Personal Opinions on Spiders

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

My Spiders that actively wobble when excited or during feeding seem to suffer no ill effects other than the occasional weak/missed strikes, 99.5% of the time they are asymptomatic.

Any Spider morph I produce with passive wobble gets culled immediately regardless of value/genetics. I'm not for weakening bloodlines or propagating defective pets.

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So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

So you cull every one of them?

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

Spider Morph

I have quite a few at this point, and have hatched many more. I originally avoided this animal because of many of the falsehoods surrounding it. The following is what I believe to be the truth.

1. Spider is a defect. There is no debating that. It is most likely a neurological problem that demonstrates itself by the snake not being able to keep its head oriented.

2. It cannot be bred out other than by crossing it to a blackhead, and then you end up with a snake that no longer looks like a spider. This indicates the visual changes are "hard linked" to the neuro defect.

3. Spiders have less eating problems than other bp's. False. My numbers show the same ratios as other morphs.

4. Spiders like different temps than other BP's. False.

5. Spiders are better behaved than others. False. Jerk spiders come in the same ratio as other jerk snakes.

6. Non-wobbling, severe-wobbling. etc. No such thing. If they are a spider they wobble. I can get a severe wobbling snake to stop and I can get a non-severe wobbling one to demonstrate a severe wobble.

7. Younger spiders in my observation have less muscle definition in the neck which makes controlling the head more difficult. Visual wobble decreases with improved muscle definition.

8. They absolutely do eat, poop, and breed to the same degree as any other bp. There is no indication that they are in pain or even care that they have an issue.

9. The degree of the wobble is in direct proportion to how excited and or stressed the animal is.

10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

11. Spider cannot survive in the wild. This is kaka. The original spider was wild caught.

The following is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth. My favorite animals happen to be spiders. Not because of what they look like but because they are "better" pets. Let's face it, bp's display little to no indication about how they are "feeling". The defect in the Spider bp gives you a not so subtle visual indicator into the snake's mental state. A corkscrewing spider is either upset about something or it is really flipping hungry. When I experiment with husbandry, I almost always use spiders because I know when something is wrong. If the animal is displaying more than a minor twitch something is up. For jerk spiders, it is very easy to tell when the animal wants to tag you.

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

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I love seeing more opinions on this thread!

Ive done quite a bit of research since this was last discussed, and I can say for sure many other spider owners argue many of the same points you have. Just to make it clear, i didnt make this thread because i was against/for owning spiders, i was more curious on the general opinion of other hobbyists.

Spiders are still high on my wanted morph list, and lord knows if i see a cool spider morph at White Plains in 3 weeks, ill surely be picking it up to fill that 2nd rack thats waiting empty

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

So for those of you who believe you have minor wobbling animals, congratulations, you are most likely have a "happy" animal. For those who think they have severely afflicted animals, if it is not feeding time and the animal is going ballistic there is a problem.

It is because of these things, that I not only believe spiders should be bred (outside of spider x spider) but they are also the best first ball python for beginners. They take a lot of the guesswork away. You can tell when the snake is "happy" or it is uncomfortable with its current situation.

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I think this is a really good point. I haven't owned BPs for very long, but upon first getting into them, I was bombarded with a ton of information about how "bad" the spider gene and wobble are for BPs, complete with informational videoed with sad background music. This was alarming, because spiders were so accessible and immediately became my favorite gene. I read some more and found varying opinions on the gene, and finally decided to go ahead and get one for myself.

I have a very happy spider enchi ghost who rarely wobbles, except when striking at his food. Like Jordan points out, it's easy to tell that he is because of the lack of wobble. My other BPs just sit there, so Whiskey is a nice visual reminder that I'm doing pretty well by them. :)

Also, I understand that an animal behaving erratically is usually alarming, but I've been thinking of wobble as similar to the disorder in cats and dogs that causes them to be unable to balance. There's plenty of videos showing that these animals are healthy and in no pain, they just fall over a lot, especially when excited.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

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10. Spider x Spider is fatal. Maybe not 100% proven but close enough in my book. I don't do the breeding.

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The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

Let me start off by saying that I have a fire spider. Most of the time, he doesn’t seem to have any issues. Other times, he wobbles so bad that he lays on his back. I don’t have any problems with different paint jobs, but I think it is completely unethical to breed a snake for its paint job while sacrificing its health. Yes, many spiders barely have a wobble, but I don’t think this matters. We have no way of talking to these snakes and seeing really how badly they are affected by the wobble. For all we know, it could cause plenty of other problems that we have no way of seeing. Just because they shed and poop and eat well doesn’t mean they don’t have neurological problems that we can’t see. And that’s just not worth the risk to me.

A video on this issue that I agree with: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uflWWZhmoYM&t=513s

We may not have a way of talking to snakes, but we can read their body language. After working with snakes for awhile you get a sense for how they feel. A snake that is comfortable will have a relaxed body posture, move at a steady pace, and flick it's tongue to sniff the air. When a snake is uncomfortable they will tense their muscles, pull away quickly, and maybe even strike or ball up if they feel threatened.

Often, I can tell that my snakes are uncomfortable before I notice signs that they're going into shed. I notice the differences in their behavior before I notice color changes. I'll open a cage and think "so-and-so isn't herself today" and then notice she has a pink belly. Or I'll realize that one of my snakes isn't moving much, and then I'll see that his pattern is darker than normal.

Spiders don't exhibit the defensive behaviors of a snake that is uncomfortable, unless there is something making them uncomfortable. A snake that is uncomfortable doesn't move around much. You can see this in snakes that are injured, in shed, or gravid. They like to stay put for the most part and when they move they do it slowly. If spiders were in constant pain, you'd expect them to act like that all the time, but they don't do it anymore often than any other snake. I've only seen them act defensive when in shed or gravid.

Even if you believe that the pain is only concurrent with the wobble, it would likely make them slow down and stop, which is not something I've observed with wobblers. Usually they just keep going. They're disoriented, not in pain.

Beyond that, I think it's absolutely asinine for people to assert that spiders shouldn't be bred just because they have one (or have seen one) that has a severe wobble. I am sorry that those snakes have problems, but I don't think it a few bad examples outweigh the multitudes of spiders out there that are healthy pets and breeders. I don't see how your wobbling fire spider means that I shouldn't breed my female spider who has thus far produced healthy offspring.

"We can't talk to them" is never going to be a valid argument to me, because all it proves is that you don't understand your own snake. Cats and dogs can't talk either, but people still seem to recognize when they're in pain.

First off I am a complete newbie and first time owner. I have never owned nor handled a spider so take this with a grain of salt.. as far as ethics are concerned I feel I have an opinion on the matter tho.. I would ask myself this question. Is there a chance that the neurological problem bothers, causes pain, or otherwise negatively affects the snakes? If the answer is yes, then I would be opposed. They could be completely unaffected but if you answer yes then you believe there is a chance it could lead to a poor quality of life, why do it? Again just my opinion and I am new to this so take from it what you will.

Essentially i I think it comes down to the individual and there beliefs on the issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I have been away from the board for awhile. When I decided I needed to get back on here I made a decision to halt rumors and stop the propagation of false facts. When I know the facts, I am going to speak and when I don't I am going to shut up.

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Please link unbiased Sources and Statistics for your Facts. I would be interested in reading them.

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Originally Posted by paulh

The above quote is the only part of JodanOrNoDan's post I have a problem with. And that is because it can be interpreted in several ways:

1. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, one or both adults is certain to die before the eggs are laid. This is false. Mortality is no worse than when a spider ball python is mated to a normal. And, of course, all ball pythons die sooner or later.

2. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, all of the eggs will die before hatching. This is false.

3. Here is what is true, to the best of my knowledge and experience with lethal genes in other species. If two spider ball pythons are bred together, 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two spider genes, 2/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with a spider gene paired with a normal gene, and 1/4 of the eggs are expected to contain embryos with two normal genes. Embryos having a spider gene paired with a normal gene hatch out as spider ball pythons. Embryos having two normal genes hatch out as normal (non-spider) ball pythons. These spider and normal ball pythons have the same survival chances as spider and normal ball pythons from a spider ball python x normal mating. Embryos having two spider genes die before hatching.

If I wanted to mate two spider ball pythons, I would do it. Your mileage may vary.

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Yes, all this is correct. I was too lazy to type it though. I maybe should have clarified. Having spider on both sides of the ladder is lethal. I don't do the cross because I do not want my females producing non-viable embryos if it can be prevented.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

Please link unbiased Sources and Statistics for your Facts. I would be interested in reading them.

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Good luck with unbiased sources. You cannot quantify it because the people that can have a valid opinion on the gene is a person that owns at least one. If I remember correctly, doing personal research on the gene is how I found this place. Every piece of information I have comes from other breeders and my own personal experience. No one is going to spend the money to do a proper study of these animals, there is not enough interest to get funding as far as I know.

This is one of the main reasons I am on the board. I want to discuss and exchange information with other hobby breeders. Once again, it is not scientific. After awhile you learn who knows their business and who is operating with an agenda. As far as I know, there are not any breeders here that have an agenda. There are not many large breeders if any here and those would be the ones that would be most likely to develop an agenda due to the money involved. There are a lot of dirt bags in the pet industry as a whole. I personally don't buy anything from any of the the "big boys" any more

There is a least on breeder here that totally stopped breeding spiders for various reasons. I personally will continue. I like the product and they will sell regardless of what people want to believe about them. I have no agenda. I could stop breeding spiders tomorrow and it would make very little difference to my bottom line. I could stop breeding snakes entirely and my quality of life would not change. This may be my first year I am solidly in the black.

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Originally Posted by Jmarshall

First off I am a complete newbie and first time owner. I have never owned nor handled a spider so take this with a grain of salt.. as far as ethics are concerned I feel I have an opinion on the matter tho.. I would ask myself this question. Is there a chance that the neurological problem bothers, causes pain, or otherwise negatively affects the snakes? If the answer is yes, then I would be opposed. They could be completely unaffected but if you answer yes then you believe there is a chance it could lead to a poor quality of life, why do it? Again just my opinion and I am new to this so take from it what you will.

Essentially i I think it comes down to the individual and there beliefs on the issue.

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Beliefs and feelings are in no way scientific. I could say the same thing about a normal. Could it be in pain? How would I know? I know by observation of what is normal and how an animal behaves that is uncomfortable. People say I feel this about so and so... Other people decide they believe what someone else feels. It is a downward spiral of misinformation. This is not a ding against you, it is a common problem of this day and age.

I am not providing my feeling on this subject. I am providing the facts as I see them. It is up to the reader to determine if my facts are real and I have enough data to form any sort of conclusion.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Beliefs and feelings are in no way scientific. I could say the same thing about a normal. Could it be in pain? How would I know? I know by observation of what is normal and how an animal behaves that is uncomfortable. People say I feel this about so and so... Other people decide they believe what someone else feels. It is a downward spiral of misinformation. This is not a ding against you, it is a common problem of this day and age.

I am not providing my feeling on this subject. I am providing the facts as I see them. It is up to the reader to determine if my facts are real and I have enough data to form any sort of conclusion.

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you are 100% correct that we don’t know for certain and that’s why it is up to each individual to determine their point of view on the matter. I personally have no opinion one way or the other because I have no experience with the morph and haven’t been working with Snakes long enough. I am just saying someone needs to ask themselves if the animal suffers at all.. of that person says yes they shouldn’t breed them.

if someone says to themselves, I HONESTLY don’t believe the animal has an negative affects to their quality of life due to this genetic issue, there is no problems with that person breeding in my eyes. I agree that no one will ever truly KNOW therefore it is highly dependent on the persons opinions and beliefs as to whether the animal experiences anything out of the ordinary.

the entire concept of ethics is solely based on opinions. Scientific facts say the snake has a neurological problem and personal opinions determines if it’s okay to breed that.

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

Please link unbiased Sources and Statistics for your Facts. I would be interested in reading them.

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This thread itself is probably the most unbiased debate youll find currently, from my research.

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Originally Posted by Slicercrush

This thread itself is probably the most unbiased debate youll find currently, from my research.

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This guy gets it. It is the reason I am here. This is where the experienced small time breeders hang out, and they are willing to discuss things. There is a lot of knowledge here that is based on real world experience.

My original opinion on the Spider morph in all its forms were negative based on everything I'd read online .

A few years ago I agreed to have a beautiful Caramel Albino Spider off a young couple moving into a no - pet complex .. I had doubts .


Anyways they were true to their words as he's very calm and friendly , zero wobble and he's my best feeder ..

No issues at all with this lovely guy https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d3f89cb289.png


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Personally, I would not want to buy or deliberately create an animal with a high probability of a neurological disorder. Note that this applies not only to Spider ball pythons but also to the Jaguar morph in carpet pythons and possibly other species/morphs I don't know about.

That doesn't mean others cannot do it. I agree that both spiders and jags are attractive and I'm not going to condemn others for wanting one, but I'm not comfortable with it for myself.

However, I also feel like someone who breeds morphs with known neurological disorders should be up front with their customers about this because the customer may not be aware of the connection to specific morphs. I would not want a first-time owner to have their heart broken when their animal start exhibiting neurological behaviors that they did not know about in advance. Yes, you can say that they "should have done their homework" but this information is not typically in reptile books or care sheets so even someone that's made a solid effort to get educated could easily not come across this.

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Originally Posted by dboeren

Personally, I would not want to buy or deliberately create an animal with a high probability of a neurological disorder. Note that this applies not only to Spider ball pythons but also to the Jaguar morph in carpet pythons and possibly other species/morphs I don't know about.

That doesn't mean others cannot do it. I agree that both spiders and jags are attractive and I'm not going to condemn others for wanting one, but I'm not comfortable with it for myself.

However, I also feel like someone who breeds morphs with known neurological disorders should be up front with their customers about this because the customer may not be aware of the connection to specific morphs. I would not want a first-time owner to have their heart broken when their animal start exhibiting neurological behaviors that they did not know about in advance. Yes, you can say that they "should have done their homework" but this information is not typically in reptile books or care sheets so even someone that's made a solid effort to get educated could easily not come across this.

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When I sell a spider, I ask if the buyer knows what they are getting into. For that matter when I sell any snake I ask if the buyer knows what they are getting into. That said, no matter what I buy I do a little research. I typed "ball python issues" into google. The first thing that came up was OWAL's site where every known issue concerning ball pythons is to be found. Not too hard. If an owner cannot do at least that much they are probably too lazy to own a snake. Before the internet, people actually had to go to the library and do some research. These days the information is pretty much at your fingertips. There is no excuse for not knowing.

I have a banana bee that's almost no wobble at all....he's awesome! With that being said the gene makes stunning combos and are awesome pets. But if your purchasing for breeding plans I would reconsider due to a saturated spider market.

I do think that just due to natural psychological mechanisms, most if not all of those who own a spider will fall prey to cognitive dissonance and justify it one way or another. Not saying they are right or wrong, just saying that their opinion will most likely be biased.
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I personally would never breed one but do see myself adopting one as its still exists in time and space and needs to be taken care of.

I was looking at a number of different spider combos today at the Richmond show. They are beautiful snakes and none of those I saw displayed showed any wobble. That said, I didn’t handle any either because I wasn’t planning to buy any animals...until I saw the banana pinstripe. :rolleyes: For me personally, I don’t think I would breed a spider morph, because I’d hate to have the potential of culling any offspring. However, I wouldn’t have anything against owning one as a pet. They’re gorgeous.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

This guy gets it. It is the reason I am here. This is where the experienced small time breeders hang out, and they are willing to discuss things. There is a lot of knowledge here that is based on real world experience.

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The entire subject of this thread is opinion based and thus bias in nature.

Spiders are a beautiful morph. That being said, I do not condone breeding them. No I am not going to approach someone and say "Hey stop breeding spider/other neuro issue morphs!" because its not my place. But in my personal opinion, the ones that exist should go to pet only homes and have good rest of their lives, and stop being bred. The wobble is a trait that cannot be bred out, or be bred to be less visible. A spider with low wobble can make a baby thats so bad it can't eat on its own, and I don't feel it is fair to the animal to breed them just for being pretty when they have issues like this. Its just personal opinion of course, and people are going to continue doing what they like with their animals no matter what so.

I don't think there's one right answer to this, if there were, it require lots of scientific testing, years of keeping and breeding this morph with different blood lines, different conditions, etc. which would cost a lot. I also think trying to find one specific answer to this debate is a reason why they passed that law in UK reptile shows. Just my opinion.

I think the overall questions are these. If you choose to breed spider BPs, are you comfortable with knowing you will see wobbling from time to time? Are you comfortable with the POSSIBILITY* of having to cull a higher percentage of animals than you would with a different gene? Are you confident that you will produce healthy animals (this goes for breeding any animal of course)? Do you believe and does your experience with Spiders indicate to you that the snake is not in pain (open to opinion)? And are you able to stand by your product truly knowing you are selling a healthy animal?

Let me just say I have never kept a spider, not because of anything wrong with it, just because I never got one. But I think these questions need to be taken into consideration.

I guess I feel about them the same way I do about super ultra dog breeds that have been bred to the point of being unhealthy. I would adopt one if it was given to me free as an unwanted animal. I would never pay for one, and I would never breed one.

My opinion is strong.
They need to stop being reproduced. Yes they are pretty but there are many other morphs to choose from and new ones to come. I think the defects and the wobbles take away the snake's dignity, is the only way I know how to put it.

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

My opinion is strong.
They need to stop being reproduced. Yes they are pretty but there are many other morphs to choose from and new ones to come. I think the defects and the wobbles take away the snake's dignity, is the only way I know how to put it.

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I used to think so too, but now I have 2 adult spiders and they are totally normal acting and it’s nice.


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But there's other issues in the reptile breeding industry that are not right ...the one I have an issue with also is producing scaleless reptiles. I'm sorry but that's so messed up. Why are we taking their scales away that they've had since the beginning of time, for human pleasure . C'MON !!!!

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

But there's other issues in the reptile breeding industry that are not right ...the one I have an issue with also is producing scaleless reptiles. I'm sorry but that's so messed up. Why are we taking their scales away that they've had since the beginning of time, for human pleasure . C'MON !!!!

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Scaleless occur naturally it's a mutation like any other and they thrive, Spiders thrive too not many are train wrecks like for everything else clueless people exagerate things, but in the age where every newbie is an expert it's to be expected.

At that rate any mutation is a defect that should not be bred really, everytime you breed there is a chance to produce a train wreck that will not thrive and that will need to be euthanize, that's just the way it is, I have never euthanized a Spider but had to euthanize other mutations, that is part of breeding and that is where being ethical is important and that apply to all animals.

Dogs probably should not be bred either by you standard neither should they be owned yet people own dog and people breed them. I would not breed them but I would never pass judgement on people who do.

Honestly if I did not know any better I would think that you are a PETA plant because you sure start to sound like them.

Yet it's pretty easy, if you do not like something don't buy it, don't breed it however start to open your mind, (little less ignorance, more knowledge and less absolute.)

BTW on captivity everything is bred or owned for human pleasure so you comment is really hypocritical since last time I check you did own snakes unless you think your is the snake's pleasure to be owned by you. :rolleyes:

A lot if sarcasm I pick up from your comment but that's okay. I don't think anybody should breed dogs or cats until the shelters are empty and the streets are empty.... yeah that's my opinion. I see some terrible things.
My snakes and my other animals are here for my pleasure and for the love and joy of having them and I am here for theirs and to make their life wonderful until the day they die. PETA really?!?

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

A lot if sarcasm I pick up from your comment but that's okay. I don't think anybody should breed dogs or cats until the shelters are empty and the streets are empty.... yeah that's my opinion. I see some terrible things.
My snakes and my other animals are here for my pleasure and for the love and joy of having them and I am here for theirs and to make their life wonderful until the day they die. PETA really?!?

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So you can own any animals you want for YOUR pleasure, but are quick to judge others for their choices in owning animals.
Tsk tsk


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jellybeans

But there's other issues in the reptile breeding industry that are not right ...the one I have an issue with also is producing scaleless reptiles. I'm sorry but that's so messed up. Why are we taking their scales away that they've had since the beginning of time, for human pleasure . C'MON !!!!

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Suddenly you are the expert, jury and judge on animal breeding.


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[QUOTE=Godzilla78;2681323]Suddenly you are the expert, jury and judge on animal breeding.


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:gj:

Squeeze me?

This is a thread asking for personal opinions. Respect people when they give you what it asks for.

I'm not saying we have to agree with them but we do need to try and be somewhat tolerant of differences to the extent of avoiding giving offense where it is not warranted.

MY opinion ( for the lick of spit it deserves ), I love how some of the spider combo's look but haven't yet moved into owning any. Sugar/ calico spider may eventually change my mind though.

If my first breeding season from it produced nothing but train wrecks though there almost certainly wouldn't be a second.


dr del

I don’t think it should be banded, but personally it is nothing I would buy or breed. I looooove the way they look, but I wouldn’t want to watch the wobble.

I agree we have to respect each other’s views rather we agree or not. I think a responsible breeder wouldn’t want to produce and sell anything but perfect..... but obviously other people feel different and that’s OK[emoji106]


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At first I stayed away from spiders then I asked others about what they thought and after thinking long and hard on my own I ended up buying a few spiders. I currently have an orange dream spider and an enchi spider, I dont think I'll be getting anymore spider morphs, even though my two females eat without issues and little to no wobble.

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Originally Posted by Dianne

I was looking at a number of different spider combos today at the Richmond show. They are beautiful snakes and none of those I saw displayed showed any wobble. That said, I didn’t handle any either because I wasn’t planning to buy any animals...until I saw the banana pinstripe. :rolleyes: For me personally, I don’t think I would breed a spider morph, because I’d hate to have the potential of culling any offspring. However, I wouldn’t have anything against owning one as a pet. They’re gorgeous.

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Well, fast forward a few months and last week I added an albino pastel spider. He’s about a year and a half old and extremely shy. I picked him up on Saturday and settled him into a quarantine tub. The prior owner said both snakes I bought were overdue for feeding, so I offered f/t weanling rats to both on Tuesday. No problems with either feeding, but in particular I’d like to mention the spider had no issues at all striking and ‘killing’ his rat. He had no trouble lining it up to swallow, or moving around his tub. I handled him for just a few minutes tonight. Other than being skittish and jerking away quickly when you touch his neck or head, he showed no issues moving and no wobble at all. Once back in his tub, he was calmly cruising around. I wish all my new additions fed as well as he does.

For me as a newbie to ball pythons I have been massively impressed with how beautiful the spiders look.
Abd then kinda sad to learn about their neurological issues.
The cool thing is that I found out almost immediately, it’s very accessible information for a noob like me doing just the slightest amount of research. That’s gotta be a good thing.

There are some things that research doesn’t give me a clear answer to... like is the animal suffering? Is it in pain? Is it morally right etc... the more you try to find the answers to that kinda question the more subjective and polarized the answers. People who own spiders are probably less likely to say negative things about them... like you wouldn’t say your own kids are ugly. The point is, very hard to find unbiased opinions. (This thread is a great read, nobody getting too angry.)

So let’s say you could ignore all of thise questions. Then how do you make a decision?
Petsonally even if it was 100% proved that they are completely fine, I still don’t find the wobble an attractive visual aspect. The extreme examples are are not cool to see. And even a slight wobble would put me off... I guess because it would instantly remind me of the bad cases, and of this whole debate.

It’s a real shame because they look stunning. My hope is that a wobble-free variation of the gene will be discovered.

I would never buy or support the breeding of animals that have known issues from inbreeding/bad genes. That includes pure bred dogs. My pure bred beagle's spinal disks were disintegrating by the time she was 5 and left her paralyzed, and that was it for me.

I'm not an expert on snake neurology, but the spider wobble is a painfully obvious departure from normal snake behavior. Whether it causes pain or not, its affecting motor skills.

No thanks!

i love the special needs misfits so i would def adopt one with a wobble. i also think they're a good looking snake, we have one (no real wobble issues) and i'd consider buying another. i wouldn't breed them myself, though.

My 2nd ball was a stinger bee. He showed a little wobble when I brought him home from the reptile expo, however since putting him inside of a tub with the correct humidity and temperature the wobble has almost completely disappeared. I think it's pretty obvious based on what research I've done that the wobble gets worse with stress and poor husbandry. Having had this snake for a while and showing him the proper care I've noticed the wobble rarely shows up and he has no problems moving around his tub or feeding. Sometimes he will miss when feeding but I have a normal as well and a Pastel Mojave that have both missed from time to time.

People this crazy wobble is not that common. Most spiders u couldn’t tell if they had a wobble if u weren’t told about them. I’ve seen and held at least a few hundred of them and I’d say maybe 2-3 had a little wobble. Now I’m not saying there aren’t any bad ones out there but I think people are blowing it way out of proportion. Like all the YouTube vids against them also use Bryan’s name for views and pic the worst ones!! I can show u a thousand good spiders to the few that are severe.

But that being said, I don’t own one nor do I even want one. Just not what I really like!