Small amount of blood after defecating

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's wonderful news- especially that your vet has done this surgery before too. :gj: I would think that after the surgery though, she'll be on paper towels for a little while again? When are you having it done?

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Yes, I am planning on putting her back on paper towel after the surgery, and I really don't mind reassembling, disassembling, then reassembling again. I think I miss her old enclosure more than she does :D
I don't know exactly when we're going to do the surgery, but I'm assuming it'll be discussed after her test results come in later this week. Then there will probably be a bit of a wait depending on appointment availability.

I know what you mean- it's nice to watch our snakes enjoying their "home furnishings".

At least now you know what's going on- a little wait is no big deal, compared to the uncertainty you've had.

Her test results came back today. The cytology read as inflammation, nothing cancerous, but the bloodwork showed an elevated white blood cell count, so they think this might be associated with the inflamed scent gland and want to treat with injectable antibiotics first before we consider other treatments.

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Originally Posted by aurum

Her test results came back today. The cytology read as inflammation, nothing cancerous, but the bloodwork showed an elevated white blood cell count, so they think this might be associated with the inflamed scent gland and want to treat with injectable antibiotics first before we consider other treatments.

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Oh, your poor little snake! I'm not saying their advice doesn't make sense though- it does. I just feel bad for your little angel- hopefully this too shall pass soon, with her return to full HEALTH. :please:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Oh, your poor little snake! I'm not saying their advice doesn't make sense though- it does. I just feel bad for your little angel- hopefully this too shall pass soon, with her return to full HEALTH. :please:

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Yes, I also feel bad for her, it's been quite a long run figuring this out. Hopefully now that we have more insight things will progress faster since we're treating for the right cause. In a way though, this whole ordeal with her has been helpful putting reptile, and specifically snake, ownership into perspective for me. My species wishlist is definitely still extensive lol, and I do want more snakes in the future, but my realistic expectations for just how many I can handle, resource and time-wise, has scaled back quite a bit.

You didn't have such good luck with this one, in terms of "issues", but that's just it- we never know. Most of the time, most snakes are healthy for a long time. But we never know.

Wow! What a saga. Congrats on your vigilance and persistence with the vet to get to the etiology of this kingsnake’s condition. Curious as to the updates on this case. Has the vet recommended bumping up the optimal temperature in the enclosure to give the reptile immune system a boost? Also can you describe your setup for the reptile? Temps, warm side and cool side and any humidity levels you have? Are you working with a thermostat? :)

Also, consider more frequent water bowl changes because that will help eliminate a possible vector for contamination and illness to the reptile. Preferably daily but certainly every couple of days. Reptiles heal slowly. Partly due to being cold blooded and compromised immune systems.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...e53a8071a.jpegHere is one of Mr. Applegates bibles on the kingsnake and milksnake. Enjoy and keep us posted! :gj:

Hello everyone, it's been a while due life just taking me away from this forum. Sorry for the (long) wait, but essentially the medication was successful and we're no longer having problems with her irritated scent glands and passing blood.

However, unfortunately, the thing that brings me back here is that she's started biting her own tail recently, not unlike the snake in this thread (https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...iting-himself)). There's no weird stool or strangulation, but it's very concerning and stressful all the same. I don't know how long she might have been doing this for, but I found out because I woke up to a thrashing sound and found her biting her tail and acting as if she'd just gotten a mouse. I had no idea what to do, so I tried spraying her with water (like a cat I guess) but that wasn't very effective. Eventually she let go, but a few minutes later she did it again!

It looks kind of like a food response to me, she'll crawl over her tail, see it move, then get all excited and bite it, either tensing and thrashing afterwards or coiling and trying to constrict herself. Then after she lets go she is kind of quick and darty, very reactive to stimuli outside the tank, much like she acts when she knows there's a mouse coming. I don't know why there would be a sudden spike in food response out of no where though, I fed her two days ago, and generally she is on a schedule of one mouse the width of her body per week. I just have no idea what to when she does this, is there anything I can do to stop her? I tried picking her up too, and it didn't do much in terms of breaking the "food mode" behavior or uncoiling her.

I don't think the problem is overheating since my heat mat has a thermostat and the bottom of her enclosure is currently 83° right now. Her secondary heat source, a halogen light on a dimmer turned down as low as it can, gets about 88° on the basking platform, so I don't think that's the problem either. It's possible it could be worms/parasites in her GI tract, but she's already gone through tests and dewormers, so I don't know if it's realistic that she would've gotten them between then and now. The other option is internal pain, possibly from impaction, which bogertophis mentioned in the other thread I linked, and this seems most plausible to me. She's on a sand/soil substrate but there are some smaller wood chips on the surface that sometimes stick to the mouse when she eats. I never really thought this was a problem since I've seen other keepers' snakes ingest similar amounts from what just sticks to the prey item, and they don't seem to have any issues, but if it turns out this is the issue it would make the most sense to me.

The last thing I want to reiterate though is that, I know snakes don't exactly have clear pain responses, but her behavior seems most like she is looking for food. If I didn't know better, I would just think she was hungry and mistaking herself for food. The only weird thing is that it's happening over and over again, and she shouldn't have a reason to be this hungry. I hope this forum can help me out again, I just want her to be okay.

Have you been adding reptile probiotics to her food, after being on medication for infected scent glands? I sure would. It might be that she is feeling stomach irritation as "hunger" & let's face it, some king snakes are "eating machines" anyway- it doesn't take much for some of them to chase their tails (or their owners, lol).

I'd also stop using those wood chips as substrate, just in case she's swallowing some.

Does she have a big enough water bowl to bathe in? When she bites herself, what I'd do is quickly put her in the water bowl- it won't hurt anything but should "change the channel". Water spray was too subtle for this king snake, obviously. :rolleyes: She does sound like she has a hyper-active prey drive but I hope you can calm her down- I'd not want to see any snake of mine doing this either.

I've only had one snake* that ever bit their own tail- it was an elderly albino cal-king, & she only did it once. She seemed a bit senile att, & she passed away about a year after that.

*Another was a w/c turned over to me- sadly a brief acquaintance- a longnose snake that suddenly kept biting itself & then died quickly- apparently from parasites from their herp diet in the wild.

You've done everything possible for this snake, it's not fair that you've had so many crazy issues with one snake, & now this again? What an ordeal.

She bit her tail again this morning and has spent the last six hours wrapped around one of the fake plants in her enclosure. She noses the ground and her coils like she's looking for whatever she thinks she caught, and just now she even decided to bite her actually body after nosing it for a little. She's never had a food drive anywhere close to this before, it feels like it came out of nowhere.
(And now as I'm writing this post, she got so erratic and excited by the vibrations from the garage door opening, which is not a response she normally has)

The probiotics are a good call, I tried adding them to her water a while ago, but it didn't seem very effective so I stopped. I'll try putting them directly on her food. I am also planning to change her to paper towel and clean everything in there, just in case something smells like mouse. I'll email my vet as well, but I'm just not sure what they can really do about it besides another fecal and blood panel.

It is a little disappointing to be dealing with another weird issue, especially one with no clear cause. Ultimately though, I just want to give her a good life. She really is such a nice snake and pet otherwise.

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Originally Posted by aurum

She bit her tail again this morning and has spent the last six hours wrapped around one of the fake plants in her enclosure. She noses the ground and her coils like she's looking for whatever she thinks she caught, and just now she even decided to bite her actually body after nosing it for a little. She's never had a food drive anywhere close to this before, it feels like it came out of nowhere.
(And now as I'm writing this post, she got so erratic and excited by the vibrations from the garage door opening, which is not a response she normally has)

The probiotics are a good call, I tried adding them to her water a while ago, but it didn't seem very effective so I stopped. I'll try putting them directly on her food. I am also planning to change her to paper towel and clean everything in there, just in case something smells like mouse. I'll email my vet as well, but I'm just not sure what they can really do about it besides another fecal and blood panel.

It is a little disappointing to be dealing with another weird issue, especially one with no clear cause. Ultimately though, I just want to give her a good life. She really is such a nice snake and pet otherwise.

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No, don't dilute probiotics in her water (it's too weak, unless you temporarily use a really small water bowl so it's more concentrated- & they'll spoil, so you'll have to replace daily), or apply to the rodent's fur (most falls off). Before you feed, pry open the rodent's mouth & stuff in as much powder as you can, or if it will dilute in water, try injecting it into the rodent's body. I don't recall what size prey she's eating- there's not much room in a mouse's mouth, especially if not full-grown. (You could also liquify them just enough to tube-feed them into her, if you're comfortable doing that. You could make it a "meal" by mixing in some Carnivore Care or Gerber's Chicken baby food.)

Good luck- you've been so diligent to get her healthy. And her issues are quite unusual.

She's gotten a bit calmer over the last couple days, although she did try to give a small bite to her tail in the holding tub today while I was cleaning her tank. She's on paper towel now to keep her tail cleaner while it's wounded, and with less decor so she has less stuff to hit herself against if she starts thrashing again. I also sprayed some vetericyn on her tail and will continue to monitor her. I'm not sure what else I can do besides that. The vet emailed back, but all they said was that this can be caused by pain, which I already knew, and that they might need to see her in person to figure out what's going on.

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Originally Posted by aurum

She's gotten a bit calmer over the last couple days, although she did try to give a small bite to her tail in the holding tub today while I was cleaning her tank. She's on paper towel now to keep her tail cleaner while it's wounded, and with less decor so she has less stuff to hit herself against if she starts thrashing again. I also sprayed some vetericyn on her tail and will continue to monitor her. I'm not sure what else I can do besides that. The vet emailed back, but all they said was that this can be caused by pain, which I already knew, and that they might need to see her in person to figure out what's going on.

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I'm so sorry to hear this is still going on. :( Maybe she has some sort of neurological problem- like a phantom pain, maybe from a 'birth defect' or later injury that wasn't obvious & noticeable? :confusd:
Pain has always been the first thing that comes to my mind, but I wish it wasn't so hard to track down. Poor little snake!

Good news, she hasn't displayed any weird/overly reactive behavior since my last post. She went into shed almost immediately (probably her body trying to heal herself) so all she did was hide, then after she shed I fed her so she spent a couple days hiding and digesting, and now it's been a couple days of her exploring as usual and she seems to be back to normal. Assuming the behavior doesn't come back, I'm willing to write this off as some bizarre fluke since I really can't think of what would have caused it.

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Originally Posted by aurum

Good news, she hasn't displayed any weird/overly reactive behavior since my last post. She went into shed almost immediately (probably her body trying to heal herself) so all she did was hide, then after she shed I fed her so she spent a couple days hiding and digesting, and now it's been a couple days of her exploring as usual and she seems to be back to normal. Assuming the behavior doesn't come back, I'm willing to write this off as some bizarre fluke since I really can't think of what would have caused it.

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That's great to hear, I sure hope this is the "new normal". Maybe she had some sort of neurological pain that has resolved- perhaps if she was a human, she'd be a hypochondriac, who knows? :D

Well, out of nowhere she entered food mode overdrive again and just now bit her tail, except this time it was down her throat and she was trying to swallow it. It took spraying her in the face and dunking her head in the water bowl several times to get her to let go. I still have no idea what's wrong with her or what I can do about this, so taking her to the vet and getting some tests done is the only thing I can think of.
The problem is that I am leaving on a pretty long trip in a couple of days, and even if I get an appointment through the emergency room, I don't know if that will be enough time to figure everything out. Also, one of my parents will be home while I'm gone to take care of her, but if she ends up needing injections again or something, I don't know if that's something they can take care of. Any advice for how to move forward? I'm feeling kind of stuck.

I'm so sorry to hear this keeps happening with her. Many king snakes (including MBKs) have crazy-strong food drives- I'm wondering if she's just "wired a bit wrong", due to perhaps some genetic quirk- possibly some inbreeding, as some breeders do, either intentionally for optimal appearance, or without realizing it, what with all the captive-breeding done these days. I'm starting to doubt there's any solution from your vet at this point- you've ruled many things out.

When dogs chew on things they aren't supposed to, some use products that taste bad to make them stop- I'm trying to think of something you could apply SAFELY to her tail to make it really unappealing (taste bad)- otherwise, one of these days, she just may go too far at self-harming? King snakes do eat other snakes, & apparently her food drive is winning out over common sense or any perception of pain? :rolleye2:

Have you tried bathing her after she eats? Not immediately after, but maybe a day or so- to make sure all rodent scent (left from constricting prey) is gone from her body & her enclosure? Maybe clean her enclosure totally after each meal too?

Yeah, it sure lines up with her being a kingsnake, but she actually had a really calm food drive before this--basically nonexistent unless there was a mouse around. I feel like if this was because of genetic hardwiring it would have shown up earlier. Although for what it's worth she does have one "split" belly scale which is supposedly a sign of inbreeding.

Making her tail taste bad is a good idea. I am really concerned about her taking this too far after seeing her swallow her tail. All the sources I've read say that a snake truly trying to eat itself will probably die. It's hard thinking of what could go on there though, it needs to stick, preferably not rub off, and also not irritate the existing wounds.

I also thought that maybe she was smelling mouse somewhere and that's what was keeping her in food mode, but she ate 8 days ago and was acting normal up until now, when any mouse smell should theoretically be weakest, especially since I'm cleaning her enclosure throughout the week whenever she poops. I fed her today as well right after she bit herself and she's acting the same before and after she ate. Baths and more thorough cleaning are definitely worth a try though, they certainly can't hurt. Just not sure how it's going to go with me not at home since my parents basically never deal with the snake.

As for the vet, I also have no idea what they can do or find in a phys exam that will be new, but part of me is wondering if maybe somehow in the past couple months she contracted some kind of parasite and ordering yet another fecal could be worth it.

It's up to you if you want another fecal done. I really don't know what to tell you at this point- & if I get any great ideas for a non-toxic substance that would taste bad on her tail, I'll let you know- I'm sure there must be something that would be a turn-off? Do you grow tomatoes, by any chance? I do, & when I touch the leaves or stems, I get the strong scent of green tomato plants on my skin- something like that might work? I don't think it would be harmful, or wash off easily, & hopefully might be a deterrent. All you can do is try- good luck!

As far as her having a calm food drive before this- maybe that's because she's been fed rodents & she truly prefers snake, or at least something other than what she's been eating? :O But if that was the case, even if you fed her "feeder snakes" it probably wouldn't stop her "tail fixation". :confusd: Goofy snake. I've had a couple of MBKs in the past, never had this problem with them- but that was a long time ago- & since then, they've been breeding them for a more perfect jet black appearance (mine were not so perfect)- so perhaps they've also retained traits that would not have survived in the wild. That's the problem with breeding so many for the pet trade- we help them along, breeders are chosen for appearance, & none are weeded out as they are in the wild. If you bought yours from a breeder, have you tried talking with them?

Actually, just to clarify- it's not so much that something you apply to her tail has to "taste bad" but just so long as it distracts her & keeps her from thinking "can I eat this?" ;) Green tomato leaves/stems are fairly pungent & as far as I can tell, smell nothing like anything a king snake would eat. There may be other substances too, anyone have any other ideas?

I just got back from my trip, and from what my parents have observed she's been acting normal, although today I already saw her try to bite herself a couple times while I was cleaning her tank. No latching on like before, but it seems like this behavior might not be something that just goes away. I also did end up making an appointment with the vet. Even if they don't have any answers, I want them to check on the scent glands she was having a problem with before because I'm wondering if they might've gotten inflamed again and that's what's hurting her?

Bogertophis, the green tomato plants sound like a great idea, but unfortunately we don't grow any vegetables ourselves. Hopefully the veterycin can work somewhat as a deterrent. Having a breeder to talk to would probably help as well, but I bought her from an expo and didn't end up getting the seller's contact info, so I'm out of luck there. Something to learn from if I ever buy from expos again.
(Also I don't know if you were under the impression that she is an MBK, but she is a speckled kingsnake ;))

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Originally Posted by aurum

I just got back from my trip, and from what my parents have observed she's been acting normal, although today I already saw her try to bite herself a couple times while I was cleaning her tank. No latching on like before, but it seems like this behavior might not be something that just goes away. I also did end up making an appointment with the vet. Even if they don't have any answers, I want them to check on the scent glands she was having a problem with before because I'm wondering if they might've gotten inflamed again and that's what's hurting her?

Bogertophis, the green tomato plants sound like a great idea, but unfortunately we don't grow any vegetables ourselves. Hopefully the veterycin can work somewhat as a deterrent. Having a breeder to talk to would probably help as well, but I bought her from an expo and didn't end up getting the seller's contact info, so I'm out of luck there. Something to learn from if I ever buy from expos again.
(Also I don't know if you were under the impression that she is an MBK, but she is a speckled kingsnake ;))

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Oh sorry, I was under the impression that she's an MBK- maybe I confused with another thread, but it doesn't matter in terms of care & advice, not one bit. Ask your vet what you might safely use topically that would be a taste "turn-off".
Or post a free ad, or ask around, or go to a farmer's market- for someone who grows tomatoes to share a piece of stem they don't need- hey, if you were closer...https://fonts.gstatic.com/s/e/notoem...0/1f345/72.png