Top Shelf Exotics

Don't cut your losses. Get on the bandwagon. The more people that 'stand up' and say how much TSE has took from them...the stronger everyones' case will be.

From the way this thing is sounding.....TSE has probably taken tens of thousands of dollars from people....this stuff can not go unpunished and forgotten.

JTMAN, it looks to be unlikely but try contact TSE. Maybe they'll be able to send yours while they may not be able to send others. Who knows??? Otherwise try the CC co/PayPal direction and there's also small claims court. Or contact someone on BOI like STING and the others may do.

Good luck to all!!!

Well, someone on the BOI directed me to an email of someone who is trying to organize. I sent them another email asking for a refund of the animal and filed my complaint with paypal. Their automated response told me that its been too long and they cant do anything, but at least it is documented. I used money from my checking to pay the initial payment on 11/24. My remaining 4 payments were all from ebay profits in my paypal account. Well, I'll give it a shot but I dont know whats going to happen.

Now Im worried about buying... I couldnt find a single bad thing about TSE when I placed my order. Now this.... I guess I just cut my losses and move on. Can anyone give me like a top 5 list of most reputable breeders? (besides Adam of course:) ). <---- (not sure if that came out right or not but I mean you dont have to list him because hes automatically at the top as hes a much favored member of this wonderful community. Sorry If that came off as meaning hes not to be trusted, that wasnt my intention.)

NERD

RDR
The Snake Keeper

Those names pop to mind immediately when thinking of a breeder who won't ever simply disappear on you. And of course, any one of our loyal members here! ;)

6 months ago TSE would have been on that list LOL. I might have a 650 gram female and rack for sale locally.

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Originally Posted by jtman

Well, someone on the BOI directed me to an email of someone who is trying to organize. I sent them another email asking for a refund of the animal and filed my complaint with paypal. Their automated response told me that its been too long and they cant do anything, but at least it is documented. I used money from my checking to pay the initial payment on 11/24. My remaining 4 payments were all from ebay profits in my paypal account. Well, I'll give it a shot but I dont know whats going to happen.

Now Im worried about buying... I couldnt find a single bad thing about TSE when I placed my order. Now this.... I guess I just cut my losses and move on. Can anyone give me like a top 5 list of most reputable breeders? (besides Adam of course:) ).

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File a complaint here as well - it won't take long and you aren't the first. The more complaints they get, the more attention they will get.

http://www.ic3.gov

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Originally Posted by Stings

6 months ago TSE would have been on that list LOL. I might have a 650 gram female and rack for sale locally.

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Wouldn't have been on MY list. TSE wasn't even on my radar until this thread came up. I realize that they had a good reputation and people trusted them because they had no reason not to. I know that's why folks got burned who never expected to. However, I really think you shouldn't lump all BP breeders into the "UNtrustworthy" category because of the actions of one.

If you look at the business practices of the big breeders, rather than just going by what other people say, you have a much better chance of judging whether they are worthy of your trust or not. If a business is built up very quickly and takes lots of pre-orders for snakes that haven't even hatched yet...I don't care what other people have experienced in the past, I won't be ordering an animal from them that costs over $100.

I do know how it feels to send out a high-dollar check for a snake, and be at the breeder's mercy to recieve the animal I paid for. If Adam had strung me along for months and ended up shafting me after all....I would have been heartbroken, for sure. And pissed as all get-out. But I would not transfer that broken trust to others who have proven themselves to be in it for the long haul.

I feel sorry for the people that got burned, but I did notice something about TSE that should have sent red flags up for everyone. First, they didn't provide pics of the snakes that produced the hets. Second, they didn't provide pics of the hets themselves. I know it's easy to get caught up in getting a good deal, but one should always follow their instincts even with someone with a good rep.

I know you can still get burned even if they did produce pictures, but that should definitely be one of your criteria as far as who you purchase from.

Oh, and never purchase anything from anyone near Buffalo. :P

Well, for now Im going to do what I can filing on the recomended sites and keep an eye on whats going on. I think I've kind of delt with the loss. Although it really sucks its better to get burned on a $500 snake now then on a snake worth thousands a few years from now. Thanks for providing a place for me to share my concerns. I wont give up on my little snaky's and my big plans for them ;)

JT

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Originally Posted by jtman

I cant believe this! I took a brief hiatus from the forum for a little while because I was going nuts reading about ball pythons. I needed a break as I still have a few years before I can breed. So its may now and I wonder whats going on with TSE. Now i find this. I just dont know what to do. I only spent $500, so not really worth the effort to persue legally, especially when people have spent thousands. Is there any chance that things will turn around and be set right or is there no hope at all. I guess should i just cut my losses and move on or keep trying?

Jared

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Please do not give up and allow Chris to think he has won.The more people that join together the better everyones chances are of winning a judgment against TSE.I am not sure what the laws are in his state are but theft over $300 in Illinois is a felony.Maybe Chris will get some hard time to think about what he has done to everyone he has scammed.If you need assistance contacting the proper person on fauna pm me your email addy and i will give it to him.

Chris and his forum were the first place I found online and someone I thought was trustworthy....very disappointing to follow the BOI thread and wonder if trust was misplaced. The BOI can get nuts and I often get mired in the back and forth mishmash of posts but Chris' responses haven't been very great.

It's been niggling at me...so perhaps someone here knows. What is the timeline of TSE? When did they emerge on the BP scene and when did they start in the het game (hets about 2 or 3 years back I think). How did they get this "sterling" reputation? Were they good and suddenly have gone bad or what is up with that? I haven't seen one response on the BOI that anyone ever met Chris at a show, saw him vend at one, had a beer with him.....doesn't that strike any of you as just plain wierd??? How do you produce all these high end hets without foundation stock and why hasn't anyone come forward to say they sold him that foundation stock? How do you become a big name, everyone trusts you kinda guy when basically it seems you are a ghost in what is really a pretty small community?

I have also wondered how Chris established himself in the ball python market.The only thing it seems a few people have come up with is someone who sold Chris several NORMAL ball python,of which COULD be some of his "Het" balls he sold.It also seems numerous people are either ashamed or embarresed to come forward with there dealings with Chris.Either concerned they might get ridiculed or ganged up on for not speaking up sooner about there dealings with TSE.I know thier has to be numerous people out thier still,and i hope they come forward soon.Maybe this could send a message to others by stating if you scam people this WILL happen to you also.

Critter auctions is hosting an auction to raise funds for legal action against TSE.



http://critterauction.com/auction/viewnew.php?id=81

Participation, either through donations of items for auction or bidding - I am sure would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

How do you produce all these high end hets without foundation stock and why hasn't anyone come forward to say they sold him that foundation stock?

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from what i have gathered (and i may be wrong here so someone please correct me if that is the case) he is not a breeder but a dealer. he simply resells animals that he purchases from other sources. this explains why he would suddenly run out of stock--if he hasn't been able to purchase any then he has none to sell or ship out to those who have alread paid.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

from what i have gathered (and i may be wrong here so someone please correct me if that is the case) he is not a breeder but a dealer. he simply resells animals that he purchases from other sources. this explains why he would suddenly run out of stock--if he hasn't been able to purchase any then he has none to sell or ship out to those who have alread paid.

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Not if you believe Chris. He claims that he produces all his own BP morphs and hets. That is directly from his mouth.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I have also wondered how Chris established himself in the ball python market.

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For whatever it's worth, I don't think that any of the "big guys/gals" in the ball python market ever considered Chris "established". I think he was generally considered a jobber reselling snakes at 25% below market value.

It was the "deal seekers" that gave him overnight credibility.

-adam

Would be wierd to be a re-seller with a stated TOS that if you sell the het you buy from him any guarantee of genetics is null and void (which is my very basic understanding of how Chris handled this). So basically if he was buying real hets the seller guarantees the genetics, Chris sells it to me guaranteeing the genetics but god forbid I sell it to you Emily or to Jamie because all of a sudden this 100% het just became a normal due to a refusal to back the stated genetics???? Something sure doesn't add up with that at least not in my lil ole mind or perhaps I'm missing something?

My understanding was like Jamie's - that Chris stated the hets were produced by him therefore he must have had the foundation stock to breed from and had to have purchased them from somebody right? There's also concerns about an alleged t-stat malfunction that killed a large number (and cash dollar) of his stock awhile back...guess this is where the missing breeders went?

Whatever has happened this is a black eye for TSE and sadly I'm seeing posts that indicate it's hurting how people feel about ordering online or getting into ball python morphs, so in the end that hurts us all.

I still don't get how he built a reputation so solid and strong and can't figure out a timeline that makes any sense to me.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Whatever has happened this is a black eye for TSE

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Black eye? ... He allegedly ripped people of for tens of thousands of dollars and has no money to refund anyone ... not black eye ... TSE is done ... forever.

-adam

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Chris and his forum were the first place I found online and someone I thought was trustworthy....very disappointing to follow the BOI thread and wonder if trust was misplaced. The BOI can get nuts and I often get mired in the back and forth mishmash of posts but Chris' responses haven't been very great.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

It's been niggling at me...so perhaps someone here knows. What is the timeline of TSE? When did they emerge on the BP scene and when did they start in the het game (hets about 2 or 3 years back I think).

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Roughly 2 1/2 years I believe.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

How did they get this "sterling" reputation? Were they good and suddenly have gone bad or what is up with that?

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That's the $64,000 question. I have spoken to one major breeder who never heard of him. A retail pet business with multiple store fronts in his area has never heard of him either, which I find odd because it was my understanding that he did a decent amount of wholesale.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I haven't seen one response on the BOI that anyone ever met Chris at a show, saw him vend at one, had a beer with him.....doesn't that strike any of you as just plain wierd??? How do you produce all these high end hets without foundation stock and why hasn't anyone come forward to say they sold him that foundation stock? How do you become a big name, everyone trusts you kinda guy when basically it seems you are a ghost in what is really a pretty small community?

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No one has come forward to say that they have sold him BP morphs thus far.
One retailer came forward to indicate he has sold Chris 2.0 normals for $220.00. That seems strange for more than one reason.

What's a jobber?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Black eye? ... He allegedly ripped people of for tens of thousands of dollars and has no money to refund anyone ... not black eye ... TSE is done ... forever.

-adam

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Agreed.

Unless Sing-Sing has the facilities for running a prison-based reptile business.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

What's a jobber?

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A "middle-man".

Someone who turns and burns - buys and then sells.

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Originally Posted by shavemycoinpurse

Agreed.

Unless Sing-Sing has the facilities for running a prison-based reptile business.

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I'd really be surprised if he actually does jail time.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened ... every couple of years there's always an "incident" in this biz and I've yet to see anyone go to jail ... they just usually disappear.

And sometimes they even resurface with a new biz name hiding behind fake identities doing the same thing all over again.

Hang around the biz long enough and nothing will shock you anymore. ;)

-adam

Interesting saga. I think its good that the discussion is going on here as well. There is a certain amount of level headedness here that leads to meaningful discussion outside the mob mentality

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'd really be surprised if he actually does jail time.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened ... every couple of years there's always an "incident" in this biz and I've yet to see anyone go to jail ... they just usually disappear.

And sometimes they even resurface with a new biz name hiding behind fake identities doing the same thing all over again.

Hang around the biz long enough and nothing will shock you anymore. ;)

-adam

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I know. Wishful thinking.

I'm sure it'll be GlennPatExotic soon enough :) ...No doubt he will return under a different name.

I am having trouble figureing out exactly what happened. I started to read the BOI thread but 1300+ post will take me forever to wade though. Not to mention all the side tracked arguments that go in in that thread. So in the begining hes saying hes sick but at the end of the thread its talk about legal actions and scams. Did he lie about being sick too? Did he just take the money and run? Maybe these questions havent been answered but I was just wondering. I'm going to take the necessary actions and get involved as best I can. I could just kick myself for going for the "good deal"

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Black eye? ... He allegedly ripped people of for tens of thousands of dollars and has no money to refund anyone ... not black eye ... TSE is done ... forever.

-adam

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You're right Adam and it's as it should be though I just feel so awful for the folks that got ripped off. If they are like Mike and I that have to safe for snakes and really plan ahead, it's a hard thing to just wave a grand or two goodbye (well it's hard for anyone really to accept this garbage).

I guess I just don't have the mindset of a major scammer but all that work to set up, run a forum, all the time invested, whatever....call me a pollyanna but a mind that smart and focused could have applied itself to so many good ventures instead of this mess.

I am getting involved in the lawsuit and i have submitted to the internet fraud sites. yes i am angry about what has been done to me and yes i have taken it out on people i should not have. for this im sorry im sorry im sorry. so far did i get ripped off the largest amount?

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Originally Posted by Stings

I am getting involved in the lawsuit and i have submitted to the internet fraud sites. yes i am angry about what has been done to me and yes i have taken it out on people i should not have. for this im sorry im sorry im sorry. so far did i get ripped off the largest amount?

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I don't think anyone knows who has lost the most quite yet.

Needless to say $2,000 is nothing to sneeze at.

I would encourage you to stick things out as far as the hobby goes.

There are many good people involved in the hobby and the industry.

Perhaps we could get some of the "Good Guys" to kick some hets in and make you whole.

I'm not hatching anything this year - but if all goes well I'll have Het Pieds next year - and you are welcome to a 1.0 Het Pied from one of my clutches when they hatch.

This is really really hard on me. I'm 14 and payed every cent of the $600 myself. I'm really pissed. I just feel awful. There ohone number 1-877- REPT-1-LE also does not work

Also when was the last e-mail contact w/ this guy?

This is what breaks my heart and makes me so mad. People saving and scrimping for a dream and some rotten person takes advantage of that. I know...I know...it's been done before and will happen again...but what a world where a teenager has to have this happen! Dang but I'd love 10 minutes with Chris to explain just how a parent feels when their kid gets ripped off like this. This could easily have been my Luke or Beth! Awful enough for us adults to deal with, but to steal from kids! Just sick :mad:

I do not know anyone personally that was ripped off by Chris but it still gets my blood boiling.Its people like him that make it even harder for the small time breeders to possibly sell there reptiles in the future.I will in the near future have albino ball python,pastels(for sure next season) and someday bumblebees and i am sure i will have problems selling them.More then likely no one is going to trust the smaller breeders and buy only from well established breeders.It does not surprise me that Chris has not responded in awhile,i bet he thinks this is a big joke and nothing will happen to him.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I do not know anyone personally that was ripped off by Chris but it still gets my blood boiling.Its people like him that make it even harder for the small time breeders to possibly sell there reptiles in the future.I will in the near future have albino ball python,pastels(for sure next season) and someday bumblebees and i am sure i will have problems selling them.More then likely no one is going to trust the smaller breeders and buy only from well established breeders.It does not surprise me that Chris has not responded in awhile,i bet he thinks this is a big joke and nothing will happen to him.

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True. I'm just getting into it myself, and it makes me leery of dealing over the 'net. I feel for you Cubby. After all this, I'm not so sure I'd go to anyone except a member here, if I can afford it. But the smaller the pond, the less the choices....once all your stock is gone, then I would have to wait until the next breeding season if I was unwilling to look elsewhere...so it's a toss-up. :(

From the BOI and here, I don't think he's not responding and thinking it's a joke. I get the impression he probably knows how deep the kimchee is and is keeping his head down to AVOID the JAIL TIME. Fading into the nothingness will help him personally.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

I do not know anyone personally that was ripped off by Chris but it still gets my blood boiling.Its people like him that make it even harder for the small time breeders to possibly sell there reptiles in the future.I will in the near future have albino ball python,pastels(for sure next season) and someday bumblebees and i am sure i will have problems selling them.More then likely no one is going to trust the smaller breeders and buy only from well established breeders.It does not surprise me that Chris has not responded in awhile,i bet he thinks this is a big joke and nothing will happen to him.

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Guys like Chris don't make it any harder for the small breeder than it normally is. The ball python market is very strong and there are a lot of buyers out there. If you market yourself professionally, advertise in the right places to get your name out there, and provide the best possible service you can to customers as well as prospective customers you will have no problems selling your snakes.

Even if not one person was ever scammed in this business, no one can set up a new snake biz and on day one be flooded with sales ... it takes time. Set up goals ... 5 customers your first year ... 15 your next .... before you know it you'll have a file cabinet full of paid invoices.

Don't let the scammers worry you ... they've always been here and they will continue to be here ... they don't matter ... do your own thing to the best of your ability and ignore the "noise" around you.

And most important ... HAVE FUN!!! Ball Pythons RULE!! :D

-adam

Excellent advice Adam! I think it's a worry for a lot of us but your common sense approach to it is very reassuring. Also the comment about having fun....if it isn't about fun, passion and love for Royals....then it's just about cleaning snake crap and hoping to make a buck and who needs just that in their life.

Also keep in mind that the bad events get the most coverage. For every person that has been scammed, there are probably hundreds (or more) that have not. People don't usually report on the successful transactions, but they'll shout from the rooftops when their deal has gone south (and rightfully so).

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Also keep in mind that the bad events get the most coverage. For every person that has been scammed, there are probably hundreds (or more) that have not. People don't usually report on the successful transactions, but they'll shout from the rooftops when their deal has gone south (and rightfully so).

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Gospel truth there - everyone is always way to anxious to rubberneck the train wreck!

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Black eye? ... He allegedly ripped people of for tens of thousands of dollars and has no money to refund anyone ... not black eye ... TSE is done ... forever.

-adam

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I beleive Chris will be in jail shortly.. I just dont understand how you can look someone in the eye and steal from them.. I had delt with him on a few tranactions and none of them were what I was expecting except for a group of leos..

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Also keep in mind that the bad events get the most coverage. For every person that has been scammed, there are probably hundreds (or more) that have not. People don't usually report on the successful transactions, but they'll shout from the rooftops when their deal has gone south (and rightfully so).

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Sure but when you are talking about hets possibly not being hets anymore (accusations, not facts yet) then it jumps from dozens to hundred+ fairly quickly?

Amen Adam .....

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Guys like Chris don't make it any harder for the small breeder than it normally is.
-adam

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Well actualy he made it harder for me. Back when I bought the het pair from him in January even the higher priced het albino pairs that I didnt buy were around $800. Now four months later I can barely afford the het albinos pairs now because they are so expensive. If anybody could give me a PM or e-mail about yourself having some het albinos or another good guy please do.

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Originally Posted by Cubby23

Well actualy he made it harder for me.

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I was talking about breeders that are actually selling snakes. I understand that Chris certainly made things harder for all of the people that either didn't get what they paid for or paid and didn't get anything at all.

-adam

The TSE situation is crazy!

How is the heck could he do something like this and it seems to have happened overnight, but apparently it was in the making for a while. I guess in the past no one spoke out about their negative experience with TSE seeing TSE's rep, TSE's attitude and TSE supporters.

It all seemed to come crashing down when 2-3-5-10-20 people came out in a short period of time with monies paid, but no snakes for 2-3-4 months! Now people are coming out that also received sick snakes from TSE 3-6 months back claiming their bad dealings!

I too considered buying a number of Hets from TSE a while back...GLAD I DIDN'T!

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Originally Posted by ssscales

The TSE situation is crazy!

How is the heck could he do something like this and it seems to have happened overnight, but apparently it was in the making for a while. I guess in the past no one spoke out about their negative experience with TSE seeing TSE's rep, TSE's attitude and TSE supporters.

It all seemed to come crashing down when 2-3-5-10-20 people came out in a short period of time with monies paid, but no snakes for 2-3-4 months! Now people are coming out that also received sick snakes from TSE 3-6 months back claiming their bad dealings!

I too considered buying a number of Hets from TSE a while back...GLAD I DIDN'T!

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The reason i seem to figure out is most people he jacked over were concerned about coming to forums and complaining about a "big shot in the reptile world".Last time someone even mentioned something bad about Chris they were slammed by other members of the forum.Now everyone is joining together to shut him down forever;) .

While I'm not a contributing member of the BOI I do go there quite often. Something I notice with great regularity is how nasty it can get when the 'regulars' don't agree with something. Take this TSE thread for example, when it was first started there were quite a few people very unhappy that someone dare question Chris...And yet people wonder why no one came forward? The pack mentality there has it's drawbacks.
Also, while I appreciate the fact that the BOI is not cheap to run the fact that you have to pay to post is keeping many of the wronged from telling their stories. Over on the RDR forums there is someone who purchased some het pieds and het albinos, two of which are gravid. However he didn't post because he didn't want to pay.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

complaining about a "big shot in the reptile world".

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Did people actually believe that he was a "big shot"? :O

-adam

Early on TSE definitely had their supporters! If it was 1-2 buyers that got scammed, this would've gone a lot different and TSE would still be doing business as usual! After so many complaints came out, TSE supporters jumped ship. Not too mention, Chris did the most damage with his keyboard!

He could've easily made this situation a lot better by sincerely apologizing and cutting everyone a check or shipping them what they paid for, but he basically told everyone to :cens0r: themselves and they better like it!

Not too smart!

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Originally Posted by Entropy

While I'm not a contributing member of the BOI I do go there quite often. Something I notice with great regularity is how nasty it can get when the 'regulars' don't agree with something. Take this TSE thread for example, when it was first started there were quite a few people very unhappy that someone dare question Chris...And yet people wonder why no one came forward? The pack mentality there has it's drawbacks.
Also, while I appreciate the fact that the BOI is not cheap to run the fact that you have to pay to post is keeping many of the wronged from telling their stories. Over on the RDR forums there is someone who purchased some het pieds and het albinos, two of which are gravid. However he didn't post because he didn't want to pay.

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If they were to contact the person taking names of those ripped off he should be able to help them.Or if they contact rich directly he sometimes gives you a 30 day free pass to post your info.Tell them its worth a try.