys/gals are putting an unnatural downward pressure on the morph price. The big breeders are telling everyone that this is price support at 2.5K or 5K or whatever because that's what their customers are paying!! ... For the smaller guys/gals to put that downward pressure on prices before those buyers dry up shortens the overall lifespan of the market. I've seen some guys knock YEARS off of a certain morph because they "needed to sell" ... "have tax bills" ... "need to make room" ... it's INSANE!!! ... Screw me and my customers because you have no idea how to manage your money and run a business? .... Thanks pal!

Can it be fixed? Absolutely not ... losers are losers and you can't avoid them ... Can I complain about it ... You bet your @$$ I can! :soapbx:

:sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

If small breeders can get the same amount as large breeders, then I agree, I see no reason why they shouldnt sell at the same price, and that undercutting would be the wrong way to go.

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If all the small breeder is going to do is throw a picture up on a classified ad and wait for the money to pour in then of course they're not going to be able to compete with an established breeder.

You have to put in the work! ... Market, advertise, sell! ... Read books on ad design, sales campaigns ... audit a marketing class at a local college ... become a student of business ... become a professional. Anyone can produce snakes ... anyone can make a couple of bucks ... it takes dedication and hard work to create a profitable business that can last for the long haul.

One last small example ... Every Friday is Chinese food day at 8 Ball Pythons ... we head down to the local strip mall and load up ... I usually get a Mandarin Chicken platter for $5.50 ... the place has been there forever and the food is excellent! ... The other day, we noticed that a new place opened up ... first day ... so we decided to check them out ... being a creature of habit I ordered ... you guessed it ... Mandarin Chicken ... guess what? ... It was $5.50!! ... If the Chinese food biz was like the ball python biz, I could have gotten that lunch platter for $2 because the new place wasn't "known" .... maybe I should have pleaded my case to the owner .... LOL

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I have however shipped a LOT of Computers and hardware via USPS, UPS, and Fed Ex, and USPS and Fed-Ex consistantly damaged stuff, grrr.... I think fragile sticker means "PUNT ME!"

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The uniform they wear isn't going to make a difference. If you're box is going to get kicked, it's just going to happen.

The key is to learn how to pack the box so that your animals survive the trip ... then nothing else matters. ;)

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The uniform they wear isn't going to make a difference. If you're box is going to get kicked, it's just going to happen.

The key is to learn how to pack the box so that your animals survive the trip ... then nothing else matters. ;)

-adam

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I think bolting on spikes pointing outwards all around the box, with a handle attached should prevent the punting maybe....

One last small example ... Every Friday is Chinese food day at 8 Ball Pythons ... we head down to the local strip mall and load up ... I usually get a Mandarin Chicken platter for $5.50 ... the place has been there forever and the food is excellent! ... The other day, we noticed that a new place opened up ... first day ... so we decided to check them out ... being a creature of habit I ordered ... you guessed it ... Mandarin Chicken ... guess what? ... It was $5.50!! ... If the Chinese food biz was like the ball python biz, I could have gotten that lunch platter for $2 because the new place wasn't "known" .... maybe I should have pleaded my case to the owner .... LOL


uhh, can we make a few sat. chinese days?
general tso's, dumplings and eggrolls:tongue2: :hungry: :worship:



vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kavmon

uhh, can we make a few sat. chinese days?

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For sure! ... and I promise we won't drive an hour to get there. :sweeet:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Why should we expect Jimmy with his breeding group of Albinos that he bought from breeder "A" price those same snakes at the same price tag as breeder "A"?

Any thoughts?

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Actually ... yes (SHOCKER!!! :P ).

We should expect Jimmy to price those snakes the same because he has a fiduciary responsibility to his customers (e.g. investors). Unless Jimmy is only selling his offspring into the pet trade, his customers are likely buying animals from him with the intention of breeding them, selling the offspring, and making a few dollars. It might take them 3 - 4 years to get there. By Jimmy creating unnatural downward pressure on the price of the morphs or hets that he's selling by selling them for less than their true market value, Jimmy is decreasing his customers potential return on their investment. They could potentially make 75% less on the first offspring that they bring to market because Jimmy sold cheaper than the big breeders that are trying to milk every last nickel out of the market so that their customers have a chance at making some real money one day.

Does Jimmy care? Of course not.

Can anything be done about Jimmy? Well, other than praying that he hooks up with a smoking hot silly that hates his snakes, of course not.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well, actually I don't think that's what I said.

-adam

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I wasn't at all referring to what anyones claims, I was just trying to make a point that not everyone breeding snakes is looking at this as a business or long term investment. Not every person with a pair of snakes is looking at this with this same view or is going in the same direction.

I agree 100% that breeders expecting to sell as a business should try to price their products, services and/or snakes at certain price tags based on the demands at the time. They should try and sell themselves and not just cheap snakes.

Why sell a snake for $1000 when you could get $2000? But like I said, not everyone will see it this way. They may see it as "I just made $1000" and not "I could've made $2000".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why do you think that? It just isn't true. Newer/smaller scale breeders can advertise more, respond to emails quicker, return phone calls faster, and generally give more time to potential customers than many of the big guys. There are a lot of people out there that like the personalized attention that newer/smaller scale breeders can give if they are hungry enough to be successful. You can compete with the big breeders price wise if you're willing to bust your hump and put in the work ... I've done it! adam

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That speaks volumes. I buy, I have ???'s, you have the time for me, I buy from you again and again. It's business folks. Treat it as such. Very good points Adam.:sweeet:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I was just trying to make a point that not everyone breeding snakes is looking at this as a business or long term investment.

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Those people usually don't last long and aren't signifigant enough to have any sort of impact on the market. They usually just end up dealing back to the person they bought from and stay pretty much under the radar.

-adam

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Originally Posted by ARamos8

That speaks volumes. I buy, I have ???'s, you have the time for me, I buy from you again and again. It's business folks. Treat it as such. Very good points Adam.:sweeet:

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Just an example of customer service as it sort of relates to this discussion or parts of it. The company I work for provides data backup services. We are probably the most expensive in the industry. But there is a reason why 90% of our customers are referrals. We provide the best customer service in the industry. While the big guys sell you the product and leave you to sink or swim, we hand hold throughout the install process and manually check every customers backups each day. Our customers know they can go with our competitors for half the price, but they stay with us for service.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I've even given morphs away for free practically to friends that are just getting started in the hobby.

-adam

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I'll take a pair of lessers, a trio of ghosts, and a pair of caramels...you have the address, call before you ship! :fest2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gecko Den

I'll take a pair of lessers, a trio of ghosts, and a pair of caramels...you have the address, call before you ship! :fest2:

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You've gotten enough for free! ... My mom says HI!! :groinkick

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually ... yes (SHOCKER!!! :P ).

Does Jimmy care? Of course not.

Can anything be done about Jimmy? Well, other than praying that he hooks up with a smoking hot silly that hates his snakes, of course not.

-adam

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This was my next point, does Jimmy even care about the market or his customers investment in 3-4-5yrs?

The real question is, will buyers be pissed at Jimmy for his 1/2 priced snakes being sold from his bedroom? Do you really think the public in general would be upset if they could buy an Albino BP for $500 or less? I know to some breeders the thought of this is worse than death, but is it so bad for that guy who saw that Albino at $5000, but couldn't afford it?

Would anyone honestly be upset if someone sold them a perfectly healthy, feeding Pied male for $2000 and actually delivered a perfectly healthy feeding Pied male as promised? Or would you absolutely insist on paying the balance of $3000 when you received the snake? This question is not aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just curious.

Adam is offering a sale on 06 Albinos...$750 Shipped!
Just for the month of April! $750 Shipped!

How many of us would be upset at Adam for dumping compared to how many of us would be putting $750 on that Visa or MasterCard? Adam, put me down for 2.5!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

You've gotten enough for free! ... My mom says HI!! :groinkick

-adam

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Fine, I'll pay for shipping...:P

Give your mom a hug for me. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

How many of us would be upset at Adam for dumping compared to how many of us would be putting $750 on that Visa or MasterCard? Adam, put me down for 2.5!

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with that thinking i could buy the 2.5 from you at 300 a piece right? lol i'd be pissed, try spending a couple years cleaning and feeding to see a project dumped! you can always make more money, time you can't get back!


vaughn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Breeder "B", we'll call him "Jimmy".
Just turned 18yrs old, not a care in the world, living at home with his parents. No responsibility except his part time job at PetCo to pay for the insurance and gas on his Mustang daddy helped him buy last year. Jimmy goes ahead and buys a group of 4-5 100% Het females and 1-2 Albinos from breeder "A" for $7500 at market value.

Why should we expect Jimmy with his breeding group of Albinos that he bought from breeder "A" price those same snakes at the same price tag as breeder "A"?

All Jimmy has to worry about is the RodentPro bill every two months for under $100 and his initial ROI. He makes his ROI with his 2nd clutch even at 1/2 price of breeder "A". Jimmy won't pay taxes on his sales either! Jimmy can sell that same Albino for 1/2 the price of breeder "A" and probably clear more on the same sale! Jimmy just made about the same if not more $$$ selling those snakes at 1/2 the market value than he would make all year at his part time as PetCo.

Jimmy doesn't really see this as losing $1000 per snake, he sees it as making $1000 per snake!

Any thoughts?

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Good for Jimmy, when he sells his estimated 12 Albinos that he produces he is out of the game for the rest of the year, that leaves 5000+ other people wanting Albinos that Jimmy doesn't have, congratulations to the people that got Jimmy's cheap snakes, see ya next year Jimmy.....:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

This was my next point, does Jimmy even care about the market or his customers investment in 3-4-5yrs?

The real question is, will buyers be pissed at Jimmy for his 1/2 priced snakes being sold from his bedroom? Do you really think the public in general would be upset if they could buy an Albino BP for $500 or less? I know to some breeders the thought of this is worse than death, but is it so bad for that guy who saw that Albino at $5000, but couldn't afford it?

Would anyone honestly be upset if someone sold them a perfectly healthy, feeding Pied male for $2000 and actually delivered a perfectly healthy feeding Pied male as promised? Or would you absolutely insist on paying the balance of $3000 when you received the snake? This question is not aimed at anyone in particular, I'm just curious.

Adam is offering a sale on 06 Albinos...$750 Shipped!
Just for the month of April! $750 Shipped!

How many of us would be upset at Adam for dumping compared to how many of us would be putting $750 on that Visa or MasterCard? Adam, put me down for 2.5!

---

I don't fault any buyer for getting a deal. Everyone likes a deal. Do you really believe that when I invest in animals I don't try and get the best price that I can? That's just smart business. Buy low, sell high ... people have made fortunes that way.

It's a double edged sword, you want to get the best price, but you also want to support the market and make sure the prices stay high enough year over year for all of us to still be doing this in 25 years if we want to. I balance my buy low and sell high conundrum by trying to put "new money" into the market each year ... lots of breeders just trade or buy new animals with "snake" money, but I feel that injecting a certain about of "new dollars" each year is me doing my part to strengthen the market.

I do feel sorry for the buyers that get that "great deal" from Jimmy only to find that when they are producing snakes and hoping to use some of that money towards the mortgage or to buy school shoes for their kids that Jimmy is still at it, selling animals 30% less than they are.

And FWIW, by the time albinos are $750 each, I won't be selling them anymore ... By that time, my customers that have bought hets over the years will be in full swing with albino production, and I will gladly get out of the way so that they can make some sales. I believe in helping that people that put their faith in me.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gecko Den

see ya next year Jimmy.....:)

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Jimmy would be a popular guy at Daytona. :P

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gecko Den

Good for Jimmy, when he sells his estimated 12 Albinos that he produces he is out of the game for the rest of the year, that leaves 5000+ other people wanting Albinos that Jimmy doesn't have, congratulations to the people that got Jimmy's cheap snakes, see ya next year Jimmy.....:)

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Right answer!!
I hear and read about breeders sending hate mail and threats to others selling for less than they are. IMO, just let these guys sell out, once he's done chances are there will still be buyers wanting to buy and will happily pay your asking price.

If it takes a few months, you've got an older snake possibly worth more! :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

It's a double edged sword, you want to get the best price, but you also want to support the market and make sure the prices stay high enough year over year for all of us to still be doing this in 25 years if we want to. I balance my buy low and sell high conundrum by trying to put "new money" into the market each year ... lots of breeders just trade or buy new animals with "snake" money, but I feel that injecting a certain about of "new dollars" each year is me doing my part to strengthen the market.

And FWIW, by the time albinos are $750 each, I won't be selling them anymore ... By that time, my customers that have bought hets over the years will be in full swing with albino production, and I will gladly get out of the way so that they can make some sales. I believe in helping that people that put their faith in me.

-adam

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This is the difference between a solid breeder Vs those just in it for the quick buck! This is what you want to look for in a breeder when purchasing investment quality snakes for your breeding stock, not the Easter Sale Weekend Special.

Now can I have those Albinos for $750?

Wow, this thread really took off.

A few thoughts... I think your Chinese food analogy was a bit off, Adam. I think a more reasonable analogy would be the electronics market. Prices always start out high, the companies doing the R&D sell high until the little companies start mass producing them and eventually people are buying $20 DVD players at Walmart. Being a breeder, you have a choice of being a low cost Chinese manufacturer, someone selling at the flea market, or a high end company catering to people that want a name, quality, etc.

I think it's kind of counterproductive to get too upset over people selling low, though. I doubt if 90% of the people getting into this really put the time and thought into running their own business more than setting up a website and posting ads on KS. I think a lot of people jumping into this market get into it because they either like raising snakes, or the have a hard time seeing past the dollar signs. Either way, there are a lot of those people out there and I think you just have to take that into consideration when developing your business strategy. The nice thing about Balls, though, is that there seems to be a huge amount of morphs and combos to work with so even a little guy can market a nice high end model to the discriminating consumer. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

A few thoughts... I think your Chinese food analogy was a bit off, Adam. I think a more reasonable analogy would be the electronics market. Prices always start out high, the companies doing the R&D sell high until the little companies start mass producing them and eventually people are buying $20 DVD players at Walmart. Being a breeder, you have a choice of being a low cost Chinese manufacturer, someone selling at the flea market, or a high end company catering to people that want a name, quality, etc.

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The root of my Chinese food analogy is that there is no standard business practice where new players come into the market automatically undercutting the established players to compete. Yes, there will always be the recreational breeders, the wholesalers, and the swap meet guys ... but the people that want to make the investments, get into the so called "ball game", just don't need to do that in my humble opinion and if they do operate that way, they’re not helping anyone.

The problem with your analogy is that the ball python market hasn't gotten anywhere near the little company mass production phase. If you want to use the electronics market, how about plasma TV's ... Say Sony was the first company to bring the plasma TV to market (I'm guessing here, so help me if I'm wrong) ... the price is uber ridiculous ... like $15,000.00 for a 42 inch model ... Hitachi, Pioneer, Panasonic all rush to get their plasma TV's out ... Do they price their 42 inch models at $8,000.00??? ... H@ll no they don't ... they all went for about the same price. As time went on prices came down, but they all stayed pretty much comparable ... then the technology goes low end, is mass produced and everyone can afford it.

I see the ball python world right now as the early days of plasma TV ... the "players" are established and being established ... there's no need to have huge differences in prices because the sellers still have a good hold on the market … or at least they can if the people that are getting in don’t let go of it.

Once pastels, albinos, and pieds start showing up in PetCo ... well then I'll give you your $20.00 Wal-Mart scenario ... but using your example as a "company doing R&D" right now I think it's my duty to the people that I've sold investment animals to to keep those days as far off as I can.

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Once pastels, albinos, and pieds start showing up in PetCo ... well then I'll give you your $20.00 Wal-Mart scenario ... but using your example as a "company doing R&D" right now I think it's my duty to the people that I've sold investment animals to to keep those days as far off as I can.

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I wasn't saying that's where the market is right now, but that's where it is ultimately headed and it would be wise to plan for it. In the mean time, you're just banging your head against the wall worrying about the odd guy that got his hands on a Lavendar Albino and is selling them at half market value. There will always be those guys out there and they will make some impact to the market, but there's really not much you can do about it. (well, besides educate the odd forum lurker reading these threads)

Okay, there I go with my laid back Californian attitude again. No wonder we piss off the rest of the country.:peace:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I wasn't saying that's where the market is right now, but that's where it is ultimately headed and it would be wise to plan for it.

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Absolutely ... I promise you, my business plan is a good one. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

In the mean time, you're just banging your head against the wall worrying about the odd guy that got his hands on a Lavendar Albino and is selling them at half market value. There will always be those guys out there and they will make some impact to the market, but there's really not much you can do about it. (well, besides educate the odd forum lurker reading these threads)

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I'm not worried about the odd guy out ... like I said, that kind of stuff is going to be there ... Just like Sony doesn't worry about a stolen shipment of plasmas being off loaded in an alley effecting market price.

What does concern me is the trend in the hobby/business for people to "jump in", invest lots of money that they probably can't afford to invest, and then dump all over the prices in order to turn it around as fast as they can. I'm on the phone at least 3 times a week with hard working people that have spent money on ball morphs and are "doing it right" but are worried about how fast some prices are coming down. The truth is, that prices don't have to come down that fast in all cases.

The thing I've been harping on over and over in this thread is that people getting in should realize that they can keep their prices at the same level as the "big guys" and make money ... that's all. The longer and higher prices stay, the longer it's going to take for that mass market phase to hit and the longer people are going to see good returns on their investments year after year. If each year prices drop "just because", that just shortens the lifespan of this very very cool hobby/business/industry or whatever you want to call it. Chess not checkers!

I'm not trying to dictate market prices or threaten people or throw temper tantrums ... not my style ... but I think what I can do is try and educate as many people that will listen and hopefully generate some understanding that for the people that are looking at ball pythons as a side income to help fund a vacation each year or pay for some extra presents over the holidays, this can be a sustainable long term thing. You just have to play your cards right, work hard, and hang in there ... your business will do well if you act like a business. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Okay, there I go with my laid back Californian attitude again. No wonder we piss off the rest of the country.:peace:

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We love that laid back California attitude!! ... Makes you seem like one of the only sane people on the board! :P :banana:

-adam

Even if the price did go down many fold, those people who are "doing it right" will still make a good profit, it just might take longer. If they have a plan, and understand the chance of the market going down, then it shouldn't worry them or take them by surprise right?

I've been thinking about a lot of issues raised in this thread being that Mike and I are at the beginning steps of all of this.

Thinking about Adam's words about working, marketing, etc. Who am I in this world of NERD and VPI...I'm a nobody. Why would you buy a snake from me at any price? Well hopefully if I work hard, show participation on boards, phone calls to others, network my butt off at shows, take great care of our collection and produce healthy babies, make my prices competitive but not yard sale, take the time to learn how to ship safely and stand by my animals even if I take a loss on one or two....maybe just maybe somebody will think my snakes are a good investment or a damn fine pet. I'm not going to get rich quick. Maybe I'm never going to get anything more than a family vacation or a bit of cash for a better mini-van but I am going to know that I did the work, I did it ethically and in the end I did it because I love ball pythons and want to make more of them for others to love and invest in.

Another thought. Mike and I don't invest in anything, ball pythons or whatever, if we can't afford to take the loss, even if it hurts. We don't go to a casino with our rent money. We don't buy snakes instead of groceries. Extreme examples but what I'm attempting to say is if you over-invest, thinking to get rich quick, without doing the hard slow work up front, expect to take some business losses, trying to jump years ahead of what you can realistically do...I think you risk a lot and you are going to end up either failing or dumping a lot of snakes on the market due to short term financial panic.

In the end it's been said over and over. There are no shortcuts in this world of BP's. I don't know much but I do know this.....it's about passion for the snakes, it's about cleaning up years of snake crap, it's about hours of research, it's about worry and crunching numbers, learning about ovulation as much as about business and marketing, about welcoming newcomers on a forum and shaking your head over some of them, hours on the phone and hours pondering if you've lost your mind...

but if it isn't also about hours of joy and wonder over the snakes...well...I'm not buying from you and you shouldn't buy from me.

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Even if the price did go down many fold, those people who are "doing it right" will still make a good profit, it just might take longer. If they have a plan, and understand the chance of the market going down, then it shouldn't worry them or take them by surprise right?

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Why do you believe that a person that prices their animals the same as the big breeders will take longer to make a good profit than someone that drops their prices? This is chess not checkers.

Have you ever sold anything before? Any sales professional will tell you, it's about the quality of the sale not the quantity. Dropping prices in order to make money by doing a volume business usually results in customers that don't care about you or your animals ... they just want the best deal ... they do the deal and they are gone forever. Holding your prices and focusing on individual quality deals one by one allows you to build relationships with your customers. It allows you to get to know the individual needs of who you are selling to. When those people are ready to invest more money, they'll be back. The customers that are buying cheap may come back to you, they may not ... it depends on where the best deal is.

If you're only looking to sell snakes for a season or two and then get out, well of course selling cheap and blowing out all of your inventory quick is probably not a bad idea. But, if you're looking to start a business selling snakes that is going to last 5, 10 ,15+ years with a large established base of existing customers that keep coming back year after year ... you're going to have to focus on quality sales, not quantity.

Look at breeders like BHB and Reptile Industries ... they sell huge numbers of high end ball pythons every year without a website, advertising, or even a single post on the internet. How do they do that? The do it because they started out focusing on quality sales and over the years built up a customer base that is so passionate that they spread the word about the business to all of their friends and people they meet and they keep coming back year after year.

10 years from now, do you want to be sitting behind a computer every day pounding away posting ads on kingsnake desperately trying to move your product or do you want to be sitting back listening to the phone ring and not even having to worry about ads? .... The difference is quanity sales vs. QUALITY sales. ;)

There's a good book that really explains it well called "High Trust Selling" by Todd Duncan. It explains how to make more money in less time with less stress by focusing on quality over quantity. It's worth a read by anyone considering selling snakes.

As far as having a plan, it's a must for every business. The SBA estimates that 98% of businesses started without a business plan fail. Of course market prices are going to come down over time, but with a good business plan in hand, it doesn't matter because the plan will detail the actions you're going to take when certain animals get to certain price points and how your business will adapt in order to remain profitable.

For example ... 5 years ago my business plan had a section about pastels that forecasted production numbers and sales estimates. My current business plan doesn't have the word pastel anywhere in it unless it's used in conjunction with another morph (ie. super pastel, lesser pastel, lavendar pastel, etc) .... My business plan helps my business adapt to an ever changing market.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Why do you believe that a person that prices their animals the same as the big breeders will take longer to make a good profit than someone that drops their prices? This is chess not checkers.

Have you ever sold anything before? Any sales professional will tell you, it's about the quality of the sale not the quantity. Dropping prices in order to make money by doing a volume business usually results in customers that don't care about you or your animals ... they just want the best deal ... they do the deal and they are gone forever. Holding your prices and focusing on individual quality deals one by one allows you to build relationships with your customers. It allows you to get to know the individual needs of who you are selling to. When those people are ready to invest more money, they'll be back. The customers that are buying cheap may come back to you, they may not ... it depends on where the best deal is.

If you're only looking to sell snakes for a season or two and then get out, well of course selling cheap and blowing out all of your inventory quick is probably not a bad idea. But, if you're looking to start a business selling snakes that is going to last 5, 10 ,15+ years with a large established base of existing customers that keep coming back year after year ... you're going to have to focus on quality sales, not quantity.

Look at breeders like BHB and Reptile Industries ... they sell huge numbers of high end ball pythons every year without a website, advertising, or even a single post on the internet. How do they do that? The do it because they started out focusing on quality sales and over the years built up a customer base that is so passionate that they spread the word about the business to all of their friends and people they meet and they keep coming back year after year.

10 years from now, do you want to be sitting behind a computer every day pounding away posting ads on kingsnake desperately trying to move your product or do you want to be sitting back listening to the phone ring and not even having to worry about ads? .... The difference is quanity sales vs. QUALITY sales. ;)

There's a good book that really explains it well called "High Trust Selling" by Todd Duncan. It explains how to make more money in less time with less stress by focusing on quality over quantity. It's worth a read by anyone considering selling snakes.

As far as having a plan, it's a must for every business. The SBA estimates that 98% of businesses started without a business plan fail. Of course market prices are going to come down over time, but with a good business plan in hand, it doesn't matter because the plan will detail the actions you're going to take when certain animals get to certain price points and how your business will adapt in order to remain profitable.

For example ... 5 years ago my business plan had a section about pastels that forecasted production numbers and sales estimates. My current business plan doesn't have the word pastel anywhere in it unless it's used in conjunction with another morph (ie. super pastel, lesser pastel, lavendar pastel, etc) .... My business plan helps my business adapt to an ever changing market.

-adam

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I was trying to address the concerns of the people you said kept calling you about prices dropping, not argue the point that I think it would take longer... this was the hypothetical if the real, actual, market price was dropping, it would take them longer, but not much, IE It shouldnt really be a concern for them.

sorry if i wasnt clear

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I wasn't saying that's where the market is right now, but that's where it is ultimately headed and it would be wise to plan for it.

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The way most will plan for this drop or take advantage of the drop is to produce more quantity. Today's Super Pastel is $9,000, a few years from now $5000. Will this mean less people will be buying Supers or more? I'd say more people will pay $5000 and a lot more will pay $2000 and even more $1000. As prices go down, the guy who got in at $10K and only produces one clutch with 1-2 Supers may be upset, but what about the guy who got in and has prepped 20 Pastels and drops 18 clutches and knocks out 20 Supers?

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Even if the price did go down many fold, those people who are "doing it right" will still make a good profit, it just might take longer. If they have a plan, and understand the chance of the market going down, then it shouldn't worry them or take them by surprise right?

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It's not that it may take longer, as prices go down some breeders will account for this and produce more.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Absolutely ... I promise you, my business plan is a good one.

I'm not worried about the odd guy out ... like I said, that kind of stuff is going to be there ... Just like Sony doesn't worry about a stolen shipment of plasmas being off loaded in an alley effecting market price.

What does concern me is the trend in the hobby/business for people to "jump in", invest lots of money that they probably can't afford to invest, and then dump all over the prices in order to turn it around as fast as they can.

The thing I've been harping on over and over in this thread is that people getting in should realize that they can keep their prices at the same level as the "big guys" and make money ... that's all. The longer and higher prices stay, the longer it's going to take for that mass market phase to hit and the longer people are going to see good returns on their investments year after year. If each year prices drop "just because", that just shortens the lifespan of this very very cool hobby/business/industry or whatever you want to call it. Chess not checkers!

-adam

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I agree that the odd guy out there with a pair of Hets won't make much of a dent. What is worrisome is the guy who just mortgaged his house, or withdrew his 401K or just had the cash from other ventures to buy up a dozen of this, a dozen of that, two dozen of this and 100 normal females and just sit on them. A few years from now, a few of these breeders producing 100 of this, 100 of that, 50 of this, 50 of that and selling at 25-50% less just because they can and still turn a profit, can hurt the market for others! Or are they just focused on selling at a different tier in the market?

I'm not comparing snakes to Wal-Mart or a power drill, but now that we're talking business. Would you consider Wal-Mart a bad business model?

I see this like Sears and Kmart being pissed at Wal-Mart because they sold for less, was Sam Walton so wrong? Sears sales were about $40B in 05, Kmart about $30B, Wal-Mart sales last year about $230B. Instead of making a $10.00 profit on a certain product, Wal-Mart said I'll sell 10 at $1.00 profit margin. Did the formula fail?

Wal-Mart is probably one of the most hated companies on earth according to some. They've closed down hundreds if not thousands of mom and pop shops along with some large companies and manufactures in the US. They've taken away thousands of middle to high paying jobs from the US to import cheaper goods, sure they employ over a million, but most of them are at minimum wage!

So how is it Wal-Mart is the largest company on the planet? Are they the oldest? Were they here 1st? Did they compete dollar for dollar with their competitors?

They must've done something right, by any comparison Wal-Mart is considered the most successful company in the world. Burdines, Macy's and even Target don't want to be compared to Wal-Mart and try extremely hard to separate themselves from it, but while their sales are stagnant or going downward, while other companies are laying off thousands….Wal-Mart opened another 1000 stores and sold another $50B.

Don't get me wrong guys!
Example: I definitely don't want to see 06 Albino Boas being sold for $500 on KS by 10-20 breeders in a few months, while I planned on pricing them at $800-$1000.

Will anyone care that I paid 3X's that a few years back only to see the price drop down to $500? Should I be upset because I paid 3X's that, should I kick myself for not waiting a few year and saved? If I do see prices drop, what can I do about it? Blame someone? About what?

You gotta love this thread and website members, it's been very civilized even with the hot topics discussed and opinions voiced. :D

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Originally Posted by ssscales

You gotta love this thread and website members, it's been very civilized even with the hot topics discussed and opinions voiced. :D

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Amen to that! All you guys have been awesome and an example to the rest of the Internet community out there about how to carry on such a discussion! :colbert2:

I've learned more from this discussion than from hours and hours on other message boards. Great job guys!

The reality is there is not a whole lot anyone can do about the price drops, cut throats, etc. What's tangable is a realistic business plan that will allow for / compensate for such an event to take place regardless of the product being sold. Whether you adopt the break even method or have a standard % of a markup to handle your overhead, adhearing to the plan will prevail all. The test of time (raising the girls) for some is a tuff pill to swallow if your intentions for the game (again) are not realistic. By the same token, if there were 100 or 500 Jimmy's out there doing the same and the prices are impacted just remember to see rule #1. Your Realistic Business Plan.:D

If ever the time should come that I will need to add an addition or build a small facility to house herps I would focus my time and energy on what it is I have to do over the next few years (even if I bump into Jimmy at Daytona:groinkick) to possibly expand the collection and maintain / grow the trust that's got me this far. It's obvious to me that if I get to this point "the business plan" is working as designed regardless of Jimmy, price drops, etc.... Folks are looking to the next big morph as I. My contributions to the market may not be worth writing a book about, but it will be at the very least a consistant one via purchases, trades, partnered projects, etc.

:2cent:

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I agree that the odd guy out there with a pair of Hets won't make much of a dent. What is worrisome is the guy who just mortgaged his house, or withdrew his 401K or just had the cash from other ventures to buy up a dozen of this, a dozen of that, two dozen of this and 100 normal females and just sit on them. A few years from now, a few of these breeders producing 100 of this, 100 of that, 50 of this, 50 of that and selling at 25-50% less just because they can and still turn a profit, can hurt the market for others! Or are they just focused on selling at a different tier in the market?

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I think that home equity loan breeders and the 401k babies use the amount of $$$ that they've invested to make it look like they know what they're talking about with their large high dollar collections and when they price their animals as if they don't have a clue, they are capable of creating an uncertainty in the market that ripples down to the smaller guys and generally makes them nervous.

Guy "A" that spent his holiday bonus 2 years ago on a cinnamon pastel for 15K finally got the animal to breed and is sitting on 3 clutches ... 18 eggs total ... he's done his homework, talked to the big breeders, and learned that people are buying cinnies at 5K. He's planning roughly on producing 9 cinnies, selling 4 to re-coup his initial investment like he promised his wife and put a little extra in his pocket. The other 5 is a keep some trade some deal and "A" is excited.

Then one day "A" is reading the kingsnake classified and sees an ad by our old friend Jimmy. Turns out, Jimmy borrowed some money from his parents and has a website (kind of crummy, but more than "A" has) with what seems like every morph under the sun on it ... worst part, Jimmy is selling his cinnies for $2.5!! .... "A" thinks to himself "cr@p!!" ... He doesn't know that Jimmy is a kid, he thinks that Jimmy is a new up and comer looking to make his stake ... "A" start freaking out ... 2.5???? ... How's he going to compete ... so "A" screws up ... He lists his cinnies for 2.5K because he really needs to get his initial investment back to make his wife happy.

Jimmy and "A" both sell all of their cinnies ... Jimmy is happy ... no taxes, no rent, no bills ... just him and the little 19 year old hottie he met last weekend. "A" is happy too ... kind of ... He made his 15K back, but after food bills, shipping costs, paying taxes, and the new racks he bought to house the babies he's actually still in the hole 6K with only 2 cinnies left that he can't get more than 2.5K for because that's what he's been listing them at all summer ... maybe next year "A". ;)

Had “A” stuck with his plan … marketed himself … taught himself how to make a cool website … got out on message board and went to shows and actually talked to people … he could have his initial investment back, a few dollars in the bank, taxes and food bills paid, and 5 more cinnies to expand his collection with … live and learn cause he can never go back.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Would you consider Wal-Mart a bad business model?

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No, I don't think so at all. Sam Walton is a hero in business schools across the country, but I don't think that what Wal-Mart does really applies here. Living animals are a entirely different ball game. I think that Sam Waltons business plan might have been a little different has his suppliers threatened him with death, respiratory infections, and 1 in 4 odds on 5 eggs clutches.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

I see this like Sears and Kmart being pissed at Wal-Mart because they sold for less, was Sam Walton so wrong? Sears sales were about $40B in 05, Kmart about $30B, Wal-Mart sales last year about $230B. Instead of making a $10.00 profit on a certain product, Wal-Mart said I'll sell 10 at $1.00 profit margin. Did the formula fail?

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Absolutely not. And there actually is room for Wal-Mart style business plans in the ball python world ... it's called wholesale. If you're willing to operate at a 10% margin, I can give you a list of breeders that will buy everything you have to sell, all day long. You'd never have to post an ad on kingsnake and you'd have to ship only a couple times a year no matter how much you produce. Best part is, you’d still be supporting the market because those breeders will sell at market prices!! … Good stuff for EVERYONE! ;)

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Originally Posted by ssscales

So how is it Wal-Mart is the largest company on the planet? Are they the oldest? Were they here 1st? Did they compete dollar for dollar with their competitors?

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Nope, but what Walmart did do was follow a sound business plan and acted with a little common sense. Do you see the prices on end cap items in Wal-Mart dropping each week? ... Tide with Febreeze ... $5.99 ... $4.99 ... $3.99 ... nope! ... They don't stink of desperation when something isn't moving ... they box it up, put it away, and try again in a couple of months.

Do they lower their prices on artificial Christmas trees each and every year. 2003 $199, 2004 $149, 2005 $99 ... etc ... NO. The prices on seasonal items are the same ... EVERY SEASON.

Wal-Mart operates like a business and makes real money ... nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Will anyone care that I paid 3X's that a few years back only to see the price drop down to $500? Should I be upset because I paid 3X's that, should I kick myself for not waiting a few year and saved? If I do see prices drop, what can I do about it? Blame someone? About what?

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Well, IMO, waiting is just silly … I’ve said before that by using that mentality, no one would ever invest in anything … rent an apartment until housing prices bottom out, hold off on investing in your 401K until the stock market crashes, don’t get engaged until gold is in the gutter, etc.

If you do see a drop, you don’t blame anyone but yourself. How much have you personally put into the market? How much have you gotten out there and educated people about running a business, marketing animals, protecting prices for long term market strength. How much work have you done to PROMOTE the ENTIRE ball market and not just the animals that you have for sale. A good business person in this market promotes and markets ALL BALL PYTHONS … their own, other breeders, their customers … ANY MONEY coming into the market is good money, even if it doesn’t go into your pocket … sooner or later it will come around to you if you’re doing things right. Don’t just be a seller, be a promoter. Ball pythons are the best damn investment on the planet right now, and if you’ve invested in balls and you’ve sold or you’re planning to sell investment animals to others that plan on breeding them to make money it’s in your best interest and your customers (or future customers) best interest for you to stand on that proverbial soap box and get people excited about the market.

The goal should be “long term sustainable income” … I’ll say that again … “long term sustainable income” … not a quick race to the bottom … the more people that get that message, the more money EVERYONE will make … nuttin wrong with that. ;)

-adam

Holy Tony Robbins, Batman! If that last post (and this whole thread) doesn't get you excited about the Ball Python market and your potential role in it, than you need to check your pulse, because you are most likely dead! Adam, much thanks for laying it out in understandable terms. I for one get giddy when I think about what it is and what it can still become and that I can play a part in making it happen. I think Adam nailed it most when saying "PROMOTE THE ENTIRE BALL PYTHON MARKET".

By the way, I am quite envious of Jimmy in some ways. No rent, no bills AND a 19 year old hottie!?! What am I doing wrong? Oh yeah, not living in my mother's basement. That was my life about 10 yrs ago.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

How much work have you done to PROMOTE the ENTIRE ball market and not just the animals that you have for sale. A good business person in this market promotes and markets ALL BALL PYTHONS …-adam

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Here, here.. I have the remainder of '06 already booked as far as events, expo's, meeting / talking with breeders, etc is concerned. It's actually interesting and most importantly educational when we gather all of these different prespectives, tips and ideas on how these breeders small or large continue with their ventures. Granted no trade secrets or special projects will be disclosed but with some good sense and intuition one can put 2 and 2 together and hopefully avoid the "cut throat - price dropping" pit fall / blues. You have have to start somewhere. Might as well be smart about it. As far as the Jimmy's are concerned, they'll come and go. Cream rises to the top;)

I agree on a solid business plan and deciding what direction they want to go in as well as short and long term goals, but what if Jimmy's plan after 2-3yrs in his parents house is to sell quality and quantity, but at a different tier of the market?

Example:

Breeder #1's plan is to produce and sell 10 Albinos at $2000 = $20,000


Jimmy's plan is to produce and sell 30 Albinos at $1000 = $30,000

Both have set their business plan and where they want to be on price. No mistake, no weekend sale, Jimmy produced 30 Albinos and wants to be at $1000ea by choice because that is the profit margin he is happy with.

Who is to say either breeder is right or wrong?

Both breeders bought the same bloodline and stock from the same source 3yrs ago, both raised their snakes with care, both have great quality, beautiful, healthy Albinos. Both have a good reputations, but nothing big and neither has ever screwed anyone over.

Breeder A is selling his Albinos for $2000, Jimmy is selling his for $1000…who's wrong?

Was either of these business plans wrong? Did either of them fail at their goal?

I agree that everyone should protect the market they are in (as I'm sure every mom and pop shop tried to do when Home Depot and Wal-Mart came to town). Is that the reality/majority or will we see more and more Jimmy's jumping in with a wad of cash from the 50-60 Pastels they sold this year for $600? I agree with your thinking Adam, I just think we will see a dozen or so Jimmy's in the next 5-10 yrs.

When it comes down to it $$$ does carry a lot of weight and for a lot of people $$$ is the determining factor depending on how much. I read your message loud and clear, just understand not everyone cares about what is best for the business as a whole and only sees how it effects them today and where they see their business plan. Maybe their plan works with the system, maybe it bucks the system.

We recently bought a new car, we visited a few dealers in the area and shopped around. Two dealers stood out in the end, one dealer had free BBQ, free drinks, music playing, great friendly sales reps that bent over backwards to answer all our questions. When it came down to it, they were $1300 higher than this other dealer and they would not budge. The other dealer was just as good, but less flash not as big as the other dealer. They gave us the same car, same options, same warranty, same package, same service for $1300 less off the lot. Plus I can have the car serviced at any dealer including the other one, so it's not like I'm locked into taking my car to them for life.

How many of you would've paid the $1300 for the BBQ chicken leg, chips and soda? I can get that for $5.00 at the corner restaurant and still save $1,295.00!

Adam is right, but how far will loyalty go when it comes to $$$ and at what price? Sure, we may go with breeder A an pay the extra $100 or $200, but how many will really blow Jimmy off when he's $1000 cheaper for the same animal and has delivered the goods time and time again? Not only that, but how many will follow Jimmy's lead?

As Jimmy grows his collection and the care of the animals takes more and more time, feeder bills grow, the money starts becoming too much to hide from the IRS, one of two things will happen ... either the quality of Jimmys product will go down, or Jimmy will realize that in order to make the same money he was making when he started he'll have to charge more.

I've been around the ball python market for 10 years now, and I've seen it time and time again ... Jimmy will most likely end up burning people because he built and grew a business without a plan and got overwhelmed. Then Jimmy will be gone ... probably with peoples money and their animals ... and there will be a big ugly thread on the BOI about how Jimmy ripped people off.

Growth is a b!t@h and generally the great equalizer in this game.

If that car you bought had been unwashed, dirty on the inside, had an empty gas tank, and a funky smell ... you might have thought differently about that $1300.00. If the cars were truely identical, then you got a great deal, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Like I said, you can't stop the Jimmies, they will take care of themselves ... you also can't fault people for trying to get the best deal that they can ... that's just smart business. What you CAN DO, is educate people ... teach everyone that will listen that the ball python market can make everyone money for a long time if you're smart. If in doing so, over the course of 10 years, you convince one person not to be a Jimmy and to do things right and sell animals for what they are worth, you've done a good thing for yourself and your customers. If everyone that invests in a ball python breeding project does the same, in 25 years we'll ALL still be making money. ;)

-adam

And all I wanted to know, was the price of 06 Pieds.
Great information though! :)

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Originally Posted by ssscales

And all I wanted to know, was the price of 06 Pieds.

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Same as 05 pieds. ;)

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Great information though! :)

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I agree. Fantastic discussion. I still can't believe anyone actually reads my BS!! :P :pinkele:

-adam

Do we have any members named Jimmy? They could develop a complex! :P