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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by voodoolamb
interesting reads, although like everything must be interpreted. The first article had to do with know carcinogens in humans. Probably the same as in dogs, but what quantity is needed to be an issue. A tablespoon a day? I doubt it. The second article might be more interesting if it wasn't written by someone who has something to gain by saying what he is saying. He is a promoter of health foods for dogs. Does he have an agenda, I say yes. He is also a proponent of feeding dogs raw meat. I have actually at one point thought about this so I have done a little research on the idea. A very respected vet I know advised against it. Yes, he admitted it could be good for some dogs, but there are a number of dogs that will develop permanent or long last irritable bowel syndrome. This is a condition I don't want any of my dogs to get. So everyone who has a good idea, there are side effects to each of them. I don't have any fat or overweight dogs, but if i did I would watch what they eat. I actually monitor my dogs weight very closely to make sure they are not loosing to much or gaining to much weight. During the height of the hunting season I make sure they are not dropping weight, and actually prefer them to put on 2-4 pounds. In the off season sure they stay at 51 to 53 pounds each. That is their ideal weight.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcycling
interesting reads, although like everything must be interpreted. The first article had to do with know carcinogens in humans. Probably the same as in dogs, but what quantity is needed to be an issue. A tablespoon a day? I doubt it. The second article might be more interesting if it wasn't written by someone who has something to gain by saying what he is saying. He is a promoter of health foods for dogs. Does he have an agenda, I say yes. He is also a proponent of feeding dogs raw meat. I have actually at one point thought about this so I have done a little research on the idea. A very respected vet I know advised against it. Yes, he admitted it could be good for some dogs, but there are a number of dogs that will develop permanent or long last irritable bowel syndrome. This is a condition I don't want any of my dogs to get. So everyone who has a good idea, there are side effects to each of them. I don't have any fat or overweight dogs, but if i did I would watch what they eat. I actually monitor my dogs weight very closely to make sure they are not loosing to much or gaining to much weight. During the height of the hunting season I make sure they are not dropping weight, and actually prefer them to put on 2-4 pounds. In the off season sure they stay at 51 to 53 pounds each. That is their ideal weight.
Meh. I feed raw and home cooked food for my dogs for over 20 years. I believe variety in food is the most important aspect of feeding. My current vet recommends against feeding kibble. But anywho...
Regardless of personal feeding philosophies, you need to keep in mind you are an atypical dog owner. Your dogs get appropriate amounts of exercise and do legitimate work. They can handle an extra 200 - 300 calories a day. Probably even need it. Most American pets cannot. It's the equivalent of giving them an extra scoop of food. The dog the OP is talking about is a extremely under exercised young dog that already looks like he has some meat on his bones and is a breed prone to weight gain.
Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoolamb
Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.
Another alternative is to fill the Kong with a portion of the dog's daily ration of kibble and use a teaspoon or so of peanut butter to seal the opening, then freeze. That's what we do in the shelter here and the dogs love it. Still maybe not the best choice for a daily treat unless the dog gets exercised a lot more, but better than using only peanut butter, at least.
For that matter, rotating between various fillings will keep the dog engaged with the toy longer and make it more intellectually valuable from day to day.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents
You might also tell your roomate that, being this dog is a lab, the destruction is not only absolutely 100% going to GET WORSE as the dog gets older, it will probably also consume the stuff its destroying and eventually need several thousand dollars worth of surgery to remove whatever object from its stomach or intestines.
Oh I pointed this out HEAVILY when I was talking to him about the remotes.
He could have swallowed the batteries...
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by redshepherd
Wait, have you suggested an indoor kennel run? I know that is what I'll be using if any of my next dogs have destructive behavior/separation anxiety. They're just a large confined space.
Please suggest to your roommate to contact a positive dog trainer local to you who is experienced in behavior modification. (The term is "behavior modification" which includes special methods of training) That's really the best thing to do right now, since she doesn't want to rehome or get a crate apparently. I didn't read the whole thread, but it doesn't seem like finding a local trainer (NOT petco/petsmart) was mentioned.
I haven't yet. Never heard of an indoor kennel run to be honest. I have spoken to him about training courses. He wanted to do Petsmart because the "first class is free."
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoolamb
Meh. I feed raw and home cooked food for my dogs for over 20 years. I believe variety in food is the most important aspect of feeding. My current vet recommends against feeding kibble. But anywho...
Regardless of personal feeding philosophies, you need to keep in mind you are an atypical dog owner. Your dogs get appropriate amounts of exercise and do legitimate work. They can handle an extra 200 - 300 calories a day. Probably even need it. Most American pets cannot. It's the equivalent of giving them an extra scoop of food. The dog the OP is talking about is a extremely under exercised young dog that already looks like he has some meat on his bones and is a breed prone to weight gain.
Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.
that is probably true of my dogs and the dogs I train. I train them to hunt first then worry about household behaviors. My dogs are probably a little atypical of most working dogs also because they are family pets also, most working dogs are not and spend a great deal of time alone. My opinion is based on the fact that the dogs need exercise first. It's much easier to train any dog that is not working on a full tank. When I train dogs to work or "behave" in the house, they are always exercised first. A well exercised dog will train much easier after a run than before. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who has no clue what they are doing, but the first thing a dog needs to learn is the come cammand. Once the dog listens to that 100% of the time the dog can then be exercised appropriately. A walk on a leash, or even going running with your dog doesn't cut it. I jog with my dogs, and any I am training, every morning. That is not exercise for them. They don't even pant or want water after 2-3 mile jog. Dogs need to run at their own pace to get their energy out.
My my opinion of the dog who is in question. One or two things will happen. One it will chew and swallow something it shouldn't and probably die, or the persons roommate will eventually move and not be able to take the dog, at which point it will be dumped on someone else. Those are the dogs that can be great rescues if someone knowledgable can put some time into them.
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The solution is easy if it is YOUR dog do what is necessary to prevent the behaviour, tons of good advice have alreay been offered.
If it's NOT your dog, move out or have your roommate and his dog move out, if this is the same roommate you were having issues with regarding your snake it won't be a loss anyway, if it is a different roommate than you need to start choosing your roommates a little more wisely or live on your own.
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Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcycling
that is probably true of my dogs and the dogs I train. I train them to hunt first then worry about household behaviors. My dogs are probably a little atypical of most working dogs also because they are family pets also, most working dogs are not and spend a great deal of time alone. My opinion is based on the fact that the dogs need exercise first. It's much easier to train any dog that is not working on a full tank. When I train dogs to work or "behave" in the house, they are always exercised first. A well exercised dog will train much easier after a run than before. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who has no clue what they are doing, but the first thing a dog needs to learn is the come cammand. Once the dog listens to that 100% of the time the dog can then be exercised appropriately. A walk on a leash, or even going running with your dog doesn't cut it. I jog with my dogs, and any I am training, every morning. That is not exercise for them. They don't even pant or want water after 2-3 mile jog. Dogs need to run at their own pace to get their energy out.
My my opinion of the dog who is in question. One or two things will happen. One it will chew and swallow something it shouldn't and probably die, or the persons roommate will eventually move and not be able to take the dog, at which point it will be dumped on someone else. Those are the dogs that can be great rescues if someone knowledgable can put some time into them.
OOOOOOOoooooohhhhhh. Duh....That makes sense... I mean we can't lose weight by chewing gum, so why would a dog?
Speaking of... I really think the destructive habits would cease if dogs had gum to chew... I know I stop fiddling with stuff when I am chewing gum. [emoji38]
My roommate owns the dog and the house. I am just renting a room to help him with mortgage while his daughter is in college.
So one of three things will happen...
1.) The dog will chew something it shouldn't and get seriously hurt/die
2.) I will eventually move out and while this won't make too much of a difference for the dog, my Roommate will likely feel overwhelmed and rehome it on his own anyways
3.) My roommate will get abusive towards the dog.
And to clarify that 3rd option, this is just based on observations of frustration and lack of communication and to my knowledge this can blossom very quickly into abusive venting of frustration. (My roomie treated the dog ALL day with "I'm mad at you, [Nickname he's given the dog that is the Spanish equivalent to "DumbButt"]" and just shoved him outside and verbally told me to not play with the pup because he was in trouble.)
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by Deborah
...move out... if this is the same roommate you were having issues with regarding your snake it won't be a loss anyway...
Well, at this moment, the problem with that is simply that it's cheap rent for me. In the area, the lowest payment I can find is an efficiency apartment at $350, but that's not including utilities, which can easily make a monthly payment of $450-$500 if I'm living on a very tight budget, which I cannot afford. And the majority of apartments around here do not allow pets of any kind. Those that do have a "no exotic" rule.
So my only hope is finding Prince Charming and moving in with him in hopes that he likes snakes.... lol I'm joking... kinda.
Herp Derp
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I mean... I guess it sounds like the roommate is not even open to real solutions right now anyway, so there's not really any need to make the thread except to find out what "could have" worked.
Maybe when she gets actually desperate for a solution in the future, you can recall this thread and suggest her to follow it.
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Solution
I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner Find it a good home. Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.
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Re: Solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcycling
I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner Find it a good home. Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.
Hahaha. Funny joke. If only things could be that easy.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by redshepherd
I mean... I guess it sounds like the roommate is not even open to real solutions right now anyway, so there's not really any need to make the thread except to find out what "could have" worked.
Maybe when she gets actually desperate for a solution in the future, you can recall this thread and suggest her to follow it.
He asked me to help him. I tried then when I couldn't find a solution on my own, I came here. -shrug- sorry if this offended you. I can't do anything to the dog without his ok.
What I can do, though, is while he is in Mexico for a couple weeks I'd take the puppy out for a jog every day. Unless the daughter takes the puppy. I don't know.
Herp Derp
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Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcycling
I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner Find it a good home. Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.
I said this to him as a joke a while ago. In response to him saying he'd make my snake into a taco.... [emoji38]
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWheatley
He asked me to help him. I tried then when I couldn't find a solution on my own, I came here. -shrug- sorry if this offended you. I can't do anything to the dog without his ok.
What I can do, though, is while he is in Mexico for a couple weeks I'd take the puppy out for a jog every day. Unless the daughter takes the puppy. I don't know.
Herp Derp
It sounds to me like he doesn't really want help. What he'd LIKE to happen is that he waves a magic wand, and the dog is perfect, if I'm interpreting your written words correctly.
Dogs take work, lots of it. And I wouldn't even CONSIDER getting a dog unless it was crate trained. My 22 month old golden retriever did not earn unsupervised time out of the crate until he was 11 months old, then only at night, and gradually all the time.
Because he was in his crate when we couldn't constantly have eyes on him - he never developed destructive behavior. We also knew that we would have to provide him both mental and physical activity. He is a titled dock diving dog, and we're working towards titling him in nosework. Do the titles mean anything to me? Not as much as the joy my dog has doing these activities. And the joy I get from sharing in those moments with him.
And he gets almost daily visits to the dog park (there's some risk in that, but it's a risk that is worth it for us, because it's really the only off leash area where he can truly run and stretch his legs). We generally have the same core dogs after work and on weekends, because we all seem to consistently show up at the same time.
Regarding food - Noah is kept very lean and athletic to help in minimizing his chances of getting cancer (65% of golden retrievers dies of either hemangio sarcoma, lymphoma or osteosarcoma). He gets 2 cups of food a day (1 cup 2x a day) of his food. We also supplement with steamed and pulverized vegetables, coconut oil, Grizzly Salmon Oil and one raw egg every other day, some days including the shell, some days not. On particularly athletic days, he gets a little more, on more sedentary days, he gets a little less. It's also why we've decided to keep him intact, because I believe the hormones are also important to their long term health.
Obese dogs increase their risk of cancer by many times (even slightly obese - what the average pet owner things is healthy weight). Extra weight on a large dog is also a recipe for early onset arthritis too.
I was going to shamelessly post a picture of my boy, the dog who makes my heart sing and makes me smile and fall in love a little more each day, but I realized my job has blocked photobucket. :(
I will conclude with this outsider observation.
Your room mate is not ready for a dog right now. He's not willing to put in the WORK himself to teach this dog the rules. Dogs thrive on understanding what we want - but throwing them out in the yard teaches them nothing. It take consistency and repetition.
He's surely not ready for THIS dog, who deserves to have an owner that appreciates his intelligence and loyalty and will put in the time and effort.
As others have already said - this situation is not going to get better - it's only going to get worse.
If he truly cares about the dog - forget about the AKC registration and papers and the money - Noah is also papered AND titled - and if I ever came to the point I couldn't provide him with the home he deserved (God forbid), I'm not trying to recoup money I put into him. His happiness and well being as a living, breathing, loving animal is my number one motivation to do the right thing, not money.
I had to do the same thing with my ball python collection - I came to the point that I could no longer provide them the care and attention that they deserved (the only rat wholesaler within 2 hours of me closed up shop - and I was paying full retail to feed 60+ snakes). I could have had a going out of business sale and tried to recoup my investments, but seeing that they went to a home (in this case, two different homes - they were split), that could care for them better than I could was more important to me. One of them is an Old Guard moderator on here. At the point I made the decision, my joy for keeping them had been sucked out of me. $300 a week to feed them will do that to you.
In any case - I urge you to try to get your room mate to see that right now, this is not the dog for him. Maybe rescue a senior dog instead - one that doesn't demand so much attention at this stage in their life.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Can't say I 100% agree with all dogs needing to be crate trained, depends on the dog. My husky was never crate trained and she was/is as good as gold. It is a good thing to train, but I don't think it's always a necessity.
Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraido
Can't say I 100% agree with all dogs needing to be crate trained, depends on the dog. My husky was never crate trained and she was/is as good as gold. It is a good thing to train, but I don't think it's always a necessity.
Regardless, in this situation it 100% is necessary. This poor dog is going to ingest something he shouldn't and die really early if Roommate doesn't get his head out of his tuchus and learn what it means to be a responsible, ethical pet owner.
Unfortunately, given KW's comment about the dog being shoved outside and ignored all day for doing something wrong, I doubt that's going to happen. I know exactly what kind of owner this dog has, because we see them bringing their undertrained, unsocialized animals into our shelter and dumping them on us all the time-- and more often than not putting them down for major behavioral issues, too.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by Nellasaur
Regardless, in this situation it 100% is necessary. This poor dog is going to ingest something he shouldn't and die really early if Roommate doesn't get his head out of his tuchus and learn what it means to be a responsible, ethical pet owner.
Unfortunately, given KW's comment about the dog being shoved outside and ignored all day for doing something wrong, I doubt that's going to happen. I know exactly what kind of owner this dog has, because we see them bringing their undertrained, unsocialized animals into our shelter and dumping them on us all the time-- and more often than not putting them down for major behavioral issues, too.
I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraido
I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.
Gotcha :gj:
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
If I didn't have to work as often, I'd have a husky or German shepherd. I'd be working with either of them to teach them show-tricks just for the fun of it.
Would I be successful? Heck if I know. But I think the training alone would be fun for the puppy. Most dogs have such a drive to please their owner. It saddens me when people don't get that.
In this case, though, I'd say it's the equivalent to the horse owners around Lexington.
There are a huge majority of horse owners who own horses and farms just to SAY they own them. They don't do anything with them except have the horses stalled. It's so disturbing to me.
I don't get the culture of owning just for the sake of owning. I relish in the thought of utilizing an animal to its potential. Perhaps only to show it off, yes, but the joy between pet and owner of doing something together seems like such a pleasant way to bond.
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
I think my next pet, rather than a dog, if not another reptile, will be a bird. Though a lot more work, and a lot messy...
To be honest... I'm working myself step by step to be a vet through individual animal experience. Eventually I'd like to go to school and get a degree, but I want to have experience with animals first.
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraido
I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.
Let me clarify a bit - Noah wasn't crate trained when we first picked him up - we trained him to the crate.
For US, we have always crate trained our puppies, and they've "graduated" from the necessity of crating them after they reach a year old, and they've also still chosen to go into their crates on their own (door open) after that.
And, since we do dog sports, a crate is necessary at many of the events, while you're waiting for your turn - it's a quiet place for them to rest, drink water and cool off (I have a fan blowing directly on him in the summer).
So I value a dog that has been crate trained, for various reasons.
And just because - a few pictures of my boy.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...psue1v4khc.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...psmdddu2vs.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...psy0narruf.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...pshsuv90pc.jpg
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
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Originally Posted by rabernet
Such fab...
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
My roommate and I hit an understanding.
Being Mexican, part of their culture growing up is learning from their own mistakes. If they want to touch the stove top so bad, the parents let them, so they can learn. At least this is what my roommate told me.
So I explained to him that to some extent, dogs are like children, yes, but with severe short term memory loss. We had watched Finding Nemo + Dory (I love those movies) and I told him to picture the puppy like he is Dory. Extremely high energy, very excitable, eager to please, and in seconds will forget whatever it was that was happening before.
So let's say the dog chews a remote and poops on the floor at the same time. A noise happens that distracts him. He checks it out. Owner is coming home. All come back to the crime scene. "Whoa! Who did this!??" *sniff* "Oh... oh that's my poo. I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
I'm just saying in general it is not ALWAYS necessary for everyone.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraido
I'm just saying in general it is not ALWAYS necessary for everyone.
I'll give you that, but it's the rare puppy that's been perfect from the very start. In most cases, I believe a crate (or X-Pen) is an important tool in raising a well balanced dog.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingWheatley
So let's say the dog chews a remote and poops on the floor at the same time. A noise happens that distracts him. He checks it out. Owner is coming home. All come back to the crime scene. "Whoa! Who did this!??" *sniff* "Oh... oh that's my poo. I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*
Honestly, KW, even that's still not quite right, and the only reason I'm still harping on this is because getting it right is a big part of effective training and behavior mod with dogs. The pupper isn't thinking "I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*; that still implies a certain amount of associative thinking that most dogs just don't have. What the pup is thinking in this situation is "Oh that's my poo. And my people are angry and yelling. What's in the room-- poo? Poo makes my people angry, so I must never poo around them again. *sad, anxious puppy*" He's not associating the ACT of defecating with the response, he's associating the very presence of the stool with the owner's angry response. Or, alternatively, he won't be able to consistently associate ANYTHING with the owner being angry or upset, and then learns that his owner's moods are capricious and unpredictable and that he should always be afraid around his owner.
Again, that's why it's super super important to avoid showing anger and upset after the fact when destruction or accidents are found. The only thing that could possibly do is teach the dog to be afraid of either random items or locations in the home, or of the owners.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nellasaur
Honestly, KW, even that's still not quite right, and the only reason I'm still harping on this is because getting it right is a big part of effective training and behavior mod with dogs. The pupper isn't thinking "I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*; that still implies a certain amount of associative thinking that most dogs just don't have. What the pup is thinking in this situation is "Oh that's my poo. And my people are angry and yelling. What's in the room-- poo? Poo makes my people angry, so I must never poo around them again. *sad, anxious puppy*" He's not associating the ACT of defecating with the response, he's associating the very presence of the stool with the owner's angry response. Or, alternatively, he won't be able to consistently associate ANYTHING with the owner being angry or upset, and then learns that his owner's moods are capricious and unpredictable and that he should always be afraid around his owner.
Again, that's why it's super super important to avoid showing anger and upset after the fact when destruction or accidents are found. The only thing that could possibly do is teach the dog to be afraid of either random items or locations in the home, or of the owners.
I caught myself thinking "you literally repeated what I said but worded it different."
I think now it's either semantics or I'm just stupid...
I'll go with the latter.
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
My roommate is taking him out on runs now :) he hasn't chewed anything up for a couple days. :gj:
Herp Derp
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabernet
I'll give you that, but it's the rare puppy that's been perfect from the very start. In most cases, I believe a crate (or X-Pen) is an important tool in raising a well balanced dog.
Totally, I don't disagree that it's a very important tool in most cases. I was in highschool when we got my puppy, but we had gotten her during the summer break, so I was home all the time and we took mostly the puppy-proofing. So that made things a lot easier I think. Life is a lot easier with crate training, no doubt.
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Re: Help with Lab Puppy
Update:
Roommate followed advice for a couple days, then apparently just stopped.
I got home from work and puppy was fine. I had to stop him from chewing up the linoleum... Sent my roommate a text saying he needs to get a cage to stop him from eating the linoleum because I couldn't imagine the chemicals in the glue to be good for the dog.
Left for work that night and I get a phone call from my roommate. The puppy is very sick. Puking up water. He wanted me to take care of him since he was taking a plane 5 hours later and it was the middle of the night. I told him that he needed to go to the Vet as it could be anything from a severe cold to him eating something he shouldn't have.
(I read online that some people mistake a dog coughing to be puking.)
When I got back home in the morning, the dog was standing in a puddle of mucus water in the laundry room (his room) and my roommate's mom was coming to take him to the vet.
Tomorrow he will be going in for XRays. The Vet is sure he ate a sock, apparently? I really think it's the linoleum.
I told my roommate that if the dog survives the ordeal that he needs to put serious consideration into finding a new home, as the person who wanted the dog in the first place hasn't done her part in taking care of him, and is moving in with her boyfriend without the puppy, and roommate can't put his social life on hold to take responsibility to take care of the dog...
Herp Derp
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