Dexter Regurgitated Rats Twice This Month

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kara

So...not the most glamorous aspect of herpetoculture by far. In the days before commercially-available probiotics, snakes with chronic regurge issues were force-fed feces from healthy snakes of the same species to help re-establish gut flora. Good times. :puke2:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

OMG! Now, that sounds like a reeeeaaal good time! lol

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Off topic, I know, but that actually was AND IS highly effective.

It is being used in human medicine as well, although, the "material" is "re-fined" and given through a tube ;) It seems to be the only thing that helps with severe and antibiotic resistant diseases in the digestive tract..

---

i learn wonderful new things every day on here. :) LOL.

Just some updates on my little buddy - Dexter... His backbone is sticking up and he is looking really thin. I wish I could feed the poor guy, but everyone has advised me not to. I'm pretty sure the last meal he kept down was on 12/11, after having regurgitated the first time on 12/05 and taking a massive dump on 12/09. He then regurgitated a second time on 12/20... I have been mixing Nutribac in with fresh water every other day since either 12/23 or 12/25 and haven't fed him. Whether or not he has been drinking the water, I don't know...

Now, for the most important update... I firmly believe that I discovered the reason for Dexter's regurgitation, as well as why his girlfriend - Sophie has been refusing food a lot... We have been having severe cold temperatures here in Pittsburgh, PA and due to having ongoing temperature and humidity problems in my snake room since it got cold, I decided to check for drafts. Unfortunately, there is an unused door in my snake room, which leads outside onto a roof and the back of my Blood/Short Tail rack is right up against it. There is also a window in my snake room... Lo and behold I discovered some serious drafts coming in all around the door and some coming in around the window. So, I duct taped all the way around the door and then covered the entire door with thick black plastic. I also covered the window with black plastic... I am extremely happy to say that I am now able to keep the heater vent closed in my snake room and my portable oil space heater is able to keep the temperature wherever I want them and my humidifier is keeping the room right around 50%! I am also very thankful and lucky to not have a bunch of sick snakes! I firmly believe that the drafts were the cause of some Dexter regurgitating, as well as why Sophie hasn't been eating regularly. She is also starting to look thin... The freezing cold drafts around the door HAD to have been blowing directly on the back of the rack (which is only covered with 1/8" panel board) and that is right where they lay on their hot spots. Poor babies... :( I'm sure just glad I discovered these draft issues and fixed them when I did and i'm praying that RI problems don't arise! Do you guys think this could be what caused Dexter's regurgitation and should I still not feed him for a few more weeks?

It is possible the cold did it. I would not wait several more weeks to feed them if their spines are showing, I would offer them a very small meal like a mouse pinky or small fuzzy that has been dusted with NutriBAC this weekend after they warm up.

That’s great news Aedryan, it’s amazing how a heat difference can really upset the health of our snakes, and how careful troubleshooting and correcting the heat and humidity problems can bring them right back into health often.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was the answer I was hoping for... I will try feeding Dexter a Nutribac dusted weanling on Monday and hope for the best. Sophie has never regurgitated, so I would suspect her usual prey size should be alright? With her, it's just a matter of getting her to start eating on a regular basis again. The last meal she didn't refuse was on 12/18, but she had been on a hunger strike for 1 1/2 - 2 months prior to that and has been refusing meals ever since. I think I will dust her meal with Nutribac as well just for good measure...

Well... Dexter refused frozen/thawed, so he got a live small rat and has managed to keep it down for 3 days... Fingers crossed! His girlfriend - Sophie also refused frozen/thawed, so she took down a nice big fat live medium rat. I'm basically done playing games with 4 of my snakes that have been ongoing problem feeders (2 Balls and 2 Bloods) and giving them live from here on out. Otherwise, i'll be sitting here 'til doomsday trying to get everyone up to breeding size and have to continue throwing more rats away than are being eaten every week. Things will be sooo much easier (and cheaper) once I have my own rat breeding program going soon, though!

Kept it down for 3 days, I’d say you are good. Nothing wrong with feeding live, I would if I could get them as cheap as I get the frozens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I spoke too soon... He regurgitated again... :( Maybe I should have tried waiting a few more weeks. I don't know what else to do for this poor guy...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

I spoke too soon... He regurgitated again... :( Maybe I should have tried waiting a few more weeks. I don't know what else to do for this poor guy...

---

Take him to the vet. I like Dr. Robert Wagner. He has office hours Monday and Tuesday evenings at North Boros Veterinary Hospital.

http://www.drbobwagner.com/contact-me/

He is usually treating multiple animals at once, but I feel he knows what he's doing and his prices are good.

3 days and still gurged....... I would take to a reputable vet in your area.

Technically, I guess it would have been around somewhere around 56 hours later when he regurgitated... But, yeah... It sucks... :( The rat I fed him was extra small, but i'm thinking I should have given him at least a couple more weeks before trying to feed him again. I was just concerned about his weight loss and I would have bet money that weatherizing my snake room and getting all of my temps and humidity back to spot on would have remedied his problem. I've been doing a lot more research on snakes regurgitating and it seems to be that 90% of regurgitation issues are caused by husbandry issues, over feeding, handling too soon after eating or over handling in general. In my case, the only one of those that could have caused it would have been my temperatures and humidity (mostly) going crazy for just a few days after it got extremely cold outside before I discovered the cold drafts coming in behind the rack he is in. Since I weatherized, temps (bumped up to about 85 on the hot side) and humidity have been perfect again, though. Maybe he will be alright if I give him a whole month off of food and zero handling and let him settle back in to ideal temps and humidity? I've still been giving him fresh new water treated with Nutribac every 2 days, but I don't have any idea if he has been drinking it or not. All of my Bloods and Short Tails will be turning 2 and 3 years old around June and i've had all of them on a 7 day feeding schedule since day one. Since their metabolism is so slow, do you guys think it might be a good idea to cut them back to 10 - 14 days? The way these guys store food for so long always worries the hell out of me and for a month or so before Dexter started regurgitating he had been looking like he was going to explode. He had completely emptied himself (massively) 4 days after the first time he regurgitated... The only other thing I can think of is maybe I haven't been heating up the frozen/thawed rats enough before feeding? They are definitely always thawed out completely and I heat them up with a heat gun right before feeding and none of my other snakes have ever regurgitated, but maybe they aren't warm enough on the inside sometimes? I don't know...

I want to take him to the vet and I definitely would if it was just a matter of an office call + a treatment and some medication, but according to the research i've been doing on regurgitation, it could require many different series of very expensive tests and lab work to get to the bottom of it. Unfortunately, i've been going through some financial difficulties and I just can't afford hundreds/thousands of dollars for guess work. So, for now, my only option is to hope and prey that some time, TLC and Nutribac will resolve it...

Have you ever fed him live before? Could he have a case of internal parasites or perhaps Giardia or so? Those are easily treated..but you need to test for it.. I'm so sorry to hear he regurgitated again. Perhaps it's time to tube him like Kara said..with Nutribac slurry
I would message her and get real good instruction and advice before you do that, though..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It could be something like crypto, too. You said he looked like he was going to explode earlier, and crypto causes swelling where the stomach is, as well as regurgitation and weight loss. I would still try to get in with a vet and at least think about testing for that, since it's contagious and generally lethal. Hopefully this wouldn't be the case and it's just messed up GI fauna from the first regurge...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kcl

Take him to the vet. I like Dr. Robert Wagner. He has office hours Monday and Tuesday evenings at North Boros Veterinary Hospital.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kcl

http://www.drbobwagner.com/contact-me/

He is usually treating multiple animals at once, but I feel he knows what he's doing and his prices are good.

---

Thanks for letting me know about this vet, Kcl. Much appreciated!

Just to let everyone know, I am going to go ahead and take him to the vet as soon as the roads clear. Unfortunately, I drive a Mustang and we just got hit with a bunch of snow again last night... Grrr! But, anyway, I called the vet's office and it will only be $60.00 for the office call. I explained to them that he is a Blood Python and it wouldn't be very likely that I would be able to bring a feces sample since he just emptied out recently, etc. She said the vet will sometimes treat for parasites without a sample, which would only be $10.00. So, that would be a huge peace of mind! As of right now, i'm worried sick... :( I don't want to lose this guy and I definitely don't want parasites spreading to my other animals (if that is the problem)! I'm assuming that deworming would take at least 2 or 3 treatments, though, wouldn't it? Will vets typically give you worm medicine to take home to administer yourself with reptiles? I've been studying up on Panacur, which seems to be the go-to treatment for reptiles. Is that what the vet will likely use?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

Have you ever fed him live before? Could he have a case of internal parasites or perhaps Giardia or so? Those are easily treated..but you need to test for it.. I'm so sorry to hear he regurgitated again. Perhaps it's time to tube him like Kara said..with Nutribac slurry

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zina10

I would message her and get real good instruction and advice before you do that, though..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

No, this was the first time I ever fed him live... I also think it's probably time to tube him and make sure he gets a good dose of Nutribac, but i'm not even sure how much a proper dose would be. The directions couldn't be any more vague with that product! One of my local breeder friends told me that if he wasn't drinking water he would already be dead, so would you guys think it's safe to assume that he has been getting the Nutribac that i've been mixing in with his water?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aahmn

It could be something like crypto, too. You said he looked like he was going to explode earlier, and crypto causes swelling where the stomach is, as well as regurgitation and weight loss. I would still try to get in with a vet and at least think about testing for that, since it's contagious and generally lethal. Hopefully this wouldn't be the case and it's just messed up GI fauna from the first regurge...

---

I REALLY hope he doesn't have Cryptosporidiosis! From what i've researched, animals with that pretty much just have to be euthanized... His belly hasn't been swollen any more ever since he defecated on 12/09...

Since you are taking him to the Vet anyway, just take the Nutribac with you and ask for advice whether you should use it and if so, the vet can tube him for you. Its easier to do it there, where you have help and they have the right supplies...

Perhaps they can show you how and send some supplies home with you, if they want this treatment repeated.

They don't necessarily need a fecal sample to check for protozoans or parasites. They sometimes can do a fecal flush and it may be enough..

Back in the day when I did rescue, I used Panacure for parasites and Flagyl for protozoans. Many people treat prophylactic , esp. if they get imports, but I would feel better if I knew what I was treating. Esp. since the boy is sick, and you don't want to make that worse by treating him for things that he doesn't have..

The best thing to do, is what you are going to do. Go to a experienced reptile vet.

I would start making a list of your concerns and questions. Sometimes you forget half of what you were going to ask once you are there. You could ask about those other diseases and the possibilities that it could be that, possible tests, etc. You could ask about the parasites and the flush. You could ask about if your other snake refusing could possibly be related. Ask about (and bring) the Nutribac. Be well prepared to get the most out of that visit.

These tools are quite handy when you have to inspect or treat a snakes mouth, or tube/medicate, etc. Hold the mouth open while you have perfect access to it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/morgens...e/download.jpg

Good luck with your boy, hope the Vet can figure it out and get him all better !!

All great advice, Zina. Thank you. :) I am definitely going to take all of his records and a list of questions along with me. Taking the Nutribac along is also a great idea. Hopefully the vet will be able to show me how to properly dose him orally. I really hope this doesn't turn out to be something serious and can be easily treated without costing a fortune...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

All great advice, Zina. Thank you. :) I am definitely going to take all of his records and a list of questions along with me. Taking the Nutribac along is also a great idea. Hopefully the vet will be able to show me how to properly dose him orally. I really hope this doesn't turn out to be something serious and can be easily treated without costing a fortune...

---

I'm crossing all my fingers and toes for you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're welcome for the vet name. Hope he can help your boy. He did give us the antibiotic injections to do at home, so I'd guess he'd be willing to give you whatever relevant medicines to administer at home as well.

Just a quick update on Dexter... He is still doing alright... Him and one of my Ball Pythons that has a respiratory infection both have vet appointments on Thursday and will be treated...

I would also offer untreated water along with the treated water if you are still offering treated water. IF for some reason he is avoiding the water because of the additive, he will have an alternative water source and not become dehydrated on top of the other issues. Put the treated water closest to his favorite spot perhaps and the untreated water further away?

Good luck. And I second the list of questions and concerns. A vet can be intimidating and scary and it's very easy to be distracted and end up wanting to leave more quickly to get out of the environment of "Sick pet" and then suddenly you didn't ask the half dozen urgent questions you wanted to. With a written list, you can even make notes of answers too(take a pencil!)

I've been concerned about whether or not he has been drinking the water, but I have been medicating his water for about 23 days now, so he must be drinking it or he would be showing obvious signs of dehydration or be dead by now, wouldn't he? He looks and acts fine other than looking thin. I'm sooo mad at myself for feeding him 2 more times after the first time he regurgitated! :mad: I'm still holding on to hope that his problems were just caused by the temperature/humidity/cold draft problems I was having in my snake room at the time this all started. It's seems pretty obvious to me that that must have been what caused my Ball Python's respiratory infection. Either way, Dexter is getting dewormed at the vet to be safe...

I didnt read all 8 pages of this but the last post, i wouldnt just throw deworming meds at him unless you know for a fact he has worms. He obviously is already having issues keeping food down. Generally, meds for reptiles are harsh and that could intensify his issues. You need to find out why he isnt able to hold down food and the explosive pooping. It almost sounds like a blockage of some sorts. He is wanting to eat it sounds like so i would say i dont think its a parasite issue, otherwise he would have a loss of appetite too.

Like i said, i am leaning towards a blockage most likely due to dehydration as you said he did poop. Eating uses a LOT of liquid for digestion so if he is already dehydrated, he possibly wouldnt be able to completely digest the food. I would drop him down to a size or two smaller in food to start with and i would give him unflavored Pedialyte. Not Gatorade or Powerade like some people say lol. You want no sugar or additives. I would also inject his food with pedialyte so you know for sure he is getting liquids. The explosive poop sounds like he is 'dry' and the urates are just dried out inside him creating blockage/plug and he has to squeeze really hard to 'shoot' it out. It is also a reason snakes can get prolapse. Having to push so hard to poop/pee it pops out part of their intestine.

But like i said, if the snake is acting normal and has an appetite, i would check into the hydration. Does he have any wrinkles or stuff? Pat for example got wrinkles around his neck which i am still not sure if it was the shed or partial dehydration. I sprayed him a lot and put elevated water bowls right next to him and he started drinking a LOT and now is filled back out. I never had the issue with the boas or anyone else but they werent shy and GTPs are prone to getting dehydrated.

If you are concerned about worms, get a fecal done first to confirm deworming is needed. It's like when i took Harley into the vet thinking she had an RI again and the vet checked her out and thought she was fine. She thinks the reason my beardie sits with partial open mouth is 1) its normal for beardies to sometimes go derpy and sit with a cracked open mouth and 2) Harley is really overweight(she weighs in at about 700g and is about 15 inches long). So since reptiles dont have diaphragms, they have to constrict their ribs to force the air out of their lungs. So with all the extra weight Harley is packing, it makes it harder for her to breath. If your vet is worth their salt, they wont just throw antibiotics at your reptile and will do a fecal or culture first to find out what is up.

But anyways, nothing wrong with getting a fecal done or culture done but do those first before throwing meds at your snake blindly.

Here is Harley in all her plump glory. No she isnt pregnant. She already laid 2 clutches of infertile eggs last summer lol.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...d35aaa75_b.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

It's like when i took Harley into the vet thinking she had an RI again and the vet checked her out and thought she was fine. She thinks the reason my beardie sits with partial open mouth is 1) its normal for beardies to sometimes go derpy and sit with a cracked open mouth and 2) Harley is really overweight(she weighs in at about 700g and is about 15 inches long). So since reptiles dont have diaphragms, they have to constrict their ribs to force the air out of their lungs. So with all the extra weight Harley is packing, it makes it harder for her to breath. If your vet is worth their salt, they wont just throw antibiotics at your reptile and will do a fecal or culture first to find out what is up.

But anyways, nothing wrong with getting a fecal done or culture done but do those first before throwing meds at your snake blindly.

Here is Harley in all her plump glory. No she isnt pregnant. She already laid 2 clutches of infertile eggs last summer lol.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...d35aaa75_b.jpg

---

At the risk of temporarily derailing this thread, my Nigel gaps periodically. Perfectly normal part of a Beardie's thermoregulating as it releases excess heat. If husbandry is perfect, and unless other symptoms are present, gaping alone is nothing to worry about.

Plus it's darn cute:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...6b124a84a4.jpg


Incidentally, Nigel wants me to tell Harley he said "hayyyy pretty lady!". Little dude's going thru puberty. :rolleyes:



Ok, back to Dexter! Watching intently to see what the vet says. Best wishes are with you and your gang.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I didnt read all 8 pages of this but the last post, i wouldnt just throw deworming meds at him unless you know for a fact he has worms. He obviously is already having issues keeping food down. Generally, meds for reptiles are harsh and that could intensify his issues. You need to find out why he isnt able to hold down food and the explosive pooping. It almost sounds like a blockage of some sorts. He is wanting to eat it sounds like so i would say i dont think its a parasite issue, otherwise he would have a loss of appetite too.

Like i said, i am leaning towards a blockage most likely due to dehydration as you said he did poop. Eating uses a LOT of liquid for digestion so if he is already dehydrated, he possibly wouldnt be able to completely digest the food. I would drop him down to a size or two smaller in food to start with and i would give him unflavored Pedialyte. Not Gatorade or Powerade like some people say lol. You want no sugar or additives. I would also inject his food with pedialyte so you know for sure he is getting liquids. The explosive poop sounds like he is 'dry' and the urates are just dried out inside him creating blockage/plug and he has to squeeze really hard to 'shoot' it out. It is also a reason snakes can get prolapse. Having to push so hard to poop/pee it pops out part of their intestine.

But like i said, if the snake is acting normal and has an appetite, i would check into the hydration. Does he have any wrinkles or stuff? Pat for example got wrinkles around his neck which i am still not sure if it was the shed or partial dehydration. I sprayed him a lot and put elevated water bowls right next to him and he started drinking a LOT and now is filled back out. I never had the issue with the boas or anyone else but they werent shy and GTPs are prone to getting dehydrated.

If you are concerned about worms, get a fecal done first to confirm deworming is needed. It's like when i took Harley into the vet thinking she had an RI again and the vet checked her out and thought she was fine. She thinks the reason my beardie sits with partial open mouth is 1) its normal for beardies to sometimes go derpy and sit with a cracked open mouth and 2) Harley is really overweight(she weighs in at about 700g and is about 15 inches long). So since reptiles dont have diaphragms, they have to constrict their ribs to force the air out of their lungs. So with all the extra weight Harley is packing, it makes it harder for her to breath. If your vet is worth their salt, they wont just throw antibiotics at your reptile and will do a fecal or culture first to find out what is up.

But anyways, nothing wrong with getting a fecal done or culture done but do those first before throwing meds at your snake blindly.

Here is Harley in all her plump glory. No she isnt pregnant. She already laid 2 clutches of infertile eggs last summer lol.

---

I have to agree with you in thinking that this probably isn't a parasite issue... So, it probably isn't a great idea to just have the vet do a broad range deworming. The problem with getting a fecal done is, he just emptied out a few weeks ago and hasn't kept a meal down since. So, I don't know if he has anything in there to be flushed out in order to get a sample... Just in case you aren't familiar with how slow Blood's metabolisms are, though, it is perfectly normal for them to explode in their enclosures like a rhinoceros once they finally go, because it's not unusual for them to retain it for months and even over a year in some cases. In Dexter's case, i've had him since 5/10/17. Since then he has defecated on 9/14/17, 10/23/17, 12/09/17 (massive!) and 12/26 (just a little)...

I strongly feel that due to how my temps and humidity were all over the place in combination with the drafts I discovered in my snake room (directly behind the rack Dexter is in) once it got cold, he probably wasn't properly digesting the last few meals he had eaten before he started regurgitating and that could be why he was looking so bloated before he finally emptied out? Also, I had been keeping the hot sides only around 82 - 84 degrees for my Bloods, because that seemed to be where they liked it. During the warmer months if I turned it up even one degree they would all be cramming to the front of their tubs and soaking in their water dishes 24/7. Now, I have their hot sides running around 85 - 87 degrees and they seem to be fine with it. So, I strongly feel this is/was some sort of digestive problem. What do you guys think? Does my thinking sound logical here?

Other than looking thin and needing to keep a few meals down, Dexter is looking great and is acting perfectly fine. He is bright and pretty and silky smooth and no signs of being lethargic or dehydrated. He pee'd last night and when I pulled him out to put him in a fresh clean tub he was being such a sweetheart and crawling around all over me and he acted like he didn't even want to go back in his tub. He kept crawling back out, actually and sticking his head up over the top of his tub looking at me. After I pushed his tub back in he was sorta pacing at the front of the tub for a bit. I felt like he was hungry and wanting to eat. Sooo... Tomorrow is his Dr. appointment and i'm not sure what to do. That should be the vet's job to figure out, though... Since I have to take 2 snakes and the office visit alone is going to be $100.00 I am going to be on an extremely limited budget at the vet. Especially, since the space heater in my snake room decided to stop working today now too on top of everything else that has been going wrong. There went another unexpected $75.00 replacing that today! I just can't catch a break lately... :( The Ball Python with the RI is definitely going to be getting antibiotics, but what do you guys think the cheapest and most feasible course of action should be for Dexter? I truly don't feel like this is a parasite issue... I'm definitely going to take the Nutribac with me, so I can make sure he gets a good dose of that tubed into him. What do you guys recommend?

Let us know how it went...

Hope you got good news, good meds and that your babies will be on the mend in no time !

Personally, like you said, i think it was a lack of heat that caused the regurg. Basically, the food just rotted in his gut. It's your call but me personally, i wouldnt take the blood in to the vet. The only thing the vet could do that would give answers would be a fecal or blood work. Blood work is expensive. I think when i had Harley's blood work done, it cost me around $150 or $200. Fecal floats are cheap. My vet charges like $30 for one. If you are a regular at the vet, he/she might work with you on the price if you explain you're in a bind. When i took Rosey in for her sinus infection, it came at the worst possible time for cash. I told my vet and she basically just charged me for the meds and office visit and gave me a pass on the culture of the liquid in her nose.

But anyways, i would for sure take the BP in as you said it clearly has an RI. But like i said, the blood, i would probably pass on it and raise the temps like you did and give him at least 2 weeks before trying to feed him again. Regurg is really hard on their system and after that, he will need time to rebuild his stomach acid supply, otherwise he could just regurg again and lose even more stomach acid and fluids. And i would mix in some unflavored pedialyte into his water which will help replenish electrolytes and stuff he lost from puking so much.

I most respectfully disagree..

If it had been one regurge, I could see waiting it out...

But we are talking about 3 regurges in a row. The last one AFTER a long break and nutribac.

Could it all still be related to the drafts and cold ? Perhaps. But 3 regurges in a row would make me nervous enough to not waste anymore time and see the vet stat. If nothing else, to at least rule out some stuff, and possibly get some treatment done (Nutribac paste??)

I know the timing is bad, and Vet visits can get expensive. However, 3 regurges can set the snake up for a chronic cycle that doesn't end well. Not even just from the original cause, but simply from the damage that is done to its system.

Ultimately, its always up to the owner, though. They know their snake best and they know how far they can take it, financially.

I do hope it all ends well !!

Well... I just got home from the vet... He checked Dexter over real good from top to bottom and he definitely isn't dehydrated. So, that's good news! I could tell he wasn't... So, he has obviously been drinking the Nutribac infused water that i've been giving him, which is also good news. I had him help me syringe a nice 1 gram dose of the Nutribac down him, though. The vet recommended deworming him just for good measure... I told him how some of you advised against it, but he still sent me home with 3 rounds of pannacur, which I will need to administer orally over the next 3 days... Fun fun! :O Other than that, he recommended that I try to feed him a small meal in 2 weeks and I will also continue the Nutribac water treatment...

I told the vet that little Dexter should get a rat flavored sucker for being such a good boy at his first visit to the doctors... lol I will post about Misty in the other thread I have going for her...

OHHH! I totally forgot to mention that the vet agreed completely that Dexter's problem was most likely brought on by the temperature and/or draft problems I was having. He said that cold drafts and temperatures being too low is the #1 cause for snakes regurgitating...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

Well... I just got home from the vet... He checked Dexter over real good from top to bottom and he definitely isn't dehydrated. So, that's good news! I could tell he wasn't... So, he has obviously been drinking the Nutribac infused water that i've been giving him, which is also good news. I had him help me syringe a nice 1 gram dose of the Nutribac down him, though. The vet recommended deworming him just for good measure... I told him how some of you advised against it, but he still sent me home with 3 rounds of pannacur, which I will need to administer orally over the next 3 days... Fun fun! :O Other than that, he recommended that I try to feed him a small meal in 2 weeks and I will also continue the Nutribac water treatment...

I told the vet that little Dexter should get a rat flavored sucker for being such a good boy at his first visit to the doctors... lol I will post about Misty in the other thread I have going for her...

OHHH! I totally forgot to mention that the vet agreed completely that Dexter's problem was most likely brought on by the temperature and/or draft problems I was having. He said that cold drafts and temperatures being too low is the #1 cause for snakes regurgitating...

---

I figured it was from the draft and improper temps. If kept too cold, the first regurg would be from the cold. The second regurg assuming you didnt wait 2-4 weeks to try and feed again, could have been from the cold+not enough time to build up the supply of stomach acids. Third regurg, well cold+2 times of not being given enough time to build up stomach acid again would be pretty obvious lol.

I personally disagree with throwing Panacur at the snake without even taking a fecal but thats just me. I;m not exactly sure if Panacur dehydrates reptiles like Baytril does but i would be sure to mix in pedialyte along with the nutribac so he doesnt get dehydrated assuming Panacur does dehydrate. If not, just stick to the nutribac then.

One he is done with the Panacur, i would be sure to feed on the smaller side for the next 4-5 feedings. Also be sure to raise the temps in the cage to speed up the snakes metabolism and help him get the Panacur through him. I'm sure your vet told you all this but figure just in case :D

BTW what did the vet give you for the BP RI? Fortaz? And have fun with the injections lol. I was always paranoid that i was going to stick the needle in too far with Harley and Rosey.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I figured it was from the draft and improper temps. If kept too cold, the first regurg would be from the cold. The second regurg assuming you didnt wait 2-4 weeks to try and feed again, could have been from the cold+not enough time to build up the supply of stomach acids. Third regurg, well cold+2 times of not being given enough time to build up stomach acid again would be pretty obvious lol.

---

That has been my thought exactly! I will be giving him the Panacur orally, not injections. The vet told me to bring in a fecal sample next time he goes...

For the Ball Python, he brought in a vitamins/Gentocin antibiotic injection and showed me how to give the injections. He sent me home with 6 more injections and I will have to inject her once every 3 days for the next 18 days... I'm not looking forward to having to do that, but I have no choice, but to put my big boy panties on, man up and do it! As mentioned in Dexter's thread, I will have to administer his medicine orally, So, on the bright side, I will be gaining some really good experience treating these two...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

That has been my thought exactly! I will be giving him the Panacur orally, not injections. The vet told me to bring in a fecal sample next time he goes...

For the Ball Python, he brought in a vitamins/Gentocin antibiotic injection and showed me how to give the injections. He sent me home with 6 more injections and I will have to inject her once every 3 days for the next 18 days... I'm not looking forward to having to do that, but I have no choice, but to put my big boy panties on, man up and do it! As mentioned in Dexter's thread, I will have to administer his medicine orally, So, on the bright side, I will be gaining some really good experience treating these two...

---

Oh yeah i figured orally for the Panacur. Was more referring to the BP. Lol yeah, its definitely an experience. Good luck man.

He could have gotten parasites from live feeders, that is definitely not unheard of...

Protozoans are another possibility, but those are usually found in imports/wildcaughts or reptiles from dealers that house imports/wildcaughts. However, back when I did rescue these infections were found in a few of them.

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Flag...estinal-Tract/

They are treated with different medication then internal parasites.

Be careful not to crank the heat up to much on them, they usually get quite unhappy and cranky when to warm. Try to get the temps perfect and then raise a couple degrees..

The only live feeder i've ever given him was his very last feeding that he regurgitated...

Any news ?

How is Dexter doing, and your other babies ?

Hope all is well.

Hi Zina,
Thanks for asking. :) I actually signed in just now to give an update on him. I decided against giving him the panacur, because the last thing I wanted was for the medicine to dehydrate him and cause any more digestive problems or anything. I don't think this was a parasitic issue, anyway. So, i've still just been treating his water with the Nutribac and I fed him a fuzzy 5 days ago and he kept it down. My plan is to feed him a weanling size rat every 7 days for at least the next couple of weeks and if he keeps them down, i'll bump him back up to small rats...

The Ball Python only has two more antibiotic injections to go and she is doing great except she is still refusing food. I would imagine the stress of getting tubed and jabbed with a needle every 3 days isn't helping. Hopefully after her treatments are done she'll start eating again...

If your snake only kept down a fuzzy then the next meal should be a pup 14 days later. If all goes well, then a small weanling after another 14 days. If all goes well, do 2-3 feedings on ten day intervals without going up in feeder size before moving to weekly feedings - and again, do 2-3 feedings before moving up in size to a small rat.

Regurge is very hard on a snake and you do not want to rush it back into eating.

Holy crap! Really? Alright... I'll do that... This poor guy must be starving, though...

He ate and kept down his last feeder on 12/11 and you said before that he had a major case of sausage butt. Starting him back onto food slowly may make him a little hungry but he's in no danger of starving to death.

FWIW with the exception of females that have just dropped a clutch and are thus really hungry, my adult BP's are all on a two week feeding schedule. Once they've matured they don't need weekly feedings. Even with that schedule they still average a feeder every three to four weeks on their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

He ate and kept down his last feeder on 12/11 and you said before that he had a major case of sausage butt. Starting him back onto food slowly may make him a little hungry but he's in no danger of starving to death.

FWIW with the exception of females that have just dropped a clutch and are thus really hungry, my adult BP's are all on a two week feeding schedule. Once they've matured they don't need weekly feedings. Even with that schedule they still average a feeder every three to four weeks on their own.

---

Dexter will only be 2 years old on June 30th. Once he is back on his regular feeding schedule shouldn't he be alright eating every 7 days again if he's holding food down good since he's still a growing boy? I've actually been really confused about when to cut Bloods back. It has been my understanding that they get cut back to a 14/21 day maintenance diet after around the 3 - 4 year mark when they start reaching maturity or once they're eating large rats. Do you know if that is correct? Dexter's girlfriend will be turning 3 years old around June and she even still has a lot of growing to do. All of my other Bloods and Short Tails will also be turning 2 years old around June and they all still have a lot of growing to do. They're all eating small rats every 7 days and have perfect body shapes. Blood and Short Tail growth rates seem to be length primarily for the first 2 - 3 years. Even my 3 year old still hasn't reached a point where she is putting on a lot of girth yet. I would definitely like to know when you're generally supposed to cut Bloods and Short Tails back if anyone knows for sure.

Male ball pythons can be mature enough to breed at nine months or even younger, though I wouldn't recommend it. A two year old male is a breedable adult.

Females take a year longer to mature. If they're up to 1500 grams breeders start to pair them when they're entering their third winter.

Can't help with the blood pythons.

As far as breeding goes, it is my understanding that Male Bloods should be 2 - 3 years old and weigh 5 - 7 pounds. Females should be at least 3 years old and weigh no less than 10 pounds. But, right now what I would really like to know is, at what point their feeding schedules should be cut back to 14/21 days...

I don't think there are any "set in stones" answers for that.

There are "guidelines" based on the species, its needs, its "usual" metabolism, etc. But when it comes right down to it, it all depends on the animal individually. ESPECIALLY if there has been a problem/issue.

Bloods metabolism works differently then some other snakes. Slower. They are also kept at lower temperatures. Over time it has been established that they do better with LESS food then originally thought. With bloods, you don't go by "girth" or else you'd have to feed rabbits before long. You also shouldn't feed as often. True, younger animals usually need to be fed more often then adults. But with bloods, I would err on the conservative side. The only reason to "rush" is to bring them up to size for breeding. And as with all snakes, size isn't everything. They have to be mature as well.

I know you do not "power" feed. I know the health of your animals is your priority, and you just want him to recover and thrive.

At this point I would be ultra ULTRA conservative with feeding him. He regurged not only once or twice, but THREE times. That to me is getting close to "scary" territory. Those regurges are very hard on the animals system and they can cause lasting damage resulting in chronic illness.

It will not hurt Dexter in the slightest to be a bit skinny for a few months. Once healthy, snakes recover pretty quickly. At this point, though, all that matters is that his intestinal and digestive tract is stressed as little as possible, while still providing him with some sustenance. You do NOT want another regurge.
I think bcr's feeding plan is actually very appropriate and I would be hesitant to try to speed this process up. Even if this entire issue ends up taking 6 month before things are back to normal 100%, that is still nothing compared to the lifetime of this animal. He will not stay "stunted" if you get him healthy. He will catch up, and it won't take all that long.

Of course, that is just in my opinion, what I would do. You are there, you know your snake and ultimately it is up to you and your gut feeling.

Going back to your question about when to change their feeding schedule.

Well, first of all I would not go UP in feeder size rapidly if fed once the week. Of course you do go up...but not going by the girth of the snake/girth of the rodent. Eventually the snake will let you know by slowing down by itself. Refusing a feed. Not being as "enthusiastic" about the food coming up. That is a good indicator to just stretch it out to 10 days, eventually 14 days.
There are guidelines, of course, but you always have to use them as a tool, while observing your animal and how it is doing on that schedule.

As a example, my large Ball Python male is NOT on a set schedule. It just doesn't work for him. I've had him for 8 years and I've gotten to know him well in that time. He is quite big and while medium rats are usually the largest prey you need for any Ball Python, he does better with large rats. With a medium, he sucks it down and angrily keeps hunting for more. With a large rat, he will eat and happily go rest. HE will tell me when he is ready for more. Sometimes its 2 weeks, sometimes 3 or 4 weeks. He has also taken breaks for months. He usually rests for 4 to 5 days after eating, then he will begin to lazily cruise around his cage. Its not "hunting" yet, more like checking things out, hanging out in different areas. This can go on for a few nights. Eventually the cruising will be more of a "hunting". He is more "tense", he looks around. His eyes will focus on things and get "dark" when he sees movement. That is when he is ready to eat.

Most of my others are on more of a "set" schedule. Although I'm not strictly on a set day. And I do skip feeding them while they are in shed.

Right now with Dexter I wouldn't worry about any guidelines or "what is usually done for that age/size". All that matters is to carefully and slowly bring him back to 100%. Being slow about it is so much better then risking a re-occurrence that would destroy all the progress you have made.

I hope things will continue to go well, I know how worried you are about your babies. Still crossing my fingers and toes !!

Yes... As much as I would love to start getting some weight back on this sweet little boy, I am definitely going to follow you and BCR's advice and take it extra slow. As far as the rest of my Bloods and Short Tails, i'm just going to keep doing what i'm doing. They're all eating, pooping, shedding and looking perfect. So, I must be doing the right things... :) I just go by body shape with all of my snakes. Especially with my Boas, Womas, Bloods and Short Tails. Just so you can still see their spines they aren't overweight. Ball Pythons, on the other hand, are sooo aggravating and i'm just happy when they will eat AT ALL... lol

Just a quick update on Dexter... As I last mentioned, he kept a fuzzy rat down on 1/29 and he kept it down... I offered a rat pup on 2/12, but he wouldn't eat. He was soaking in his water dish a lot at that point and I thought he was goin to shed, but he didn't. I discontinued the Nutribac water treatment about a week ago... He at a rat pup last night and so far, so good! He defecated (very little) today, but all he had in him was that little fuzzy rat. Hopefully he will continue holding the rat pup down and in two weeks I will give him a weanling size rat and see how that goes...

Perhaps he knew it was better to wait a bit longer?

Glad he took it yesterday, though, and now I'm crossing fingers and toes that he keeps it down !!!

Comon Dex, you can do it !!!

I feed my short tails weekly until they are about a year old, then go to every two weeks and most are on every three week schedules eating mediums by the time they are three years old. They have slow metabolisms, don't need food often or huge meals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I feed my short tails weekly until they are about a year old, then go to every two weeks and most are on every three week schedules eating mediums by the time they are three years old. They have slow metabolisms, don't need food often or huge meals.

---

I'm aware of how some people will cut them back to medium/large rats every 14 days (21 days for the ones that tend to get overweight) around 3 years of age or just continue to feed smaller prey items weekly. But, wow... Only every 14 days after they reach 1 year old, huh? What size prey are you feeding them at that point, Postal? With the exception of my soon to be 3 year old girl, all of my Bloods and Short Tails will be turning 2 years old and I give them one small rat every 7 days. None of them are overweight and they all still have a lot more growing to do. My 3 year old girl started refusing frozen/thawed for some reason a few months ago and started to get thin, so i've been giving her a live small rat every 7 days and on occasion a live medium. I don't think I would be comfortable risking any of my snake's safety feeding live large rats, so when she is ready for larger prey items I will most likely continue feeding her live mediums if I can't get her back on frozen/thawed at that point. Medium rats are the appropriate size prey for her at this point, so I think weekly small rats should be fine for her, wouldn't you guys think? Then once she is ready for large rats (probably within the next year) maybe I could switch her to a live medium every 10 days or something and just keep a close eye on her to make sure she isn't getting overweight?

Recent photos of this girl here:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...e-Matrix-Het-T

As a general rule of thumb, I base all of my animal's prey sizes and feeding schedules on individual animal size and body shape more so than their ages. I think it basically comes down to personal preference whether we feed larger prey items bi-weekly or smaller prey items weekly, eh? Feeding larger prey bi-weekly would definitely cut down on feeding costs, as well time spent feeding every week, which both sounds good to me! lol But, I guess another consideration is that snakes will digest smaller prey items much faster than larger prey, which would be a little easier on their systems. So, there is sorta a grey area...

My SSTP boy is 2200 gramm now. I feed him a large rat (200 gramm) every 10 to 12 days. He is in great shape.

My youngest is a 2016 and on smalls every other week but could be moved up easily as he's a piggy. The 2015 borneos, the girl eats like a pig and is on mediums every three weeks, the male is a poor eater so gets offered every 2 weeks a small rat. The 2013 and 2014 boys get mediums every three weeks and sometimes a large once a month, like 2-3 times a year. Once they are over a year old I wouldn't feed weekly at all, at least stretch every 10 days. They simply don't need food that often.

More good news for Dexter! I couldn't get a hold of any weanlings last week, so Dexter ate a rat pup on 2/25 then another on 3/02 (5 days later) and he kept them both down. :) So, here is a current summary of Dexter's ordeal...

- Regurgitated small rat on 12/05/17
- Ate small rat on 12/11/17 and kept it down
- Regurgitated small rat on 12/20/17
- Food break from 12/20/17 - 1/08/18
- Began treating water with Nutribac on 12/25/17
- Regurgitated small rat on 1/11/18 (about 56 hours after eating)
- Food break from 1/12/18 - 1/29/18
- Fed him a fuzzy on 1/29 and he kept it down
- Discontinued Nutribac treatment early/mid February
- Fed him a rat pup on 2/19 and he kept it down
- Fed rat pup on 2/25/18 and he kept it down
- Fed rat pup on 3/02/18 and he kept it down
- Very little handling throughout...

So, things are looking pretty good for Dexter, but I will feel a lot better once he is (hopefully) back on his regular size prey and normal feeding schedule without any more regurgitation issues and he has some weight back on. Since he ate 2 rat pups within 5 days last week, i'm going to give him another week off from feeding then I will try giving him a weanling every 14 days for a month. If he holds the weanlings down I will try giving him a small rat every 14 days for a month. And, finally, if he holds the small rats down I will try getting him back up to 1 small rat every 7 days...