Brooks Kingsnake strange digestion and behavior? (diarrhea and biting himself)

So how'd it go this morning? Find out anything, or still waiting for tests? Did he have to "stay over"?

UPDATE:

I was very happy with my latest vet appointment. There was a lot more communication and a lot was learned about his health.

It seems to be more of a chronic infection (lower-grade) from the bacteria he was previously diagnosed with. It appears that something is still fighting back in his body. Our vet discussed with other exotic pet vets and a few have seen similar symptoms and occurrences. The tail biting might be a pain response, and the twisting and strangling episodes could also be from infection. He did have one slight episode there where he knotted himself but didn't bite, and he got out of it and was normal after that. The vet also suggested that maybe he could start eating large rat pups instead of large mice, or give him two mice in one feeding (which he eats pretty quickly).

He did get an x-ray and some blood tests and received the following results:

X-Rays - Everything seemed fine: could see bones from his last meal, minimal to no gas, no obstruction or other masses, normal heart size, nice and clear lungs, and no signs of arthritis or bone issues.

Blood Tests - His white blood cell could was slightly elevated. He is not anemic or anything either.

He did pass stool there, but a fecal exam wasn't needed. There were also no other tests that needed to be sent to a lab (such as neurological diseases).

He was given another bottle of his previous oral antibiotics (which was 0.15mls), but now it lasts a month long and gets 0.05mls every other day to not stress him out. I gave him his first dose just now. He goes back in a month for a checkup.

Side Note: My snake is very adamant about keeping his jaw shut when I try to open his mouth (takes about 10 minutes or so). I have previously tried to enter the syringe from the side and move closer to the front, but I am afraid I will hurt his teeth or gums. There was a tiny bit of blood too from his irritated gums, so I am afraid to continue doing it that way. I did later get a very thin (and cleaned) paintbrush, and he opened up not too long after. Does anyone know a more efficient way of doing this? The paintbrush method seems pretty good for now, and he opened up much faster without bothering him too much.

Right now he is just exploring in his tank. Hoping the best for him! :)

I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet - are your heat mat and heat lamp regulated by a thermostat? Overheating can cause neuro issues.

I was also thinking of heat as a problem, but it never occured to me as a potential neurological threat.

Neither the heat mat or the 50w lamp have a thermostat. I do have thermometers on both ends of the cage, but they are high up (i'm not sure how much a difference that makes or which placement is more efficient). He doesn't seem to stay on the cold side or spend a lot of time at his water bowl. In fact, he likes to spend time in his little cave that is over the heat mat, especially after eating. He does spend time in both hides though.

Should I get a thermostat for all my heating devices? Should I have both a 50w lamp (only during the day) and a heat mat, or is that too much? I originally got him the heat mat because I was scared he was too cold at night. He was using a 150w lamp at first when he didn't have the heat mat.

Thanks for the concern! :)

Unregulated a heat mat can get hot enough to burn and kill your snake so yes, it needs a thermostat. You need a temperature gun or IR point thermometer to read the surface temperature of the glass over top of the heat mat.

Neuro issues are one symptom of brain damage from being overheated.

Ok, I will look into it. :gj: Do I need a single thermostat for each heat source or is there some way to connect them all to one? I also keep the heat mat under the glass if that makes any difference, and he doesn't burrow much.

Each heat source should be regulated by a thermostat. Some higher-end thermostats can regulate multiple heat sources.

Should I have multiple heat sources such as the 50w bulb and the heat mat, or just 1? I have a boa who uses a heat mat alone and has a light that barely gives off heat, but this is just for day and night cycles I guess.

It would help to know a lot more about your set-up- this is a glass tank? what size (dimensions L x W x height)? What are the temperatures inside...the coolest end, the warmest end, & overall "ambient" air temp? King snakes don't need a basking spot per se- if your room is cold, some extra overhead warmth from a light or CHE can be helpful, but keep in mind that a king snake doesn't need temps. as warm as BPs. The warmest part should be 85-88*, the cool end can be 70-75*, & at night, the tank can drop to 65-70** as long as the day temps. are up where they should be. King snakes are burrowers, I much prefer using UTH for them as I do for all my snakes, plus supplemental overhead light/heat as needed. (FYI, my home thermostat is set to 70* though- not everyone's is.)

It does sound to me like you may been overheating him- unless your tank is really large &/or deep, overhead wattage can really overheat it quickly. Personally I prefer lights to just be on rheostats (lamp dimmers) because I dim them way down & have done this for years (& watch temperatures), & never would I use 150 watts! My largest tanks have 40-50 watts dimmed way down (& adjusted as needed). Snakes ALWAYS NEED at least half the cage with little or no heat so they can safely get away from excessive warmth. You should have all heat mats regulated by thermostats for sure.

Normal room light is enough for either of your snakes to have a "photoperiod"- they don't appreciate bright lights either.

He lives in a 40 gallon breeder (36x18x16). My house temp is usually at 74, but it's been colder because the temperatures outside have been colder. My thermometers are kind of trash and both sides say pretty much the same thing. I do have the fan on at night, so I don't know how much that affects anything. I do have the thermometers higher up and not on his ground level, and has a full 24 qt bag of aspen in there. He used to love to burrow, but he has stopped recently. When he got on the antibiotics, he did start burrowing again, but I don't know if that was his way of hiding or what.

His lamp turns on and off at 9, and right now both sides say 70-75 ish, but they are high up and might be inaccurate. I do keep his water on the cool side with no heat and his warm side on the opposite side. Do you think I should just have a UTH (and a non heating light)? I feel so irresponsible that I haven't heard much about reptile thermostats before, and that I might be putting him in danger. :(

I've also heard that some snakes could bite themselves when they are hot. When I take him out, he usually feels normal (a little cool) or slightly warm when he is over his warm spot. He doesn't show any signs that he is trying to escape from the heat. The biting could be because of infection, but I just want to make sure I am doing whatever's best to keep him healthy and happy.

(Also, is there any specific brands that are more efficient than others?)

I went back to your first post & see that you did say this is a 40 gal. tank & ambient temp. is 74* so I think that's why your set-up didn't set off any "alarm bells" to me for excessive heat, but I do have to wonder what temps you're getting under that light & over your heat pad. UTH "heat pads" come in different sizes & wattages too, btw.

All heat mats really MUST be regulated, some get to 110* or more. They can also overheat (& become unsafe!) if not installed with some "breathing room" underneath the tank (assuming tank is sitting on solid furniture & not on an open-centered aquarium stand), or if the substrate is so thick inside the tank that it acts as an insulator (not allowing the heat to rise effectively as it should into the tank). There's a 'art' to setting up tanks for snakes...;) And it's hard for anyone to tell you exactly what you need because every room (or home) temperature & set-up is a little different from the next, & different species of snakes need different heat levels too. If your room is cooler you can also insulate 3 sides of the glass tank & partly under the bottom too. Many ways to make it all work.

Both of the UTH have breathing room, and I got a little shelf specifically built for that (homemade, kind of ghetto). I might get one of the thermostats with 2 plug ins for both tanks. I'll also see if I can check the temps of ground level and of the heat mat. I don't know if I should just ditch the lamp in general.

This may be unimportant, but would a thermostat need to be adjusted daily? Hopefully it won't catch on fire, because my cords for everything are behind the tanks, which makes them hard to get to.

I am planning on plugging in a double thermostat for the mats and a timer for both lights if I get another one. The lights are just a preference of mine.

I might make another thread for a review of my setup (critique will be very welcome).

You want to take the temperatures on the floor of the cage, unless your snake can fly or hover? :D

Fans don't really affect the temperature- they do stir the air so if there are warmer & cooler areas, they'll mix & normalize- mostly they make you feel cooler because moving air evaporates sweat.

You only just joined this site- people talk here about thermostats all the time...so don't beat yourself up, at least you got here & you're listening & learning. :gj:

He might be burrowing more since being on antibiotics because he's trying to hide from people giving him medications, lol. Burrowing feels more "secure", so yeah, I think he's hiding. ;)

He NEEDS the UTH for digestion, it's more efficient for digestion, what some call "belly heat" for ground dwelling snakes. Make sure that there is at least one hide over the UTH area, and one where there is no heat, because if a snake has only one hide, snakes will choose the sense of security over the proper temperature for digestion. (& that can make them regurgitate their meal if they're too cool to digest)

Lights are optional if there are windows in the room (ie. some amount of daylight)- if needed for warmth, use incandescent or CHE, but use a dimmer ("rheostat") at the very least & check the temperatures; if more heat isn't needed, use fluorescent or LED- they don't add much warmth. (Judge for yourself if he likes or hates the light- many snakes don't care for bright lights.)

You mention he sometimes feels warm when you pick him up (depending on where he was). Just something to keep in mind here: we are 98.6* roughly, so for our snakes to feel warm to us, they might be TOO warm for them...see what I mean? If his max. temp. is 89*, he's going to feel cooler to you, because you're warmer. Keep this in mind also if you ever need to "bathe" (soak) a snake- use a thermometer to check the water, because what feels warmish to him will feel too cold to you- and if it's warm to you, it's too hot for him.

FYI- I'm inclined to think he has something internal (infection or whatever) that's making him bite himself, but take the actual temperatures right OVER your UTH & right UNDER your light just to be safe, ok? And control that UTH! I've not heard of snakes biting themselves for being too hot, but heat injury can result in neurological symptoms for sure. (like loss of balance, or corkscrewing)

UTH "air space" for safety- FYI, the way I do it is to install rubber weather-stripping on the bottom edges of all my tanks, & leave a couple 1" gaps to breathe. This also keeps my tanks from sliding off their cabinets- I found that very useful when I lived where we had many earthquakes (CA) but even now that I no longer live there, you never know. There is more than one way to do this, yours is likely just fine. You'd be surprised how many ppl don't read the UTH instructions, much less follow them. ;)

Thermostats do NOT need adjusted daily, but you should test them out without your snake in the tank (for safety), & it's optimal to do it for like a week before a snake moves in, as it takes time for UTH to get up to speed (so to speak) and time for you to adjust them. Anyway, the whole idea is that once a t-stat is set, it should keep the temperature where you want it. (Assuming your power stays on, of course.)

Good idea, another thread for set-up review. :gj:

I might go ahead and wait til the morning when the heat lamp has been on for a little while to check the temps. I could also take temps when it is not on, but I don't want to potentially bother him right now (I bet he is hiding :P). He used to be a burrower, especially when he was younger.

I have since got him more secure little hides on each side of the tank just incase stress is involved in any of this. He seems to like them much better, because before that, his were pretty big and took up a lot of space in his tank, which may have been less secure to him. They were also very smooth, which isn't too good for shedding. When he is shedding, I usually put his old water bowl in there (without the water) because it is rough and rocky, and he loves to rub his head on it when he sheds.

After he eats, he usually chills in his hide above the UTH, which sounds good for his digestion. I also have belly heat for my boa because she doesn't climb much.

For the lights, I won't get them super bright, just something dim that I can see him better with that provides little to no heat. I have my blinds open under some light curtains, which lights up the room, but not too bright.

I get what you mean when I said he feels warm sometimes. I will make sure to pay more attention to that whenever I need to take him out.

For keeping the UTH from falling, I do have foil tape that holds it up, but I do need to replace it every once in a while when it starts to hang off. Both tanks have a lot of space underneath the UTH to prevent from heat buildup.

You'd have to buy a lot of hides to always have the "right size" for a growing snake- what you can do is wad some paper up & make large ones cozier until they grow into them.

Rheostats (lamp dimmers) are very handy & save energy too- I assume there's only one light & it's on the warm side of the tank? You really do need to find out the temperature under the light. Many of my lights are 25 or 15 watts & I still dim them a lot- incandescent bulbs really heat up, & I'm using the reflector domes, of course. My rat snakes like to bask on their branches under them.

Ha, I know what you mean about having to re-tape the UTH once in a while. Helps to clean the glass first with isopropyl alcohol to remove all traces of fingerprint oils.

Rheostats are a great emergency/interim measure if your house ambient temperatures don't swing, and they're readily available at big box hardware stores like Lowes or Home Depot (look for a "lamp dimmer"). They won't keep a heat source at a constant temp like a thermostat will but they will help prevent it from getting dangerously hot.

For a king snake I'd use either a deep heat projector (DHP) or ceramic heat emitter (CHE) instead of a bulb as you can set them and leave them on all the time; they don't emit light. They also last a lot longer than bulbs - think years not months - and all of the energy they draw becomes heat, so while they're more expensive initially they will save you money over time. The room ambient light is fine for a day/night light cycle.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

For a king snake I'd use either a deep heat projector (DHP) or ceramic heat emitter (CHE) instead of a bulb as you can set them and leave them on all the time; they don't emit light. They also last a lot longer than bulbs - think years not months - and all of the energy they draw becomes heat, so while they're more expensive initially they will save you money over time. The room ambient light is fine for a day/night light cycle.

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^This
I just pulled my receipt up for the last 100w Zoomed CHE I got and it was only $32 here in Georgia, and that thing has been running on a stat non-stop for the past 6 months with no issues. I check temps with my infrared gun in the morning when I start work and in the afternoon when I shut down and other than that I don't have to worry too much about it. Like Bcr said, if you have a window in your room/reptile room the ambient light should be enough. I just open the blinds in the morning and the way the sun comes over my house creates a very natural day/night cycle in my office for all the animals.

So if I did get a CHE or a DHP, would I have it with the heat mat (regulated with a thermostat of course)? Would I have to hang either by something or would they just sit on top of the screen?

Also the light that comes through my window does provide a good amount of natural light. :)

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Originally Posted by mopuim

So if I did get a CHE or a DHP, would I have it with the heat mat (regulated with a thermostat of course)? Would I have to hang either by something or would they just sit on top of the screen?

Also the light that comes through my window does provide a good amount of natural light. :)

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I don't keep kings so I'll let someone with more experience answer if you need both for your animal, but with my royal I use both, regulated with the thermostats of course. The mat gives me a nice warm hide and hot spot, and the CHE keeps my ambient temps under control throughout the entire enclosure.

The CHE/DHP would replace the overhead light. You shouldn't need a UTH for a king snake. Ball pythons need to be warmer so in a cool room they would still need a UTH.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

So if I did get a CHE or a DHP, would I have it with the heat mat (regulated with a thermostat of course)? Would I have to hang either by something or would they just sit on top of the screen?

Also the light that comes through my window does provide a good amount of natural light. :)

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FYI, I've been at this a long time & tend to be "old school"- still using UTH for example. We members here don't all use the same things nor do things exactly the same way- but we can share what we do & know, & let YOU decide what's best in your situation. To that end, I was just looking up the DHP- something I've never used, but it looks interesting for sure. Check it out & watch their video below. BTW, Reptile Basics is one of several good sources of equipment, another is the Bean Farm- yes, you read that right, lol. https://www.beanfarm.com/

https://www.reptilebasics.com/heat-e...20heat%20lamps.

So I put one of the thermometers straight under the the lamp on the surface of the bedding, and it is slightly above 80 (about 82).

The temperature inside his little cave over the heat source is about 85 (probably because of the thick layer of substrate). He has one of those caves that you can take the top off, and it is a little bit lower than ground level (dug a little bit into the substrate). If that is too hot, I could always just put the hide on top.

The temp of the heat mat was slightly above 100F :(. I tested it by taping the thermometer to the heat mat because I don't really know a more efficient way of doing that.

I was aware that both were not necessary, but I just had worries. I like the sound of the CHE or the DHP that seem to penetrate a little more with heat. If I do have one of those plus the UTH, would it get too hot or would I just regulate it with the thermostat? I also watched the video for the deep heat projector, and it does seem pretty good. I really like those bulb guard cage that keep the heater from just sitting on the top of the screen (I know they have them in general, but I have never got one). I do have one of those black lamp cover things, so would I just need the bulb (for ceramic)? Also, what is the difference between a regular bulb and a ceramic bulb thing? (Sorry for so many questions :))

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I really like those bulb guard cage that keep the heater from just sitting on the top of the screen (I know they have them in general, but I have never got one). I do have one of those black lamp cover things, so would I just need the bulb (for ceramic)? Also, what is the difference between a regular bulb and a ceramic bulb thing? (Sorry for so many questions :))

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I apologize if I misunderstand your question, but if you're asking about the difference between a regular old heat bulb and a ceramic heat emitter, the regular bulbs obviously produce light while the ceramic does not. That's the big benefit of the CHE is that you have a heat source that you can leave on 24/ (controlled by a thermostat of course) and it won't interfere with your snake's day/night cycle. Again though, I don't keep kings, so I don't want to give you husbandry advice, I just wanted to try to help explain the equipment portion.

And don't apologize for asking question, this forum is fantastic and it's a excellent source of information. Like Bogertophis said though, not everyone here keeps their animals the same, so it's up to you to explore the options available and find what works best for you and your animal.

The main reason I got the mat was because I was scared he got too cold at night, and a CHE would fix that problem without being a disturbance to my sleep. It sounds pretty efficient to me, but I am not sure that if I relied on CHE, I would need a heat mat as well (or have both but well regulated). I see a thermostat as a necessity, so I will get on that. I really appreciate all of the potential options given, and I will try to see what will fit my needs and what is best for my snakes. :)

It depends on your room, like what some of the other guys have said, just depends on what works for you. I have a ball python and leopard geckos, which obviously require different temps than a king, but I use both with them because my reptile room will drop into the low 70s at night, UTHs just give me that extra layer of.. I guess peace of mind that there's a warm spot in there that they can go if they need to. Plus if one heat sources goes out during the night I have a second running to they don't get too cold.

This mixed with good thermostats that turn off if something happens to prevent overheating, vs failing wide open, doesn't 100% eliminate any worry I have for my crew, but it makes it where if I wanted to stay gone overnight for some reason I wouldn't stress too much about how my pets are doing.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

The main reason I got the mat was because I was scared he got too cold at night, and a CHE would fix that problem without being a disturbance to my sleep. It sounds pretty efficient to me, but I am not sure that if I relied on CHE, I would need a heat mat as well (or have both but well regulated). I see a thermostat as a necessity, so I will get on that. I really appreciate all of the potential options given, and I will try to see what will fit my needs and what is best for my snakes. :)

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We can't really answer that- is his tank near the floor or higher up. Even with your room/home set to 74*, it's chillier near the floor. Only YOU can take the temps. IN the tank where it matters.
And btw, king snakes are more resilient that your boa, but then again, your king isn't quite well either, so that's a consideration too. If he is fighting off a virus, you don't want him chilled either.

You also want to double check the temps over UTH, not just on the substrate, but push the substrate back (as your snake might) & make SURE he cannot be injured by excessive surface temperatures. I've never had that problem with any of my regulated UTHs, & also, colubrids are less likely to sit there cluelessly too long the way BPs might- I think because BPs are heavy-bodied & it takes a while for the excessive heat to really "register" with them, & by then, it can be too late.

With the DHP, I'm NOT sure how much heat that puts in the tank, or if it's just heating up the reptile, which is how they make it sound? So ask the sources who sell them, if no one here knows for sure. So far I've not heard of anyone using them, but maybe bcr229 does, as she brought it up? In general, heat from above isn't as efficient as from underneath, since heat rises, but don't think I'm not open to the new technology- I'm glad to see more options, actually- reptiles in nature do bask, & the sun is overhead, after all, heating from above as well as the ground surfaces.

Bottom line, any of these things can be adjusted to work for you & your snakes as well as your budget (most everyone has a budget too)- but heed the warning to regulate whatever you're using- that's important. Apart from that, you seem quite capable of making good choices & proper adjustments- I have faith in you, & I don't often say that, lol, but you've shown a serious interest. :gj:

So I just dug up the thermometer I buried under his cave on the warm side over the heat mat, and it said 110F :(. He usually doesn't burrow over there, but I am definitely getting a thermostat for that, because that seems far too hot.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

So I just dug up the thermometer I buried under his cave on the warm side over the heat mat, and it said 110F :(. He usually doesn't burrow over there, but I am definitely getting a thermostat for that, because that seems far too hot.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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And that's exactly why we "nag" around here. That's way too hot. You cannot leave it like that- unplug it & fix (regulate it) A.S.A.P.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

With the DHP, I'm NOT sure how much heat that puts in the tank, or if it's just heating up the reptile, which is how they make it sound? So ask the sources who sell them, if no one here knows for sure. So far I've not heard of anyone using them, but maybe bcr229 does, as she brought it up?

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I use a DHP for my carpet python. It's mounted so the heat lamp housing is about 10 inches above the plexiglass top of his enclosure. The IR radiation penetrates the plexi rather well, so it heats up his driftwood "jungle gym" under it quite nicely. Being a semi-arboreal critter, he likes to perch there while digesting, and the heat that radiates from the driftwood helps with the ambient temp in the enclosure. I think CHE's work the same way.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I use a DHP for my carpet python. It's mounted so the heat lamp housing is about 10 inches above the plexiglass top of his enclosure. The IR radiation penetrates the plexi rather well, so it heats up his driftwood "jungle gym" under it quite nicely. Being a semi-arboreal critter, he likes to perch there while digesting, and the heat that radiates from the driftwood helps with the ambient temp in the enclosure. I think CHE's work the same way.

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Thanks. I suspect my spotted python (& some others) would enjoy the DHP- I may have to try one.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Thanks. I suspect my spotted python (& some others) would enjoy the DHP- I may have to try one.

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Bear in mind if you do use it that regular glass blocks a good bit of IR radiation, but plexiglass and acrylics transmit it.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Bear in mind if you do use it that regular glass blocks a good bit of IR radiation, but plexiglass and acrylics transmit it.

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How about thru the screen (welded wire) top? Any problem with that?

Never tried it. None of my enclosures are tanks with mesh tops. The tank for the carpet python is a 125-gal aquarium that I got free because one of the side panels was broken. We replaced it with plexi and had plexi tops made for it. It actually has two UTH's - one under the warm side hide, and one under a huge ceramic water bowl so the inside humidity stays up. The DHP bumps the ambient temp since it's downstairs and our house can get cold in the winter, as well as providing a basking area while perching.

This is an update if anyone is interested:

He's been doing well, no biting or getting hungry too quick. I fed him 2 days ago, and he hasn't passed stool yet. He is not a fan of the oral antibiotics, but we're getting there. It is his 3rd day today. It does tend to irritate his gums because he is very adamant about keeping his jaw shut. I've tried a thin handle of a paintbrush and a bent bobby pin instead of the little syringe, but it is more of a hassle to go from one to the other. He did get a little bit on his mouth and when I put him back into his tank today, he started rubbing his head everywhere. I hope it doesn't irritate his skin, but he seems better now. He usually doesn't get much out of his mouth. :)