2021 0.1 Candoia paulsoni, Solomon Island ground boa, white phase - Inej

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Originally Posted by Starscream

I really, really want to change her substrate to something that's less dusty.

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If you like the idea of coco, consider Reptichip's "Microchip" size. I use it for neonate rainbow boas.

A fine-particle option that is better than coco is Zilla's "Jungle Mix". It is less dusty than coco fiber, and doesn't seem to have the ingestion/impaction risk of coco fiber, and handles moisture better.

Neither of these options have the main advantage of coco fiber, though, which is low price. Functional, cheap -- pick one. :)

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Originally Posted by Starscream

Inej turned two a couple days ago. She's still pretty tiny, but she seems to be a good weight. I've heard slower is better for boas, so hopefully I'm doing this right. She's moving to fuzzies (finally) next feeding. Work's been incredibly hectic, so I haven't had time to handle or really do anything with her beyond feeding and cleaning up after her.

I really, really want to change her substrate to something that's less dusty.

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As of late I've heard of a lot of people using organic topsoil as snake/reptile substrate, or using it in conjunction with something else (ex. cypress mulch, coco coir). One of the vet techs I work with recommended it and I plan on using it in a substrate mix for my ball python's new enclosure (although I'm sure it would be good for other snakes as well). I'd assume since it holds moisture so well without getting super damp and has such a small particle size that the risk of ingestion and inhalation would be minimal.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I usually try to feed my snake on top of his plastic hide so he doesn't swallow any substrate. My vet recommended I do that if I am not comfortable feeding him outside of his enclosure to minimize any risks.

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

As of late I've heard of a lot of people using organic topsoil as snake/reptile substrate, or using it in conjunction with something else (ex. cypress mulch, coco coir). One of the vet techs I work with recommended it and I plan on using it in a substrate mix for my ball python's new enclosure (although I'm sure it would be good for other snakes as well). I'd assume since it holds moisture so well without getting super damp and has such a small particle size that the risk of ingestion and inhalation would be minimal.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I usually try to feed my snake on top of his plastic hide so he doesn't swallow any substrate. My vet recommended I do that if I am not comfortable feeding him outside of his enclosure to minimize any risks.

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As someone that occasionally buys organic topsoil for growing my tomatoes, I have to say I'd never use that for snakes- because there's plenty of "organic" things that might be in there that I'd not want my snakes exposed to. What is intended to use outside in one's garden should not, in my opinion, be assumed to be safe for captive pets. Even with the FOOD we consume, there is a certain percentage of contaminants that are legally "allowed"- can you imagine what & how much is allowed in something we don't eat (like topsoil), & only use in the yard? :confusd: Don't confuse "organic" or "natural" with "safe", especially when it comes to the 24/7 contact by our small pets. As for what others are doing, remember that some people jump off bridges too... ;)

Both you & your pets will live much longer being "risk averse". Even the bags warn you to wear gloves when handling organic garden or topsoil. For one thing, it includes composted material, including manure. (And btw, as a gardener, I'm very much IN FAVOR of composting. Just to be clear.) One quick link-

https://www.nachi.org/compost-pile-h...%20the%20house.

In the wild, snakes certainly come into contact with all that "natural organic" stuff. But they don't literally sit in it all the time, and exposures are gradual so they can build up tolerance, unlike our sheltered pets.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

As someone that occasionally buys organic topsoil for growing my tomatoes, I have to say I'd never use that for snakes- because there's plenty of "organic" things that might be in there that I'd not want my snakes exposed to. What is intended to use outside in one's garden should not, in my opinion, be assumed to be safe for captive pets. Even with the FOOD we consume, there is a certain percentage of contaminants that are legally "allowed"- can you imagine what & how much is allowed in something we don't eat (like topsoil), & only use in the yard? :confusd: Don't confuse "organic" or "natural" with "safe", especially when it comes to the 24/7 contact by our small pets. As for what others are doing, remember that some people jump off bridges too... ;)

Both you & your pets will live much longer being "risk averse". Even the bags warn you to wear gloves when handling organic garden or topsoil. For one thing, it includes composted material, including manure. (And btw, as a gardener, I'm very much IN FAVOR of composting. Just to be clear.) One quick link-

https://www.nachi.org/compost-pile-h...%20the%20house.

In the wild, snakes certainly come into contact with all that "natural organic" stuff. But they don't literally sit in it all the time, and exposures are gradual so they can build up tolerance, unlike our sheltered pets.

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You do make some good and points which are definitely worth considering, however I do feel personally that the benefits outweigh the risk.

I have used "garden quality" organic coco fiber before for reptiles, amphibians, and snakes with no perceived ill affects. I mainly used it for my boyfriend's whites tree frogs, Vietnamese centipede, and his pacman frog. All are eating well and show none of the "crash and dying" characteristics I have seen before in sick/injured amphibians (it can be hard to explain to someone who has not seen it before, and I wish I had a way to describe it).

Obviously, coco fiber isn't topsoil, but it is still an example of something used both for reptiles and for gardening which is safe if used properly.

Another thing I do to minimize the risk for substrates or decor I plan to use for animals is completely dry them out before using, and depending on the specific item I may either boil it, bake it, soak it, or scrub with dish soap, vinegar, and chlorhexidine (virkon is better but very expensive, but I may buy some soon.) For leaves I boil them then bake. For "reptile safe" brand name substrates I let dry then leave it for a day or so before I add it. For none brand name, I may or may not bake it but it will be dried out for a longer period of time. I soak wood for 24 hours in a 1:10 bleach and water mix, then soak it in plain water and rinse well for at least 2-3 more days. If wood is going in an aquarium or with amphibians, I soak in plain water and just bake. For plastic or glass not going into an aquatic environment, I used vinegar, dish soap, and/or chlorhexidine. I use vinegar only if it will be going into an aquarium or water feature. I've found that this eliminates most pathogens. I also would never use store bought compost with an animal unless it had no manure or very little and was properly sanitized by myself.

Realistically, we don't know for a fact that reptile branded substrates haven't had exposure to chemicals as well. Same thing with aquarium vs regular silicone, reptile safe sand vs. play sand, etc. If precautions are taken and proper research is done then one can use top soil relatively safely. Also, my veterinarian has no issues with top soil herself as have none of the other DVMs I have worked with/talked to.

As of right now, I feel comfortable using it as part of a substrate mix for my animals but if at some point something comes out suggesting otherwise and my vets advise it, then I will switch. However, everyone is free to do what they want for their animals as long as it is done with careful consideration and research.

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

I love that wedge head - her face looks more grown-up now too

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

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Please be more careful when offering advice- & be very specific- because many others may read & believe what you say, so it can impact far more than just your own animals. If you wish to revise your post, all you have to do is ask. :cool: If you read the bags of topsoils sold for garden use, it will show in finer print (on the back of the bag) what's in it- many will include some percentage of peat, compost, manure, etc.

You can buy bags of peat moss in garden & feed stores, but that doesn't guarantee there's no contamination that would make it unsafe for housing your pets. That's why it costs more to buy these substrates in pet stores- it's meant for & considered safe for pets. The rest is meant for your yard. There can be a small difference, or a HUGE difference- unfortunately, you probably won't be able to tell by looking at it. But you generally get what you pay for, & in the long run, you won't save money if your precious pet gets sick.

Just being "primarily" peat moss doesn't make it a safe choice for pets. Would you buy & drink milk if the carton said "it's 99% milk? And only 1% is arsenic"...no problem, right? :rolleyes: :D And it's not necessarily a problem with the peat moss, but the processing- just like when you see food labels that warn consumers that nuts or other allergens are also processed in their facility. Remember that by law, some contamination is allowed, & they're not going to be concerned with harm if some buyers choose to use their products (topsoil, peat moss etc) for clearly off-label uses.

And all this is really going off topic for this thread...sorry.

I've personally had bad experiences with using topsoil -- one of the kinds I bought for my ball python's bioactive enclosure ended up having manure in it, and it gave us issues with scale rot. Would like to avoid that if at all possible. I'm not currently wanting to move Inej to bioactive; that'll likely be something I do for her adult enclosure, not now. I think peat moss would also pose a similar problem as the coco coir she's on now, therein it would be very dusty. I do use it for my bioactive mixes, but that's a different story. Thank you for the suggestions.

I did buy a different kind of substrate today, a bit more chippy. I personally don't worry about impaction, as my temperatures seem to be ideal for digestion. I've always fed in the enclosure with no issues and a fair amount of dirt getting on feeders without problem.

I see Bogertophis mentioned this is getting off topic, but the OP just continued the thought and there are still a few recommendations that very much need some terminological correction to avoid confusion and possible harm. So hopefully this is OK (mostly with Starscream, whose fine thread this is :) ).

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

Re-reading, I just realized I think I misunderstood you and the vet tech I know. I meant the topsoils that primarily consist of peat moss, not fill dirt or pure compost. It is just cheaper than buying the reptile specific stuff, especially if you are going bioactive. You could always buy plain peat moss as well.

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'Topsoil' is usually the name for field-stripped dirt. It is the top layer of natural soil, typically stripped from former prairies, fields/pastures, and so on. The solids in 'soil' are almost entirely inorganic material -- sand, silt and clay. Products based primarily on peat aren't soil by definition.

'Fill dirt' is subsoil, stones, sand, and clay. A general web search did not find any commercial prebagged availability. It is nothing like topsoil of any type. It is what you find when you dig down below the soil.

Peat-based bagged products on the general (gardening) market are typically called 'potting mix'. They also contain at least some of the following: "worm castings", "forest humus" (possibly municipal leaf compost), composted bark, rice hulls, vermiculite, perlite, organic or inorganic fertilizers, and "wetting agents" (either polyacrylamide or a surfactant). They're designed to have various benefits, none of which are based on herp husbandry concerns.

I've used a fair amount of plain peat moss for amending garden soil, and it is miserable stuff when allowed to dry, much dustier than coco fiber. If kept moist it isn't bad to work with; I much prefer it over coco fiber for a hibernating media for my box turtles, but that's about it.

Long time no see, but unfortunately this isn't a good update. She's been doing really well with a very aggressive appetite up until two weeks ago when she refused her first meal. Cleaned her cage, tried to feed her again afterwards with no success last week. I noticed a lump???? sort of???? on her neck last week, but I couldn't get any pictures of it and I thought maybe I was just seeing things from a bad angle. I checked on her yesterday to consider whether to attempt to feed her again and the lump hasn't gone down but appears to have gotten a little bigger, and she's started to act a little confused. She's not open-mouth breathing, but she does seem to have a little trouble telling up from down which is highly concerning. I called around and have a vet appointment for her for Saturday, which is the best I can do considering the holiday weekend (this kinda of thing always seems to happen at the WORST time, I swear).

The lump's also visible in pictures now, so hopefully the vet has some ideas on a treatment. I'm currently considering stomatitis as the cause, even if she doesn't appear to have the common symptoms of mouth rot. This seems like the kind of confusion I would expect from an infection, so maybe antibiotics will be enough to help.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...702_081457.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...702_081457.jpghttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...31b6984e80a8e&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8183986455f1b&

I'll keep you all posted on how things turn out, I'm just hoping I caught it in time before things get any worse.

Oh, I'm so sorry- we appreciate the update, but I truly hope you have a good outcome with her- that looks pretty serious from here. Up to now you've been doing so well with her, & she's what, only about 3 years old now?

Yeah, I'm pretty worried. Trying not to think worst case since there's nothing to be done until the vet appointment. She's definitely not comfortable, but she's responsive to stimuli and taking sips of water.

She's 3, yeah. There's no external injury from what I can tell, and her belly looks normal so not skin-related.

The vet appointment was yesterday. She doesn't have internal parasites, so that's good. He said it felt like a 'hard bony mass', and he couldn't get any fluid off of it, so they're doing an x-ray tomorrow as they couldn't on Saturday. She's being held there until then. Right now we're thinking it might be a piece of substrate that got stuck in her throat and she couldn't manage to get down. We'll know for sure tomorrow.

No one's said it with as many words to me, but I know that means surgery if it is a piece of substrate. I've set up her enclosure like she'll be in quarantine again, away from the other animals. He was concerned it would move down while she was with them, but considering its' been in the same spot for at least a week, maybe more, it's not going anywhere without help.

She was very, VERY feisty at the appointment and wanted very much to be left alone, which is obviously not something we could do. She nailed me once and tried several times with the vet until he could grab her by the head, and she nailed herself in the side as well, the poor thing. She's very confused and just wants to be left alone, and I can't blame her. Baby girl that thing's gotta go, and it's gonna suck before it gets better unfortunately.

Thanks for the update- I'm keeping your sweet noodle in my thoughts & sending the very best wishes for a successful recovery from whatever this turns out to be. :please:

Been a lot of ups and downs since my last update. We're not out of the woods yet, but I'm hopeful that she'll be able to live a full and happy life.

Last Monday she was x-rayed, and the results of that showed a spinal abnormality. I do not have a picture of the x-ray, but I did see it. The knot itself on the xray looked like a bomb went off in her spine -- there is nothing there. It's wild to me that she's able to move the back part of her body at all, and yet she does. The vet and I then decided to scope her to see if we could see anything that was obstructing her throat, so Friday she was sedated and scoped with a tiny fiber optic camera. The vet told me that there's scar tissue in that location, but she should still be able to swallow just fine. We're going to take it slow and easy with pinkie mice once she's recovered from her visit.

I picked her up Friday, and the poor thing was having a not-so-fun time recovering from sedation. Up until yesterday she didn't seem to realize she could move her lower half, so I had started mentally preparing for the worst. On Saturday she had managed to get herself upside down and was clearly very distressed, so I very, very carefully flipped her over so she wasn't flailing trying to right herself anymore. On Monday, she still hadn't recovered functionality and was starting to dry out, so I again moved her so she had better access to her water bowl.

Yesterday I went to do a mite treatment (being careful, I don't want to bring anything home with me) and was running my fingers down her sides, which seemed to remind her that the rest of her body exists. She was able to flex pretty much all of her body behind the knot. I have no idea how she's able to do that considering there aren't any bones connecting the two sides, according to the x-ray, but clearly the spinal cord wasn't damaged enough to impede movement, somehow.

She's spent nearly all her time since coming out of sedation trying to fix her jaw, as it's not closing entirely correctly. The scope must've knocked something out of place, I'm hoping she'll be able to fix it herself. With how long it took her to recover from sedation, it may still be affecting how she's reacting to her jaw. Considering how tiny and delicate she is, I don't know if the vet would be able to do anything to help.

Right now the leading theory on what happened to cause this: I added a wooden bridge with a flexible but heavy metal 'joint' for her to climb on, as I recalled that my ball python enjoyed at when she was about the same size. Inej is one thousand times more delicate than a baby ball python will ever be, so she likely got stuck under it and was able to pull herself out, but not before she damaged her spine. It's the only thing different that I added to her enclosure semi-recently, and the fact that it took this long for something to happen is in itself a miracle. As she spends a lot of time in the same spot over the course of several days, and was occasionally moving around afterwards, it didn't occur to me that anything was wrong until she refused food.

Even if I'd caught it sooner, I don't know if her prognosis would be better. It may even have healed as nicely as it did because it took me so long to notice and I wasn't handling her to cause further stress on her spine. At this point, it is up to her on whether or not she chooses to eat. I'm really hoping she'll pull through, but there is still a chance that she won't.

Hang in there. We're pulling for you.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes indeed, we're all pulling for her. Thanks for the detailed update.

Every time I've checked on her today, she's had her mouth closed, so she may have just figured that one out, thank goodness. One less thing to worry about. Here's some pictures as I just realized I hadn't provided any in any of my updates.

(Before vet visit)
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...792&height=594
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...792&height=594

Coming out of sedation from Friday.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...792&height=594

Today.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...a233182043f8a&

Getting through it one day at a time. Because she was drying out, I thought her comfort and humidity was more important than sterility. As long as she's comfortable, I'll keep doing that.

Such a pretty little snake- :please: I sure hope she gets thru this okay.

She passed away today. I'm not really in a place to discuss it right now, but I will be back at a later date to disclose what happened. Thank you all for your thoughts and support during this.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

(Rest in peace, little one...:snake: )

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Originally Posted by Starscream

She passed away today. I'm not really in a place to discuss it right now, but I will be back at a later date to disclose what happened. Thank you all for your thoughts and support during this.

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I remember that pain only too well. Take care of yourself.