Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?

This is probably due to my religious background but the belief that humans have a soul and animals do not would make comparing the ethics of the two completely apples to oranges. I however also fully accept that there are intelligent, good hearted people who have beliefs different than mine so to each his/her own.

Willowy I agree with what you said. I think the issue is how much is this condition affecting the animals that we are missing.

Enginee, I whole heartily disagree. I do appreciate your acceptance. Talks of science and the soul historically do not go well.

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If I have to justify its quality of life than I have no interest. This is especially true in animals that it is hard to judge how well they are. Just because an animal attains the basics for life such as breeding, eating, and of course not dying, is it truly living a good life?

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In captivity

Spider: Eat, poop, shed, breed

Other mutations: Eat, poop, shed, breed

Should make you wonder if the mutations you keep really have a quality of life in captivity as well. :confusd:


We are talking about snake here not dogs, not human SNAKES

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Originally Posted by Deborah

In captivity

Spider: Eat, poop, shed, breed

Other mutations: Eat, poop, shed, breed

Should make you wonder if the mutations you keep really have a quality of life in captivity as well. :confusd:


We are talking about snake here not dogs, not human SNAKES

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I should worry about my snakes having possible unknown issues? Seems like an exercise in futility. I thought we were discussing a known issue in the spider morph.

I think the point is that we do not know that it is an issue. The fact that the majority of spiders thrive would make this clear. We are not trying to justify the morph, we are pointing out that (other than the small percentage that do not thrive and must be culled) the mutation and neurological disorder is only an issue for some of the people that see it.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

I should worry about my snakes having possible unknown issues? Seems like an exercise in futility. I thought we were discussing a known issue in the spider morph.

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What issue they move around fine, eat fine, shed fine, poop fine, breed fine how is their quality of life any different than another mutation???

We already established that any animal not having a proper quality of life regardless of the paint job should be euthanized.

Ten years ago I was told by more than a few "old time" breeders of reptiles that ANY morph was "unnatural" and should be culled because they were all unhealthy mutants. I'm certain there's still people who think it's true. I remember being told all albinos were blind and should be culled for humane reasons.

Seems bizarre now, doesn't it?

The vast majority of spider morphs do quite well. They hatch out the way they are and never know any different. They do not exhibit any distress compared to any normal. They are just clumsy. They have a little palsy.

I have both a spider female and now a new spider banana. The spider is very wobbly. She shows the wobble all the time. She eats pre-killed rodents with gusto and is just fine. The new snake doesn't show the wobble unless he is agitated, and then it's a slight clumsiness/palsy, not severe at all. I'm sure he will do fine too.

If you don't like spiders, don't own a spider. It's as simple as that. To try to tell everyone that spiders are in pain, or in distress, or defective and should be culled is rude at best, and just plain egotistical. Spiders have been around a long time and have been eating and pooping and breeding with all the other morphs.

So both of your contention is that the wobble is not a disorder? All I am saying is that there is a known issue that could possibly effect their well being. I will err on safe side and stay away from the spider morph.

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

So both of your contention is that the wobble is not a disorder? All I am saying is that there is a known issue that could possibly effect their well being. I will err on safe side and stay away from the spider morph.

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No one that affect the quality of life, Spider do as well if sometimes not better than other mutations, I have always found them more inquisitive.

As a breeder you have to make your own choices and draw your own lines, mine are at the possibility of severe deformation which is why I don't work with Super Black Pastel but work with other Black Pastel Combos.

Ultimately even when working with other animals things happen, kink, underbite etc and that when the breeder has to know what he has to do regardless of the paint job, I have euthanized animals in the past that wouldn't have survived or have a quality of life and known were Spiders.

Remember every mutation is a defect and there are purist out there (old school ones)

If you want a list of morphs to avoid because of potential genetic problems, the website linked earlier has a list. It helped me generate my own list of snakes to avoid working with:

Spider, Champagne, Sable, Hidden Gene Woma, Desert, Caramel, Spotnose

A few of them, like Spider, HGW, and Caramel Albino I had already known about, the rest were news to me. Mind that I don't really see the bug/small eyes or the duck bill as big enough problems to avoid those lines (Black Pastels and Lessers are some of my favorite lines), but the lethal genes and wobble are on my avoid list.

There does seem to be a problem in this topic, since the beginning, of one group and another group being unable to form and maintain their love/dislike of the spider gene without feeling personally attacked by the other group. Part of this is likely due to the fervor in which each group holds their views, and part of it is likely due to internet misunderstandings.

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

I honestly don't think the number of spiders that fail to thrive/need to be culled compares to the number for Caramel, or the number of pearls that fail to thrive, or the number of ball pythons with underbites/sharkmouth which fail to thrive. Honestly I think wobble is one of the less severe problems with ball python breeding.

Heck, consider how many normals are likely culled each year by less moral breeders who don't want to be stuck with snakes which are less desirable.

Personal preference may shy one away from certain genetic lines for associated downsides, but realistically it's not like we're talking about pure breed dogs which have horrific genetic defects that appear over their lives, leading to putting them down.

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Originally Posted by tat2d1

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

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I have had a couple local people tell me that too.
I wouldnt bet your check on it.
They were wrong as well.

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Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off.

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Please show me where someone said "you have to kill them so who care", you either miss the point or have comprehension issues. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

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Actually, I hadn't considered your opening statement fully. The breeders who are the kind of people in this for only the money are not going to end up saying "who cares?" Because they care. That snake just ate into their potential profit margin. Mind that I'm referring to the same overarching group* who is more likely to cull normals because the cost to house and feed them would be more than they wish to expend.

The professional breeders also include many people who care deeply about the animals they have, and only a slim few breeders, hobbyist or professional, are the kinds of people who cull snakes without it being better for the animal than the suffering they would endure in life.

*Note: the overarching group refers to a group of people who care about profit margins on the snakes, not all members of that group would cull normals, and not all members of that group are professionals.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

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The same conversation over and over. So I will ask the same question again. Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of a spider being culled because of wobble? I don't. If no one has, then people need to stop perpetuating the cull rumor.

On another note, there is supposedly a spider morph that does not wobble, unless I missed some update. It does not look very much like a spider though. Last I heard black head x spider does not wobble.

I've produced many spiders and spider combos over the years, easily 100+ and I've never seen one corkscrew nor have I had to cull one. Some seem to have no wobble at all even though they all eventually have the head tilt which I consider a mild wobble. I've only had one customer complain about the wobble but he owed me some money so we called it even. I think the wobble concern is overblown but if you don't want to own or breed them that's fine.

I actually don't know of any actual breeders who said they culled a spider due to severe wobble. I have known several breeders(including myself) who have culled defects that made the animal nonviable(kinking too severe to allow the animal to survive being most common and not a spider defect).

If the argument is "I don't think any spider should be bred because one MIGHT be hatched with a wobble so severe that they have to be culled"... then #1 you'd need to prove that spiders are being hatched with wobbles so severe they are culled and #2 you'd have to show it was at a higher occurrence than the possible defects requiring culling in all ball python hatchlings.

Normal to normal can produce defects. Incubator issues can produce defects. So to avoid the possibility of hatching a snake with a defect, don't breed.

If you just don't like spider wobble, then don't own spiders, as I said above. No one is forcing any keeper to own spider ball pythons. It's this nonsense that spiders are being murdered willynilly as soon as they hatch due to nonviable wobble issues that annoys me. Most everyone that breeds spiders knows they wobble. Some are unnoticable. I've seen spiders that "wobble" less than an excited normal.

As much as the cull argument is over used so to is the if you don't want a wobbly snake don't own spiders. If you don't know the facts how is this helpful? Does it not go with out saying? Also there is a distinct difference between producing a random defect and continuously breeding animals that pocess them. Say you were to hatch two animals one with a slight neurological issue, but otherwise exactly the same. The defective one eats, poops, and sleeps. Which of these two would you carry into your breeding project? Of course we do not have this choice with spiders, but I hope you catch my drift. Some people accept this defect as slight enough to pass on their nice pattern. I do not. I am also not convinced that it does not effect the animals except for in extremely mild cases. I will admit this based more on personal opinion than cold hard facts.

If people dont like spider why worry about it? I can say that there is no difference between coral glow and banana but one is brighter than the other. Same as ghost and orange ghost. More than most look alike. Not everyone is capable of handling a handicapable object being animal or human. Anything that has a "wobble", "corkscrew", odd behavior, etc. should be considered handicapped. If no love for the handicapped, you are not a human being. My own opinion.

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Ahhh fooey!! I have a beautiful spider morph, you know what.. It seems he only does this weird half cork screw thing when he is looking up or climbing up toward top of his enclosure, when its a day or 2 within feeding day.. That is the only time I have ever seen it.. He feeds like a champ,no issues.. Poops and sheds just like any normals I have had. You know what, I dont care. I love him for what he is and his weirdo cork screw moments are few. No wobble or anything any other time. Some day, I will breed him.

This conversation was amusing to read. I think there are alot of people who have made some good points..and some that I cannot get behind in anyway.

I think its important to educate yourself and make decisions you are comfortable with if you choose to work w any snake whose genetics have been shown to have a defect of some sort. Its a personal choice. A personal choice. Remember that. So to belittle others for their interest in a gene or be so obstinant to not see the other side of it or at least not be willing to accept we all have different opinions on this and move on is crazy. This is really a rediculous subject to see so much contention over. Dont we have bigger problems in our world/country to solve than argue over a stupid gene?

Take a deep breathe, walk away from the keyboard. And remember, theres more going on than the internet and this sillyness.

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Just wanted to add, breeding spiders or not is such a non-issue compared to the question of "Why do people keep breeding pugs?" as a single random example. That dog breed actually has a multitude of health issues that interfere with their quality of life, especially later in life, eye problems that if not treated continuously with eyedrops and medications can lead to blindness, etc. Especially when compared to many other dog breeds. So why don't we all go jump on that question, instead? (Joking)

My point is, spiders thrive just as well as other morphs besides being a bit wobbly, and there is no illness or decrease in quality of life to anyone's observation for so many decades. You can speculate for the rest of eternity whether the spiders pity themselves for their wobbly movement, you can speculate for eternity what "really" goes on in that tiny little ball python brain of theirs, but that's really it. Physically, the average wobble simply doesn't affect their ability to thrive just the same as other what we consider "normal" morphs.

And as mentioned, breeding morphs in itself isn't even "normal" either. So what now? Let's just go back to living in caves and being hunter-gatherers. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I've produced many spiders and spider combos over the years, easily 100+ and I've never seen one corkscrew nor have I had to cull one. Some seem to have no wobble at all even though they all eventually have the head tilt which I consider a mild wobble. I've only had one customer complain about the wobble but he owed me some money so we called it even. I think the wobble concern is overblown but if you don't want to own or breed them that's fine.

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I'm not sold on the head tilt, I bet 20% of my collection has shown a head tilt at some point. I do have a spider female which I have never seen any "wobble behavior" from. It's not like I am watching her 24/7 though and I got her as a sub adult so I don't know how she was as a baby. I'm not blind to the fact that she has the potential to wobble, put her in a stressful environment and I bet it will come out of her. I prefer to avoid testing that though, but if there was a candidate for no wobble spider, it's her. As for her offspring, they wobble like most spiders do.

As for the culling, when I wrote the link posted above, I reached out pretty far and only found 1 person who claimed to have to cull a spider due to the wobble. He was a hobby breeder with very little experience, so I'm not confident measures were taken to try to reduce the wobble or do anything to help it thrive. Besides that, most stories were a friend's brother's uncle who know somebody who had to cull spiders, who know the same people who have desert females that lay perfectly good eggs without issue. :)

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

This is really a rediculous subject to see so much contention over. Dont we have bigger problems in our world/country to solve than argue over a stupid gene?

Take a deep breathe, walk away from the keyboard. And remember, theres more going on than the internet and this sillyness.

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Debate is healthy imo and if you feel there is an ethical issue at hand, it is hardly silly. Without this debate how many people might think culling spider is normal? How many people learned about issues with other morphs? Even if no one's position on the issue changed, information was shared. Just because people have a different view doesn't make it ridiculous. I understand completely why someone might choose not to work with spiders. There's far more shallow reasons why I won't work with some morphs, I mean doesn't everyone think sable just ruins every combo aesthetically? Won't see me working with sable :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

They ALL DO to a degree if you know what to look for it can be mild and hardly noticeable but they ALL DO, anyone saying any different, is either not paying attention, not knowing what to look for, or using this as a sales tactic and lying.

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I've had her a few years now, if she has any wobble it's so mild that it isn't noticeable. She does prefer to eat her rats ass first, that's the only weird thing I've ever noticed about her. I know the wobble can show up at any time, so I know one day she could go all "screwy" on me.

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Originally Posted by tat2d1

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

Your statements would almost be like telling someone with a disability that they shouldn't have kids because they might be "defective". I have a daughter with Muscular Dystrophy, she's FAR from "defective"!

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I don't breed spiders for money, I keep and breed them because honestly I think they are unique and make amazing combos! I'ld bet if everyone on the forum posted photos of their companion animals (dogs/cats), there would be many breeds that are "defective"- but that doesn't mean they aren't well loved and cared for!

We all know that annoying wobble but it is what makes the Spider Gene. The wobble gives justice to the reason why it is called a morph. Morphs are definitely an alteration of genetics, be it phenotypical or genotypical. Let's turn the table around and say why the heck do people keep breeding albinos. Aren't they prone to harmful UV rays? Easier to spot making it vurnerable to live in the wild yet breeders produce them? It is because they are not in the wild anymore. Aside from that, it is morph, an addition to a collection. People will definitely love spiders just like the ol'albino gene. It has these amazing marks and varying results when combined to BEL Complexes, Stripe Complexes etc. I WILL ALWAYS WANT A SPIDER IN MY COLLECTION.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

The majority's reason being that the genetic defect associated with spiders doesn't interfere with their ability to eat and thrive as a normal snake, at least in a captive environment as pets. It just gives them a lopsided motion when they're moving about or they rest in funny positions.

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Funny you should mention that they rest in odd positions - we've only had Yzma for 2 months and this is her second shed. I peeked in to check on her and I freaked out thinking she was dead! Her head was completely sideways resting on her coils!! I reached in and gave her a tickle, and apparently she was just sleeping. It was like a person sleeping on their side on a pillow!!

She doesn't have enough much of a wobble, but I think it's adorable when she does it. I've never seen a corkscrew though....

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

The majority's reason being that the genetic defect associated with spiders doesn't interfere with their ability to eat and thrive as a normal snake, at least in a captive environment as pets. It just gives them a lopsided motion when they're moving about or they rest in funny positions.

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This ^^.

Spiders do amazing things to some morphs.

As red said, perhaps you consider it a defect, but it's just part of a snake that makes them special. They can still live a full and healthy life as a pet.

I think this is an interesting question. I have a spider (well a queenspin), and she is stunning. i took her in on a trade knowing she was tweaked, and trust me, she is tweaked. But, she still slams medium rats and still acts otherwise normal. Therefore the bigger picture is, is this condition, lowering the quality of life of that animal. If not, it may simply be seen as a "phenotypic" condition, and one that we choose to either like or dislike, just as we choose to like or dislike morphs. I was chatting to a friend about this very topic earlier in relation to breeding. I plan to pair my queenspin next season. The difference with me however is that I have absolutely no worries about euthanizing an animal that shows and extreme "spider" condition. If a friend wanted one as a pet, I may give that animal away, but I would not sell it. I may, in time, set up an experiment comparing age and sexed matched animals with and without the tweaking, to see how growth rate, feeding, and reproduction is effected. Might be a nice long term undergraduate research project in my lab. The other interesting thing is that it may relate to a condition comparable to humans, and therefore ball pythons with it may act as model organisms to study its effects and treatments. Think bigger picture.

Warren

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Originally Posted by Warren_Booth

The difference with me however is that I have absolutely no worries about euthanizing an animal that shows and extreme "spider" condition.

Warren

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What do you consider an "extreme spider condition"?


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Just to chime in. I had a Phantom Spider that was extremely "wobbly." He was about 2 years old and was able to eat (though he would only eat live and needed some time with the rodent before he would get it). He would basically do somersaults all the time and looked a lot like the severe wobble seen on youtube. What was strange is that the vet thought he had renal problems as well. He drank whatever water I would give him and would urinate constantly. I had to limit his water intake because of it. He ended up catching an RI and died while on antibiotics. I feel like he was unhealthy to begin with and I had gotten him from a breeder who I realized later was pretty shady. It was a lesson learned. My question is, if some of these gene combos produce neurological defects (like wobble), wouldn't there be the possibility of it producing other defects as well?

Personally, I avoid the spider gene and anything else associated with the wobble as there are plenty of other pretty morphs out there that don't appear to have the defect.

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Originally Posted by BPGator

What do you consider an "extreme spider condition"?

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An animal that is corkscrewing continually when moving/disturbed and having trouble eating.
Warren

There are no serious problems with the spider gene. If your referring to the wobble, that does not effect them eating or living a normal life. Even if the wobble was horrible and you breed the snake that does not mean the babies will have a bad wobble.

Warren, Ive seen spiders with horrible "corkscrewing" and still having no problems eating whatsoever.

Its entirely up to you (any individual) how you select your animals to breed. I simply choose a different route of selecting the best quality animals. If it comes to something with spider, I will simply not breed an animal with extreme corkscrewing. I do not consider the extreme corkscrewing and tweaked nature of some spiders an attractive phenotype, and therefore I will avoid breeding animals that are extreme. I want my breeding animals to represent my animals for sale, and therefore I select only the best animals, whether its a ball python or a boa. Breeding is a hobby, and therefore I can choose to be very selective.

Warren

Something to consider when breeding spider anything.

A spider w little wobble can still create a baby w major issues..just as, one w major issues, can throw babies w little issues such a minor wobble.

So, its not possible to breed spider gene and know without a doubt if some or all of that clutch is or isnt affected w the neuro issues seen in spider gene snakes, muchless any ability to determine the severity of their issues until later.

Furthermore, a snake that exhibits no issues, can develop them as it matures, the extremity is only left to be determined later. A snake showing issues can also "outgrow" its issues.

The spider gene has been around awhile.. These are the things we know about it to date. Always has been like this. You cannot breed the neuro issues out.

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