Breeding Standards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Because my direct from Ralph Davis phantom is the smallest and in my opinion ugliest phantom in my collection.

---

Yep. But maybe not mine. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yes, maybe if the seller is nice they will warn you about the risks if you attempt to breed or any quirks the animal may have. In reality I have bought a few spiders in my day, even from people with stellar reputations. The people selling me the animals had no way of knowing how experienced I am and not once was I warned about what I was buying even when the animals were train wrecks. The only animal I have ever seen a warning on anywhere are desert females. I do not deal with any of the known kinkers so I cannot comment specifically on that defect.

---

Not to be off topic but I just purchased a caramel het hypo and a hypo het caramel to breed. Got both from the same person ready to breed. They never told me anything about caramel kinks. So my first breeding project will be more advanced than anticipated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

Not to be off topic but I just purchased a caramel het hypo and a hypo het caramel to breed. Got both from the same person ready to breed. They never told me anything about caramel kinks. So my first breeding project will be more advanced than anticipated.

---

This was the example that was actually in my head but I did not want to use you as an example unwillingly. When I heard what you bought I was wondering if you actually knew what you got into.

Is it the breeder's responsibility to assume their buyers aren't aware of the known issues with these morphs? It's not like anyone is trying to hide Spider wobble or Caramel kinking (that is variable from animal to animal anyway). When does it become the buyer's responsibility to make sure that they are reasonably informed about their purchase - before or after making that purchase?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

This was the example that was actually in my head but I did not want to use you as an example unwillingly. When I heard what you bought I was wondering if you actually knew what you got into.

---

No I didn't. But I know now and am prepared to deal with it. Glad I learned about it now I probably would have been rather worried when the eggs hatched and I had kinks thinking I did something wrong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Correct, however how about if the animal is not kinked and you don't know that the line has a kinking problem? I don't want to derail my own thread, but in this case an animal that is flawed at the foundation is being covered up by some pretty paint.

I fire people for this type of stuff in my business.

---

First are there lines that are prone to kinking? Assuming there are, if the seller wants to mislead you, no amount of standards are going to stop that. An outwardly perfect animal could come from one of these said lines. Yes I agree there should be standards about breeding some things that negatively effect the snake, but that is pretty common sense. When you start talking about "standards" I think most people go to color and pattern place, especially when you bring up morphs. Are you talking about a standard for all ball pythons like head/body shape, size, disposition, and feeding response? If so this is probably a standard for all ball pythons not by morph.

I'm really not sure how you can objectively evaluate the appearance of an animal. Everyone has their own preferences and I feel like whoever puts together this council (I'm assuming there would be more then one person judging the "quality" of each morph) will want to test the other member's ability to judge quality. This would be flawed in its own right because that would mean they would all have the same tastes or similar tastes to begin with.

Let's assume that instead of considering a specific set of traits as desirable we consider both ends of a spectrum as desirable, for example instead of considering minimal spots on a banana as the only standard we consider both high amounts of spotting and low amounts of spotting as different lines/breeds/characteristics. At the end of the day after considering every variable trait of every base morph (disregarding combos because that would be sooo much worse) you'd have so many different lines it'd be almost redundant.

I think it really is best to leave it up to the customer to consider what they think is a quality animal. Let them do the do-diligence to think ahead of time about what they want in their breeding projects (if that is why they are buying the animal) and evaluate whether the animal they're buying will help them reach their intended goal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Is it the breeder's responsibility to assume their buyers aren't aware of the known issues with these morphs? It's not like anyone is trying to hide Spider wobble or Caramel kinking (that is variable from animal to animal anyway). When does it become the buyer's responsibility to make sure that they are reasonably informed about their purchase - before or after making that purchase?

---

I will admit there is a level of absurdity with this example, but there are warnings labels. I have seen people sold things, where it was glaringly obvious that they had no idea what they were getting into. There is both buyer and seller responsibility for things. I have real katana that are hundreds of years old. For those not in the know these blades are also considered living works of art. There are ratings and there are the equivalent of morphs (different smiths with different techniques). Flaws in any blade are annotated and made known even though the buyer is expected to be very knowledgeable about what they are buying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kxr

I'm really not sure how you can objectively evaluate the appearance of an animal. Everyone has their own preferences and I feel like whoever puts together this council (I'm assuming there would be more then one person judging the "quality" of each morph) will want to test the other member's ability to judge quality. This would be flawed in its own right because that would mean they would all have the same tastes or similar tastes to begin with.

Let's assume that instead of considering a specific set of traits as desirable we consider both ends of a spectrum as desirable, for example instead of considering minimal spots on a banana as the only standard we consider both high amounts of spotting and low amounts of spotting as different lines/breeds/characteristics. At the end of the day after considering every variable trait of every base morph (disregarding combos because that would be sooo much worse) you'd have so many different lines it'd be almost redundant.

I think it really is best to leave it up to the customer to consider what they think is a quality animal. Let them do the do-diligence to think ahead of time about what they want in their breeding projects (if that is why they are buying the animal) and evaluate whether the animal they're buying will help them reach their intended goal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

If wine can be rated and priced accordingly a ball python can. I hate all wine, but ironically, i have learned if I really think it tastes like crap it is probably a higher rated wine. Mad Dog, works fine for me. LOL

Just want to be clear. I should have done my research b4 purchasing and do not blame the seller. But would have been nice had they mentioned it to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If wine can be rated and priced accordingly a ball python can. I hate all wine, but ironically, i have learned if I really think it tastes like crap it is probably a higher rated wine. Mad Dog, works fine for me. LOL

---

I'm not sure I buy into the whole "oh ho ho my wine is fancier then yours so I can charge an exorbitant amount for it". Then again, I don't drink very much and like you when I do it's not wine. Maybe my "palate" just isn't "sophisticated" enough...

Edit: I just googled it and apparently mad dog is wine... either way my point stands

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kxr

I'm not sure I buy into the whole "oh ho ho my wine is fancier then yours so I can charge an exorbitant amount for it". Then again, I don't drink very much and like you when I do it's not wine. Maybe my "palate" just isn't "sophisticated" enough...

Edit: I just googled it and apparently mad dog is wine... either way my point stands

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Ah, but this is exactly the game we are playing here. I don't like the taste of hypo but I can recognize the perceived value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Yep. But maybe not mine. :D

---

We should play a game just between us and see if we can agree who has the top phantom. And by the way, I have nothing against Ralph or his animals. I got the phantom from him that I did because it is het for lavender.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Ah, but this is exactly the game we are playing here. I don't like the taste of hypo but I can recognize the perceived value.

---

I'm not exactly sure how this compares to wine, like I said I'm no wine connoisseur, but I can agree with you in terms of mutations. You may not like hypo while I'm a big fan of hypo. I'm assuming you can see that hypo changes the appearance of the animal and you just don't like that change. I can say the same thing about one of the most popular mutations around, piebald.

Now that I type that out I realize you are trying to make the point that you don't have to like something to judge its quality. My point remains the same, do we consider both high and low white pieds as equally valuable traits and judge them accordingly or is one considered more desirable then the other? What about people who prefer midwhite pieds? There are so many different ways to define quality I think it would be difficult to set a standard for each different variation of each polygenic trait of each ball python mutation. It's not impossible but I think it'd be really messy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While this may seem like a good idea you will never get agreement among hobbyists. Some are purist but many like snakes that are "different". Unique animals, even if not genetic, typically go for a premium. What about a paradox? Or a ringer? They wouldn't fit a standard but the demand is huge for such snakes. I know this cinnamon champagne wouldn't fit a standard but I bet if I put her up for sale I'd get more for her not less.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/p...Champ%20Fe.jpg

A snake that is "slightly different" that's being sold for more money may not be a seller trying to pull off a fast one. I've always looked for BPs that were slightly different, or very different, and it's often paid off for me. I once bought a super mojave that just looked different to me. After talking with the seller a very well known breeder at the next table told me he's seen super mojaves that looked similar and he didn't think she was special. I bought her anyway as I wanted to produce crystals and I thought she had a neat look. I'm glad I liked her as she hatched this in her first clutch...

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/p...KingDinker.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Does any of that take away from the beauty your daughter sees/saw in the animal? Why?

Why not?

---

The answer to the first one is a little philosophical so I have no expectation of agreement. I will answer it with a question from my daughter. "Daddy why do all the other girls have dates with boys except Snow White?".

As to the why not question, anarchy is in no ones best interest. I am fine with I am right or the other guy is right.

Why all this is also important, if I kicked the bucket tomorrow and my family decided to sell off my collection, I would want them to get the most money possible for it.

It goes back to finding a consensus that's trusted. Who do you ask to be on the this founding committee? You'd want people that hobbyists and breeders will buy in to - people's whose opinions they trust - or you'll never get anyone to follow the standards that are set.

Step one - identify your committee. Step two - get them to agree to a standard.

Good luck with that. I just don't see it happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Green

While this may seem like a good idea you will never get agreement among hobbyists. Some are purist but many like snakes that are "different". Unique animals, even if not genetic, typically go for a premium. What about a paradox? Or a ringer? They wouldn't fit a standard but the demand is huge for such snakes. I know this cinnamon champagne wouldn't fit a standard but I bet if I put her up for sale I'd get more for her not less.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...amp%2520Fe.jpg

A snake that is "slightly different" that's being sold for more money may not be a seller trying to pull off a fast one. I've always looked for BPs that were slightly different, or very different, and it's often paid off for me. I once bought a super mojave that just looked different to me. After talking with the seller a very well known breeder at the next table told me he's seen super mojaves that looked similar and he didn't think she was special. I bought her anyway as I wanted to produce crystals and I thought she had a neat look. I'm glad I liked her as she hatched this in her first clutch...

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...KingDinker.jpg

---

Rarity is almost always worth more money and is in its own category. If I ever produced a two headed snake I would be on the phone to BHB in about two seconds because I have no doubt Brian would want it. A two headed snake holds no value for me but it is rare and odd. That in itself is enough to make someone pay big money for it.

As to your famous dinker.... On that day you were the smartest and luckiest guy in the room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

It goes back to finding a consensus that's trusted. Who do you ask to be on the this founding committee? You'd want people that hobbyists and breeders will buy in to - people's whose opinions they trust - or you'll never get anyone to follow the standards that are set.

Step one - identify your committee. Step two - get them to agree to a standard.

Good luck with that. I just don't see it happening.

---

Won't know until it's tried and it may turn out to be a good thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

The answer to the first one is a little philosophical so I have no expectation of agreement. I will answer it with a question from my daughter. "Daddy why do all the other girls have dates with boys except Snow White?".

---

Huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

As to the why not question, anarchy is in no ones best interest. I am fine with I am right or the other guy is right.

---

There it is. This is why at the very core you and I are different. I live in a world with incredible amounts of color, where you seem to live a very black and white existance. There is a time and place for right and wrong, but to compare differing opinions of percieved beauty to anarchy because of those opinions is beyond my comprehension.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Why all this is also important, if I kicked the bucket tomorrow and my family decided to sell off my collection, I would want them to get the most money possible for it.

---

That's a very noble cause and I commend you for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

It goes back to finding a consensus that's trusted. Who do you ask to be on the this founding committee? You'd want people that hobbyists and breeders will buy in to - people's whose opinions they trust - or you'll never get anyone to follow the standards that are set.

Step one - identify your committee. Step two - get them to agree to a standard.

Good luck with that. I just don't see it happening.

---

Definitely questions to be answered. As to it happening or not, you may be right or maybe not. I have always tried to do things others say cannot be done. I have been lucky enough to have come out in good shape with most of these endeavors. No pain no gain. At the end of the day experience is valuable, even bad experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Rarity is almost always worth more money and is in its own category. If I ever produced a two headed snake I would be on the phone to BHB in about two seconds because I have no doubt Brian would want it. A two headed snake holds no value for me but it is rare and odd. That in itself is enough to make someone pay big money for it.

As to your famous dinker.... On that day you were the smartest and luckiest guy in the room.

---

I used exaggerated examples of course but we all have different tastes and likes. I've put snakes up for sale where I thought one was nicer than the other and I'm often surprised by which one buyers want. Standards are tough.

I'd like to think it was luck, karma and genius lol. Probably in that order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dave green

i'd like to think it was luck, karma and genius lol. Probably in that order.

---

lol!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I have always tried to do things others say cannot be done. I have been lucky enough to have come out in good shape with most of these endeavors..

---

As we all have. Good luck in your quest :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Huh?

There it is. This is why at the very core you and I are different. I live in a world with incredible amounts of color, where you seem to live a very black and white existance. There is a time and place for right and wrong, but to compare differing opinions of percieved beauty to anarchy because of those opinions is beyond my comprehension.

That's a very noble cause and I commend you for it.

---

LOL, snake's name is snow white. My daughters are young and they tell me the snakes are going on a date when I put them in a tub together. I don't want to tell them the snake is too ugly to breed.

And yes, I am ex military, I do systems research and development for a living which is a fancy way of saying I am a software engineer that solves complex problems, so yeah, most of my life is pretty black and white. But I also listen to and play music. I like blues and can tell you good from bad. I can also listen to genres I hate and tell you good from bad. If music is not a taste thing I don't know what is. Even though it is art, it is rated, and there are "formulas" for creating things people would theoretically like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

LOL, snake's name is snow white. My daughters are young and they tell me the snakes are going on a date when I put them in a tub together. I don't want to tell them the snake is too ugly to breed.

---

:P But not "too ugly" for her. She still sees him as beautiful (as evidence by her questions) and not one bit of research you have done has changed that fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

And yes, I am ex military, I do systems research and development for a living which is a fancy way of saying I am a software engineer that solves complex problems, so yeah, most of my life is pretty black and white. But I also listen to and play music. I like blues and can tell you good from bad. I can also listen to genres I hate and tell you good from bad. If music is not a taste thing I don't know what is. Even though it is art, it is rated, and there are "formulas" for creating things people would theoretically like.

---

I never want to assume, but I had a feeling. :) To your point about music, I would argue that music is reviewed, not rated (except for explicit content by nervous parents!). I don't know of any rating system that would concretely define the best blues songs ever written (in THIS order) without there being a lot of differing opinions. To your point about that formula, I heard about that a few years ago. If I remember correctly, it was only about 60% accurate in determining hits and that the formula was geographically and era-biased. That says nothing more to me than 60% of record execs have a lowest-common-denominator formula in mind for what they think we want to listen to. Is 60% accurate good enough for a systems guy like yourself? :P

Music that's a comparison I can understand. And seems to fit better with all the differences in the morphs. I can see both sides of the coin now. Just because the song is metal and I like metal does not mean I like all metal. So of you look at the morphs as you would music then no there really is no way to put a quality label on it. I mean how much of the music played on the radio is utter crap? But many people must like it or it wouldn't be played. The same can go for morphs. Tho it would be nice to have something that did explain what your typical every day version of each is supposed to look like. Then there would bee a base line for each morph and one can better enjoy the artistic differences of each individual snake.

Eric, you seem like a good guy. We would probably get along in the real world. Your arguments are sound even if I don't necessarily agree with them. I have a good friend I go on long car trips to kendo tournaments. We have nothing in common other than kendo (another black and white thing). We have heated discussions every trip but they are always productive. Each of us walks away at least understanding the others viewpoints.

I think I may have created a little confusion, some of it intentional some not, so I am going to clarify a little. What I am proposing is not exactly what we are discussing. I first started thinking about this when I started playing around with writing some AI software which started out as something to pick up cavities on x-rays. I realized that the same code with a little tweaking might be able to distinguish ball python morphs. It is a silly project but it makes my brain work hard. I had to make the computer learn how to distinguish one morph from the other. In order to do that I first had to tell it the things to look for. Things like relative brightness, the number and saturation of colors, sharpness of borders, eye color etc. The software is learning and getting better the more I use it. My first test case was mojave vs phantom. The program is about 90% accurate on these two so far. I am trying to knock this thing out before my highway to normal clutch pops out. I am praying that the software can learn to distinguish gravel and yellowbelly because I and no one else I have heard of can do it with their eyes. The monetary reasoning for wanting to do this I am sure is clear.

In this process I realized I was also indirectly creating a rating system for particular morphs. I had to be able to show the computer acceptable ranges from my idea of perfect to just barely there. Right now I do not envision the computer being able to identify a five gene animal but putting hard parameters on a single gene is very doable. Other than hopefully being able to tell my gravels from yellowbellys there is no direct financial gain for me and even that money is peanuts. It is just a fun project. The same AI is being adapted for some currency exchange trading (this may actually make money lol).

What is to be gained by rating (I'm changing that word to defining) morphs?

People will have an easier time figuring out what morph that impulse buy is.
Single gene animals can make a comeback.
There is something other than a subjective value marker placed on an animal.
Blood lines can be certified and tracked.
Closet breeders stand a chance of competing with the big boys with an equal animal.
Line breeding for desired traits will pay off big.
There are many more.....

You would not be rating the animal as a whole, you are rating the individual attributes of the animal. And not just the paint. I would include temperament, potential size, and breeding viability. The buyer would be able to get the animal that meets their needs and in my bet would be willing to pay more for this reason. What happens to unwanted animals? The same thing as now.

Now that's interesting. I'm not sure I agree with all of the long-term benefits being worth the effort, but I can see where you're going with this.

How are you establishing your baseline? Where is the input "teaching" data coming from? Beyond your Mojave/Phantom example, have you expanded to any other morphs?

That's a very interesting software project. While the ball python morph recognition version might not be "worth" the effort just as a direct value proposition, I have a feeling there's a lot of uses for a good pattern recognition software like electronic conversion of old handwritten texts. Either way, "useful" applications or not, it's pretty interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Now that's interesting. I'm not sure I agree with all of the long-term benefits being worth the effort, but I can see where you're going with this.

How are you establishing your baseline? Where is the input "teaching" data coming from? Beyond your Mojave/Phantom example, have you expanded to any other morphs?

---

I am confident I can do pastel. Other than that the computer only knows my animals if that makes any sense. I just do not have enough single gene animals in the numbers it would take to establish greater accuracy. The program knows my lesser is a lesser but she is the only single gene lesser I have. Most of my single gene stuff is Mojave, Phantom and a few Pastels. All my yellowbelly stuff is tied up in Supers and ALS. I have two single gene enchis of the exact same quality. etc. I can pull images from the internet but it is very time consuming to find images that are good enough. The age of the animal is also a factor. The computer tells me yes that is a mojave but internally to the system it may be known as a hatchling mojave. You are right, it is time consuming because I am doing everything myself. Right now I am trying to gather data for yellowbellys and gravels. Problem is I do not trust the images on the internet to be accurate. I need to find someone that is 100% sure that they have a couple single gene gravels that would be willing to take some good pictures for me.

In hindsight, it would not help my gravel project, but I should have taken more pictures of the single gene animals I have produced and kept more holdbacks. I am really trying to keep the whole thing fun though so I am trying to limit the size of my collection. I am at around 50 animals right now. At around 100 its going to start smelling like work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kcl

That's a very interesting software project. While the ball python morph recognition version might not be "worth" the effort just as a direct value proposition, I have a feeling there's a lot of uses for a good pattern recognition software like electronic conversion of old handwritten texts. Either way, "useful" applications or not, it's pretty interesting.

---

Yeah, the pattern recognition and the AI itself have value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am confident I can do pastel. Other than that the computer only knows my animals if that makes any sense. I just do not have enough single gene animals in the numbers it would take to establish greater accuracy. The program knows my lesser is a lesser but she is the only single gene lesser I have. Most of my single gene stuff is Mojave, Phantom and a few Pastels. All my yellowbelly stuff is tied up in Supers and ALS. I have two single gene enchis of the exact same quality. etc. I can pull images from the internet but it is very time consuming to find images that are good enough. The age of the animal is also a factor. The computer tells me yes that is a mojave but internally to the system it may be known as a hatchling mojave. You are right, it is time consuming because I am doing everything myself. Right now I am trying to gather data for yellowbellys and gravels. Problem is I do not trust the images on the internet to be accurate. I need to find someone that is 100% sure that they have a couple single gene gravels that would be willing to take some good pictures for me.

In hindsight, it would not help my gravel project, but I should have taken more pictures of the single gene animals I have produced and kept more holdbacks. I am really trying to keep the whole thing fun though so I am trying to limit the size of my collection. I am at around 50 animals right now. At around 100 its going to start smelling like work.

---

The easiest way for you to do this would be to buy a male super gravel and breed it to all your single/double gene animals. That way you'll know anything that isn't a combo is a gravel. Unfortunately you probably don't have 5k sitting around to purchase a super gravel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kxr

The easiest way for you to do this would be to buy a male super gravel and breed it to all your single/double gene animals. That way you'll know anything that isn't a combo is a gravel. Unfortunately you probably don't have 5k sitting around to purchase a super gravel

---

You are of course right. The problem is my mentality. Once I start dropping that kind of cash I will go into money making mode and I am really trying to keep this at a hobby level. The most expensive animals I have allowed myself to purchase are my male and female highways. I didn't get involved in YB until last year. All my YB complex females are up to size but they are only two. So far it is not looking like they are a go this year. My male went to a normal who I am pretty sure is going to go, so I am looking at quite a few holdbacks if I don't figure out how to tell them apart. The other consideration is what started this thread in the first place. Super Gravels were 8k last year, now down to 5k. So, if my male turns out to be a dud I will pick up a Super Gravel male next season. If my luck holds it will take me no more than six months to get him ready to roll. To make matters even more difficult I have a Puma involved in this mess and I don't know how to identify a Spark either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

You are of course right. The problem is my mentality. Once I start dropping that kind of cash I will go into money making mode and I am really trying to keep this at a hobby level. The most expensive animals I have allowed myself to purchase are my male and female highways. I didn't get involved in YB until last year. All my females are up to size but they are only two. So far it is not looking like they are a go this year. My male went to a normal who I am pretty sure is going to go, so I am looking at quite a few holdbacks if I don't figure out how to tell them apart. The other consideration is what started this thread in the first place. Super Gravels were 8k last year, now down to 5k. So, if my male turns out to be a dud I will pick up a Super Gravel male next season. If my luck holds it will take me no more than six months to get him ready to roll. To make matters even more difficult I have a Puma involved in this mess and I don't know how to identify a Spark either.

---

I'm actually glad that you brought that up. I plan to purchase a super gravel in the future but I want to produce some yellowbelly female hold backs before I do. That means I'm a good 4-5 years away and by that time they'll likely actually be (somewhat) affordable. :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kxr

I'm actually glad that you brought that up. I plan to purchase a super gravel in the future but I want to produce some yellowbelly female hold backs before I do. That means I'm a good 4-5 years away and by that time they'll likely actually be (somewhat) affordable. :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Not a bad way to go if you are not as impatient as I am. Even if the super gravel price continues to plummet, I think there is a lot of potential in combos with it. Some of the Highway combos are looking pretty hot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Not a bad way to go if you are not as impatient as I am. Even if the super gravel price continues to plummet, I think there is a lot of potential in combos with it. Some of the Highway combos are looking pretty hot.

---

Or, if you're anything like me, if you happen to miss on the Highway combos in one upcoming pairing, you've still got 4 other awesome genes at play and an identical back-up pairing just in case. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Not a bad way to go if you are not as impatient as I am. Even if the super gravel price continues to plummet, I think there is a lot of potential in combos with it. Some of the Highway combos are looking pretty hot.

---

I totally agree but I have other fish I'm going after first. That's why I'm okay with waiting so long for a super gravel lol

I plan on picking up two animals this season. One will likely be a female desert ghost combo and the other a female clown combo. I'm trying to limit the number of animals I pick up. At the rate I'm going it'll be a long time until I have 50 animals lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Or, if you're anything like me, if you happen to miss on the Highway combos in one upcoming pairing, you've still got 4 other awesome genes at play and an identical back-up pairing just in case. ;)

---

[emoji19] Showoff! [emoji14]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's surprising to me that this is such a debated topic. Better looking animals are going to cost more. Supply and demand do drive prices. The new hot morphs are going to cost more until they become more available. BPs are judged by their colors and patterns. They aren't like dogs where different builds and body mass come into play. That's what I call breed standards. Its not just colors. Other than sickly individuals not being desirable, BPs are all shaped the same. They just look different and they cost different amounts based on those colors and patterns. I think it's all about making smart choices when you buy. if you are buying from a breeder you can ask questions and request pictures it should be a pretty safe process. If you are buying from a larger outlet where you don't pick the specific animal and are just buying X and get what they send you, it can get dicey. That's your fault for buying from them. There are so many options these days. There is something for everyone at pretty much every price point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Why all this is also important, if I kicked the bucket tomorrow and my family decided to sell off my collection, I would want them to get the most money possible for it.

---

well, unless the standard is based on your preference, this may not turn out the way you'd like.