How many snakes in a cage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

just another opinion ...
People say alot of things...some are right and some are wrong....some are just not clear.

---

I can not argue with that. I have to deal with people everyday that have no idea what they are talking about but think that they are alway right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

how experienced is experienced???? id have to think hard about that one.

---

Good question, but it should not require 'hard' thought. It does not take intense analysis to figure out when someone knows what they are talking about and when someone is just blowing smoke. I have recently started a post to try to get people to explain just how experienced they are. Everyone please feel free to post info about yourself there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

not sure of which school you went to but your lucky because the one i went to they just hand you the book and say there you go.

---

Proud Graduate of Pearl River High School and Current Student at Louisiana Tech University. Yes, I am very lucky with my school experiences and have done very well because of the help and advice of teachers. I would not be working on my masters degree in civil engineering if everyone would have just handed me a book and said 'there you go'. The advice of other people has aided me in getting where I am in life, I hope that everyone else can say the same someday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

choose is the operative word. just because one says they are "keepers" doesnt mean that i believe they are "keepers". just a different point of veiw from my direction. bu this is the last i post post for my own minds sake......

---

True. There are some people out there that claim to be ''keepers'' and don't have the experience to be making certain statements. I mentioned Adam and Kara which are two of the best true "keepers'' out there in my opinion. I have done my research on them both and in my opinion they both have experience levels that are far beyond the majority of people that I talk to. I can not speak for all the other ''keepers out there'', so It always pays off to do some research on who you are talking to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

and just for the record, just because one says they have no opinion on the subject it is not advocating ... it is still just an opinion on the subject.

---

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I was just stating mine. Thanks for ripping apart my post :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egyptian_Sphynx

how experienced is experienced???? id have to think hard about that one.

---

Here's a great link to a write up about "experience" by Dave and Tracy Barker .... I'm quite sure that they know what they are talking about!

http://www.vpi.com/9VPITipsAndTechs/...Experience.htm

IMO, someone like Kara from NERD that has personally fed and cared for more snakes in the last 12 months than most people will see in their lifetime has a little bit more "experience" than someone that got a pet ball python from a pet store a year or two ago. Books are a valuable tool for certain, but I don't care how many books you have to reference, there is no learning tool in the world like hands on experience.

Some people get publishing deals to write about snakes that they have never kept, and others keep so many snakes that they don't have time to write books.

Just food for thought.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

In the ball python section the author doesn't specifically state that ball pythons can be kept together

---

Exactly. Because they shouldn't. Although he does give a reminder for feeding them responsibly for those that errantly choose to do otherwise.

Philippe de Vosjoli is not a ball python specialist. He is an author that writes about anything from plants, to hermit crabs, snakes, frogs, torts, chams, general reptile Q & A, and on. Amazon.com has over 52 titles credited to his name and only 3 of those are specifically about ball pythons. None of them advocate housing balls together.

I've met Philippe and he is indeed a very smart man, but he'd be the first to tell you that he has never kept ball pythons in any great numbers and does not have even close to the amount of experience that professional ball python breeders like Kara@NERD, Ralph Davis, and Tracy Barker have (all of whom advocate housing ball pythons individually).

In your original post you said you've read a "few different" books ....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

i have read in a few different books that although these are solitary animals you can house two ball pythons together.

---

What are the titles and authors of the others? You've only cited one so far. If there is a title that specifically says that "you can house two ball pythons together"? I'd really appreciate the title and author so that I can contact them and figure out why in the world they would publish something like that?

-adam

This thread has inspired me to house two ball pythons together so that i may gain first hand experience on this issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

This thread has inspired me to house two ball pythons together so that i may gain first hand experience on this issue.

---

Well there ya go!! Walk the walk! ;)

How many ball pythons do you currently own?

-adam

I'm very glad there are some ppl out there who know what there talkin about. It pisses me off how ppl decided to house snakes together and expect them to not fight or stress out. The bp's need to feel secure and like there in danger. I advise anyone who is planning on putting 2 snakes together not to. If they do plan on having stressed out bp's who won't eat and won't be healthy also if one has a URI or some other sickness both have it now.

Mark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

This thread has inspired me to house two ball pythons together so that i may gain first hand experience on this issue.

---

Go for it. Some people can only learn when they experience things themselves. Just be prepared for the possible problems that may be associated with housing two ball pythons together for the safety of the animals. Also, why not keep some good documented notes on your observations so that the next time this gets brought up (and it WILL be brought up again) you will have documented personal experience to support your opinion: weither it be for or against housings two bps together.

I currently own three female normal ball pythons all housed in their own enclosure. My opinion was that a single ball python should be housed in a single enclosure.
Now i just want to do some research on my own and gather my own reasons why. I will purchase a male and female or two females from the up coming reptile show in june and house them together. I'll document my observations and let you guys know what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

I currently own three female normal ball pythons all housed in their own enclosure. My opinion was that a single ball python should be housed in a single enclosure.
Now i just want to do some research on my own and gather my own reasons why. I will purchase a male and female or two females from the up coming reptile show in june and house them together. I'll document my observations and let you guys know what happens.

---

Good luck with that!

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

I currently own three female normal ball pythons all housed in their own enclosure.

---

You might want to update you signature :)

good idea

Quote:

---

If they do plan on having stressed out bp's who won't eat and won't be healthy also if one has a URI or some other sickness both have it now.

---

We can debate their sociological and psychological reactions until we are blue in the face but regardless of how many hides you have etc multiple snakes in a single cage will universally expose them ALL to whatever illness/parasites only one of them may have and make diagnosing and treating them difficult. How do you tell then which has been having the runs etc.

That in and of itself is enough reason to keep 'em seperated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smulkin

We can debate their sociological and psychological reactions until we are blue in the face

---

Actually, this is not as much of a debatable subject in the scientific community. The effects of stress on animals that live in dominant/subordinate hierarchies has been studied by biologists for many years and the results are well documented.

It's been well over 100 years since Darwin described his "survival of the fittest" theory and that vast majority of the worlds biologist still are applying it's principals every day.

Weaker animals are denied access to food, water, and optimal conditions (temps, hides, perches, caves, etc) by stronger animals allowing the stronger animals to become healthier and more attractive to potential mates and the weaker animals to become sick and less attractive to potential mates. This ensures that the animals with the stronger genes will be bred and pass those genetics on to their offspring to help the species have the best chance of survival.

No amount of hides, heat, or whatever you want to do will thwart the animals basic instincts for survival of their species.

-adam

okie dokie . . then strike that - change to "we can discuss . . ."


Rest of statement/rationale stands . .

. . and remains my prime reasoning for not considering housing multiples together an option

we have two in one cage seems to be working fine. we have two hide spots that were theirs before we got them.. but then again what do I know I've only had them for a day..

Read through that thread - I know it's a long haul :P, but it brings up some very valid points in favor of single-housing

And check the caresheet also - when getting new additions it's generally held a good idea to give them a quiet week to settle into their new surroundings to avoid possibly stressing them out.

I know I wouldnt want to shear a small house with someone so when i get my new snake i will get a whole new set up for it. I will not make my pet do something that i wouldnt want to do myself.

Whatever you do, do not keep kinksnakes/milksnakes together except for during the breeding season. They are known for eating other snakes and will eat their own kind if they are hungry.

Another fear I would have, ragarding the housing 2 BPs together, is biting each other. I have one aggressive little male who will strike out at anything that moves near him. I do not doubt that he would bite a cagemate in defense.

First, I want to say that I am neither a ball python expert, or even a reptile expert. My experience is in general biology, but most of the reasons mentioned here are covered by the nature of animals in general.

First, I've noticed people saying that the snakes "seem fine" when caged together. The problem with this theory, is that it is very difficult to determine the stress level of ANY animal, and pythons (espeically balls) are more difficult then usual. This is primarily due to how we determine the stress of animals.

The easiest method to determine stress is in eating and drinking habbits. For obvious reasons, ball pythons make this method nearly impossible, since they can be extremely finicky eaters, and retain most of their fluid from their pray.

The "two of everything" method doesn't work either. In fact, it will more than likely breed dominance in the snakes just as well as one of everything would. With the hide boxes, one is always going to be ideal (humidity and temperature) and one isn't. The more dominate snake will always get the better hide box. Being ectothermic, snakes can sense the smallest change in their enviornment, so even a 1% humidity change, or a 1 degree change temperature is going to alter the dynamics of hide boxes and humidity chambers.

Again, I'm no snake expert, but in ANY case with animals, it is best to give them the most natural enviornment to live in that's possible. Snakes being solitary, it's best to leave them that way.

I'm new here but I thought I should join in on this for just a few comments. I'm no expert by any means, but there's a few things I'd like to point out. It seems that we're all forgetting that our snakes are not "wild". They are not kept in a wild environment... most have never known what being "wild" means. Yes, we should still respect them as wild animals because they can be unpredictable as such (but, honestly, so can humans).


What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

My point is, in the wild BPs may have to live a solitary life. Food is found only through their own means, and prime basking spots have to be sought out. Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

I'm no scientist. I don't know. Personally, I keep my balls in separate tanks. But I suppose it's possible to keep them together... because they aren't "wild" and they have us to take care of them.

Just my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

---

The problem is, pythons are NOT domesticated animals. What that means, is they still have the natural instincts of a hunter in the wild. Whether there food is provided regularly or not, they will instinctively fight for it. The same goes for living. They will instinctively fight (even if the "fighting" is to subtle for humans to notice) for the ideal spot in their enviornment.

Quote:

---

Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

---

The problem is, they don't understand the concept of regularity or plentiful food. A dog or a cat does... they are completely domesticated animals. They rely on human beings for nearly everything, and wouldn't last on their own (in most cases). Whereas, I could put my snakes outside, right now, and their natural hunters instinct would go into effect immediately.

The biggest thing to understand, is that snakes, ALL snakes are in fact wild animals. They are still wild animals when we own them, they are simply wild animals in cages. Survival is their primary instinct, and they will do anything to survive, and at the extreme, even eat each other if they feel it's neccesary.

I'd like to point out, it's not impossible by any means, to cage snakes together. Many people do just that. However, from what we know, it does cause undue stress on the animals and that's not neccesary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I'm new here but I thought I should join in on this for just a few comments. I'm no expert by any means, but there's a few things I'd like to point out. It seems that we're all forgetting that our snakes are not "wild". They are not kept in a wild environment... most have never known what being "wild" means. Yes, we should still respect them as wild animals because they can be unpredictable as such (but, honestly, so can humans).


What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

My point is, in the wild BPs may have to live a solitary life. Food is found only through their own means, and prime basking spots have to be sought out. Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

I'm no scientist. I don't know. Personally, I keep my balls in separate tanks. But I suppose it's possible to keep them together... because they aren't "wild" and they have us to take care of them.

Just my opinion.

---

You're right, captivity isn't "the wild" ... but, ball pythons are not domesticated animals by any means ... many of them have never known "the wild" but they are ALL programmed with tens of thousands of years of instinct that is based on living in a wild habitat. It took mankind many lifetimes to break dogs of their natural "wild" instincts so that they could be trained and molded as hunters, workers, and companions .... ball pythons have only been kept in captivity in any signifigant numbers for less than 20 years.

Thousands of years of evolved instinctual dominant animal behavior isn't something that can be undone by taking a snake and placing it a tank with a heat pad and regular meals.

:D:D

-adam

I think my cat would last longer on the streets of Ohio that my snakes would. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I think my cat would last longer on the streets of Ohio that my snakes would. :)

---

Huh?

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhall1468

The problem is, they don't understand the concept of regularity or plentiful food. A dog or a cat does... they are completely domesticated animals. They rely on human beings for nearly everything, and wouldn't last on their own (in most cases). Whereas, I could put my snakes outside, right now, and their natural hunters instinct would go into effect immediately.

---

I think he was refering to that Adam.

Non of us here will ever see a Domesticated snake in our life time. whiles Bps have been kept in private collections for around 20 years, thats a very small percentage of people who go back that far most only go back the last 10 years or so. It takes many generations to domesticate any type of animal and while BPs are being bread every year their are still many many more that are being imported and sold as "CBB" I keep 6 BPs 4 are true CBB (saw the eggs myself) and 2 where imported babies. My true CBBs go back 2 generations in captivity, now once I bread them to my imported Bps the cycle would have to start all over again since all the "wild" instincts would be very much intact in the imported BP. Sooner or later the importing of BPs will come to a stop but for now we will continue to add fresh blood to the lines and we will never be taking steps forward to domestic breading. I would say better than half the people on the forum alone have imported Bps that were sold to them as CBBs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Python-77

My true CBBs go back 2 generations in captivity, now once I bread them to my imported Bps the cycle would have to start all over again since all the "wild" instincts would be very much intact in the imported BP.

---

The "wild" instincts are very much intact in your CB ball pythons, they are just conditioned to the routine of captivity. 2 generations CB is insignificant in the grand scheme of domestication.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Python-77

Sooner or later the importing of BPs will come to a stop

---

Actually, the way things are currently going, that's not likely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Python-77

I would say better than half the people on the forum alone have imported Bps that were sold to them as CBBs.

---

By all estimates with importation numbers being what they are and captive breeding being very limited comparably, it's more like 9 out of 10 that are actually CH imports or WC adults/sub-adults.

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The "wild" instincts are very much intact in your CB ball pythons, they are just conditioned to the routine of captivity. 2 generations CB is insignificant in the grand scheme of domestication.

---

Oh understand that I was just making a reference that any progress made was just set right back to the start.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually, the way things are currently going, that's not likely.

---

Well sooner or later CITIES will step in but the problem is that Bps are in more than one country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

By all estimates with importation numbers being what they are and captive breeding being very limited comparably, it's more like 9 out of 10 that are actually CH imports or WC adults/sub-adults.
-adam

---

Very true the store I deal with imports about 200+ a year, but he sells them as CH and explains to people what that means. He also provides awsome care to the prior to selling them they all eat atleast 2 meals Dead so some have eaten upto 6 times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Python-77

Well sooner or later CITIES will step in but the problem is that Bps are in more than one country.

---

P. regius is already a CITES II regulated species. According to the latest CITES population surveys of Western Africa, ball python numbers are thriving. There has actually been talk of increasing exportation numbers because of the huge population increases in balls in West Africa over the last several years.

I don't understand what being from more than one country has to do with anything?

-adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

P. regius is already a CITES II regulated species. According to the latest CITES population surveys of Western Africa, ball python numbers are thriving. There has actually been talk of increasing exportation numbers because of the huge population increases in balls in West Africa over the last several years.

I don't understand what being from more than one country has to do with anything?

-adam

---

Cool I did not know that, I had read a article about 2 year back that talked about stopping the exporting due to the dwindleing population. Good to here they are thriving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Python-77

Cool I did not know that, I had read a article about 2 year back that talked about stopping the exporting due to the dwindleing population. Good to here they are thriving.

---

Most likely, that article was very old. In the late 90's, the CITES under pressure from the EU, conducted the most extensive survey to date of wild ball python populations. The EU had believed that the wild populations of ball pythons were in jeopardy due to the large numbers of annual exports ... the results of the CITES survey were so promising that CITES actually increased the export quotas!

-adam

Cool, like I said its very reassuring to hear they are doing well in the wild. MY new reduced patern male is a CH import he looks awsome and I cant wait to see if its genetic or not either way he still rocks. Pics of him are up in the pictures forum, let me know what you think of him adam.

This has been an extremely interesting thread to read for a newcomer such as myself so thanks to you all for your participation in it.

My only comment from the point of view of someone that is so recently involved in the keeping of ball pythons is this....I would be ten kinds of a fool to not take full advantage of the knowledge and advice of people who keep large numbers of ball pythons over a good number of years. No matter how long we keep balls as pets my family would never gain that kind of cumulative knowlege base but thanks to the internet we have access to it to the benefit of my family but more importantly the benefit of the snakes.

Ours will always remain in single enclosures as we believe that is the best way to house them successfully. We are truely honored to have these wonderful snakes in our home and feel that we have an obligation to provide them with the best possible life, albeit a captive one.

Again, I thank all of you for this discussion. Like any good debate it can get heated but the knowledge I'm gaining reading along is invaluable.


~~Joanna~~

I second that emotion!
I kept 2 males in the same tank for a few weeks (after I rescued them.) out of necessity. It was a major, major pain in the butt during feeding-time; had to put one in a seperate enc. while the other ate, etc. Not to mention, the stress they had to go through. I got one of them into a seperate Rubbermaid, quick.
Even if we choose to ignore what's best for the animals (single-occupant cages) can't we at least put them in single cages for our owl laziness? lol
Seriously, though, it is much safer and more convenient.

Wow, I can't believe I read all of this thread. Its amazing that there could be 85 posts about a point that is fact, not speculation. Ball Pythons are solitary creatures and need to be kept alone. Adam, great points throughout. There is no convincing the unconvincable (if thats a word).

there should be no darn poll here it is only right to keep one snake per enclosure. some poeple should only have one snake per house or no snakes at all and i say if you house more than one snake in a single enclosure and it is not breeding season you shouldnt have snakes only my opinion.no one should take this negativly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doobysnack

there should be no darn poll here it is only right to keep one snake per enclosure. some poeple should only have one snake per house or no snakes at all and i say if you house more than one snake in a single enclosure and it is not breeding season you shouldnt have snakes only my opinion.no one should take this negativly.

---

Well said!

very very very untrue. in my opinion if you keep more than one snake in an enclosure you gotta think one has to have dominence and i own 2 red tails and i have a hogg on the way i say poeple who house more than one snake in an enclosure are either 1. lazy 2.cheap and wont go buy another cage but will purchase another snake.3 dont know what they are doing.or 4. have not been told the right ways and the wrong ways. this is in no way trying to disrespect you i am just stating my expirence and my beliefs and opinions.

Thanks,
WENDELL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chong_python

I keep a male and female adult boas in same encloser
As long as you know what your doing in terms of feeding and quarentine.
Boas can be kept together in the same encloser

Having said that, i wouldnt house a Bp wit a Boa, and im not sure about other species of snake, but as for BCI, they are fine to house male and female all year.

Chris

---

I do know BPs seem to be dominating snakes, but I also believe Pythons in general are completely different world than other snakes in general. What goes for one species isn't always the same as the next.

I once saw three JCPs together and they "seemed fine" but after awhile one kept getting bigger and the others were not. So, the guy started feeding them seperate. This is when he noticed that, what Adam was saying about submissive, the big was overpowering the other two. After they ate and were put back in together the smaller ones would soon regurg and act scared and skittish. The guy soon smartened up and seperated them completely.

I also know another guy who has two RTBs and has had them for as long as I've known him (four years or more) and he told me that he once seperated them and then was not able to take them out anymore, but as soon as he put them back together after a few months they were fine again and has never had a problem since. They were both females.

I am not one too really talk though, since I house two Rosy Boas together, but have always fed them seperate. I never really thought twice about it til now. I was thinking of putting all three of my rosy boas into the same cage in the future, maybe a year or two from now when they are all the same size. I am still not sure though. It has nothing to with being lazy or cheap, they just seem to be happier together, calmer if you will.

what i wrote was not what other poeple have done it is what should be done we are trying to create the best habitat for our herps and ok you house two snakes together and one suddenly becomes deathly ill there is a 99.999% that the other snake will become deathly ill also. i am not trying to p.o. any body i am just stating that we should give each snake its own habitat unless of course they are breeding and i personally know some one with 2 ball pythons that are the same age one female and the other also female and they fight all the time i have tried telling him that is wrong he just laughs i guess some poeple just dont understand the true meaning of why we keep these snakes. witch is to provide them with the best housing possible(witch poeple who house two snakes together are not doing)we try to give snakes the best care the best food.i have said all i needed to say u can aggree or disagree!

Also if you have 2 snakes per cage. Mites only have to go to one cage to get your snakes rather than too. Well you get what I mean.

well guys i bought my new 2 baby females on sept 11 at the local reptile show and ill be housing them together. for now(at least)
i dont believe in keeping them together but i just wanna see for myself
ill let you know how it goes

What do you see as the "upside" to doing that though?


Just curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

well guys i bought my new 2 baby females on sept 11 at the local reptile show and ill be housing them together. for now(at least)
i dont believe in keeping them together but i just wanna see for myself
ill let you know how it goes

---

How exciting for you. Maybe after that you can try to bring a human back to life or pick up a flux capacitor and see if your DeLorean will travel "Back to the Future!"

I await your results with breathless anticipation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

ill let you know how it goes

---

I prefer that you don't. BP's aren't lab mice. Well there yours to take care of so you can ignore this if you want ,but still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BALLPYTHON

well guys i bought my new 2 baby females on sept 11 at the local reptile show and ill be housing them together. for now(at least)
i dont believe in keeping them together but i just wanna see for myself
ill let you know how it goes

---

Don't the FBI profilers consider experimenting with small animals a pre-cursor for something? hmmm ... I don't know .... Bundy junior? :P

-adam

erm, you don't believe in it but you are doing it anyhow? what exactly is it that you want to see for yourself? sounds kind of like a lame excuse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Don't the FBI profilers consider experimenting with small animals a pre-cursor for something? hmmm ... I don't know .... Bundy junior? :P

-adam

---

"He was always such a quiet boy...We can't for the life of us understand why he would do something like this!" -- Elderly neighbors

well none of you guys keep 2 bps in the same enclosure so why should i listen to people who have absolutley no experience on this topic??