One and a half year old snake, 50 grams?

Wow guys! After one quick google search, those are exactly what they are..spurs. My vet said "Oh those are his hemipenes" as if it was casual. I knew something was wrong, maybe he had the wrong word lol. Well I am definitely relieved.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...116_150115.jpg

Glad he ate for you. :)

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Wow guys! After one quick google search, those are exactly what they are..spurs. My vet said "Oh those are his hemipenes" as if it was casual. I knew something was wrong, maybe he had the wrong word lol. Well I am definitely relieved.

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If those are just his spurs, and there is no parasite problem or other internal health issue, the problems are most likely environment and feeding. There's a chance of a genetic or other issue, but I would guess it's most likely to the undersized food he gets.

Both are relatively easy to fix. Get your temps dialed in. This is pretty easy. Once you have your tank setup properly with temps measured and controlled correctly, you're well on your way.

Based on your shed descriptions, your humidity is off regardless of what your gauge is telling you. I would put a humid hide in there for him. They're easy to make and give him a place with boosted humidity for when he needs it.

As for feeding, once you start feeding him properly sized food on a regular basis, he'll grow. Mouse fuzzies are way too small for any BP. I see you moved him up to hoppers which is great. He will probably only be on hoppers for three or four weeks at most before you have to move him up again.

You might want to consider tracking his weight and his food weight for a while so you can monitor the growth. It's not really necessary in most cases to track weight and food weekly, but in your case it'll provide two benefits:

First, you'll have something concrete to refer to when you're trying to determine if he's making progress or not.

Second, since you're having trouble gauging proper food size by eyeballing it (no offense, but mouse fuzzies are not correct), adjusting food by weight will make sure you get it right until he gets bigger. If your snake weighs X you feed him something between Y and Z. You may think the food looks too big or too small, but if it's the in correct weight range while he's a hatchling, he can eat it. Over time, with weights backing you up, you'll start to get a better feel for eyeballing food.

Good luck with him. It sounds like he got off to a slow start unintentionally, but you're doing what you can to fix the problems and get him back on track, so that's always good.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Could you also try to get a picture of his "prolapsed hemipenes"? Because I am wondering if what you(and the vet) are seeing are the "spurs" which are supposed to be out

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This is why there are so many great members here.
Someone always catches something that got overlooked.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

My vet said "Oh those are his hemipenes" as if it was casual.

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Right here.... Find a new vet. Preferably one that knows reptiles or at anatomy and wont blow smoke up your butt.
I would bet most of us overlooked that because we took your word that you took your vets word.
That is not your fault as it was his/her job to inform you about your animal and evidently is not qualified.

There are many people in this community that are here to help.

These can help you if you haven't seen them already:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pskrswg3hm.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ps6c837bf2.jpg

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Second, since you're having trouble gauging proper food size by eyeballing it (no offense, but mouse fuzzies are not correct), adjusting food by weight will make sure you get it right until he gets bigger. If your snake weighs X you feed him something between Y and Z. You may think the food looks too big or too small, but if it's the in correct weight range while he's a hatchling, he can eat it. Over time, with weights backing you up, you'll start to get a better feel for eyeballing food.

Good luck with him. It sounds like he got off to a slow start unintentionally, but you're doing what you can to fix the problems and get him back on track, so that's always good.

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Is there a rule of thumb for food size? Like just bigger than his body width or what? Also thank you so much for your help, pip is on his way to a full recovery :)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Right here.... Find a new vet. Preferably one that knows reptiles or at anatomy and wont blow smoke up your butt.
I would bet most of us overlooked that because we took your word that you took your vets word.
That is not your fault as it was his/her job to inform you about your animal and evidently is not qualified.

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Yeah, the closest specialty reptile vet is 2 and a half hours away so I went with my local animal hospital. They told me he was good with snakes! Oh well I learned my lesson. I'm sure he will be back on track very shortly and maybe he can forgive me for my ignorance haha.

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Is there a rule of thumb for food size? Like just bigger than his body width or what? Also thank you so much for your help, pip is on his way to a full recovery :)

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I believe it was "slightly wider than the widest point of your snake's body."

0.1 Super pastel

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Originally Posted by Kimchi~

I believe it was "slightly wider than the widest point of your snake's body."

0.1 Super pastel

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Oh that'd make sense then. Thanks!

Just a little tidbit I learned from another snake keeper... apparently its best to switch to rats if there is a weight gain issue, since they have a better fat content. So like the chart that PitontheProwl posted says, the mouse hopper you fed your little guy is about the same size as a rat fuzzy. My first bp didn't really start gaining weight until I switched him from mice to rats. Good luck!!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Is there a rule of thumb for food size? Like just bigger than his body width or what? Also thank you so much for your help, pip is on his way to a full recovery :)

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Around the width of his body is fine. Don't look at the neck, go by the widest part of his body.

If you want to weigh, general rule of thumb for hatchlings is 10% to 15% of their body weight, but you can go higher than that when they are younger.

Widest part of the body is the best measurement for prey size. The neck is super stretchy and the jaws will open way further than you'd think.

I suspected since the vet wasn't concerned, it was just the spurs. Since some people think they're part of the sexual organs(because that's what they're used for apparently, to poke at the partner snake), the vet probably just used the wrong term. Even a experienced vet can have a "brain fart" and use the wrong term.

Ball pythons are super tough and can rebound from things easily. Once he is eating the right size prey on a regular schedule, he will probably grow very nicely.

Just as a caution though, sometimes animals that have not been fed properly will die later on, due to organ damage. There's not really anything to do to prevent that risk at this point and it's not really your fault since you had people telling you that all was well. Just don't try to push too much food to grow him fast to "make up for" the slow start. Let him grow slowly on a regular schedule.

Everyone was new once. Don't sweat it.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you. I got a beautiful yellowbelly male/female (not sure) from Petsmart before I knew any better. When I got her, she was tiny! I didn't know it at the time but they were really underfeeding her. I kept her on their same schedule and she wasn't growing. She was 130-140g (can't quite remember) when I got her. She didn't put on any weight after months even though she ate beautifully and didn't skip any meals. I had her in a tub setup and my temps were okay but still, she didn't grow! I was super worried but I got help from the awesome people here and switched her food. She was pounding rat pups so easily and was looking for more food right after she ate. She had her first weaned rat tonight and is almost 350g now. It's totally possible to get them back on the right track! Don't give up :)

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Widest part of the body is the best measurement for prey size. The neck is super stretchy and the jaws will open way further than you'd think.

I suspected since the vet wasn't concerned, it was just the spurs. Since some people think they're part of the sexual organs(because that's what they're used for apparently, to poke at the partner snake), the vet probably just used the wrong term. Even a experienced vet can have a "brain fart" and use the wrong term.

Ball pythons are super tough and can rebound from things easily. Once he is eating the right size prey on a regular schedule, he will probably grow very nicely.

Just as a caution though, sometimes animals that have not been fed properly will die later on, due to organ damage. There's not really anything to do to prevent that risk at this point and it's not really your fault since you had people telling you that all was well. Just don't try to push too much food to grow him fast to "make up for" the slow start. Let him grow slowly on a regular schedule.

Everyone was new once. Don't sweat it.

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Would you suggest finishing off the hoppers I bought him or just go and get some rat pups for the next time? I see there is some debate on whether or not rats or mice should be used here. I bought 3 bags of 3 count hoppers, it'd be fine with going out and getting rat fuzzies as well.

Go ahead and use the hoppers. His digestive system will do easier with the smaller meals for now and by the time you've used those up, he will readily take the larger ones.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Go ahead and use the hoppers. His digestive system will do easier with the smaller meals for now and by the time you've used those up, he will readily take the larger ones.

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Ok sounds good. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Pippers

Ok sounds good! Is the next size up rat fuzzies or the pups? Based on the chart my judgement would be rat fuzzies.

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generally there is some overlap between mice hopper/small adult and rat fuzzy. of course, it all depends on where you're buying. refer to PitOnTheProwl's response above with size chart. with the snake at 50 grams rat fuzzies may be a bit large. finish up the hoppers and by then the snake will likely have gained the weight to move to rat fuzzies or a larger mouse. rat pups definitely too large at his point.

I don't have a scale so I couldn't weigh my Pandora, but PetSmart was only feeding her one medium mouse per week, every week, for over a year. While she looked healthy and alert when I brought her home, she was definitely way too small for a BP that was over a year old. It took her awhile to acclimate. I'd feed her a mouse when she'd show interest, and a second one if I could get her to take it. Then when she got to eating regularly, the mice got bigger. Three weeks ago I got her to accept a small rat, and then again last week, and she finally blessed me with a turd that didn't look like it came out of a pigeon. She just ate her third small rat in as many weeks about half an hour ago, and I will try one more of that size next week before getting her up to medium rats.

I'm not really set up to measure length & weight on my snakes but I can see she's finally getting some girth to her. And tonight she gave me that "gimme another piece of food" behavior 15 minutes after swallowing the small rat (I won't give her multiple rats... I'll just start working her up to bigger rats).

I think these big box stores intentionally underfeed their pythons... just enough to keep them looking healthy, not enough to let them grow naturally or poop like they should.

What state do you live in?

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Originally Posted by Pandorica

I don't have a scale so I couldn't weigh my Pandora, but PetSmart was only feeding her one medium mouse per week, every week, for over a year. While she looked healthy and alert when I brought her home, she was definitely way too small for a BP that was over a year old. It took her awhile to acclimate. I'd feed her a mouse when she'd show interest, and a second one if I could get her to take it. Then when she got to eating regularly, the mice got bigger. Three weeks ago I got her to accept a small rat, and then again last week, and she finally blessed me with a turd that didn't look like it came out of a pigeon. She just ate her third small rat in as many weeks about half an hour ago, and I will try one more of that size next week before getting her up to medium rats.

I'm not really set up to measure length & weight on my snakes but I can see she's finally getting some girth to her. And tonight she gave me that "gimme another piece of food" behavior 15 minutes after swallowing the small rat (I won't give her multiple rats... I'll just start working her up to bigger rats).

I think these big box stores intentionally underfeed their pythons... just enough to keep them looking healthy, not enough to let them grow naturally or poop like they should.

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It's funny you say that, the first time Pip pooped something other than a white mess was about a week ago. It was actually a normal, brown poop. I'm sure we were equally happy with him lol.

I live in Connecticut.

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Originally Posted by Pandorica

I don't have a scale so I couldn't weigh my Pandora, but PetSmart was only feeding her one medium mouse per week, every week, for over a year. While she looked healthy and alert when I brought her home, she was definitely way too small for a BP that was over a year old. It took her awhile to acclimate. I'd feed her a mouse when she'd show interest, and a second one if I could get her to take it. Then when she got to eating regularly, the mice got bigger. Three weeks ago I got her to accept a small rat, and then again last week, and she finally blessed me with a turd that didn't look like it came out of a pigeon. She just ate her third small rat in as many weeks about half an hour ago, and I will try one more of that size next week before getting her up to medium rats.

I'm not really set up to measure length & weight on my snakes but I can see she's finally getting some girth to her. And tonight she gave me that "gimme another piece of food" behavior 15 minutes after swallowing the small rat (I won't give her multiple rats... I'll just start working her up to bigger rats).

I think these big box stores intentionally underfeed their pythons... just enough to keep them looking healthy, not enough to let them grow naturally or poop like they should.

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It's funny you say that, the first time Pip pooped something other than a white mess was about a week ago. It was actually a normal, brown poop. I'm sure we were equally surprised lol.

But yes I also agree that petstores have a master plan, however I feel like that would hurt their chances of selling because as soon as someone walks into the store and sees these tiny ball pythons they're going to wonder. I'm sure they encounter plenty of ingorant people though. (like me)

Get some baby rats for her, then just keep feeding her those until like 100 g then try a small sized mouse. WOuld u b willing to give her up

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Originally Posted by New2Dis

WOuld u b willing to give her up

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No, but thank you.

Sounds like the brown poop is a good thing... I know it's only been about a week since you first posted on this thread, but have you noticed any changes in the snake at all? have you been able to weigh him to see if there are any changes yet?

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

Sounds like the brown poop is a good thing... I know it's only been about a week since you first posted on this thread, but have you noticed any changes in the snake at all? have you been able to weigh him to see if there are any changes yet?

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He spends alot more time under his hide (on the heating pad) since I was able to stabilize it at around 90 degrees. Other than that, not much change yet. I'm going to be weighing him every feeding. Thanks for asking!

feed him more size mice or rats:rage::)

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Originally Posted by Pippers

It's funny you say that, the first time Pip pooped something other than a white mess was about a week ago. It was actually a normal, brown poop. I'm sure we were equally surprised lol.

But yes I also agree that petstores have a master plan, however I feel like that would hurt their chances of selling because as soon as someone walks into the store and sees these tiny ball pythons they're going to wonder. I'm sure they encounter plenty of ingorant people though. (like me)

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Brown poop is good. It means he ate something of substance and there was enough of it for there to be waste.

White poop is usually just urates. If your snake is never defecating real poop (the brown stuff) it means he's not eating enough (or he's sick, but I think your vet ruled out parasites, etc).

You keep feeding him hoppers regularly, he'll be ready to move up to adult mice in a few weeks.

I have the Acurite Digital Thermometer, with the probe. On the device the "outdoor temperature" reads higher than the indoor, I assume this is the probes temp? Just clarifying, I'm in the process of regulating pips new tank. So far it looks like this:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...120_190901.jpg

The thermostat connected to the UTH peaks out at 80 and the pad doesn't even feel hot, I don't think the thermostat is powering the mat. Working on fixing this atm.

Yes, outdoor is the probe that you would want on the hot spot.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Yes, outdoor is the probe that you would want on the hot spot.

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Done and done. Disregard my last post regarding the mat, had to hold the "Set" button.

Sounds (and looks) like Pip's new home is coming along nicely. :)

Good to see this seeming to go the right way. I'm anxious to see how much Pip grows now that he's eating more appropriate sized prey. Hopefully that was the only reason he is so small and he will grow for you.

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Originally Posted by LittleTreeGuy

Sounds (and looks) like Pip's new home is coming along nicely. :)

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Yes, his temps are dialed in perfectly but I'm currently battling the humidity. It's at 40%, I may need to just create a humid hide for him. Otherwise the tank is working beautifully during all hours and Pip seems happy :)

And I will update this thread with pictures of massive growth (assuming the thread is alive and the diagnosis was accurate) from little Pip.

I had a lot of humidity issues with my enclosure as well. What I found to work best was I got a 6" ceramic flower pot (Ceramic, it's heavier... a dog bowl or anything would probably work) and put some sphagnum moss in it, just a handful or so... then wet it down, and left maybe a 1/2" of water in the bottom of the bowl. The moss does a good job of absorbing the water, and then since there is a lot of surface area, it can evaporate quite well. My humidity was lingering around 40% and after I put that in the tank, it went up to the mid 50's. I did try to seal up the rest of the enclose pretty good, with the exception of a small vent in the back, but that may be worth a shot. You can get sphagnum moss at Lowes/Home Depot, and maybe other places. Most decent garden centers carry it.

Poor little darling. I feel your pain. I rescued a little bitty normal male someone had on Craigslist as a cinnamon. He was over a year old and weighed only 60 grams. His owners meant well, but they had been told he only needed one pinky mouse a MONTH. He was so far malnourished, the first time I offered him a fuzzy mouse ( he was too small to eat anything bigger ) he was terrified of it.

It took me weeks to get him eating appropriately sized meals every 5 days. But, once he started, he never looked back. In the 8 months he was in may care, he grew to over 1000 grams from 60. He gained weight and size so quickly, I swear you could watch him grow. He was a delightful little snake, despite his early setbacks, and his adoptive family were thrilled to get him. At my last update, he was 1600 grams steady and spoiled rotten.

Keep working with the little guy, sometimes they can really surprise you with their resiliency.

Gale

The water sitting on the moss doesn't warrant mold growth? That sounds like quite a musty area inside the ceramic bowl, but the idea seems solid, I've been thinking about using a humid hide but this sounds like a good way to get the humidity up for him without making HIM work for it. Definitely will be looking into it!

Also Gale, that comeback story sounds brilliant. I've decided to put Pip on a 6 day feeding schedule (hoppers) for now..I hope to see him grow as fast as your little guy did.

So I fed Pip a hopper a couple days ago, and long story short he had a very hard time getting it down due to the mouses "fetile" position. It was just awkward all around for him.
I handled him today and noticed he has what I can only explain as deflated scales. They look like wrinkles. Is this dehydration? I'm also worried that the mouse could've damaged him. Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/files/6/3/4/9/0/20160124_110140.jpg

(the scales I'm referring to are above my finger nail)

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Originally Posted by Pippers

So I fed Pip a hopper a couple days ago, and long story short he had a very hard time getting it down due to the mouses "fetile" position. It was just awkward all around for him.
I handled him today and noticed he has what I can only explain as deflated scales. They look like wrinkles. Is this dehydration? I'm also worried that the mouse could've damaged him. Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/files/6/3/4/9/0/20160124_110140.jpg

(the scales I'm referring to are above my finger nail)

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I looks to me like he needs some hydration ... Try bumping his humidity up to about 70% you can must his enclosure but if you are going to mist, it is important that his temperatures inside his enclosure are on point. If the temps are not spot on then you can give him a humid hide over his warm side of the enclosure ... This should take care of or at least help his saggy/wrinkled skin. .... As far as the feeding goes .... If properly thawed out and warmed up, it should be very easy to grab the feeder by the head with a thumb and finger and use the other hand to stretch out the feeder into a more natural position before offering it to him

He does look a little dry. He could also be entering a shed cycle.

Ok ty, I was going to be making him a humid hide today anyway and next time I clean out his cage I'll be switching to cypress mulch to maintain more humidity. Thanks for the helpful replies guys :)

Just put the damp moss underneath his warm rock hide, he's like "What the hell did you put in my house dude?!" I think he likes it but he can't admit it, we'll see.

Update on pip! He is now ~80 grams since last weighed (third hopper), which was about 3 days ago. However this was with a load of poop in his colon. He is in full shed right now, eyes more blue than they have ever been! I'm so excited..I'm hoping for one complete piece of skin. He still hasn't pooped and looks a bit constipated so I'm going to see if he poops after shed, and if not a bath shall be imminent. I assume it's just his body adjusting to bigger prey, but only time will tell.

So far it seems as if he's doing 100% better. What do you guys think?

My guess is, he'll poop... a LOT when he sheds. I've read this is fairly common and it's what I experienced with my BP as well. I was worried at first, but it's not uncommon. If he hasn't pooped or has trouble with his shed, don't soak him in a bath. instead, keep the humidity in the tank at 70% or higher, and put a wet washcloth in his hides and/or in his tank. That will help him more than a bath will. Unless it is something really sever, and a good vet warrants it, I don't think there ever really a need to force a bp into water.

So glad to hear he's bulking up and doing well. Good for you, and for Pip!! Hopefully we can see some pictures of him soon. :)

I've been putting damp moss in his hide but it dries out completely after 24 hours, so it's a pain to pull him off it and resoak it. Perhaps a washcloth would be much simpler, I'll try that instead to see if it's more efficient

I'll post pictures when they do his growth some justice :)

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Originally Posted by Pippers

I've been putting damp moss in his hide but it dries out completely after 24 hours, so it's a pain to pull him off it and resoak it. Perhaps a washcloth would be much simpler, I'll try that instead to see if it's more efficient

I'll post pictures when they do his growth some justice :)

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Cool!!!

I had a similar problem. I had a small bit of sphagnum moss and it kept drying out, what I felt was way too fast. I ended up getting like a 6" bowl, put a handful of moss in it, and then soaked the moss really well. when I'd change his water, I'd make sure the moss bowl had about a 1/2" of water in it. the moss does a good job of wicking up the water and then letting it evaporate, increasing your humidity. May give that a shot too.

Hi there
I'm new to these forums but not to reptiles.
Reptiles are known to lower their metabolism when their habitat is hostile. They can slow or even stop growth. This shouldn't be the case since you gave him food since you have him, but his genetics could be playing a small (or big) role, slowing his growth because the type of food wasn't changing (size of prey). If it is indeed the case, then once you start giving him the proper care his metabolism should resume and start growing again. Of course, failing to adquire proper nutrients in early stages of life could lead to permanent changes in the animal, like a small size (although not so small), mental disorders or behavior anormalities.
But, genetics could also be the ONLY problem. Intense interbreeding can cause (and will cause for certain in the future) genetic issues. Lethal homozygosity and other body malformities are easily spotted by breeders but other genetic disorders (and a great part of them) are hard to aknowledge and probably will go unnoticed until adulthood.
Now, I'm not saying this is the case and i'm not accussing the person or shop who sold you that animal of anything because if your ball is indeed genetically malformed, there's no way anyone could've know.
You can only get him the proper habitat requirements, give him bigger prey and hope for the best.
If he's not ill but doesn't grow, well, you'll have a unique dwarf ball python and you should be happy because he survived.


Regarding the humidity, if the moss dries, then buy a small tupper with a lid, make a hole with a knife or a tin-lead welder and place wet (but not too wet) sphagnum moss inside. Your guy should hide in it and that way you can give him different gradients of humidity in his cage. But remember to change the moss every week because if you don't it will start to rot.

Forgive the question, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence at all--but you are thawing/warming the mice/rats you are giving the snake, correct?

So I opened Pips hide today and found...a ball of skin. One complete shed it looks like, except I can't tell if his eye caps are still on. He doesn't seem flinchy around fast movements so I have my concerns. Will keep an eye on his eyes for cracks!

Other news, I had made a plan to switch from aspen to cypress mulch after his shed, so I began this. While I was changing it and re-dialing in the temps, I bathed him in lukewarm water and well...let's just say all hell broke loose. I'm worried about one of the turds which is yellow and looks like there could be eggs in it? Idk that's just my paranoia perhaps.

Without further ado..

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...6373107a61.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...c2457e71d7.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...7a3fc252b4.jpg
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

I wouldn't worry too much because he is getting used to the new food and the propper stuff. I would put him in a sterillite tub with paper towel just for the ease of cleaning etc and too be able to keep proper humidity and heat. That's good that he shed though.