Bad Neck Kink

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Originally Posted by zina10

Then bring all of it out in the open! Post it. Including the video. True, you were told about the kink, so there was no misrepresentation. But you were told the kink didn't seem to bother the snake.

So here are my questions.

What does the snake weigh now? What did it weigh when you got it? How often has it fed for the breeder and what did he feed it ?
You say the bad problem started after the snake ate its first meal with you ? What exactly happened during that feed? Was the snake able to kill (unless f/t) constrict and eat it without problem? With problems? Was the tail limp and the snake flailing BEFORE that meal and after you got it ?

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I do not have a scale to weigh, I will try to get one tomorrow. His sale page said live rat. My wife fed a mouse pup, very small. Apparently he killed it without apparent issue and ate. It was the next day when she checked on the snake she noticed that he was very defensive and striking, but she did not investigate any further. She texted the breeder and told him he was very defensive, he told her that it was probably going into shed, which makes sense. It was not until I got the snake myself that the problem was identified. He has not eaten since nor shows any interest. I put a rat pinky in with him and he acts very scared of it. I do not want to have to force feed him either.

Ok help me out here. :oops:

I'm looking at the video and cant see any outstanding kinks. I just see severe neurological issues. :confusd:

What have I missed?

I do see a minor kink that IMO would not Interfere with feeding, so I would euthanize that animal at this point. However like Derek I see a severe neurological issue so my question is this, was the animal moving this way when received? Did you pre-treat for mites? Do you have a t-stat? Those are questions that will be asked if you post on the BOI or FBI, you also need to be ready to post screenshots of ALL communications.

Now was the seller right to sell the animals, well some people chose to sell animals regarless of their condition other choose to euthanize or go free to good home.

If he disclosed the link the smart move would have been to pass on the purchase, and since the purchase was made anyway the second smart move would have been to return the animal if not satisfied upon arrival and within TOS.

By buying and than not returning the animal immidiately it basically sent the message to the breeder that you/your wife were fine until you were not anymore.

There are many breeders out there with good ethics and it all comes down to doing your homework using the boi and the FBI.

Hopefully you can get things worked out somehow.

As for MM there are a lot of breeders selling there hence the importance of researching them, the good news is that there will now also be a new rating system in place. (It was confirmed in the past 48 hours)

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Originally Posted by dr del

Ok help me out here. :oops:

I'm looking at the video and cant see any outstanding kinks. I just see severe neurological issues. :confusd:

What have I missed?

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At the point where he is curling is the point where the kink is. I would have to stretch him out and take a picture for you to fully see the kink, but what you are seeing is the result of the kink, and yes it causes neurological issues due to compression on the spinal cord.

Hm. I re-watched the video several times.

The kink itself is not severe. It is visible a couple of times.

What I struggle with, is that the snake was alright up to the point it ate at your house. After researching the seller, it doesn't seem to be one of "those" that rip people off, is dishonest, etc. At first I thought that may be it, and that could explain the issue at hand. But it doesn't seem like he would put his reputation on the line, for one sale. He has plenty. He surly knows about the BOI and FBI.

Perhaps the snake was ok at his place aside from the minor kink. Perhaps it ate just fine. It arrived seemingly fine, even ate. I just don't see one meal causing these neurological issues. There are many kinked snakes, worse then that, that can still eat and it doesn't cause pressure on the spine and cork screwing. Honestly, these symptoms look more like overheating or exposure to a chemical.

Please understand that I am not trying to shift blame. Or criticize. Not at all, I am only trying to help, to help the animal. You can't help it until you figure out exactly what is causing this. There is no finger pointing.

Can you please explain the setup ? Do you perhaps have pictures ? Can you tell us how you heat the enclosure? Have there been any home improvement projects near the snake ? Any paint? Glues? Carpet treatments ? Pest control ?

I wouldn't even sell a snake with a slight kink. But some breeders do, at a discount. If he had full disclosure and the animal ate for him (and you) then he may just worry that its something you did. He doesn't know you personally, just like you do not know him personally.

Just because I have never heard of a minor kink suddenly causing neurological issues doesn't mean it cannot happen, either. But it would be beneficial for that snake to rule out other issues, esp. since some of those can be reversible.

Hope you understand and don't take offense.

Honestly I would just take the snake to an exotic vet and get a professional opinion

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

Honestly I would just take the snake to an exotic vet and get a professional opinion

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And that would certainly help on the BOI.

Whats BOI ?

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For all

BOI stands for Board of Inquiry on Faunaclassifieds.com Been around forever. That is where you ask for opinions on breeders, buyers, sellers. Or you share your good / bad experiences...

The FBI stands for "Feedback and Inquiries for Reptiles" and is basically the same thing as the BOI, however it is newer and a facebook page. It stays quite busy.


While taking it to a vet is not a bad idea at all, it needs to be a VERY experienced reptile vet. Neurological damage can be caused by so many things. And it is not like you will do a MRI on a snake. You may be able to, I don't know, but who can afford that. A xray would show the kink, but with it being rather minor, it may not show much more then that. But it would be the most helpful to rule out slipped disks, etc. I'm still not convinced, though, all that would cause nerve damage, tingling, and more so paralyzing.

It may end up that the vet can rule out things, rather then give a 100% diagnosis. But that in itself can help.

Either way, it would be a good thing to go over the husbandry and surroundings right now, before an appointment. If it is environmental, or husbandry related, something could be done about that right away.

Which could only benefit the snake. Imho.

There are very good exotic vets that are very knowledgeable about snakes
I'm just saying if it were my animal it will be going to a vet as soon as I could get it in because I would want to know what was wrong and most importantly is animal in pain

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

There are very good exotic vets that are very knowledgeable about snakes
I'm just saying if it were my animal it will be going to a vet as soon as I could get it in because I would want to know what was wrong and most importantly is animal in pain

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And that is admirable. I have never shied away from spending whatever it takes at the vet. I have worked with a reptile experienced vet closely for a couple of years while I did rescue. Well, I didn't work FOR him, but I brought many, many animals to him and he would always explain everything, show it on the microscope, research when he didn't have answers. Wonderful vet, wish he was in this area.

The thing with snakes is, you don't always get clear cut answers. Not unless it is a obvious problem, like septicemia, respiratory disease, blister disease, parasites. All these things are visible or easily tested for. Neurological is not so easy. There is no easy way to find out if the snake is in pain. They don't cry out like other animals or show clear signs. Unless we KNOW its a painful thing, like a burn, abcess etc, there is just no knowing if and how much pain there is and there isn't always a 100% answer on the cause or chance of survival.

I agree, I would still take it to the vet. But you don't always get an appointment in a hurry.

But you can double check everything in the husbandry and environment right now. That would be my first step.


ps...speaking of the "devil". I literally just now got pictures sent of that hatchling I talked about earlier, Sunny's sister, the one I gave away..Owners are so proud of her. Quick pic ;)

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...82973440_n.jpg

That is a happy home for her sister [emoji173]

I wish the best for the snake at hand....the Christmas gift. I cate not to comment on it any more as I am not there to physically see it...so best wishes for a good outcome

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So true.

It would be wonderful if the neurological issues could be fixed/reversed. :please:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Hm. I re-watched the video several times.

The kink itself is not severe. It is visible a couple of times.

What I struggle with, is that the snake was alright up to the point it ate at your house. After researching the seller, it doesn't seem to be one of "those" that rip people off, is dishonest, etc. At first I thought that may be it, and that could explain the issue at hand. But it doesn't seem like he would put his reputation on the line, for one sale. He has plenty. He surly knows about the BOI and FBI.

Perhaps the snake was ok at his place aside from the minor kink. Perhaps it ate just fine. It arrived seemingly fine, even ate. I just don't see one meal causing these neurological issues. There are many kinked snakes, worse then that, that can still eat and it doesn't cause pressure on the spine and cork screwing. Honestly, these symptoms look more like overheating or exposure to a chemical.

Please understand that I am not trying to shift blame. Or criticize. Not at all, I am only trying to help, to help the animal. You can't help it until you figure out exactly what is causing this. There is no finger pointing.

Can you please explain the setup ? Do you perhaps have pictures ? Can you tell us how you heat the enclosure? Have there been any home improvement projects near the snake ? Any paint? Glues? Carpet treatments ? Pest control ?

I wouldn't even sell a snake with a slight kink. But some breeders do, at a discount. If he had full disclosure and the animal ate for him (and you) then he may just worry that its something you did. He doesn't know you personally, just like you do not know him personally.

Just because I have never heard of a minor kink suddenly causing neurological issues doesn't mean it cannot happen, either. But it would be beneficial for that snake to rule out other issues, esp. since some of those can be reversible.

Hope you understand and don't take offense.

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I appreciate your help and advice. There are no environmental issues that would cause problems. He is housed in a reptile cabinet made of wood with glass front. It is heat controlled with a thermostat, I have thermometers in two spots, hot spot runs 90 and the cool side of the enclosure runs 70, I have 12 other ball pythons housed similar with no issue. When I filmed the video I put the snake in a tub a little off balance so it struggled so you can see how it moves at the kink. When he does crawl, he can move semi normal, but when he has to use his body in front of the kink he has no control of it. I know it is tough to diagnose something over the internet, but I am able to watch and observe him closely and I can tell you the problem is at the kink and not neurological. Unfortunately I did not get to see the little guy when he arrived and this is how I found him once he was given to me at Christmas. Again I am in no way offended at your questions and trying to help, a vet would be able to xray and determine the extent of spinal damage, but in the end it might answer some questions but I don't see a that it would change the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

Again I am in no way offended at your questions and trying to help, a vet would be able to xray and determine the extent of spinal damage, but in the end it might answer some questions but I don't see a that it would change the outcome.

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I would definitely take him to the vet regardless. You will need a statement from the vet saying that this is a severe issue and not something minor.
This statement will be needed for both your refund and for and posts you make regarding this breeder. It will make things easier to work out in the end. Otherwise it will be taken as just a personal opinion and the breeder already gave his as 'minor kink, healthy snake'.

And unfortunately, you may be put in the position where you will have to prolong things for this little one while waiting for responses. So don't plan on just going to euthanize it if you try to strong arm the refund. The breeder may decide to have you ship the snake back in order for you to get the refund if he still thinks this to be a 'minor' issue.

Read this entire thread. My heart goes out to you and your wife. Also to your poor noodle that had a difficult life. Some lessons come hard and some even harder. Thanks for sharing. As someone who takes rescues in, I never know what I am getting till I see it for myself and almost always fallow up with a vet visit right away. For me the vet visit is as much peace of mind as preparing to care for any issues the animal might have. Quality of life vs longevity?


Some will troll me for the fallowing:

The guy should be out of business. With that being said, here is my 2 cents. You now have the animal and the commitment made to the animal to provide for care of it for however long or short of life it may have. Sure learning a $500 lesson is difficult. Someone has to be responsible for what needs to be done for the poor guy. Even if it means loosing the $500. Sending him back would be irresponsible and inhumane to the animal.

Live, learn, grow, and always love.

Sincerely,

Animal lover and advocate,

Sky

Just read this whole thread. I feel terrible for you and your wife. For one $500 is a LOT of money, and for 2 every time I get a pet or Feeders to breed I feel a great responsibility for life. All I can say is that I would do everything possible to get my money back at this point. File a claim etc... i hope all comes out in your favor and i’ll be following your thread.


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Originally Posted by Skyrivers

Read this entire thread. My heart goes out to you and your wife. Also to your poor noodle that had a difficult life. Some lessons come hard and some even harder. Thanks for sharing. As someone who takes rescues in, I never know what I am getting till I see it for myself and almost always fallow up with a vet visit right away. For me the vet visit is as much peace of mind as preparing to care for any issues the animal might have. Quality of life vs longevity?


Some will troll me for the fallowing:

The guy should be out of business. With that being said, here is my 2 cents. You now have the animal and the commitment made to the animal to provide for care of it for however long or short of life it may have. Sure learning a $500 lesson is difficult. Someone has to be responsible for what needs to be done for the poor guy. Even if it means loosing the $500. Sending him back would be irresponsible and inhumane to the animal.

Live, learn, grow, and always love.

Sincerely,

Animal lover and advocate,

Sky

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You have said it well. Maybe I have not made it clear on the thread is that I am not so much worried about the $500. It is a lesson learned and I am hoping by posting this that it raises peoples awareness to breeding practices and the results it creates. It is totally irresponsible to breed and sell snakes with known defects that will affect the quality of life of the animal. I am giving the snake every possible chance. I have a vet appointment just to cover bases.

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Originally Posted by Russell Bye

You have said it well. Maybe I have not made it clear on the thread is that I am not so much worried about the $500. It is a lesson learned and I am hoping by posting this that it raises peoples awareness to breeding practices and the results it creates. It is totally irresponsible to breed and sell snakes with known defects that will affect the quality of life of the animal. I am giving the snake every possible chance. I have a vet appointment just to cover bases.

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Please don't feel I was beating you up at all. I respect you. I agree about breeding practices needing to be improved. That is one reason I don't own certain morphs despite the beauty of their looks. I don't support their breeding by buying them or breeding them. Best of luck at the vets office.