OMG disaster.

The truth is I was a little lax in my own home and my friend has lots of experience. When I do shows I am much more cautious about what the animals are doing. I almost never have 2 out at the same time at home and will never from here on. As for my experience, well I have been studying my entire life. I have successfully kept them for the past 2 years as a result of the research I have done and with little issue till now. I am not perfect and any keeper can make mistakes if they don't stay on their toes. I have seen videos of people who keep HOTS get laxed and pay a much heavier price than I did learning from this one issue. Everyone in the hobby knows that at any time they are wild creatures with wild emotions and instincts that they act on in a moment notice. We all accept that as we keep them as pets.

I do think you are coming from a good place in the things you have said her and thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Thank you for the courage to share your mistake and the consequences. It IS a learning experience.

I did not realize you are relatively new to the hobby, unless that one poster is mistaken about you.

And you are right, a lot of learning is NOT about book learning and reading. Its hands on practice. That said, if I was you, I would not take these animals to any educational or otherwise "show and tell". And I'm saying this with all the respect.

Those giants are no walk in the park, many times the power of them is not fully realized until something bad happens. It takes years of practice to truly learn to read the body language. It takes a very long time to truly get to know your own animal. And even then, you can NEVER predict what they will do 100%. The risk is simply not worth it. Your animals are all still fairly young. They are going through hormonal changes. If one of them were to cause a bite or worse, bite and wrap, you may find yourself sued for all you have and future wages. For pain, suffering and mental anguish. And don't think it cannot happen.

All in all, you were lucky that your animals "only" engaged each other, as bad as that was. You were lucky there is no permanent damage. You already know it is breeding season, I'm fairly certain a inner voice already told you this wasn't a good idea, no matter what. Even if 4 feet apart. They cross this distance in less then a second.
You already know you shouldn't be handling a snake that is on feeding strike. No matter why the fast is going on. That goes for any species.

I'm not trying to stomp on you. I'm sure you feel bad enough.

If you want to live and learn with your giants, keep them close, don't share them with strangers or at any kind of show and tells.

If you want to do this (and I have quite a bit) you take snakes you have had for a long while. Very established animals. Animals that can not do true harm. Even then, you have to be aware.

Education can quickly turn to the opposite when stuff goes wrong. Let your giants grow. Grow with them. Learn about them by handling and keeping them for a few years. Learn from your mistakes.
Its one thing to have a Ball Python or even a Carpet Python go spazzy. When its a giant, things can get very ugly, very fast.

just my 2 cents :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

So I take it that retics are willing to consume other snakes then? A "whatever prey fits" outlook? Not saying that they'd go out of their way to eat another
snake, but it's been my impression that the giant snakes cannot afford to be fussy eaters, and so they aren't. That makes them very dangerous for us too,
I'd have to say, since snakes are never logical about the size of prey they pounce on, it's only after it stops moving that they find out if it slides down or not.

(Please be careful...)

---

True that retics care about satisfying hunger more than if it fits to go down. They are true powerhouses and can do serous damage faster than we can react. When she lunged she pushed me back with the force of the strike. Never underestimate them on any level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snakeboyaz

Glad Monty is ok. I only ever have one out at a time, for no other reason than I'm the only handler in my house. Never would have imagined a retic would look at another snake as food. I'm glad you shared this, I'm more inclined to call this a crap happens event than a mistake. We all have had bad things happen or made mistakes in this hobby and the more we're willing to share the better I think.

---

Thank you. Please share things you learn as well. I will never scold you for it. Might even laugh with you about it if no one is hurt.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dianne

I’ve been keeping snakes since 1991, and in that time have had several opportunities in that time period to experience bites with and without constriction....sometimes my fault, sometimes not. I have found rubbing alcohol to work every time by actually pouring a little around their mouth at the bite. They will spit you out with this method, and as long as you don’t try to pull away the cuts are less damaging. They will drool quite a bit initially, but it doesn’t do any damage (confirmed by my reptile specialist vet), but evidently tastes like �� which is what makes it so effective.

Just for the record, I’ve tried this out with a 13’ 90lb burmese python that grabbed my hand when I reached into her enclosure to take her out for cleaning. I didn’t realize she was in shed when I touched her, and she was startled and bit. She didn’t constrict, but she didn’t let go either until Mom poured the rubbing alcohol around her mouth. Lesson learned, they are fast and still wild, no matter how much of a baby they normally are with you.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

...When she lunged she pushed me back with the force of the strike. Never underestimate them on any level.

---

I won't ever have a giant snake so that's no problem...;) I think they're a bit much as "pets", the same way I don't see lions replacing house cats.
No matter how magnificent, there comes a point where people either can't or don't control them, & "stuff happens". Anyway, I'm not the one who underestimated. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I won't ever have a giant snake so that's no problem...;) I think they're a bit much as "pets", the same way I don't see lions replacing house cats.
No matter how magnificent, there comes a point where people either can't or don't control them, & "stuff happens". Anyway, I'm not the one who underestimated. ;)

---

Surprisingly enough.... Rainbow is one of the easier animals I have and by far the largest. Every now and again she reminds me she is a wild animal still and I think Monty was talking dirty to her and said the wrong thing. LOL... JK

Monty is sulking. He would normally pop up when you walk by and see if you have food for him but now he just flicks his tong and slightly lifts his head. After work today I am going to do a full clean up of everyone's enclosures because it is time to do so and add some plants to a cage or 2 also. Looking forward to him feeling better in a couple of weeks. Other than that I will not be holding him at all.

Many, many years ago I had a retic that went two weeks past feeding date as the local pet store hadn't gotten any shipment of rabbits in as scheduled. She would get very active at night and was literally making enough noise one particular evening that I was having a difficult time sleeping...she would stretch out across the eight foot long cage and stretch upward and outward until she plopped to the cage floor. This went on for hours...caught the attention of my daughter's cat who was in there watching the action. Well...the retic was probably about 14 feet long at that time and managed to buckle the glass doors out of the track--I awoke to the sound of a screaming cat and could not understand what I was seeing in the mostly dark room, illuminated by a red lamp. It appeared to me that the retic was outside of her cage but I could see reflections in the glass doors, which were still propped up against the cage (rather than laying flat on the room floor) and it appeared to me that the retic was outside of the cage and the doors were still properly in place (which they weren't). I turned on the light and realized what exactly had happened and realized the retic had grabbed the cat and was wrapping her at that point. I grabbed a bottle of rum from the next room and literally started dousing the ball of snake with rum (couldn't see the head at this point). Managed to get the snake off the cat and tossed the retic back into her cage as the cat wandered "drunkenly" into the living room and hid under the couch. The cat checked out OK at the vet later that morning but she never, again, went into that room with the retic cage. Never had any aggression out of that snake towards me or anyone else, but it goes to show that animals have behavioral instincts that they act upon and that can lead to unplanned scenarios and when the animal is big and strong, things can get bad quickly.

I am way too much of a chicken to have a giant snake. I just think there comes a time when "Giant" is just too big. I saw the beautiful giants at NERDS and my jaw hit the ground. I said to myself, "Not for me there Chico!".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MR Snakes

I am way too much of a chicken to have a giant snake. I just think there comes a time when "Giant" is just too big. I saw the beautiful giants at NERDS and my jaw hit the ground. I said to myself, "Not for me there Chico!".

---

:yes: It's more responsibility (& liability) than most are ready for in a private home. It's a challenge even for professionals & if there's one thing that "we" (the community
of snake-keepers) don't need, it's any more strikes against us in the court of public opinion & the laws that get passed after mistakes. I once held up a small part of a
giant snake for a photo, along with a group of others. The power of such snakes is impressive, to say the least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:yes: It's more responsibility (& liability) than most are ready for in a private home. It's a challenge even for professionals & if there's one thing that "we" (the community
of snake-keepers) don't need, it's any more strikes against us in the court of public opinion & the laws that get passed after mistakes. I once held up a small part of a
giant snake for a photo, along with a group of others. The power of such snakes is impressive, to say the least.

---

This is why I believe there should be an application process for purchasing such animals. Granted, I believe that to be true about ALL living creatures, but especially the giants. It seems asinine to me that it takes YEARS to adopt a child, but you can come home with a new animal in a matter of minutes as long as you have the cash. Both are living creatures. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the life of a hamster to that of a human, but....both are lives.

If you can't pass a general competency test and show proof of a proper enclosure and living space you shouldn't be able to purchase the animal. Obviously, this will NEVER happen, it's just not feasible...
But for the "GIANTS" I believe it should be the responsibility of the breeder to make sure the buyer is qualified to keep such animals. If this were the case, maybe our hobby doesn't have the rep it has, maybe FL doesn't have the invasive snake population it has...we'll never know since we can't go back in time.

OP, please understand this is IN NO WAY a dig meant for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craigafrechette

This is why I believe there should be an application process for purchasing such animals....

If you can't pass a general competency test and show proof of a proper enclosure and living space you shouldn't be able to purchase the animal...

But for the "GIANTS" I believe it should be the responsibility of the breeder to make sure the buyer is qualified to keep such animals. If this were the case, maybe our hobby doesn't have the rep it has, maybe FL doesn't have the invasive snake population it has...we'll never know since we can't go back in time.

OP, please understand this is IN NO WAY a dig meant for you.

---

I "second" this...and also for "hots" (& I have owned hots in the past for some 20 safe years, btw). Either one is too dangerous to belong to just anyone with cash
& enthusiasm, & what's more, regulation IS feasible. Even though the "barn door has been open for a while" it's not too late to regulate. We have to think about
what's good for our country (human & wildlife both) as a whole, and also about the improper care given to many dangerous exotics that end up in the wrong hands.

It just comes down to some animals should be left wild and seen in zoos but not in individuals homes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MR Snakes

It just comes down to some animals should be left wild and seen in zoos but not in individuals homes.

---

Responsible keepers can definitely keep them in their homes no problem. Some animals are more challenging to keep in homes, however, but I wouldn't give such a statement as you have ruling out all retic keepers.

Yes there are a lot of irresponsible keepers who impulse-buy the animals, but not every giant python keeper is like that.

I think that whatever you do, whether it is keeping them in your home or leaving that to zoos, even in the wild, we always have to remember that they are wild animals with instincts and need to be respected for the danger they present.

Not everyone is qualified or has a situation suited for keeping retics. Most people aren't, I would think. But while ruling out irresponsible-impulse buyers who don't respect the animal is okay, there are actual responsible keepers who do a great job and are very educated on said animals. I don't think there should be a blanket statement of "these animals aren't to be kept". Maybe "these animals pose a danger and aren't suited for most homes/keepers".


Having said that, accidents do happen sometimes (like with the OP). But how do you think experienced keepers became experienced in the first place? We all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure they will take more precautions next time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 55fingers

Responsible keepers can definitely keep them in their homes no problem. Some animals are more challenging to keep in homes, however, but I wouldn't give such a statement as you have ruling out all retic keepers.

Yes there are a lot of irresponsible keepers who impulse-buy the animals, but not every giant python keeper is like that.

I think that whatever you do, whether it is keeping them in your home or leaving that to zoos, even in the wild, we always have to remember that they are wild animals with instincts and need to be respected for the danger they present.

Not everyone is qualified or has a situation suited for keeping retics. Most people aren't, I would think. But while ruling out irresponsible-impulse buyers who don't respect the animal is okay, there are actual responsible keepers who do a great job and are very educated on said animals. I don't think there should be a blanket statement of "these animals aren't to be kept". Maybe "these animals pose a danger and aren't suited for most homes/keepers".

Having said that, accidents do happen sometimes (like with the OP). But how do you think experienced keepers became experienced in the first place? We all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure they will take more precautions next time.

---

I'm saying that it is rather murkey where you draw the line between zoo animals and home pets.

I love retics, absolutely awesome animals. I think I will just stay with handling my balls.
I’ve only been bit twice and both times it barely required a band-aid. Since balls don’t ever get bigger than 5 kilograms, I think I’m safe. They are mostly shy little wimps anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OP: Recent video by Reach Out Reptiles on how to get a retic to let go. I've never seen this technique before and find it fascinating... Hopefully you won't ever need to get a snake to let go again, but if so, this might come in handy. I wonder if this works with other species too. FYI go to ~2:35 to see what he does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 55fingers

Responsible keepers can definitely keep them in their homes no problem. Some animals are more challenging to keep in homes, however, but I wouldn't give such a statement as you have ruling out all retic keepers.

Yes there are a lot of irresponsible keepers who impulse-buy the animals, but not every giant python keeper is like that.

I think that whatever you do, whether it is keeping them in your home or leaving that to zoos, even in the wild, we always have to remember that they are wild animals with instincts and need to be respected for the danger they present.

Not everyone is qualified or has a situation suited for keeping retics. Most people aren't, I would think. But while ruling out irresponsible-impulse buyers who don't respect the animal is okay, there are actual responsible keepers who do a great job and are very educated on said animals. I don't think there should be a blanket statement of "these animals aren't to be kept". Maybe "these animals pose a danger and aren't suited for most homes/keepers".


Having said that, accidents do happen sometimes (like with the OP). But how do you think experienced keepers became experienced in the first place? We all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure they will take more precautions next time.

---

I almost avoided responding to anything else being said till I read this.

I work hard to provide safe, healthy, quality of life for all my animals. I have studied and take the responsibility serious. I am far from an expert but have grown by leaps and bounds by caring for them and have no regrets on getting them.

Wild animals can't always be predictable. Happy my lesson was not learned under more tragic events and my animals are OK. Anyone who keeps reptiles should know to expect almost anything at anytime. They can and will keep you on your toes.



Sent from my N9560 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

won't ever have a giant snake so that's no problem... I think they're a bit much as "pets", the same way I don't see lions replacing house cats.
No matter how magnificent, there comes a point where people either can't or don't control them, & "stuff happens". Anyway, I'm not the one who underestimated.


(& I have owned hots in the past for some 20 safe years, btw). .

---

Since there's a lot of giant snake ownership bashing going on here, I'll bite.

How the hell does one criticize person who owns a large constrictor and compares owning one to owning a lion, then go on to say "I've owned hots for 20 safe years"!?!?

I can probably survive a bite from a Burm, a Retic, a Boa....especially with help in the room. But I'll pass on something that may require $50,000 worth of antivenom flown in on a private jet that may or may not save your life. There is a small room for error with large constrictors, there is NONE for front fanged venomous. Period.

So much talk here, and so much of it from people who have never owned anything marginally large in size to begin with. Talk, talk, talk.

The guy had the balls to admit a single handling error, and the entire discussion turned into a seven page discussion about how irresponsible he is. A few of you, we are well aware of have owned snakes for 95+ years and have never made an error in owning them, we are reminded of your stellar records every day. Let it go people, gain some humility, and get back to your own animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KevinK

Since there's a lot of giant snake ownership bashing going on here, I'll bite.

How the hell does one criticize person who owns a large constrictor and compares owning one to owning a lion, then go on to say "I've owned hots for 20 safe years"!?!?

I can probably survive a bite from a Burm, a Retic, a Boa....especially with help in the room. But I'll pass on something that may require $50,000 worth of antivenom flown in on a private jet that may or may not save your life. There is a small room for error with large constrictors, there is NONE for front fanged venomous. Period.

So much talk here, and so much of it from people who have never owned anything marginally large in size to begin with. Talk, talk, talk.

The guy had the balls to admit a single handling error, and the entire discussion turned into a seven page discussion about how irresponsible he is. A few of you, we are well aware of have owned snakes for 95+ years and have never made an error in owning them, we are reminded of your stellar records every day. Let it go people, gain some humility, and get back to your own animals.

---

LOL......but true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KevinK

Since there's a lot of giant snake ownership bashing going on here, I'll bite.

How the hell does one criticize person who owns a large constrictor and compares owning one to owning a lion, then go on to say "I've owned hots for 20 safe years"!?!?

I can probably survive a bite from a Burm, a Retic, a Boa....especially with help in the room. But I'll pass on something that may require $50,000 worth of antivenom flown in on a private jet that may or may not save your life. There is a small room for error with large constrictors, there is NONE for front fanged venomous. Period....

---

FYI, I don't advocate private ownership of either giant snakes OR hots, but since you took issue with my comments (which were NOT aimed at "bashing" the OP & were
taken out of context) I shall try to further explain what I meant. The "disaster" that started this thread arose because the OP was unable to restrain his still-growing
giant snake from attacking another nearby, due to it's size, strength & element of surprise for which he was unprepared. Yes, all of us who keep snakes or other animals
get surprised at times by what our animals do, but we ARE expected to have our pets under control at all times. I compared such a giant snake to the idea of having a
lion instead of a house cat for a pet, & I stand by that comparison: I know of some (very few) people who seem able to relate to such large cats, but in no way can any-
one physically control such an animal if it wants to misbehave. How is that different from a giant snake? It's not. They are both wild animals with minds of their own.

Yes, I kept hots for some 20 years in the past. They were NEVER on my "wish list"...quite the opposite. But I lived in an area where there were 6 kinds of rattlesnakes
locally that entered people's property uninvited. For that transgression, they were often killed. As a snake-keeper, I wanted to help keep people safe (many bites happen
when inexperienced people try to take matters into their own hands) and to protect the snakes as well. I was never out catching local snakes (harmless OR venomous)
but often made myself available to rescue & re-locate wayward serpents. The only ones I kept were those unsuitable for relocation (injured, sick or in captivity by others
too long for legal release, per Fish & Game regulations) and I ended up giving local educational programs with them to promote understanding & conservation. At one
point, I was given some non-local hots for which I had to obtain a special (F&G) permit- such permits are not easy to get, and when they came to inspect my premises
I received high marks.

Both giant snakes and hots present special challenges to safe keeping, & in my opinion, more people are keeping them than should. I did NOT say that was true of Sky-
rivers, so don't put words in my mouth, OK? Giant snakes require physical strength & multiple people to handle safely, not to mention stronger caging, while hots have
their own risks which can be minimized by careful planning, using the safest methods, & the avoidance of distractions when working with them. Either way, there is no
room for mistakes that happen when we as keepers over-estimate our skills...& that usually takes some maturity & self-awareness. I don't personally know Skyrivers,
so opinions I've expressed in this thread aren't personally directed at the OP...they are the same opinions I've always had, & intended as part of the general discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I don't advocate private ownership of either giant snakes OR hots, but since you took issue with my comments (which were NOT aimed at "bashing" the OP & were
taken out of context) I shall try to further explain what I meant. The "disaster" that started this thread arose because the OP was unable to restrain his still-growing
giant snake from attacking another nearby, due to it's size, strength & element of surprise for which he was unprepared. Yes, all of us who keep snakes or other animals
get surprised at times by what our animals do, but we ARE expected to have our pets under control at all times. I compared such a giant snake to the idea of having a
lion instead of a house cat for a pet, & I stand by that comparison: I know of some (very few) people who seem able to relate to such large cats, but in no way can any-
one physically control such an animal if it wants to misbehave. How is that different from a giant snake? It's not. They are both wild animals with minds of their own.

Yes, I kept hots for some 20 years in the past. They were NEVER on my "wish list"...quite the opposite. But I lived in an area where there were 6 kinds of rattlesnakes
locally that entered people's property uninvited. For that transgression, they were often killed. As a snake-keeper, I wanted to help keep people safe (many bites happen
when inexperienced people try to take matters into their own hands) and to protect the snakes as well. I was never out catching local snakes (harmless OR venomous)
but often made myself available to rescue & re-locate wayward serpents. The only ones I kept were those unsuitable for relocation (injured, sick or in captivity by others
too long for legal release, per Fish & Game regulations) and I ended up giving local educational programs with them to promote understanding & conservation. At one
point, I was given some non-local hots for which I had to obtain a special (F&G) permit- such permits are not easy to get, and when they came to inspect my premises
I received high marks.

Both giant snakes and hots present special challenges to safe keeping, & in my opinion, more people are keeping them than should. I did NOT say that was true of Sky-
rivers, so don't put words in my mouth, OK? Giant snakes require physical strength & multiple people to handle safely, not to mention stronger caging, while hots have
their own risks which can be minimized by careful planning, using the safest methods, & the avoidance of distractions when working with them. Either way, there is no
room for mistakes that happen when we as keepers over-estimate our skills...& that usually takes some maturity & self-awareness. I don't personally know Skyrivers,
so opinions I've expressed in this thread aren't personally directed at the OP...they are the same opinions I've always had, & intended as part of the general discussion.

---

So in summary:

Owning a large constrictor is just like owning a lion because they cannot be controlled, even though you personally have owned a large female BCI in the past (per your own words in other posts). .....odd

You have given educational programs with hots and homed them, yet still maintain the position that a large constrictor like a Retic can never be controlled and is the more dangerous animal compared to a rattlesnake. .....odd

See now this where it gets interesting though....because in your own words (once again on your other posts) you have been keeping snakes in general for approx 25 years, yet have owned hots for 20 some odd years. Meaning you were keeping rattlesnakes after a mere five years of owning colubrids....that's quite the transition. Would you advocate for someone owning hots after five years of owning rat snakes?.....because I wouldn't. Why do most of your posts involve very opinionated subjects which sometimes you are not qualified for, and then when someone questions it you always make a "we in the herp community" type of bonding statement to try and get out of it? If you don't like large constrictors, and think they're super dangerous and owning them is more reckless than owning a front fanged venomous animal....then stop commenting in the giant snakes forum rather frequently, and stop assuring people they're a species that cannot be dealt with safely. We already went through the Lacey Act because of unnecessary fear of large constrictors (which some people here contributed good money to USARK to fight by the way), don't need to add fuel to that fire again because someone is out there keeping and showing the injured rattlesnakes in her neighbor's backyard but telling other people the Retics in a petstore are a much more dangerous species. Some of the restrictions from the act still remain by the way.

I would like to have this thread closed on a good note. Monty is doing well and took food last night. Rainbow is also doing well and enjoyed 5 quail as a treat. I have learned a lesson and am also doing well. My friend is also doing well.

In short everyone is ok and I have gained much needed experience before my baby is full grown and hope that this experience makes me a better keeper as a result.


Moderators please lock this thread from future posts.

Glad to hear all has worked out.

In all honesty, I have seen no bashing going on at all. If anything, everyone was quite respectful in posting their opinions. And opinions will vary.

I also don't think its quite fair to tell people they should not comment in a forum if they currently do not keep that species or haven't. This entire community will be fairly limited then. It was courageous of Skyrivers to share his mistake. But its only to be expected that there will be discussion because of it. Of the potential of such a situation being far worse, or what could/should have been done differently. I think Skyrivers took to it well.

Its the same with all species. Some don't agree with morph breeding or with breeding of particular morphs. That is their prerogative. No-one tells them to stay off of the forum or post because they may not have morphs or those particular ones. We ARE a reptile community here, not exclusive to the species we keep. As long as the discussion is respectful, it is no problem to have opinions coming from different angles. As well as then discussing a different opinion of the different opinion ;)

These forums and posts will be read by others and for years to come. There is a lot to gain from discussions. As to stricter laws that have been established regarding more dangerous species, they usually are presented AFTER a incident that becomes news. Is there a lot of misconception in the general public when it comes to ANY snake, esp. giants or hots? YES. But having a teenager found killed by a large snake or a keeper killed by his hots doesn't help that misconception the public has about all of us. So yes, these incidents are definitely hits on our hobby. There absolutely has to be a higher degree of knowledge and prevention when it comes to the species that can cause harm.

A bite from a hot can kill you or put you in a world of hurt. But you may have a chance and time to get to a hospital. If you get grabbed AND wrapped by a giant just right, you have seconds or minutes before passing out and there is no one there to help or you cannot reach something to get the snake off, you are in bad trouble. Pointing fingers from one to the other doesn't help. A cat bite can kill you from infection, a horse can kick you to death in a split second. But its a fact, the general population is (mostly) not a fan of reptiles, looks at snakes as dangerous and every time someone is in the news people scream for more laws to protect themselves from the "crazy" reptile people and their animals.

No doubt are there very many VERY responsible keepers of the more dangerous species. I have seen no bashing of that at all. Just a general reminder that those animals are not and should not be for everyone. All the responsible hot/giant keepers I know actually agree with that and have strong opinions about that.

My point was mostly for Skyrivers to be aware that something going wrong at a show and tell can have bad consequences for him and to be aware of that. We live in a very sue happy country and one mistake involving the wrong person can turn his life upside down. That can happen when taking smaller animals as well, but of course, the stakes go higher when something happens involving such a powerful animal. My advice was to keep the giants home during these casual show and tells. (meaning, non professional held, no insurance, etc) It doesn't mean he has to take the advice, mine or anyone else's. But this is a forum to discuss. And discussion will happen.

I believe it has run its course now, though, as Skyriver has said. I'm glad both snakes are fine and no lasting damage has been done :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 55fingers

... I don't think there should be a blanket statement of "these animals aren't to be kept". Maybe "these animals pose a danger and aren't suited for most homes/keepers"....

---

Nor do I...but I'm fine with restricting [giants & hots] to those who pass some minimum standards to achieve a permit. (And again, this is NOT directed at Skyrivers specifically, only to the topic.) The problem with the warning label-approach (& it's already implied anyway) is that is the very reason so many want to keep these in the first place...they have some-thing to "prove" to themselves and to others. They are not learning to work with them because they turn up in their neighborhood...these are exotics they must seek out & buy.

I can remember hearing about one very sad outcome...a very experienced man who kept his giant constrictors in a separate building was found there (deceased)...he was killed by the giant snake that he was comfortable working with, after trying to medicate it. It objected & he was working alone. How many strong adults does it take to restrain a giant snake that is not cooperative? And how many keepers ALWAYS have that team of helpers on hand? That's why I think zoos are the proper place for these types of snakes. Yes, it's also risky to work hots alone, but not every hot keeper does the sort of things you see on YouTube...certainly the ones who respect their lives, their animals & their neighbors don't. For hots it's a question of common sense, like using shift cages to move them, & NEVER working them with distractions, fatigue, or use of alcohol/drugs, legal or not. The reason I brought hots into the discussion was out of fairness, since I worked with them, & as I said before, think that a permit system would be better for everyone, the keepers AND the snakes. If nothing else,
the person buying either one has more 'skin in the game'...it slows down the impulse-buying & forces you to think about your future, living with such consequential animals. :snake: About what happens when your pet out-grows your ability & interest & lives a very long time...? About where you can live legally to keep it & who will BE there to help you...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

In all honesty, I have seen no bashing going on at all. If anything, everyone was quite respectful in posting their opinions. And opinions will vary.

I also don't think its quite fair to tell people they should not comment in a forum if they currently do not keep that species or haven't. This entire community will be fairly limited then. It was courageous of Skyrivers to share his mistake. But its only to be expected that there will be discussion because of it. Of the potential of such a situation being far worse, or what could/should have been done differently. I think Skyrivers took to it well.

Its the same with all species. Some don't agree with morph breeding or with breeding of particular morphs. That is their prerogative. No-one tells them to stay off of the forum or post because they may not have morphs or those particular ones. We ARE a reptile community here, not exclusive to the species we keep. As long as the discussion is respectful, it is no problem to have opinions coming from different angles. As well as then discussing a different opinion of the different opinion ;)

These forums and posts will be read by others and for years to come. There is a lot to gain from discussions. As to stricter laws that have been established regarding more dangerous species, they usually are presented AFTER a incident that becomes news. Is there a lot of misconception in the general public when it comes to ANY snake, esp. giants or hots? YES. But having a teenager found killed by a large snake or a keeper killed by his hots doesn't help that misconception the public has about all of us. So yes, these incidents are definitely hits on our hobby. There absolutely has to be a higher degree of knowledge and prevention when it comes to the species that can cause harm.

A bite from a hot can kill you or put you in a world of hurt. But you may have a chance and time to get to a hospital. If you get grabbed AND wrapped by a giant just right, you have seconds or minutes before passing out and there is no one there to help or you cannot reach something to get the snake off, you are in bad trouble. Pointing fingers from one to the other doesn't help. A cat bite can kill you from infection, a horse can kick you to death in a split second. But its a fact, the general population is (mostly) not a fan of reptiles, looks at snakes as dangerous and every time someone is in the news people scream for more laws to protect themselves from the "crazy" reptile people and their animals.

No doubt are there very many VERY responsible keepers of the more dangerous species. I have seen no bashing of that at all. Just a general reminder that those animals are not and should not be for everyone. All the responsible hot/giant keepers I know actually agree with that and have strong opinions about that.

My point was mostly for Skyrivers to be aware that something going wrong at a show and tell can have bad consequences for him and to be aware of that. We live in a very sue happy country and one mistake involving the wrong person can turn his life upside down. That can happen when taking smaller animals as well, but of course, the stakes go higher when something happens involving such a powerful animal. My advice was to keep the giants home during these casual show and tells. (meaning, non professional held, no insurance, etc) It doesn't mean he has to take the advice, mine or anyone else's. But this is a forum to discuss. And discussion will happen.

I believe it has run its course now, though, as Skyriver has said. I'm glad both snakes are fine and no lasting damage has been done :)

---

Thank you. Something people don't know is that I am insured and licensed properly to do the things I have been doing. I take owning, displaying, and sharing them very seriously. Does this mean I will never have an issue? No. Anyone in the hobby can and will eventually have an issue of some kind if they are in it long enough. It is what you do when it happens. The reading here as well as other places helped me deal with the issue when it happened and I feel that that prepared me to deal with the situation properly as a result only Monty was hurt and not nearly as bad as it could have been.

I think making a post about what to do when things go wrong to help keepers in general should be a good place to continue discussion about the subject. This incident is resolved and brought education along with it.

Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KevinK

...
See now this where it gets interesting though....because in your own words (once again on your other posts) you have been keeping snakes in general for approx 25 years, yet have owned hots for 20 some odd years.

---

Just for the record, I've kept an uncounted number of snakes for at least 33 years and incidentally, the BCI that I had for some 12 years was a rescue that no one
wanted as a (bitey) yearling, & when she finally became larger than I was comfortable dealing with, I re-homed her with a couple I know that are into boas. Cheers.

May I ask who you got insured through and what entailed that process ? How much liability do you carry and how much does it cost?

I used to do these educational presentations all the time back before I moved. I had a BALL doing them, esp. at elementary schools. It is amazing how little fear the young kids had, unlike the adults at that school. And how willing to learn they were. Also their capacity to love and feel empathy to all the creatures, not just the fluffy ones.

I had the funniest questions as well. One boy once asked me what would happen if I took off my shoe, socks and held my naked foot up to the snake. I had to admit I never tried that, LOL :rofl:

I always tried to teach not to fear these animals, but to respect them. Esp. outdoors.

I also enjoyed those educational presentations when our herp club gave them at the local wildlife and nature parks. Met wonderful and open minded people.

Lately I've been thinking about offering such presentations again, esp. to kids and people willing to learn. But in this sue-happy place and sue-happy times I do worry some. Even if I do not bring dangerous animals, they are still animals. One could actually bite ME and someone could claim they are forever psychologically damaged or some nonsense like that .

At a educational presentation that was given by a local wildlife preservation group one of their guys was bitten (and chewed on, lol) by their gorgeous Indigo snake. He handled it well and hardly anyone noticed since his long sleeve kind of hid the snake chewing on his wrist. He just kept on walking around and talking, LOL.

I think before I would go back into all this I would like to get insured, just in case! Sad that this is how it is nowadays, but better safe then sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Just for the record, I've kept an uncounted number of snakes for at least 33 years and incidentally, the BCI that I had for some 12 years was a rescue that no one
wanted as a (bitey) yearling, & when she finally became larger than I was comfortable dealing with, I re-homed her with a couple I know that are into boas. Cheers.

---

Please take this discussion elsewhere. It is unrelated to OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Please take this discussion elsewhere. It is unrelated to OP.

---

Sorry but I was responding to KevinK's post # 70 that I just became aware of. So why don't you snark at him too? ;)

:rockon:

And I don't feel as you apparently do that I've "bashed" you here...FYI, I tend to enjoy your posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Sorry but I was responding to KevinK's post # 70 that I just became aware of. So why don't you snark at him too? ;)

:rockon:

And I don't feel as you apparently do that I've "bashed" you here...FYI, I tend to enjoy your posts.

---

I don't feel "bashed" at all and the posts will keep coming. Just trying to keep this thread focused and will remind anyone that is off subject in the future to do so. I did not feel back tracking 7 pages would be good use of my time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

May I ask who you got insured through and what entailed that process ? How much liability do you carry and how much does it cost?

I used to do these educational presentations all the time back before I moved. I had a BALL doing them, esp. at elementary schools. It is amazing how little fear the young kids had, unlike the adults at that school. And how willing to learn they were. Also their capacity to love and feel empathy to all the creatures, not just the fluffy ones.

I had the funniest questions as well. One boy once asked me what would happen if I took off my shoe, socks and held my naked foot up to the snake. I had to admit I never tried that, LOL :rofl:

I always tried to teach not to fear these animals, but to respect them. Esp. outdoors.

I also enjoyed those educational presentations when our herp club gave them at the local wildlife and nature parks. Met wonderful and open minded people.

Lately I've been thinking about offering such presentations again, esp. to kids and people willing to learn. But in this sue-happy place and sue-happy times I do worry some. Even if I do not bring dangerous animals, they are still animals. One could actually bite ME and someone could claim they are forever psychologically damaged or some nonsense like that .

At a educational presentation that was given by a local wildlife preservation group one of their guys was bitten (and chewed on, lol) by their gorgeous Indigo snake. He handled it well and hardly anyone noticed since his long sleeve kind of hid the snake chewing on his wrist. He just kept on walking around and talking, LOL.

I think before I would go back into all this I would like to get insured, just in case! Sad that this is how it is nowadays, but better safe then sorry.

---

If you check with the people who insure your car or house, they often have business insurance policies. Different levels and different prices. The rest of the details are privet. Do what you think you need. Mine cost less than 50 a month. Yes I know is another bill but I want to protect myself as well as share them. Is worth it for me. Now if only I can figure out a way to make money doing it? LOL. Just want to have fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skyrivers

If you check with the people who insure your car or house, they often have business insurance policies. Different levels and different prices. The rest of the details are privet. Do what you think you need. Mine cost less than 50 a month. Yes I know is another bill but I want to protect myself as well as share them. Is worth it for me. Now if only I can figure out a way to make money doing it? LOL. Just want to have fun.

---

I don't want to make money, I just want to have fun with it and spread awareness and education.

Going to talk to the insurance I use for home/vehicles about "umbrella" insurance. Wonder if that would protect me from frivolous lawsuits..

Well I have only taken my Balls out together a handful of times.. (wait a min did I really say that lmao) ...anyways I think I’ll stop doing that also, I sure dont need that kind of scare no matter what species.. I never bring Burms out with other snakes because I’m actually afraid of what mishap could happen.. so thanks for sharing, even after 30 years I can always use a reminder [emoji106][emoji2533][emoji216][emoji216][emoji216]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Godzilla78

I love retics, absolutely awesome animals. I think I will just stay with handling my balls.
I’ve only been bit twice and both times it barely required a band-aid. Since balls don’t ever get bigger than 5 kilograms, I think I’m safe. They are mostly shy little wimps anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

I'm new to the snake world, but well before we decided to dive in, we discussed the sizes of snakes we'd be willing to handle in the home. We stuck with balls. I adore the giants; they're beautiful animals. I just don't want the risks that come with being an owner/caregiver.

Speaking of shy wimps....my new girl hides when I turn a light on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

I don't want to make money, I just want to have fun with it and spread awareness and education.

Going to talk to the insurance I use for home/vehicles about "umbrella" insurance. Wonder if that would protect me from frivolous lawsuits..

---

I also don't let people know that I have the insurance incase someone tries to make a claim and it not a true incident. I also love having a location that is under video surveillance as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

Well I have only taken my Balls out together a handful of times.. (wait a min did I really say that lmao) ...anyways I think I’ll stop doing that also, I sure dont need that kind of scare no matter what species.. I never bring Burms out with other snakes because I’m actually afraid of what mishap could happen.. so thanks for sharing, even after 30 years I can always use a reminder [emoji106][emoji2533][emoji216][emoji216][emoji216]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Reading here has prevented me from making many mistakes by reading what has happened to others. Will always share.