Is live feeding really that bad?

Can we start scheduling this fight, I mean debate, for the same day every month?

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Originally Posted by distaff

One thing that made a strong impression on me early on when I started researching was an account by a guy who blamed a bad batch of F/T for the death of his boa. He believed that the rats had gone bad before they were frozen, and caused two regurges (to the best of my memory).

Could have been the case, I don't know. I do know for sure that if I get a live mouse - it hasn't spoiled! I can also get a general impression on its current health.

We raise our own chickens, rabbits and goats. I butcher the rabbits and poultry. I have butchered goats, but it is easier to send them off. I know they had comfortable lives, I know what they ate, I know they were healthy when they died, I know the slaughter was quick and humane, and I know the butchering process was sanitary. Might as well have the same for the snakes if possible. We buy live mice from the local independently owned pet store - they raise their own, and I've told the owner I want to buy some breeders to start my own colony.

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You see I've been keeping snakes for years and years ... Currently have 22 including 8' Snow Boa , F2 Dwarf Hypo Burmese python , various King snakes , Corn snakes , Royal pythons , Garter snakes , Rhino , Bamboo and LTR Rat-snakes .... quite a variety of snakes and requirements .

Guess what ?

Feeding d/f frozen all those years , thousands and thousands of feeds and not ONE single problem .... Zero risk of injuries to snakes as well . Bonus !

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Originally Posted by SKO

Can we start scheduling this fight, I mean debate, for the same day every month?

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Wednesday's good for me .. It's my day off :)

Zincubus, there is a risk but it is very, very rare, as you can see by reading the posts. There are going to be instances where a snake gets injured by it's prey, even less common getting a permanent wound or a fatal blow. If you read these posts, you can still believe you think frozen is better - that is fine. Everyone has their opinion but you are laying yours down on us like if you feed your snake live the prey is going to pull out a M80 and start blowing your snake to smithereens. The least your snake is MOST LIKELY to get is a little bite/scratch that will heal in a matter of days or in the next shed. That's all there is to it. If you read the posts, leaving your snake unsupervised for too long or leaving the prey in the tank overnight can deliver some marks, possibly worse than just a cut. But if you watch over and if the snake doesn't eat you just take the animal out - you'll be fine.

Frozen is good is it has many advantages.
Live is also good and it has many advantages.

Both of them have their downsides.

Frozen may be contaminated if bought be an untrustworthy company or it was induced to death by medication, toxins, etc, or has fallen rotten.
Live may fight against your snake.

Both of these can EASILY be avoided.

Both ways are good, I'm not going against any. My question was: Is live really that bad? Because I've been seeing a lot of people saying like in your first post - it'll rip your snake's eyes out. But that isn't the case, which I suspected and all of these people have the proof for it.

There's no need to keep fighting about this.

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Originally Posted by Nixon

Zincubus, there is a risk but it is very, very rare, as you can see by reading the posts. There are going to be instances where a snake gets injured by it's prey, even less common getting a permanent wound or a fatal blow. If you read these posts, you can still believe you think frozen is better - that is fine. Everyone has their opinion but you are laying yours down on us like if you feed your snake live the prey is going to pull out a M80 and start blowing your snake to smithereens. The least your snake is MOST LIKELY to get is a little bite/scratch that will heal in a matter of days or in the next shed. That's all there is to it. If you read the posts, leaving your snake unsupervised for too long or leaving the prey in the tank overnight can deliver some marks, possibly worse than just a cut. But if you watch over and if the snake doesn't eat you just take the animal out - you'll be fine.

Frozen is good is it has many advantages.
Live is also good and it has many advantages.

Both of them have their downsides.

Frozen may be contaminated if bought be an untrustworthy company or it was induced to death by medication, toxins, etc, or has fallen rotten.
Live may fight against your snake.

Both of these can EASILY be avoided.

Both ways are good, I'm not going against any. My question was: Is live really that bad? Because I've been seeing a lot of people saying like in your first post - it'll rip your snake's eyes out. But that isn't the case, which I suspected and all of these people have the proof for it.

There's no need to keep fighting about this.

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Nice , fairly balanced post which is reassuring ... the issue of the potential damage to their eyes is an obvious weakness though . I badly scratched eye or one pierced by teeth can and does happen .... no I've never witnessed it but as I said before even though I've never been there I know the Sun is damned HOT.

When you've got a terrified , creature with teeth and sharp claws that's cornered in a confined space and your precious snake is approaching ... the eyes are so vulnerable .. and yes there are an infinite number of evidential photos online .

Anyways all that was to enlighten anyone who was unsure of the potential risks to their snakes .

My main reason is that I LOVE every living thing . I've said before how when I'm out dog walking or jogging and I see a worm or a slug struggling across a pavement / sidewalk I pick them up and drop them in a safe place even though I abhor slug slime . I just couldn't imagine how people drop a cute little mouse or baby rat into its death . That's just how SOME of us are though . It doesn't make us better or worse than anyone else so there's no point someone now saying I'm being all self righteous as I'm not . It's just how I am . I realise that the frozen mice have been killed but thing is ... I DIDN'T KILL IT .. so that is how I'm able to live with the idea of feeding rodents to my snakes .

Last little point - as apparently only things I've witnessed myself are considered as legitimate ... a few weeks ago when I was buying a couple frozen XL rats for my beautiful , unscarred , Snow Boa the store assistant actually cut her hand on one of the rats claws - she was really upset and annoyed and she said something about disease and getting the wound infected ..

Seriously . I'm done here for a while . That's why I thought I'd offload a bit in this post .

.. I as I've said .. I never wanted to upset or anger anyone it's just me being me ( maybe a bit of being British as well - as live feeding is completely frowned upon over here - thankfully )

Regards

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Nice , fairly balanced post which is reassuring ... the issue of the potential damage to their eyes is an obvious weakness though . I badly scratched eye or one pierced by teeth can and does happen .... no I've never witnessed it but as I said before even though I've never been there I know the Sun is damned HOT.

When you've got a terrified , creature with teeth and sharp claws that's cornered in a confined space and your precious snake is approaching ... the eyes are so vulnerable .. and yes there are an infinite number of evidential photos online .

Anyways all that was to enlighten anyone who was unsure of the potential risks to their snakes .

My main reason is that I LOVE every living thing . I've said before how when I'm out dog walking or jogging and I see a worm or a slug struggling across a pavement / sidewalk I pick them up and drop them in a safe place even though I abhor slug slime . I just couldn't imagine how people drop a cute little mouse or baby rat into its death . That's just how SOME of us are though . It doesn't make us better or worse than anyone else so there's no point someone now saying I'm being all self righteous as I'm not . It's just how I am . I realise that the frozen mice have been killed but thing is ... I DIDN'T KILL IT .. so that is how I'm able to live with the idea of feeding rodents to my snakes .

Last little point - as apparently only things I've witnessed myself are considered as legitimate ... a few weeks ago when I was buying a couple frozen XL rats for my beautiful , unscarred , Snow Boa the store assistant actually cut her hand on one of the rats claws - she was really upset and annoyed and she said something about disease and getting the wound infected ..

Seriously . I'm done here for a while . That's why I thought I'd offload a bit in this post .

.. I as I've said .. I never wanted to upset or anger anyone it's just me being me ( maybe a bit of being British as well - as live feeding is completely frowned upon over here - thankfully )

Regards

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You describing live feeding as if you had a clue which you have not. FUNNY

There is no terrified creature with sharp claws and teeth, if you had a clue you would know that when done right which EXPERIENCE people do, the feeder will go in a corner, groom itself and fall asleep, so much for that, but hey you must know more than I do because I have only fed 20000+ live preys.

Again get a clue and go spread fear and lies elsewhere, I can recommend a few forum where people will go for everything you say, here not so much because people are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

BTW still time to make good on your empty promises because no matter what YOUR agenda is wrong and always will be.

Try to educate people for a change instead of trying to scare them with your ignorance.


And spare me on the I am British this has nothing to do with anything, frowned upon or not it's up to any individual to expend their own personal knowledge.


Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Deborah

You describing live feeding as if you had a clue which you have not. FUNNY

There is no terrified creature with sharp claws and teeth, if you had a clue you would know that when done right which EXPERIENCE people do, the feeder will go in a corner, groom itself and fall asleep, so much for that, but hey you must know more than I do because I have only fed 20000+ live preys.

Again get a clue and go spread fear and lies elsewhere, I can recommend a few forum where people will go for everything you say, here not so much because people are more intelligent than you give them credit for.

BTW still time to make good on your empty promises because no matter what YOUR agenda is wrong and always will be.

Try to educate people for a change instead of trying to scare them with your ignorance.


And spare me on the I am British this has nothing to do with anything, frowned upon or not it's up to any individual to expend their own personal knowledge.


Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

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You seem very defensive, aggressive and even stressed to be honest yet I'm nicely chilled and calm .... Interesting in itself.


Post some links to some rats , cuddling up in corners before they're eaten painlessly in their sleep and I'll have a look ;)

Someone seems to forget to mention all the snakes that die from f/t too.
They can be a problem for keepers that don't know how to thaw out properly.
A snake can get injured from eating a rat that is partially still frozen too.

Don't forget the waste of a life.
You thaw a rat, none of your snakes eat it so what do you do?
Some will refreeze to offer another day but many will just throw it out.
I would refreeze but that's a whole different debate on the growth of bacteria.
Now you have wasted a rat that you have no clue what it went through to die.
A live goes back in the rack to live another week.

I am not faulting frozen or live feeding.
What I am faulting is the ignorance being spewed.
If you have never had a dog in the fight then your point still doesn't count.

By Zincubus' point I can toss my hat into a debate on any subject I want to just because I can google a photo of it??
I'm smarter than that and don't like making myself look foolish if I don't have to.
Then again this continual debate with someone that doesn't comprehend experience from theory makes many of us look bad or stupid or whatever but ironically none that "seem very defensive, aggressive and even stressed" fault for feeding frozen. SMH

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Someone seems to forget to mention all the snakes that die from f/t too.
They can be a problem for keepers that don't know how to thaw out properly.
A snake can get injured from eating a rat that is partially still frozen too.

Don't forget the waste of a life.
You thaw a rat, none of your snakes eat it so what do you do?
Some will refreeze to offer another day but many will just throw it out.
I would refreeze but that's a whole different debate on the growth of bacteria.
Now you have wasted a rat that you have no clue what it went through to die.
A live goes back in the rack to live another week.

I am not faulting frozen or live feeding.
What I am faulting is the ignorance being spewed.
If you have never had a dog in the fight then your point still doesn't count.

By Zincubus' point I can toss my hat into a debate on any subject I want to just because I can google a photo of it??
I'm smarter than that and don't like making myself look foolish if I don't have to.
Then again this continual debate with someone that doesn't comprehend experience from theory makes many of us look bad or stupid or whatever but ironically none that "seem very defensive, aggressive and even stressed" fault for feeding frozen. SMH

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Notice that I'm the one in here not throwing meaningless , petty insults around .. see a pattern emerging ?

All I do is offer an opposing view which is only reasonable .

The reasoning that everyone in here feeds live and has always fed live doesn't mean it's the BEST option .

Note I said best not correct option ..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Notice that I'm the one in here not throwing meaningless , petty insults around .. see a pattern emerging ?

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What do you consider a meaningless insult? Me calling you ignorant? LoL
It would only be meaningless if it were not true, you are completely ignorant to live feeding in every definition of the word.
BTW to help you out it means you have no clue.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

What do you consider a meaningless insult? Me calling you ignorant? LoL
It would only be meaningless if it were not true, you are completely ignorant to live feeding in every definition of the word.
BTW to help you out it means you have no clue.

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Another insult .... you're doing well .

I cant believe your all wasting your time again having this discussion with zinc like he/she is gonna change the stubborn fear mongering ways in witch he/she attempts to " give an opinion". Witch is nothin more then bad mouthing something based on what happens on a rare ocassion.... Theres dangers in f/t feeding so should we spread hate against it soley based on what could happen vs educating people based on actual expierence. And im sure everyone here who has feed live can attest to the mouse/ rat just chilling in the tank, they arent runnig around scared or terrified... But i know it dosent matter becase you apparently know more about the dangers of feeding live then all the breeders on this site with years and years of expierence doing it with zero problems

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Another insult .... you're doing well .

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Again, IF I called you stupid that would be an insult. I have read some of your better posts on topics that you actually have experience with so I know you are not stupid.
Don't know what the problem is with people not understanding if they are ignorant or not? Have you ever fed live? Do you feed live? We all know the answer.

ig·no·rant /ˈiɡnərənt/ adjective: ignorant
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

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Originally Posted by Nixon

Zincubus, there is a risk but it is very, very rare, as you can see by reading the posts. There are going to be instances where a snake gets injured by it's prey, even less common getting a permanent wound or a fatal blow. If you read these posts, you can still believe you think frozen is better - that is fine. Everyone has their opinion but you are laying yours down on us like if you feed your snake live the prey is going to pull out a M80 and start blowing your snake to smithereens. The least your snake is MOST LIKELY to get is a little bite/scratch that will heal in a matter of days or in the next shed. That's all there is to it. If you read the posts, leaving your snake unsupervised for too long or leaving the prey in the tank overnight can deliver some marks, possibly worse than just a cut. But if you watch over and if the snake doesn't eat you just take the animal out - you'll be fine.

Frozen is good is it has many advantages.
Live is also good and it has many advantages.

Both of them have their downsides.

Frozen may be contaminated if bought be an untrustworthy company or it was induced to death by medication, toxins, etc, or has fallen rotten.
Live may fight against your snake.

Both of these can EASILY be avoided.

Both ways are good, I'm not going against any. My question was: Is live really that bad? Because I've been seeing a lot of people saying like in your first post - it'll rip your snake's eyes out. But that isn't the case, which I suspected and all of these people have the proof for it.

There's no need to keep fighting about this.

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I believe in offering what ever prey item that is required for your snake to eat. I have some that only eat live, so that's what I give them. There are snakes out there who prefer mice or ASF's over rats. It's not about which method is right or wrong, it's about which method your snake chooses as its personal preference

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Again, IF I called you stupid that would be an insult. I have read some of your better posts on topics that you actually have experience with so I know you are not stupid.
Don't know what the problem is with people not understanding if they are ignorant or not? Have you ever fed live? Do you feed live? We all know the answer.

ig·no·rant /ˈiɡnərənt/ adjective: ignorant
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

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Ok fair enough ... We'd better end on a good note .

Seems like a good time to make a run for it before I get banned .

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

I believe in offering what ever prey item that is required for your snake to eat. I have some that only eat live, so that's what I give them. There are snakes out there who prefer mice or ASF's over rats. It's not about which method is right or wrong, it's about which method your snake chooses as its personal preference

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:gj: worded perfectly

Sorry for getting under everyone's skin , it was never my intention.

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

I believe in offering what ever prey item that is required for your snake to eat. I have some that only eat live, so that's what I give them. There are snakes out there who prefer mice or ASF's over rats. It's not about which method is right or wrong, it's about which method your snake chooses as its personal preference

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Well this will have to be my last input in this thread and whilst you've made some reasonable points I'm perplexed as to why sooooo many people apparently have snakes that will only eat LIVE food when I've NEVER , EVER had one single snake who wouldn't take df frozen - I've kept over a hundred or more over the years including around 20 Royals who as everyone knows can be let's say fussy.

Just to totally squirrel this post...............
Today I will be on the hunt for frozen or live pinky mice.
Just got a pair of Mexican Black Kings and my mice are refusing to breed for me. (gonna have the KFC talk with them tomorrow night) :rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Just to totally squirrel this post...............
Today I will be on the hunt for frozen or live pinky mice.
Just got a pair of Mexican Black Kings and my mice are refusing to breed for me. (gonna have the KFC talk with them tomorrow night) :rofl::rofl:

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Love MBKs .., now they DO have an appetite :)

I've got a beaut male MBK .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Love MBKs .., now they DO have an appetite :)

I've got a beaut male MBK .

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I feel bad not having a food source for them but they were a gift to me from a friend.

Ay, when snakes eat mice they give them a big hug, don't they?

Theres nothing perplexing about it, you just refuse to accept other peoples expierences for some reason unless its online and in photo... Remember the world is huge and full of many people and not all of them run to the internet to inform the world on everything that happens, sometime they dont talk about it out loud till the need arises like in these kind of discussion. Its your job to learn from others expierence on subjects you have no expierence with not try and argue your point of view

Were all here for the love of the snake in the end. Pass on what you know and learn what you dont, everyone wins in the end :rockon: :carouse:

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Originally Posted by M.P.C

Theres nothing perplexing about it, you just refuse to accept other peoples expierences for some reason unless its online and in photo... Remember the world is huge and full of many people and not all of them run to the internet to inform the world on everything that happens, sometime they dont talk about it out loud till the need arises like in these kind of discussion. Its your job to learn from others expierence on subjects you have no expierence with not try and argue your point of view

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Again fair points ... that said I've just explained that in all my years and all the snakes that have literally passed through my hands ... I've never had one that wouldn't take df frozen mouse /rat , some even had df frozen chicks / multis as a treat .. yet you and some others constantly imply that my stance is solely based on Internet surfing ..

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Originally Posted by M.P.C

Were all here for the love of the snake in the end. Pass on what you know and learn what you dont, everyone wins in the end :rockon: :carouse:

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I'd agree totally with that .

OK I'd like to share a bit of my limited experience when it comes to feeding live or F/T. I, personally, do not have any experience feeding live rodents to either of my snakes. My new addition took his first f/t with me which his breeder told me that he was readily pounding. However, I witness live feedings through a good friend of mine that actually introduced me to the idea of owning snakes.

My friend has a few bps that only accept live. I asked her why she fed them live and wondered if they could convert. She assured me that they were only going to eat live because that is what they like. I asked her to further explain. She tried everything when it came to f/t. Heating, scenting, more heating but using a different way, zombie dancing, moving them to another tub and waiting another week or two, asf, etc. All of those methods gave her no results when it came to her beloved picky animals and she was wasting money. Finally, my friend gave in and gave them both live. BAM! Her snakes struck without hesitation and this is the method she stuck with from then on. I asked her if she ever had anything happen to her animals from live rats. My friend, then, gave me the run down of that as well. Since she only has a few bps, it isn't an issue for her to monitor each ones feeding. Her feeding schedule for them also takes place on a day that she is off of work. She told me that so long as I am there supervising and ready to intervene, my bp will be fine on live. I should have nothing to worry about. She even pulled out one of her bps that had a small scar from a rat bite and told me to just remember where that scar was. A couple sheds later, the scar was gone! My friend reassured me that bps are very hardy creatures.

My friend advised me that if I was going to get a bp, to remember that they sometimes do not conform to what we want them to do. They are animals with their own set of preferences and we just have to go with THEIR flow. I took those words to heart when I was thinking of getting a bp.

So do I think feeding live is really that bad? No. Plenty of responsible people feed live without significant problems. Do I feed live? No. I prefer f/t merely for convenience sake. A small apartment equals no room for breeding bins for rats. Am I prepared to feed live because my snake wants one or two or tons? Yes I am because of the advice and reassurance I got from my friend. Anyway, that is my limited experience on the subject of live vs f/t.

Zincubus, please let it go...please.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

You seem very defensive, aggressive and even stressed to be honest yet I'm nicely chilled and calm .... Interesting in itself.


Post some links to some rats , cuddling up in corners before they're eaten painlessly in their sleep and I'll have a look ;)

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Nope I am actually here in my corner laughing at the ignorance in every single of your post :rofl:

Unlike you I am keep my promises and I am done with this thread (so no need to answer), you can lead a horse to the water.

Keep on doing what you doing showing your IGNORANCE by trying to scare people off based on ZERO experience and until next time....have fun because you are a waste of time, I believe people have made up their mind about you, so my job is done here.

One last thing didn't you mention you were an educator? You educate out of fear and ignorance? Good job.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Nope I am actually here in my corner laughing at the ignorance in every single of your post :rofl:

Unlike you I am keep my promises and I am done with this thread (so no need to answer), you can lead a horse to the water.

Keep on doing what you doing showing your IGNORANCE by trying to scare people off based on ZERO experience and until next time....have fun because you are a waste of time, I believe people have made up their mind about you, so my job is done here.

One last thing didn't you mention you were an educator? You educate out of fear and ignorance? Good job.

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Good job by you at falling to a new low ....personal insults !? Really .... Aren't you a mod ??

Deborah , Deborah , Deborah ...... Where to start with you my lovely ...

You really know nothing about me to be fair . End of .

You also seem to forget ( conveniently ) that I'm Aspergers and as such -prone to being obsessive ( should be kinda obvious anyways ) .

So whilst I had every intention of walking away quietly with my tail between my legs ( again ) each time I checked TapaTalk another person had added a comment that I felt needed a response . Simple as .


So I'm not casually going back on my word to leave the the thread - ( I chose thread rather than debate as its not a discussion because only one side of the is allowed to be offered .)

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

Zincubus, please let it go...please.

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If you check a few posts back we were all playing nicely and a fairly happy place was found ...

Debby just wasn't happy though ....

I'm guessing that I'll get banned as that's presumably what certain people seem to aiming for ....

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So I'm not casually going back on my word to leave the the thread - ( I chose thread rather than debate as its not a discussion because only one side of the is allowed to be offered .)

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I beg to differ sir.

There are positive and respected posts in this thread from folks that feed frozen, including me. The difference between me and you is that I have had a lot of EXPERIENCE feeding live. And I do not try to push my current practice of feeding frozen or admonish those that do feed live.

And much to your surprise, I have read at least one thread in the past where Deborah has said that she feeds some of her snakes frozen. Again, one whom had or does EXPERIENCE both types of feeding.

For some reason it is not getting through to you that you are not Credible on this subject due to your lack of ANY EXPERIENCE in feeding live.


http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...02cf4132e1.jpg


A thread without pics just ain't right!

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm guessing that I'll get banned as that's presumably what certain people seem to aiming for ....

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Being stubborn isn't against the rules. You do a fair bit of goading but that's not really against the rules either, it's up to others to rise to the bait or not - depending on their mood, a lot of us like a good argument as much as the next person. You really should think of rephrasing your signing out message though. Something along the lines of, "I'm done here, so long as nobody has the audacity to post after me", would fit your style better.

I can find all kinds of cool pictures on the internet. I could pull up pictures of zombies attacking folks and we can have a good discussion on how to best prepare for this inevitability. One of my favorites is the flat earth society - because we all know this idea of roundness is complete and utter nonsense.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm guessing that I'll get banned as that's presumably what certain people seem to aiming for ....

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You are in control of what YOU post. So why are you worried about getting banned?
This is the second time in this thread that you have brought it up. If you want to leave then leave but don't look for anyone to beg you or anyone else to stay.
Its your choice to stay here or leave as long as you comply with the sites TOS.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You are in control of what YOU post. So why are you worried about getting banned?
This is the second time in this thread that you have brought it up. If you want to leave then leave but don't look for anyone to beg you or anyone else to stay.
Its your choice to stay here or leave as long as you comply with the sites TOS.

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I've certainly not begged anyone to ask me to stay .... No idea where that idea are from .

I've simply explained why I struggle to leave conversations as to breaking rules ...a lot of that is down to moderator's opinions.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Nope I am actually here in my corner laughing at the ignorance in every single of your post :rofl:

Unlike you I am keep my promises and I am done with this thread (so no need to answer), you can lead a horse to the water.

Keep on doing what you doing showing your IGNORANCE by trying to scare people off based on ZERO experience and until next time....have fun because you are a waste of time, I believe people have made up their mind about you, so my job is done here.

One last thing didn't you mention you were an educator? You educate out of fear and ignorance? Good job.

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I definitely do not have a dog in this fight, and I am not going to comment on the merits of f/t vs live, but after reading this thread, as well as experiencing many of my own, I must comment on some patterns I have seen developing. As I have spread out to other reptile based forums, I have noticed an incredibly stark contrast in how moderators interact with members. It seems that on this forum, rather than oversee the threads and information presented, moderators are incredibly quick to name call, judge, and denigrate anyone who does not share their opinions, and are seemingly openly willing to quickly jump into a fight, and berate members. Calling someone "a waste of time" and disrespecting their career as an educator, as seen in this post, is absolutely unacceptable. I was under the impression that this behavior was not to be tolerated by members, surely a moderator should be held to the same or a higher standard. As BP.net was my first forum I belonged to, I began to think that moderators ganging up on, and disrespecting members was the status quo. Yet now that I am a member of two other forums, I have found this is not the case. Moderators on other forums are respectful, informative, patient, and do not enter into disputes on threads. They diffuse fights, rather than promote them.

I understand that this is a privately owned forum, and the owners can create whatever environment they want, albeit however hostile it is. But as a moderator, you represent the site and the culture that the site promotes. Engaging in, and promoting spats with members, and using disrespectful language only serves to reflect horrifically on the site itself, and those that own it. You as moderators should be setting the example, and the positive tone with which this site should run. I

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

a lot of that is down to moderator's opinions.

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Yet again I will give you another link http://ball-pythons.net/forums/annou...t.php?f=89&a=9--These are the rules to follow. I don't care how any of us feel or what side of the bed I woke up on, the rules are there plain and simple. We as MODs only enforce whats written.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

I definitely do not have a dog in this fight, and I am not going to comment on the merits of f/t vs live, but after reading this thread, as well as experiencing many of my own, I must comment on some patterns I have seen developing. As I have spread out to other reptile based forums, I have noticed an incredibly stark contrast in how moderators interact with members. It seems that on this forum, rather than oversee the threads and information presented, moderators are incredibly quick to name call, judge, and denigrate anyone who does not share their opinions, and are seemingly openly willing to quickly jump into a fight, and berate members. Calling someone "a waste of time" and disrespecting their career as an educator, as seen in this post, is absolutely unacceptable. I was under the impression that this behavior was not to be tolerated by members, surely a moderator should be held to the same or a higher standard. As BP.net was my first forum I belonged to, I began to think that moderators ganging up on, and disrespecting members was the status quo. Yet now that I am a member of two other forums, I have found this is not the case. Moderators on other forums are respectful, informative, patient, and do not enter into disputes on threads. They diffuse fights, rather than promote them.

I understand that this is a privately owned forum, and the owners can create whatever environment they want, albeit however hostile it is. But as a moderator, you represent the site and the culture that the site promotes. Engaging in, and promoting spats with members, and using disrespectful language only serves to reflect horrifically on the site itself, and those that own it. You as moderators should be setting the example, and the positive tone with which this site should run. I

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You as one that likes to stir the pot should really think about what you just posted.
You speak of other forums that you like much better, same door is open to you.
I pass over many things and think about what I type because I know what my first response always is and most people don't like it.
Take that for what you want but think about what you want to type.

The fact that moderators let other moderators berate people, and they themselves are not held to the same standard as members is a disgrace.

You and Deborah hide behind TOS and take jabs at people. Nice job being the authority figures.

If this forum was actually about disseminating useful information, and not eviscerating people, you two would stop fights, not prolong them.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

The fact that moderators let other moderators berate people, and they themselves are not held to the same standard as members is a disgrace.

You and Deborah hide behind TOS and take jabs at people. Nice job being the authority figures.

If this forum was actually about disseminating useful information, and not eviscerating people, you two would stop fights, not prolong them.

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I dont hide behind anything. You just like to cry about having to play by the rules and didnt like that the repercussions of your past attempted posts. We dont need to air this poblicly if you would like? I am nit hard to find through PMs..... Or the links below. Either is good with me.
While on this site we all follow the rules and Admins see over the MODs but you should already k ow and understand that.
If you have a real complaint then find a name in RED.

I don't see anything wrong with what the moderators are doing. They're just acting how they would act anytime else. If someone claimed something to be right or wrong with no pure evidence off experience (at least in this case you need it), then it's not surprising that people will go against that. Just because they're mods doesn't mean they have to make everyone happy. They're people too with their opinions. Moderators and admins don't need to be a role model all the time. Yes, they need to enforce rules and such but as long as they're following the rules themselves, they can post their arguments and opinions.

This isn't representing anything bad about the community. To be honest what Zincubus is saying is getting exhausting. I thought he/she said they were done posting about the topic but yet they keep coming back.

I think that this forum has had enough answers on three different subjects. It may be a good time to let it fall into the abyss with the other already answered forums. This is my last post and I hope it is everyone else's as well before people start feeling unwelcome to this site all together.

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Originally Posted by BCS

I think that this forum has had enough answers on three different subjects. It may be a good time to let it fall into the abyss with the other already answered forums. This is my last post and I hope it is everyone else's as well before people start feeling unwelcome to this site all together.

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ice cream. cone or cup? discuss.

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Originally Posted by se7en

ice cream. cone or cup? discuss.

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Situational for me, but usually:
Banana Split > Waffle Cone > Sugar Cone > Milkshake (sometimes Malt) > Kiddie Cone > Bowl

My husband doesn't care much for anything but french vanilla, which he usually takes plain, packed into a red solo cup, because class.

Waffle cone. No ice cream in it. (That's how vegans eat ice cream lol )

Why has this thread not died yet? After the first three pages it's basically just been the same people repeating the exact same things and occasionally calling shenanigans on mods or other members. It's not like it's going anywhere, and no one's saying anything new...

Waffle cup - best of both, with Italian ice or sorbet, please (lactose intolerance).


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I haven't read this whole thread.. but I wanted to give my 2 cents.

I prefer feeding f/t.

Here's why:
- I don't like watching animals get killed.
- I currently feed live and f/t, because some of my snakes prefer live. I don't like babysitting snakes either, so I prefer having the snake grab a f/t, and then I'm on my way. With f/t, I throw 'em in a container and pop that into my incubator for the day.. When I get home, I feed them off. Simple - 20 minute task. Opposed to throwing a live rat in, making sure it doesn't hurt my snake, and sitting there in case the snake has a terrible grab.
- I don't breed rats, so I have to buy live rats from the reptile shops which are expensive, or from friends who live far away - both options don't always have the size I'm looking for.
- The rats will also bite whatever is in reach, which is often some place on my snake's body, resulting in dented scales, or even scales being chewed off. If the rat's mouth is in my snake's mouth, they can also get some bites inside the mouth, which is horrible!

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Originally Posted by h00blah

I haven't read this whole thread.. but I wanted to give my 2 cents.

I prefer feeding f/t.

Here's why:
- I don't like watching animals get killed.
- I currently feed live and f/t, because some of my snakes prefer live. I don't like babysitting snakes either, so I prefer having the snake grab a f/t, and then I'm on my way. With f/t, I throw 'em in a container and pop that into my incubator for the day.. When I get home, I feed them off. Simple - 20 minute task. Opposed to throwing a live rat in, making sure it doesn't hurt my snake, and sitting there in case the snake has a terrible grab.
- I don't breed rats, so I have to buy live rats from the reptile shops which are expensive, or from friends who live far away - both options don't always have the size I'm looking for.
- The rats will also bite whatever is in reach, which is often some place on my snake's body, resulting in dented scales, or even scales being chewed off. If the rat's mouth is in my snake's mouth, they can also get some bites inside the mouth, which is horrible!

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Nice work - great post .
Very reasonable and balanced view on the matter .

Better get your protective gear on though ;)

Why would she need protective gear she feeds both live and f/t and gave a educated opinion. ..you my friend have not

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Originally Posted by frostysBP

Why would she need protective gear she feeds both live and f/t and gave a educated opinion. ..you my friend have not

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It was a light- hearted comment .... there was always the chance that someone would be outraged ....