Wiggles, the Children's Python

One thing I love about teeny tiny snakes is that they make teeny tiny turds. So, spot cleaning after a Children's python is so easy, even compared to a ball python.

Wiggles has successfully moved on to step two in his target training.

For those of you who don't know, in target training, you reward your snake for interacting with a target. As you progress through the steps, the snake is required to perform more complex behaviors in order to get its reward (food). In step one, you present the target and the reward at the same time. Your goal is to have the snake associate, in its mind, the target with the reward. In step two, you present the target by itself and reward the snake when it directs its attention to the target. This is the step Wiggles successfully completed last night.

I've been pairing food with a target since I got him, so, he spent 8 sessions in step one. Last night was his first session in step two. My ultimate goal is to be able to direct Wiggles wherever I want him to go using the target. For those interested in learning more, Lori Torrini has a great video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vkqbJWHwwk.

I just had an hour long conversation with Wiggles. You'll say I'm crazy, but I swear I can practically hear him talk. The conversation went something like this:

Wiggles: Excuse me?
Me: Yes?
Wiggles: Are you food?
Me: No. Sorry. I'm not food.
Wiggles: Are you sure?
Me: Yes. I'm certain.
Wiggles: Mind if I smell you?
Me: Be my guest.
Wiggles: Oh God no! You are not food. Get away from me!
Me: Fine!
Wiggles: How about you? Are you food?
Me: No. I'm the same guy that wasn't food before.
Wiggles: Are you sure?
Me: Yes. I'm certain.
Wiggles: Mind if I smell you?

Over and over for an hour. I never managed to convince him that I wasn't food. I just gave up and closed up his enclosure. My question is: Is this a healthy interaction? For my part, it was kind of fun even if it was also a little maddening. I mean, I never had conversations with my ball python. For his part, he was certainly engaged. I would imagine interacting with a living creature is more stimulating for him than interacting with the inanimate objects in his enclosure. On the other hand, the subject of the conversation doesn't seem healthy. I mean, he spent the whole time trying to figure out if he could eat me. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Homebody

... My question is: Is this a healthy interaction?........the subject of the conversation doesn't seem healthy. I mean, he spent the whole time trying to figure out if he could eat me. What do you think?

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:rofl: Some snakes are charter members of Densa, but most finally get it thru their heads that we're not edible- some king snakes are like that too- hard to convince, especially if they've not been well "socialized". But you haven't had him that long to change him- and it's not as if the seller didn't warn you about this, though I don't recall if that was before or after you paid for him? Hopefully it was before. :snake2: When the seller says a snake "may mistake fingers for food", believe them!

From what I've read, Children's pythons are more likely to be "nippy" than the very similar Spotted Pythons, like the one I have- I've never had a problem with my Aussie. And for what it's worth, I've never had such a problem with a rat snake, & I've known MANY- no matter how big their appetite & no matter how feisty their personality, they appear to know better- on the whole, rat snakes seem to be smarter snakes-IMO. I think your snake's former owner just didn't spend much time with this snake, so he's late to learn his limits.

Now supposing there might be a medical reason for this endless hunger- has he had a stool check for worms? A snake with worms might show excessive hunger- & it won't be their fault. Just a thought.

Apart from that- snakes are wild & instinctive creatures- they each do have their own personality, & some just make better (or "easier") pets than others. Be glad- very glad- he's tiny! :D

Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going? :confusd: Sorta hard to tell if your question is real or in jest. ;)

And you gotta hand it to him- he's not "a quitter"! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:rofl: Some snakes are charter members of Densa, but most finally get it thru their heads that we're not edible- some king snakes are like that too- hard to convince, especially if they've not been well "socialized". But you haven't had him that long to change him- and it's not as if the seller didn't warn you about this, though I don't recall if that was before or after you paid for him? Hopefully it was before. :snake2: When the seller says a snake "may mistake fingers for food", believe them!

From what I've read, Children's pythons are more likely to be "nippy" than the very similar Spotted Pythons, like the one I have- I've never had a problem with my Aussie. And for what it's worth, I've never had such a problem with a rat snake, & I've known MANY- no matter how big their appetite & no matter how feisty their personality, they appear to know better- on the whole, rat snakes seem to be smarter snakes-IMO. I think your snake's former owner just didn't spend much time with this snake, so he's late to learn his limits.

Now supposing there might be a medical reason for this endless hunger- has he had a stool check for worms? A snake with worms might show excessive hunger- & it won't be their fault. Just a thought.

Apart from that- snakes are wild & instinctive creatures- they each do have their own personality, & some just make better (or "easier") pets than others. Be glad- very glad- he's tiny! :D

Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going? :confusd: Sorta hard to tell if your question is real or in jest. ;)

And you gotta hand it to him- he's not "a quitter"! :rofl:

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To the extent that I'm asking a question, rather than just relating a funny story, it's this: Is it unusual for a highly food motivated individual (seller warned me in advance), from a species in the upper tier of highly food motivated species, to be fixated on food 24 hours after its last meal?

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Originally Posted by Homebody

To the extent that I'm asking a question, rather than just relating a funny story, it's this: Is it unusual for a highly food motivated individual (seller warned me in advance), from a species in the upper tier of highly food motivated species, to be fixated on food 24 hours after its last meal?

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Yes. Snakes may stay in "feed mode" for hours, or even a day or days after feeding. It's a very individual thing- I've had snakes that I can feed & handle right after, but not all. Yours obviously enjoys "feed mode" more than most. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going?

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I did and I'm very excited that Wiggles is at step 2, but there are 7 steps. So, I guess I have a ways to go before Wiggles learns that no target means no food.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I did and I'm very excited that Wiggles is at step 2, but there are 7 steps. So, I guess I have a ways to go before Wiggles learns that no target means no food.

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Maybe he misunderstood his lesson?- "you're the target!" :D (hang in there)

Last night I had a bit of a set back in my choice-based handling program with Wiggles. For those that don't know, choice-based handling seeks to reduce the stress inherent in handling by only handing the animal when it chooses to be handled. Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to handle the animal whether it wants it or not, like last night.

After dinner, I noticed that Wiggles was surfing the glass, so I decided to let him out to roam around a bit. There is only one FREAKIN' place in my whole living room Wiggles is not allowed to go. It's in the narrow space between his tub and the side of the enclosure.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...dsc03500.2.jpg
So, of course, that's where he went. 3 times. The last time he reminded me why he's not allowed to go there.

Now, I can see why he wants to go there. I don't blame him. It's a cave, a tight dark place. The problem is that I can't get him out of there. The first couple times I caught him before he got too far. But that damned reptile patience got the better of me. He just sat there, still, for like an hour. I get distracted and the next thing I see is his tail disappearing into the crevice.

I decide to wait until he chooses to come out. Two and half hours later, it's midnight, my patience is worn out and I'm falling asleep. I can't leave him there all night. Who knows where he'll end up? So, I decide a more forceful approach is called for. Fortunately, I can see him, so when I remove the tub I can see that he's not getting pinched against the side. Unfortunately, he can see me too and he buries himself in my carefully secured electric cables. I try to pull him out, but he's wound himself in there. So, I fix myself a cup off coffee and go back to waiting him out. I changed his substrate and secured the heat tape that had come loose. While I was working, I noticed that he was no longer so tightly wound among the cables and managed to pull him free.

In any training program, there will be set-backs, but I really need to figure out a way to avoid this one. I like giving him the freedom to move about on his own. Watching him do so is my favorite thing to do, but I've got to figure out a way to keep him from going back in that gap.

I'm considering taking Wiggles outside tomorrow, but I'm concerned about the reception he'll receive from my neighbors. The weather should be beautiful, sunny, 85 degrees, but I live in a city and the only outdoor space I have is a public park. I imagine I'll encounter both people that are terrified of snakes and those that can't keep their hand off them. Frankly, I doubt the UV and pretty pics are worth the drama, but maybe my imagination is running away with me.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'm considering taking Wiggles outside tomorrow, but I'm concerned about the reception he'll receive from my neighbors. The weather should be beautiful, sunny, 85 degrees, but I live in a city and the only outdoor space I have is a public park. I imagine I'll encounter both people that are terrified of snakes and those that can't keep their hand off them. Frankly, I doubt the UV and pretty pics are worth the drama, but maybe my imagination is running away with me.

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It's generally a bad idea to show up with a snake where you know people won't expect to see one & where some may be terrified of them- you also might run into rules or legal issues being in a public park. (I've heard of someone being harassed for being in violation of the "leash law", despite the fact that no snake can keep a collar & leash ON.) While it's lots of fun to share a snake with most people, I'd suggest finding a quiet out of the way area so as not to cause a scene. And it won't end well if Wiggles decides to nip someone- are you sure this won't be an issue? Nothing like a bite to make snakes even more hated & feared.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's generally a bad idea to show up with a snake where you know people won't expect to see one & where some may be terrified of them- you also might run into rules or legal issues being in a public park. (I've heard of someone being harassed for being in violation of the "leash law", despite the fact that no snake can keep a collar & leash ON.) While it's lots of fun to share a snake with most people, I'd suggest finding a quiet out of the way area so as not to cause a scene. And it won't end well if Wiggles decides to nip someone- are you sure this won't be an issue? Nothing like a bite to make snakes even more hated & feared.

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UV and pretty pics would be my goal, not making friends. I wouldn't let anyone hold him. I'd prefer it if they didn't see him, but I don't think I can avoid that. It's a public park on a sunny day. There will be lots of people.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

UV and pretty pics would be my goal, not making friends. I wouldn't let anyone hold him. I'd prefer it if they didn't see him, but I don't think I can avoid that. It's a public park on a sunny day. There will be lots of people.

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Well, good luck- I hope it goes well.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well, good luck- I hope it goes well.

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I've decided against it. I'm working on building trust in our relationship and I don't think this would be an activity that Wiggles would enjoy. Maybe later when our relationship is on firmer ground and he's exploring outside his enclosure more confidently.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I've decided against it. I'm working on building trust in our relationship and I don't think this would be an activity that Wiggles would enjoy. Maybe later when our relationship is on firmer ground and he's exploring outside his enclosure more confidently.

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Probably just as well- it could go either way. He might enjoy it, or he might be freaked out- he might feel inspired to run away, or he might look to you as his "safe harbor". I take my snakes outside in my yard now & then with proper temperatures, & they seem to enjoy all the scents in the fresh air. But your snake is still pretty new to you.

I made an adjustment to Wiggles's basking temps and it resulted in a dramatic change in his behavior. I started off keeping his basking temps between 85 and 90 degrees, the same as I did for my ball python. But I noticed that Wiggles wasn't behaving the way I had been told a Children's Python would behave. He was docile and easy to handle. I had been told he was bitey. He was feeding regularly, but he wasn't food aggressive. Lastly, he wasn't very active. He didn't climb. If he was out of his hide, it was only to bask. He spent most of his time in his warm side hide and he never used his cool side hide. Frankly, he acted a lot like my ball python and I was a little disappointed.

At first I reasoned that he was settling in. He would come out of his shell once he adjusted. But he didn't. Since he was spending so much time on the warm side, I decided to go back and review my temps. I have an Excel sheet of basic care parameters part of which I've copied below. After reviewing them, I decided to try bumping my basking temps up to between 90 and 95 degrees.

Source	Basking high	Basking low
https://www.reptiledirect.com/childrens-python/	90	85
https://reptilesmagazine.com/antaresia-pythons/	99	99
https://www.reptilerange.com/childre...on-care-sheet/	90	90
https://www.azreptiles.com/childrens-python/	90	88
https://dubiaroaches.com/blogs/snake...hon-care-sheet	100	90
https://www.amazingamazon.com.au/pag...nd-information	91	87
https://reptilehow.com/childrens-python-care-sheet/	90	85
https://www.unusualpetvets.com.au/wp...Care-Sheet.pdf	100	91

The result was dramatic. He stopped spending so much time in his warm side hide. He began to climb and explore his enclosure. He became much more food aggressive, and so, a little trickier to handle. He would surf the glass begging to be fed or maybe let out (I'm not always sure what he wants when he does that). In short, be became the snake I had hoped he would be.

Later on, I saw a Lori Torrini video where she describes an similar change in her Children's Python when she raised his temps. Now, I'm not saying I disagree with the lower temps suggested in some of the care guides above. I'm just saying that warmer temps seem to be working better for Wiggles and me.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...ngs_123849.jpg
I'm pleased to report that Wiggles has been making use of his entire enclosure. Since the enclosure is divided between an upper terrarium and a lower tub, I was curious to see which he would favor. The enclosure was originally designed for a ball python. Ball pythons being shy creatures I thought my BP would appreciate the security the opaque tub provides. But I also knew my BP liked to escape from his previous tub, so I have him the terrarium as a safe place for him to escape to. It worked wonderfully for my BP, but I wasn't sure it would work as well for Wiggles, my Children's python.

As a semi-arboreal species, I expected Wiggles to favor the terrarium. Children's pythons are also not a shy species, so I was concerned that the tub would be a waste of space. But after 3 months, I can say he's using both. I often see him in his terrarium hiding, basking, and exploring. I can't see him in the tub, but sometimes when I spot clean, I'll see him in there. I also find his feces and urates in there. It's tough to say where he spends more time since I can only see him in the terrarium, but I think where he spends his time may change with the seasons.

In the Spring, I think he favored the terrarium. His basking spot is there, so it's warmer there. As Summer approaches, I've noticed him spending more time in the tub. I think he's seeking the cooler temperatures there. I expect as the weather warms, he'll spend more time there. In the Fall, I expect he'll start favoring the terrarium again, but we'll see.

Anyway, I'm happy to see him making use of the entire enclosure. I was concerned that an enclosure designed for a Ball python wouldn't be ideal for a Children's python, but so far, it appears to be working even better than I'd hoped.

Great observations ^ ^ ^ and I think it really shows how much snakes appreciate & NEED choices to be at their best. :gj:

The kid's legal now!
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...t_redacted.jpg

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Originally Posted by Homebody

The kid's legal now!
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...t_redacted.jpg

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Just curious, was there a fee required for that?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Just curious, was there a fee required for that?

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Yep. $10.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Yep. $10.

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Oh good, that's not bad at all. Just pays for their office help keeping track of things. (it could be a lot worse)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Oh good, that's not bad at all. Just pays for their office help keeping track of things. (it could be a lot worse)

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I was surprised at how cheap it was.

Wiggles bit me again. I grabbed him from behind to keep him from entering the forbidden gap (see post #59), and he swung around and bit me on the base of my right middle finger. Unlike the last time he bit me (#14), he wrapped and held on. I would describe the feeling as mildly irritating, certainly nothing to fear, kind of like a mild jellyfish sting. I don’t know why he wrapped. It was clearly a defensive bite. He just doesn’t seem to have his striking technique down. When he’s hungry, he bites and releases. When he’s defensive, he bites and wraps. It’s a good thing he has me to look after him. I don’t think he’d fare very well in the wild.

Anyway, as a result I’ve modified my approach to Wiggle’s recreational time. I no longer allow him to come out of his enclosure on his own. Now, I open his enclosure. If he comes to the threshold looking for a way out, I gently pick him up and put him in his favorite hide on top of his enclosure. If he’s at all stressed by my picking him up, my thought is that he’ll recover quickly there. He usually spends a few minutes there before coming out to explore. After an hour, I gently scoop him up and put him back. Allowing him the freedom to come out of his enclosure on his own was supposed to reduce his stress, but too often, it led to distressing situations. So, I took away that little bit of freedom. I think he’s better off for it.

Was he fed live previously? He does seem to have it backwards- :D But maybe he's less-than-thrilled with f/t prey so when it doesn't struggle (or maybe isn't warm enough?), he lets go.

That "should have been" a defensive bite (to your hand) but it sounds to me like he's hungry & when he caught something warm & wiggling, he decided to go for it. :rolleyes: Silly snek!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Was he fed live previously? He does seem to have it backwards- :D But maybe he's less-than-thrilled with f/t prey so when it doesn't struggle (or maybe isn't warm enough?), he lets go.

That "should have been" a defensive bite (to your hand) but it sounds to me like he's hungry & when he caught something warm & wiggling, he decided to go for it. :rolleyes: Silly snek!

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He bites and wraps mice just fine. It's my hands that confuse him. The first time he bit me, he clearly thought I was food, but he bit and released. This time, the second time, he was clearly trying to defend himself and yet he bit and wrapped. Maybe with more practice he'll learn to bite my hands properly. Hopefully, not.

Homebody,

Have you thought about hook/tap training Wiggles?

I do it with all my aggressive feeders.

If you want info on how to do it successfully, I can pass it on.

I think it would help.

From what I've know and experienced, Antaresia can go for hands anyway, but hook training could greatly reduce the tendency and certainly in tank.

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Originally Posted by dakski

Homebody,

Have you thought about hook/tap training Wiggles?

I do it with all my aggressive feeders.

If you want info on how to do it successfully, I can pass it on.

I think it would help.

From what I've know and experienced, Antaresia can go for hands anyway, but hook training could greatly reduce the tendency and certainly in tank.

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Great idea! I found your thread and video: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ead-with-Video
Anything to add?

I target train Wiggles once a week, but this will give me something for me to do with him the other six days. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Great idea! I found your thread and video: http://Hook Training Instruction Thread with Video. Anything to add?

I target train Wiggles once a week, but this will give me something for me to do with him the other six days. Thanks.

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Be consistent. Look at body language. Sometimes I have to rub/tap a snake for 2 seconds, sometimes, 30 seconds, to get them to "snap" out of food drive and/or understand that I am coming to pick them up.

Once they relax their body, I am comfortable picking up any of my snakes, even if they've been striking a moment before.

Wiggles weighed in today at a bruising 164 grams. That's 44 grams more than her last weigh-in on March 26th and 83 grams more than in January. I'll probably start adding a pinkie to the hopper he takes weekly. Another feeder will give me an additional opportunity to target train.

Semi-Arboreal My Butt!
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...img-0054.2.jpg
Beat that, Asian vine snake!

:rofl: These are such talented snakes- definitely not boring! :D

Yesterday’s target training was a bit of a muddle. I got a pinkie to go with the hopper that I usually feed, so I had two opportunities. The pinkie went normally. He didn’t have a particularly strong reaction to the target, but it was good enough. For the hopper, I decided to set up a little foraging exercise for him, but I didn’t what to break with the target training, so I put the mouse in front of the target. Well, that didn’t work.

First, he is not used to taking two prey items. After the pinkie, he went into his hide to digest. He came out halfway a few times, flicking and yawning. I think he sensed the hopper, but he wasn’t interested enough to go hunting for it. After a while, I moved his hide closer to it. He came out of the hide completely but couldn’t find it. So, I gave up on foraging and decided to have another target training. That didn’t work either.

He saw the hopper as soon as I picked it up, so he ignored the target and went straight for it. I put the target directly between him and the hopper, but I don’t think he noticed it. I fed him the hopper anyway.

It was a muddle because I started target training, switched to foraging, and back to target training all with a snake that not adept at either. No wonder he was confused. You live, you learn. Even experienced trainers have bad sessions. At least he ate.

I usually feed the larger item first, IF feeding more than one thing. Better digestion that way- the larger one will be slower so the "afterthought" item can catch up & not cause a re-gurge.

It does sound like a perfect "muddle"- :cool: But plenty of chances to practice- Rome wasn't built in a day either.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I usually feed the larger item first, IF feeding more than one thing. Better digestion that way- the larger one will be slower so the "afterthought" item can catch up & not cause a re-gurge.

It does sound like a perfect "muddle"- :cool: But plenty of chances to practice- Rome wasn't built in a day either.

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Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I fed the smaller first because I thought he would be more likely to eat the larger second. It didn't know regurgitation was a possibility. I'll switch up the order.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I fed the smaller first because I thought he would be more likely to eat the larger second. It didn't know regurgitation was a possibility. I'll switch up the order.

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A re-gurge is unlikely when both are taken pretty close together, but the trouble is, you never know how long before the second prey item goes down, & pinkies digest really fast. Also, if they don't take the second item, at least you didn't waste the better meal item.

Snakes may regurgitate when they've just digested something & haven't yet replenished their digestive fluids- & there isn't enough to digest the second item. You never want to add an item to their meal if it's been longer than 30-60 minutes (roughly), just to be on the safe side.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

A re-gurge is unlikely when both are taken pretty close together, but the trouble is, you never know how long before the second prey item goes down, & pinkies digest really fast. Also, if they don't take the second item, at least you didn't waste the better meal item.

Snakes may regurgitate when they've just digested something & haven't yet replenished their digestive fluids- & there isn't enough to digest the second item. You never want to add an item to their meal if it's been longer than 30-60 minutes (roughly), just to be on the safe side.

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I guess I should have researched feeding multiple items before I did it. I'll do so, now, before I do it again.

Good news! Wiggles has progressed to stage three of his target training. Tonight, he locked on the target and started moving toward it. He did so well I thought he might just skip over stage three and go to stage four, but I didn't want to be greedy, so I rewarded him after he moved toward the target.

Now, the bad news. The second session didn't go so well. After he ate the hopper in the first training, he ducked into his warm hide. I wasn't sure I would be willing to do another session. Eating two items is new for him and I wasn't sure he'd have any interest in a second one. Well, I was wrong.

He came right back out of his hide, so I decided to do another training session with a pinkie. He didn't show a strong interest in the target. I suppose his interest is directly proportional to his hunger. So, I just dangled the pinkie in front of the target. He sniffed the pinkie, but turned and launched at my hand. Just a quick tag.

My theory is that the pinkie had cooled between sessions. He smelled mouse but struck at the warmest thing, my hand. You live, you learn (I've been sayin' that a lot lately). Next time, I'll rewarm the pinkie and wear my gloves.

Yup, bigger warm "prey"- :O Oops, sorry human! (Longer tongs are in order- your hand should not be that close to the mouse-12" tongs should suffice.)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yup, bigger warm "prey"- :O Oops, sorry human! (Longer tongs are in order- your hand should not be that close to the mouse-12" tongs should suffice.)

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My tongs are 12". He didn't strike at the prey, miss, and hit me. He turned from the prey and launched directly at me. My tongs could have been 25" and he still would have gotten me. Gloves should protect me though. Mine are thick, waterproof gloves you see fisherman use. They'll not only protect my hands from a bite, but also mask the heat from my hands, so he won't try. That's what I hope at least.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

My tongs are 12". He didn't strike at the prey, miss, and hit me. He turned from the prey and launched directly at me. My tongs could have been 25" and he still would have gotten me. Gloves should protect me though. Mine are thick, waterproof gloves you see fisherman use. They'll not only protect my hands from a bite, but also mask the heat from my hands, so he won't try. That's what I hope at least.

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Oh, okay- in that case, put your gloves in the freezer for a while first. :rofl: You know, they make super-long & well-padded fireplace gloves too...;) (I used to have some, but no longer need them.)

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Yesterday’s target training was a bit of a muddle. I got a pinkie to go with the hopper that I usually feed, so I had two opportunities. The pinkie went normally. He didn’t have a particularly strong reaction to the target, but it was good enough. For the hopper, I decided to set up a little foraging exercise for him, but I didn’t what to break with the target training, so I put the mouse in front of the target. Well, that didn’t work.

First, he is not used to taking two prey items. After the pinkie, he went into his hide to digest. He came out halfway a few times, flicking and yawning. I think he sensed the hopper, but he wasn’t interested enough to go hunting for it. After a while, I moved his hide closer to it. He came out of the hide completely but couldn’t find it. So, I gave up on foraging and decided to have another target training. That didn’t work either.

He saw the hopper as soon as I picked it up, so he ignored the target and went straight for it. I put the target directly between him and the hopper, but I don’t think he noticed it. I fed him the hopper anyway.

It was a muddle because I started target training, switched to foraging, and back to target training all with a snake that not adept at either. No wonder he was confused. You live, you learn. Even experienced trainers have bad sessions. At least he ate.

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I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person. This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?

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Originally Posted by plateOfFlan

I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person. This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?

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I agree- I think they actually do need to reconnect with our scent or touch- because snakes (at least most of them) don't appear to recognize us visually. Both scent & touch can really help- once you set a snake down, they're easily startled without us showing "I.D." again. They're quite different from most other animals-they take some getting used to.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree- I think they actually do need to reconnect with our scent or touch- because snakes (at least most of them) don't appear to recognize us visually. Both scent & touch can really help- once you set a snake down, they're easily startled without us showing "I.D." again. They're quite different from most other animals-they take some getting used to.

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They're definitely different, my hat's off to Homebody for going so deep on training. Even getting them used to handling is frustrating because it seems like you're often back at square one with a confused and frightened snake staring at you like they've never met you before in their life and have no idea what you intend to do with them.

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Originally Posted by plateOfFlan

I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person. This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?

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I don't think going into the hide caused the bite. I think a cool prey item and a warm hand confused him. I think it's pretty funny, actually. I'm dangling the pinkie right in front of his face. My mammalian mind is thinking, "It's right there! How can you not see that?!" But he's not a mammal, so he uses his heat pits to see. That's why he's confused. To his reptilian mind the prey looks like nothing. My hand on the other hand, that has potential. I just need to learn to see things from his perspective and that's going to take a while.

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Originally Posted by plateOfFlan

I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person. This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing.

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I agree. The first time Wiggles bit me I was changing his water. I carefully introduced myself, grabbed his water bowl, and went to fill it. He bit me when I put the water bowl back. In the thirty seconds it took me to fill the water bowl, he forgot who I was.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Oh, okay- in that case, put your gloves in the freezer for a while first. :rofl: You know, they make super-long & well-padded fireplace gloves too...;) (I used to have some, but no longer need them.)

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I think it's funny that you're suggesting I use "super-long & well padded fireplace gloves" with a snake that has a head smaller than the tip of my pinkie. It just goes to show how ferocious Antaresia can be, but a least he's not a retic. With apologies to all the retic lovers out there, but every time Wiggles bites me I think, "Thank God he's not a retic."

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I think it's funny that you're suggesting I use "super-long & well padded fireplace gloves" with a snake that has a head smaller than the tip of my pinkie. It just goes to show how ferocious Antaresia can be, but a least he's not a retic. With apologies to all the retic lovers out there, but every time Wiggles bites me I think, "Thank God he's not a retic."

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Well, it wasn't a real serious suggestion anyway...I was laughing. ;) But frozen gloves might feel good, especially in the summertime? :D

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well, it wasn't a real serious suggestion anyway...I was laughing. ;) But frozen gloves might feel good, especially in the summertime? :D

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I'm not sure it's a bad idea. My gloves stop at the wrist. What's to stop him from biting my forearm? Anyway, I'll give the fisherman's gloves and warmer prey a go. Welder's gloves or chainmail if that doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'm not sure it's a bad idea. My gloves stop at the wrist. What's to stop him from biting my forearm? Anyway, I'll give the fisherman's gloves and warmer prey a go. Welder's gloves or chainmail if that doesn't work.

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Yeah, that's how you know their dinner isn't warm enough- :D

You mentioned chainmail- somewhere there's a photo of that on this forum -someone posted. Most of the good ideas are already out there. :cool: