My "theory"

I THINK the main point Adam was making, and I KNOW it was my point in this thread, is that the dangers of feeding live has been completely exaggerated over the years. I think we all know that feeding live comes with a risk. Yet if you use proper precautions you minimize the risk greatly.

What people need to keep in mind is that each and every one of us (snake keepers) have to make a decision on what feeding method works best for us. None of the three methods are right or wrong. Yet each and every one of them CAN BE DONE WRONG. As long as people are using proper procedures and are taking the necassary precautions, be it live, FT or PK, we should all be satisfied in knowing we are doing our best by our animals.

Dead mice don't bite. They don't pose a risk of tooth inflicted bite injury to your snake. How's that reckless?

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I think we all know that feeding live comes with a risk.

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THAT IS ALL that needs to be acknowledged. It seems that point was being actively refuted, however.

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Originally Posted by Shrap

Yet each and every one of them CAN BE DONE WRONG. As long as people are using proper procedures and are taking the necassary precautions, be it live, FT or PK, we should all be satisfied in knowing we are doing our best by our animals.

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OMG!!! ... YAY!!! .... There is hope in the world! :pray:

-adam (doin a little happy dance right now ... thanks Shrap)

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ahhhh .... Marla ... just found your post ... sorry I missed it, as it's a good one!

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Thanks. I wondered why you had apparently chosen not to respond, I guess you just missed it.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Who's to say what "measure" of pain or suffering is tolerable. Certainly not I. There's no evidence of how a rodent "feels". It's like the whole argument about how would you like to die .... choking, heat attack, etc. I mean really ... I always say "I don't wanna die, but I know I have to, so what difference does it make." .... At the pet stores around here, the feeder rodents and the pet rodents are always seperate. When I need a rodent in a pinch and have to go the pet store and they're out of feeders, they won't even sell me the "pet" rats. :twisted:

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Yours is a good question, at least in a philosophical/contemplative sort of way, but I think when it comes down to it, time from beginning to ending of pain gives us a reasonable guess of amount of suffering and is the best guideline we have. It's not so much a question of how to die as how long does it hurt. If you asked 20 people whether they had to die (given these as their only choices) by poison gas in their sleep, by having their heads cut off, or by being put in a giant pressure cuff and slowly squeezed until their hearts stopped, lungs couldn't inhale, and blood couldn't flow from one body part to another, I would bet good money that almost all would pick one of the first two choices. I suppose there would be some masochists in the crowd who'd opt for the slow approach, but I doubt many mice are really into that. I could be wrong, though, who knows?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'll give ya that, mice are nasty little fu*** .... well you know. But I've still never seen one attack a snake. This is a good point though because I feed the majority of my snakes rats and choose not to leave mice in with snakes overnight. I always reccomend no longer than an hour for newbies. As far as bad angles go, if thats a problem, feeding a little bit of a smaller prey item might be in order. Many people have this obsession with using large and medium rats that I simply cannot understand.

-adam

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I had a adult bp that I had to give up a number of years ago when I moved and she was a good eater on live mice, 4 to 6 in a feeding but only one in the cage at a time. This was a 50" or so girl eating little 3" or so (body, not tail) mice, and sometimes she'd miss or get her angle wrong. Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think. Fortunately she always won in the end, but sometimes mice are mean or just desperate and will act a bit loco to try and escape becoming dinner. If it were large rats she was missing her strike on or getting the angle wrong, there could have been a good bit more danger to her than with the little mice.

In fact, my biggest bp I have now (~48") came to me eating live medium rats, which I continued for the first few feedings, and one of her strikes was off and she coiled around the hips, which meant I had to use something (don't remember what, now) to get the rat's teeth out of her neck and hold them out of the way while she finished killing it. If I hadn't been there, it certainly could have done more damage than it did.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Dead mice don't bite. They don't pose a risk of tooth inflicted bite injury to your snake. How's that reckless?

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Well, if you make the statement and then don't explain that if the rodent isn't 100% thawed out, unthawed internal organs once inside the snakes stomach can begin to decay and cause a bacterial infection that may turn systemic and comprimise the animal, you are being reckless.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

THAT IS ALL that needs to be acknowledged. It seems that point was being actively refuted, however.

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Please re-read my words, I never said that there is zero risk in feeding live. I've said that feeding live is safe. I advocated that a live rodent should be left in with the snake for no more than an hour (even though I personally leave some in overnight) and that the rodent and snake should be watched.

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Originally Posted by Marla

I could be wrong, though, who knows?

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Exactly, and so could I. The debate really is philosophical. I often wonder if rodents (being natural prey items in nature) have some internal mechanism to deal with being captured and killed. Like some sort of sensory detachment to cope with their designed fate.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think.

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Good point .. too small would be a bad target as well.

Great posts Marla!

-adam

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if the rodent isn't 100% thawed out etc

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Pre-killed even - I wasn't touting f/t as the only way to go and don't think I stated such (I easily use pre-killled as often as f/t in the larger sizes of rats since we have yet to get a stand-alone freezer to house sufficient quantities).

Just trying to get the point across that there was a risk which seemed like pulling teeth. Yeah theres a risk.

You made a very good argument for the positive aspects and practicality of feeding live and I think everyone conceded those points and the whole thing has been discussed very amiably. I think most here would agree most of the bite injuries sustained occur on strike (mis-strike even if you will) and result in non-life-threatening or minor injuries such as I saw on the two young burms yesterday - the horrific pictures of multiply GNAWED snakes we see CLEARLY happened over a period of time whether that be 20 minutes or 24 hours and could NOT have happened given proper supervision. A nip from a mouse isnt going to result in those GINSU injuries, but a nip from a mouse can also happen quite fast on initial reaction from the mouse (soon enough it is struggling to BREATHE instead of using its mouth as a weapon) and can happen before any sort of intervention can take place unless you have your hands hovering so close as to be impractical for feeding. Is it common? No. Can is happen? Sure.

Just wanted to make sure anyone who wasn't ready to reach their own conclusion based on experience (personal or shared) knew that there was in fact a risk. What amount of risk is acceptable in something refered to as safe is far too debatable no matter how broadly applicable such a debate could be made to apply to "the changing world we live in"*.


*
(Sorry I love that phrase . . as if there were any other kind!)



I appreciate your responses - honestly. In reference to dealing with those impressive numbers, how many folks do you have help with the feeding activities - or do you have it scheduled across days?

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

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Originally Posted by Marla

I could be wrong, though, who knows?

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Exactly, and so could I. The debate really is philosophical. I often wonder if rodents (being natural prey items in nature) have some internal mechanism to deal with being captured and killed. Like some sort of sensory detachment to cope with their designed fate.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Smaller prey items wouldn't have made it easier for her to hit them or get the angle right, I don't think.

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Good point .. too small would be a bad target as well.

Great posts Marla!

-adam

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Thanks for a good discussion, Adam. As they say, there's no wrong way to eat a Reese's and there's certainly more than one workable approach to keeping any kind of animal.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Just trying to get the point across that there was a risk which seemed like pulling teeth. Yeah there's a risk.

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I think this was a little more painful than pulling teeth at times ... but a lot more fun!! :lol:

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Just wanted to make sure anyone who wasn't ready to reach their own conclusion based on experience (personal or shared) knew that there was in fact a risk. What amount of risk is acceptable in something refered to as safe is far too debatable no matter how broadly applicable such a debate could be made to apply to "the changing world we live in"*.

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I think any resonably intelligent person can conclude that mouse plus snake in a box has some type of chance of getting ugly one way or the other, don't you? I just wanted to make sure people understood that there are safe ways to feed live, just like there are safe ways to feed frozen (thawing for instance ... LOL).

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

I appreciate your responses - honestly. In reference to dealing with those impressive numbers, how many folks do you have help with the feeding activities - or do you have it scheduled across days?

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LOL ... help? I wish ... I feed everyone myself, every Monday. Doesn't take as long as you think. Filling out the record cards of who ate what takes much longer. Now if I had to dangle 200 rodents on tongs ... then that would take some time. :D

Cleaning is another story (although no help there either), most of my time goes into cleaning the babies, they are the messiest.

-adam

Ok here it goes
(You all knew it would come sooner or later..Lol)
As many of you know Rusty Reptiles always feeds frozen thawed or pre- killed prey.
I wanted to add before I get into this that I love to see a good debate, I respect and like what everyone has posted (whether I believe in it or not). So be it
Let me also say to his, his own. Do what works best for you. But there are a couple of notes I would like to make.
Someone stated that it would take longer to feed off prekilled prey to over 100 animals then feeding live prey.
I beg to differ, as the number of animals’ changes drastically on a weekly basis I must say that we have at least 100 animals here daily. We feed pre killed prey for many reasons (Like to hear it, here it goes):
1) It is allot easier for us to drop in a dead mouse on to a cleaned hide box top then to sit there and watch to ensure the mouse is killed and digested properly. That would just take way to long. Adam I do believe it was you who mentioned having to sit and wiggle the mouse with hemostats to entice the snake, 99% of our animals will eat it still, the ones that do not are usually the arboreal species such as the GTP’s ATB’s and carpet species. They will normally take it within seconds of “dangling� the prey item.
2) I feel (and has been scientifically proven) that not all snakes in the wild will actually catch the first prey they are aiming for. They do get away, but in captivity your herps are kept in boxes so be it they can be as nice and as big as possible but if you face the facts it is still a box. The prey doesn’t have a chance to escape as they do in the wild, Thus my point being that it is in no way a “natural� way to feed.
3) It is easier and a lower cost for us to purchase prey items in bulk. Please remember we normally have a large quantity of animals to feed and in this we have many size prey items to feed them.
4) Has a rabbit or a large rat ever bitten you? I’ll tell you it hurts I have the scars to prove it. There is no way I would subject my animals to that bite no matter what the odds are. Plus there is no way I would ever through a twenty pound live turkey in with a 250lb Burmese python. (Like stated before I do not find it natural), plus to be honest the idea of a live twenty pound turkey in my house isn’t that pleasant.
5) I wanted to comment on something someone said about parasites and the relation to freezing prey items:
ROUNDWORMS: have an indirect life cycle and require an intermediate host. Roundworms are acquired by digestion said intermediate hosts, such as amphibians, fish, rodents and marsupials
STOMACH WORMS (mostly in lizards eating ant) There is again an indirect life cycle with ants as the intermediate hosts. Many Horned Lizards are infested with these parasites.
HEPATIC WORMS: (Capillaria SP.) These parasites also have an indirect lifecycle and are acquired by ingesting the intermediate host.
FILARIAL NEMATODES: Oswaldofilaria, Foleyella, Macdonaldius) Are rarely found and rarely diagnosed properly in our herp friends. These have an indirect lifecycle and are transferred by arthropods such as ticks and mites and live in the bloodstream of the host.
CRYPTOSPORIDIA: (the keepers who know such a protozoan shudder at the thought) The life of such Protozoan is not completely known but many researchers including Dr. Klingenburg, DVM, and DR. Zyra DVM feel that infected mice can transmit the disease to snakes that eat them.
If your food sources are the intermediate hosts stated above, you should either Freeze your prey items or de-parasitize your food colonies first
There are more but that I will leave for another thread
6) Sadly here at Rusty Reptiles we have seen our fair share of abused animals, which does include a large Burmese python eaten alive, with such bad wounds he had to be euthanised. There is also Eye cap the ball python that was eaten alive by a gerbil. Luckily we received eye cap in time and had to do multiple surgeries to save her. 95% of her spine was exposed, so be it an extreme case, but not another rescue I would like to have to go through. And yes both cases were do to the negligence of the previous owners; I will not argue that fact.
But what I will say is that the above reasons are why we here feed pre killed or F/T prey.
For convenience, safety, prices, and piece of mind
Rusty

Thanks for adding ... I love a good debate too and your experience and comments are awesome!

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

1) It is allot easier for us to drop in a dead mouse on to a cleaned hide box top then to sit there and watch to ensure the mouse is killed and digested properly. That would just take way to long.

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That's all I do, I drop the LIVE rat in the box and move on. Drop, drop, drop ... but, if you'd like to come down and visit, I can show you how long it would take to do pre-killed ... LOL ... it would be a long day. Do 100% of your ball pythons eat every week?

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

Adam I do believe it was you who mentioned having to sit and wiggle the mouse with hemostats to entice the snake, 99% of our animals will eat it still, the ones that do not are usually the arboreal species such as the GTP’s ATB’s and carpet species. They will normally take it within seconds of “dangling� the prey item.

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I really thought we were only talking ball pythons here. Nothing that I have said would apply to other snakes, as many other snakes have much better natural feeding responses than ball pythons. How many of your animals are balls Rusty?

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

2) I feel (and has been scientifically proven) that not all snakes in the wild will actually catch the first prey they are aiming for. They do get away, but in captivity your herps are kept in boxes so be it they can be as nice and as big as possible but if you face the facts it is still a box. The prey doesn’t have a chance to escape as they do in the wild, Thus my point being that it is in no way a “natural� way to feed.

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Scientifically proven? Where? Do you have a study or something? I'd like to see the data? ... I never advocated that anyone should feed live because it's the "natural" way ... I personally feel that once you put a snake it a cage, you can throw all of the "natural" stuff out the door. What I did say was that the snakes "natural instinct" is to eat live. Ball pythons must be "taught" to eat dead food.

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

3) It is easier and a lower cost for us to purchase prey items in bulk. Please remember we normally have a large quantity of animals to feed and in this we have many size prey items to feed them.

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I have a large quantity too, and I pay the same price for live as I would for frozen. I guess you could call 250 rats a week "bulk" ... LOL

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

4) Has a rabbit or a large rat ever bitten you? I’ll tell you it hurts I have the scars to prove it. There is no way I would subject my animals to that bite no matter what the odds are. Plus there is no way I would ever through a twenty pound live turkey in with a 250lb Burmese python. (Like stated before I do not find it natural), plus to be honest the idea of a live twenty pound turkey in my house isn’t that pleasant.

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Again, I thought this was strictly about ball pythons. You'd never feed a large rat or rabbit or 20lb turkey to a ball. At least I'd hope not.

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

5) I wanted to comment on something someone said about parasites and the relation to freezing prey items:
ROUNDWORMS: have an indirect life cycle and require an intermediate host. Roundworms are acquired by digestion said intermediate hosts, such as amphibians, fish, rodents and marsupials
STOMACH WORMS (mostly in lizards eating ant) There is again an indirect life cycle with ants as the intermediate hosts. Many Horned Lizards are infested with these parasites.
HEPATIC WORMS: (Capillaria SP.) These parasites also have an indirect lifecycle and are acquired by ingesting the intermediate host.
FILARIAL NEMATODES: Oswaldofilaria, Foleyella, Macdonaldius) Are rarely found and rarely diagnosed properly in our herp friends. These have an indirect lifecycle and are transferred by arthropods such as ticks and mites and live in the bloodstream of the host.
CRYPTOSPORIDIA: (the keepers who know such a protozoan shudder at the thought) The life of such Protozoan is not completely known but many researchers including Dr. Klingenburg, DVM, and DR. Zyra DVM feel that infected mice can transmit the disease to snakes that eat them.
If your food sources are the intermediate hosts stated above, you should either Freeze your prey items or de-parasitize your food colonies first
There are more but that I will leave for another thread

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As I stated before Barnard & Upton have documented that freezing host animals is not 100% effective for killing amoedo-flagellates (a common parasite found in ball pythons) and now that you mention it, I know for a fact that if you email Klingenburg he will tell you the cryptosporidia most likely cannot be 100% eliminated thru freezing either (I'm a huge fan of parasitology)

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

6) Sadly here at Rusty Reptiles we have seen our fair share of abused animals, which does include a large Burmese python eaten alive, with such bad wounds he had to be euthanised. There is also Eye cap the ball python that was eaten alive by a gerbil. Luckily we received eye cap in time and had to do multiple surgeries to save her. 95% of her spine was exposed, so be it an extreme case, but not another rescue I would like to have to go through. And yes both cases were do to the negligence of the previous owners; I will not argue that fact.

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Sad, but more of an argument for advocating the punishment of the owners than for arguing against the proper feeding of live prey.

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

But what I will say is that the above reasons are why we here feed pre killed or F/T prey.
For convenience, safety, prices, and piece of mind

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Exact same reasons I feed live ... cool! :lol:

-adam

Hey Adam, I am a big fan of parasitology also. My teacher, who is a DVM, has also said that parasites cannot normally be transmitted to the snakes that eat them. The parasites are normally located in the feces, and when they are pooped out, they go through a maturation phase, and when they are picked up by another animal, be it by eating the feces or by getting it on the paws and then licking it off, then the parasites become infective. Inside the intestines, parasites aren't really in the correct stage of development to infect anything.

I, myself, feed f/t just for the fact that it is easier for me. I only have 1 snake at the moment, and it takes about 20 minutes to thaw the mouse, and then 2-3 minutes to feed her. It's great for me when Petco has sales on their mice for $0.99. So I just usually buy 15-20 of the little boogers and kill them all myself before bagging and dating them. I'm also starting 1.2 mice breeding so I will have a supply that I won't have to buy :) A 35lb bag of lab blocks doesn't cost much, so I think this will be the best option for me.

man! i never thought id start such a dispute(60 or so posts)>"i fear we have only waken up a sleeping giant!"(or something like that>from pearl harbor). The reason why i choose to feed p/k is that when i use to feed live I'd put my snake in with the food and literally see the food go up the bps nose and sniff it and im just worried that the next time it wont be just a sniff it will also involve a bite! so that is my reason i chose to feed p/k

Hey Becky! ... Thanks for the scoop. Do you have a text book that references that or was it just from your teacher? I'm always looking for good refernces to help debunk the myths that are out there.

I love those Petco $.99 mouse sales too. I usually only pay $.50 per mouse from my breeder (i buy them in bulk) but sometimes he is short or I need extra and if Petco is having their mouse sale it's awesome!

Nothing wrong at all with feeding frozen ... sounds like you have a great system worked out for you and your girl!

Thanks again for the info!

-adam

Hi Adam, I will say that upon reading this whole thread I think in my head I turned it to all of our herps instead of just our bp's. I agree with you, that bp's are more then likely to eat live over dead. In our experience with the bp's that we have rescued and adopted out (approx 260 total (would have to check our records for exact numbers) we have been lucky that they all take to eating pre killed prey very quickly. On a side note we have 1.3.0 Bp's in house now.

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Sad, but more of an argument for advocating the punishment of the owners than for arguing against the proper feeding of live prey.

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I agree, the reason I stated the above was to give everyone another reason why we choose to feed pre killed. I have seen what happens when you drop a live mouse into a snakes cage and walk away, even if you come back a few minutes later, there is still the possibilty of a bite wound and to be honest we have enough vet bills then to produce more reason to visit our DVM.
Like I said I love a debate, and I think everyone has good points, even if they go against mine. To his, his own, we choose to do what we do and I stated why above.
As for the freezing of parasites, our DVM and the many doctors both my husband and I have worked for in the past agree. So that's what we choose to do.
Also a note on the natural ideas that I stated above, I know you in general (Adam) had not brought it up. I chose to add it as a general thought due to our ideas and ethics.
Thanks
Rusty

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Originally Posted by sk8er4life

man! i never thought id start such a dispute(60 or so posts)>"i fear we have only waken up a sleeping giant!"(or something like that>from pearl harbor). The reason why i choose to feed p/k is that when i use to feed live I'd put my snake in with the food and literally see the food go up the bps nose and sniff it and im just worried that the next time it wont be just a sniff it will also involve a bite! so that is my reason i chose to feed p/k

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I don't think it's a dispute, just a passionate discussion amoung some very smart people and me ... LOL

That's awesome that PK works for you and your snake! When you did feed live did your snake eventually eat the food? i mean after the sniffing was over? Also, was your snake ever bitten? just being curious is all.

-adam

(Not to be off subject) Sorry:(
Adam, I just looked over your site, you have many beautiful bp's. I have never been that much of a breeder as we do mostly rescue / rehabilitation work, but it is nice to see a responsible breeder. Daytona must have been fun, sadly we had a full house and my husband and I were unable to go down.
OK Now back to the subject at hand....

yea she always eats the food never has turned down any type(altho never tried f/t>dont have any down here),no it wasnt ever bitten but i was startin to worry since they would usually come head to head and there noses were actually touching each other so i got paranoid and now i feed p/k

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

In our experience with the bp's that we have rescued and adopted out (approx 260 total (would have to check our records for exact numbers) we have been lucky that they all take to eating pre killed prey very quickly. On a side note we have 1.3.0 Bp's in house now.

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Did they (the 260) and do they (the 1.3) eat FT every week (barring sheds)?

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

As for the freezing of parasites, our DVM and the many doctors both my husband and I have worked for in the past agree. So that's what we choose to do.

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I'd really be interested in more information on this topic. Maybe your DVM or some of the doctors you and your husband have worked with has a reference to a study or text showing this to be true? Unless they were talking about snake mites or external parasites? But as i stated above, if your rats have snake mites you have bigger problems than freezing can fix. LOL

-adam

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Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles

(Not to be off subject) Sorry:(
Adam, I just looked over your site, you have many beautiful bp's. I have never been that much of a breeder as we do mostly rescue / rehabilitation work, but it is nice to see a responsible breeder. Daytona must have been fun, sadly we had a full house and my husband and I were unable to go down.
OK Now back to the subject at hand....

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No problem ... thanks for the nice words. I've rehabed a ton of ball pythons over the last 15 years or so, so I can really appreciate what you guys do!

Daytona is a blast every year. It's always hard to find help to "mind the store" while I'm gone, but it really is worth the trip if you're into herps.

Thanks again! :D

-adam

The parasites that we are "supposedly" freezing off are usually host-specific, especially if they are external parasites (ie:mites). I will ask my teacher more about this and see if I can get it cleared up. From what I learned in parasitology though, most parasites are host-specific, meaning they can only live on that specific animal. Pet store rats have the parasites associated with being kept in dirty conditions with too many animals in one enclosure. If one has it, they will all get it. The majority of them have tapeworms, pinworms and coccidia. These are all zoonotic(transferable to us) but I don't think any of us have the habit of licking mouse bottoms... :)

There are some parasites that have an intermediate host. Some of those include rodents, earthworms, frogs, bugs, etc. I'm not going to get into a parasitology lesson, but most of those parasites that actually have to have an intermediate host are the pretty serious ones (lung flukes, liver flukes, etc) Nasty buggers.

Adam, I will try to get a more definitive answer from my teacher, and hopefully some sources. I will also try to find my parasitology book and maybe get some pictures scanned of the contents. Hopefully that will help.

Becky, you rock! ... Thank you.

I think the "freeze your rodents to kill parasites" myth comes from trying to get rid of snake mites ... It's the only way it makes sense to me. And if your rodent supplier has snake mites on his rats .... don't freeze them, find a new rodent supplier ... LOL

-adam

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Originally Posted by sk8er4life

yea she always eats the food never has turned down any type(altho never tried f/t(dont have any down here)

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Well, the thing about f/t is if you can't buy them already frozen, you can always freeze them yourself, lol. :)


I'd just like to say that this could quite possibly have been one of the most informative and useful topics I've read in my short time visiting these forums. I've learned so much, and now have a new outlook on feeding live thanks to Mr. Wysocki. :) I'll still be feeding my snakes frozen thawed whenever I can, but I don't think I'll be so quick to jump on someone who feeds live anymore. This has been a great discussion/debate, and hopefully there'll be many more posts to read in this topic when I come on later.

I guess the only setback was the fact that it took me literally an hour to read all 70+ replies in this topic, lol. Lots of distractions though. Darn tv. :)

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Originally Posted by Cody

but I don't think I'll be so quick to jump on someone who feeds live anymore.

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Excellent .... This post made all of that typing worth it.

A great man once said "You have to free your mind Neo" .... As I said earlier, I would never advocate one method of feeding as being better than others. I just wanted people to see the truth ... that if you're responsible and love your animals, there is nothing wrong with live feeding. (can ya tell that i'm a huge Matrix fan ... lol)

Oh and ya gotta drop the "Mr. Wysocki" thing ... I was looking to see if my dad posted on this thread .... "adam" or "dork" works! :P

-adam

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I think you only need to see the damage a mouse or rat can do one time before you realize that feeding live prey is just not worth the risk.

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Smynx said it best. My friend's adult BCI has horrible scarring on her face and neck, from being fed live. I guess she started constricting the rat, and it was biting her, and the former owners could not pry the rat out of her grasp; trying to do so only made her coil tighter and get more messed up. I really gotta get a pic of that scarring, it is horrible.
I think that feeding live is like riding in a car without your seatbelt; maybe nothing will happen, but if something bad does, it'll be too late for you to do anything about it while it's happening.

Dont Know how I missed this thread !! Ok I have a small collection of ball pythons 32, Have been keeping and breeding reptiles of all sorts from the age of 7 now 28 and still do
I notice an insinuation that ball pythons being fed frozen or fresh killed dont eat as well as those being fed live ..out of the 32 I currently have including breeding males 0 of them are off feed, males are pulled from the females cage 2 days a week and are fed. I feed all the tubs once seperated come back 30 mins later to insure thet every one has eaten and I wont have a rotting food item in the tub or cage, I dont have to dangle the food item to get a feeding responce ... most times its hit and coiled before reaching the cage floor
Now back to the earlier days of snake keeping .. I have seen a good many feeding go wrong and have had several snakes get chewed on, its not a fun thing to have happen or watch, through those experiences I chose to feed frozen thawed . I feel it is safer for the animal
These are just my experiences and opinions

Ginevive, I almost used the seatbelt analogy the other day. That's exactly what it is like.

Robert, I feed 4 BPs every week (Smulkin feeds the other 3), and I've had the same experience you have. Usually they hit and coil immediately. Every once in while one might take 10 to 20 seconds to strike, and usually if it takes any longer than that, they're not going to eat anyway (usually either because they're getting ready to shed or because it's an adult that has gone off feed).

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

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I think you only need to see the damage a mouse or rat can do one time before you realize that feeding live prey is just not worth the risk.

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Smynx said it best. My friend's adult BCI has horrible scarring on her face and neck, from being fed live. I guess she started constricting the rat, and it was biting her, and the former owners could not pry the rat out of her grasp; trying to do so only made her coil tighter and get more messed up. I really gotta get a pic of that scarring, it is horrible.
I think that feeding live is like riding in a car without your seatbelt; maybe nothing will happen, but if something bad does, it'll be too late for you to do anything about it while it's happening.

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So we should all take the bus instead of ride in cars? It's a nice idea, but not what happens in reality.

I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

-adam

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Originally Posted by RobertCoombs

Dont Know how I missed this thread !! Ok I have a small collection of ball pythons 32, Have been keeping and breeding reptiles of all sorts from the age of 7 now 28 and still do
I notice an insinuation that ball pythons being fed frozen or fresh killed dont eat as well as those being fed live ..out of the 32 I currently have including breeding males 0 of them are off feed, males are pulled from the females cage 2 days a week and are fed. I feed all the tubs once seperated come back 30 mins later to insure thet every one has eaten and I wont have a rotting food item in the tub or cage, I dont have to dangle the food item to get a feeding responce ... most times its hit and coiled before reaching the cage floor
Now back to the earlier days of snake keeping .. I have seen a good many feeding go wrong and have had several snakes get chewed on, its not a fun thing to have happen or watch, through those experiences I chose to feed frozen thawed . I feel it is safer for the animal
These are just my experiences and opinions

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Robert, were all of these animals such good eaters on frozen from day one?

Also, how many is "a good many" and were they all ball pythons. Putting some kind of numbers behind this and then determining the statistical likely hood of a bite from a live feeding might help people understand my point a little better.

Thank you for sharing Robert, I really appreciate your experience and input to this topic.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

So we should all take the bus instead of ride in cars? It's a nice idea, but not what happens in reality.

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No one said anything about taking a bus. The analogy was that feeding live is like riding in a car without a seatbelt on. Statistically, chances may be low that you'll be involved in a serious accident, but in the off chance that you are, wouldn't you rather be wearing the seatbelt?

Quite frankly, Adam, I'm surprised you're still arguing this. Plenty of people here have described injuries they have seen first-hand, most of which were not from unsupervised feedings. You talk about being responsible, yet you say you just drop in the live mouse and walk away. You say that feeding frozen/thawed would take up too much time, yet if you actually supervised your feedings it would take up just as much if not more time than feeding frozen/thawed. Rusty described how she can drop in a dead prey item and walk away with total peace of mind.

Personally, I prefer a breeder that starts snakes off on frozen/thawed prey. It makes for much less picky eaters. All the snakes I have that have had nothing but frozen/thawed food are excellent eaters and have never missed a feeding unless their eyes were clouded over during a shed.

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Originally Posted by Smynx

No one said anything about taking a bus. The analogy was that feeding live is like riding in a car without a seatbelt on. Statistically, chances may be low that you'll be involved in a serious accident, but in the off chance that you are, wouldn't you rather be wearing the seatbelt?

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I also know of two people that were driving cars, got into accidents and were impaled on their steering column because they were wearing a seatbelt. If they had not had the seatbelt on, they would have been thrown thru the windshiled and more than likely lived according to the investigating officers.

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Originally Posted by Smynx

Quite frankly, Adam, I'm surprised you're still arguing this. Plenty of people here have described injuries they have seen first-hand, most of which were not from unsupervised feedings.

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I'm not arguing anything. I thought this was a discussion?? I am just freely contributing my thoughts as other people continue to post. I will not stop because I know what I say to be true. From experience .... a lot of it.

Less than a dozen stories of bites on this thread (none fatal, one that needed vet care) vs. my 10,000 successful live feedings a year for the past 10 years should sway me? LOL ... A captive ball python has a chance of being burnt up in a house fire. Thru my rescue work, I've worked with at least a dozen ... does that make keeping a ball python in a house unsafe?

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Originally Posted by Smynx

You talk about being responsible, yet you say you just drop in the live mouse and walk away.

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And I come back and check on each one in an hour or so. What's not responsible about that? I haven't had a single snake bitten in 10 years. I must be doing something right? Or are you going to tell me that I am just lucky? ... LOL

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Originally Posted by Smynx

You say that feeding frozen/thawed would take up too much time, yet if you actually supervised your feedings it would take up just as much if not more time than feeding frozen/thawed. Rusty described how she can drop in a dead prey item and walk away with total peace of mind.

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Rusty is feeding 4 ball pythons. I am feeding 200. Wanna come over and have a race? :D Live feeding is faster. Call any large scale ball python breeder and see what method they prefer and why.

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Originally Posted by Smynx

Personally, I prefer a breeder that starts snakes off on frozen/thawed prey. It makes for much less picky eaters. All the snakes I have that have had nothing but frozen/thawed food are excellent eaters and have never missed a feeding unless their eyes were clouded over during a shed.

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For my customers that request it, I gladly switch their babies over to PK or FT. In ten years I've never had a customer complain about a problem feeder (or anything else for that matter) and my reviews and reputation are excellent. If you'd like some references I'd be glad to supply them so you can see for yourself. The animals that I sell are PERFECT in every way!

You seem to be wanting to make this out to be that I am "anti" FT or PK and nothing can be further from the truth. Unlike a lot of people it seems, I beleive that ANY way you choose to feed your snake is fine as long as you are being responsible and the snake is eating and healthy.

-adam

I know that picture has been around for years. And I know it was left in for a week, but still, lots of people don't think to check back on the snake, assuming its eaten, till tey suspect its been fully digested (48hrs) and go to hold it, and their snake looks like that.

On another forum, there was a thread about this lady's sons Ball Pythons. She had never wanted to touch the snake, so evidentaly she didn't know much about them. Her son went off for the night, and asked her to feed the snake. Well, she put a live rat in there(small), and no knowingly, left it over night. Next morning she was suprised to see what had happened to her sons snake, and she knew it was her fault. She decided then that she started the troubles for the snake, and she was going to fix them. So she took the snake to the vet, and got 30 stitches, yes 30 stitches from one night. The snake would never eat again. The last time she posted was nine months after the snake tragedy began, and the snake would still not eat, so I beleive she took it to the vet. That is the last we heard from her (it was like 5 months ago), and she never posted the outcome of the poor Ball Python.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonBabe448

I know that picture has been around for years. And I know it was left in for a week, but still, lots of people don't think to check back on the snake, assuming its eaten, till tey suspect its been fully digested (48hrs) and go to hold it, and their snake looks like that.

On another forum, there was a thread about this lady's sons Ball Pythons. She had never wanted to touch the snake, so evidentaly she didn't know much about them. Her son went off for the night, and asked her to feed the snake. Well, she put a live rat in there(small), and no knowingly, left it over night. Next morning she was suprised to see what had happened to her sons snake, and she knew it was her fault. She decided then that she started the troubles for the snake, and she was going to fix them. So she took the snake to the vet, and got 30 stitches, yes 30 stitches from one night. The snake would never eat again. The last time she posted was nine months after the snake tragedy began, and the snake would still not eat, so I beleive she took it to the vet. That is the last we heard from her (it was like 5 months ago), and she never posted the outcome of the poor Ball Python.

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Did you know that if you left a frozen thawed or pre-killed rat in the cage with your snake for a week, that it could make your snake very ill or even kill it?

The bacteria that would fester within and on the rat in the warm conditions of a ball python enclosure could contaminate the water bowl and eventually the snake.

Lack of common sense and irresponsible ownership can be unsafe no matter how you choose to feed your snake.

-adam

Yes, and that can also happen if p00 is left in the cage for more than 24 hours after noticing it.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonBabe448

Yes, and that can also happen if p00 is left in the cage for more than 24 hours after noticing it.

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So you'd agree that it's not really live feeding, but irresponsible/careless ownership that's not safe for a ball python?

If so, I'd have to agree with you 100% on that one!

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

-adam

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if you look in the ball python care sheet on this site, in the feeding section, you will see this

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Try your best to get your ball python on pre-killed food items. Live rodents can become very violent towards your snake, and cause massive amount of harm. Rats are very dangerous food items, and within seconds could tear your snake apart. No matter how closely you watch your snake, you would not be fast enough to prevent a sudden bite. Click the link below to see an example of what can happen when a keeper feeds live rodents. It is very gruesome, and something you might not want to see.

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then under that you will see this link


http://ball-pythons.net/careimages/ballchew2.jpg


GRAPHIC IMAGE




so, even if you are watching it, then a rat can go to work pretty fast


im not saying that that particular incident happened under surpervision or not. it doesnt say.


it could


why risk it?

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Originally Posted by Royal-y__Great

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

-adam

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if you look in the ball python care sheet on this site, in the feeding section, you will see this

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Try your best to get your ball python on pre-killed food items. Live rodents can become very violent towards your snake, and cause massive amount of harm. Rats are very dangerous food items, and within seconds could tear your snake apart. No matter how closely you watch your snake, you would not be fast enough to prevent a sudden bite. Click the link below to see an example of what can happen when a keeper feeds live rodents. It is very gruesome, and something you might not want to see.

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then under that you will see this link


http://ball-pythons.net/careimages/ballchew2.jpg


GRAPHIC IMAGE




so, even if you are watching it, then a rat can go to work pretty fast


im not saying that that particular incident happened under surpervision or not. it doesnt say.


it could


why risk it?

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That was certainly not from a supervised feeding. That was from a live rat left in with a ball python for way tooo long. Same thing can happen (ie ball python getting sick or killed) if you leave a PK or FT rat in way tooo long. That picture only offers evidence that there is risk in being a careless keeper, not that there is risk in feeding your ball python live food.

So, I ask again ... I'd really like to see pics of a "ball python" with that kind of scaring from a single supervised feeding attempt.

Why do you assume there is risk? Because a care sheet told you so? Do you even know who wrote the care sheet and what their actual experience is working with p. regius?

-adam

first off.


why the quotation marks around ball python?


and how do you know for a fact that it was left unsurpervised for way too long? it doesnt say that.

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if you leave a PK or FT rat in way tooo long

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how does a rat thats dead do scars like that?


why do i assume theres risk? theres evidence showing us that theres risk from experiences. duh

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Originally Posted by Royal-y__Great

first off.


why the quotation marks around ball python?

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Because others in the thread started talking about other snakes. The basis of my experience is ball pythons and this thread started off talking about ball pythons. The quotes were a reminder.

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Originally Posted by Royal-y__Great

and how do you know for a fact that it was left unsurpervised for way too long? it doesnt say that.

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Because over the past 15 years I have rescued snakes in that condition and talked with owners about how they've gotten that way. I have also done tens of thousands of live feedings leaving rats in with snakes any where from 1 minute to as much as 12 hours. I have a strong base of experience which allows me to reasonably determine the time that a rat needs to do that much damage to a snake.

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Originally Posted by Royal-y__Great

how does a rat thats dead do scars like that?

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I never said scars or bites. I was specific when I said sick or dead. Please re-read my posts. A dead rodent begins to decay at a rapid rate in a warm humid enclosure like a ball python cage. The bacteria that rapidly develops over the course of a few days or even a week could be spread to the snakes water bowl by the natural action of the snake exploring it's take. Transferrance of the bacteria to the snake is then elementary. That kind of contamination if ingested could turn systemic and kill a ball python.

Not to mention the mold that will also develop cause respiratory problems and possibly death as well.

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Originally Posted by Royal-y__Great

why do i assume there's risk? there's evidence showing us that there's risk from experiences. duh

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Whose experiences? I'll say it again ... I've been feeding about 10,000 live meals a year for the last ten years to ball pythons and have never had a bite. Certainly not my experiences.

What evidence are you talking about? That picture above? You actually believe that was from a rat left with a ball pythong for an hour while the owner was observing?

I've heard all of the stories and seen all of the GRAPHIC IMAGES on the net (i've been around for a very long time) ... I don't consider them evidence of responsible live feedings in any way ... There were a couple of specific examples of ball pythons being bit while eating live rodents on this thread but when you compare them with the many many live feedings that are being done with success, there is just as much of a chance that your ball python could be injured by a surged heat source, a respiratory infection, tail closed in a cage top, or even a not completely thawed rodent.

And was the "duh" really necessary? Everyone on this thread has done so well treating this as a discussion of differing opinions and treating each other with respect. I think to start insulting people at this point is really uncalled for.

-adam

I once watched a rat get wacked into a wall by my manager's daughter, well, it didn't die. I almost knocked HER out.... and I think I could have, considering I probaly outweighed her by 100 punds... (im 16 shes nearly 30 so it wasnt like I wanted t knw out a little girl and I was like 50 lol)

She prceded to try and kill the rat by picking it up by the tail and then trowing it t the ground... I quit a few days later...

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Originally Posted by NomadOfTheHills

I once watched a rat get wacked into a wall by my manager's daughter, well, it didn't die. I almost knocked HER out.... and I think I could have, considering I probaly outweighed her by 100 punds... (im 16 shes nearly 30 so it wasnt like I wanted t knw out a little girl and I was like 50 lol)

She prceded to try and kill the rat by picking it up by the tail and then trowing it t the ground... I quit a few days later...

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I'm not a big fan of "whacking" in order to dispatch live rodents. Fortunately, ball pythons are amazingly efficient at killing their prey! It's what they're "designed" to do :D

-adam

Inarguably dead = safER than live prey for in light of all inherent risks. I think that's all that was trying to be established.

OK, once again, I remind everyone that this thread is for conversational purposes and does not need to get out of hand, should it, this thread will be locked, and any other threads that may try to continue this subject after that will also be locked or deleted.

We all have different opinions on this subject, but lets not get personal, mean and hateful toward eachother.


I think what is important here to remember is this:

yes , you have many feedings experiences based on your numbers (those of us who have many snakes), but you must also consider this is only one forum, and we are not hearing about more bad experiences that have occured out there in other sites where they have been mentioned and it is impossible to gather the data unless you went to x amount of other sites and polled x amount of people from those sites, added all the #'s for live feedings with injuries and #'s of live feedings without injuries. Then you would likely get a "scientific" or "statistical" count on the reality of live feeding issues. I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit. Meaning- there is a possibility. Some of you may wish to aknowledge this fact, some may not.. all in all, in the end, it is your personal choice and should something happen to anyones snakes it would be on that persons conscience and haunt only them..hopefully, whoever it is, they will learn from that lesson and make changes.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit.

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How do you figure 50/50? There is no data anywhere to even remotely suggest that it could be this high. The small sample on this thread indicates about a 10 in 100,000 (thats being generous with the data provided) or .01% chance when dealing with p regius. I think even taking into account numbers that could potentially be gathered from other sources, when compared to actual live feedings done by breeders who have collections numbering higher than 500 and produce hundreds of babies a year the number could actually get lower.

I would put this number right in line with the same chance of a snake getting a URI, stomatis, or skin blisters. All are tragedies that certainly CAN happen, but definitely WILL NOT under the proper care and supervision.

It would be ashame to see this thread get locked ... I think the discussion is valuable and given the 50 or so supportive emails I've gotten, pretty popular.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Inarguably dead = safER than live prey for in light of all inherent risks. I think that's all that was trying to be established.

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I think that statment is debatable (i really don't like the word arguable) as we've seen. No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I personally think, "scientifically" or "statistically" whatever you want to call it, you will find it is a 50/50 percent chance that your snake may or may not get bit.

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where the heck did you get that #? 50/50?!? thats insanley wrong. ive fed live for about 3 months now without incident, and this is my first sanke so you cant really say im an experienced keeper, although i do keep an eye on him at all times tongs in hand.

You know .. this thread has gone for 5 days without incident, but now it seems to be treading over the edge. I will remind everone right now that it is not necessary to tell someone that they are wrong. If you have a differing opinion, you can find a way to expalin it without telling the person/person's that you quoted they are "insanely wrong". If this just degenerates into a flame fest, it will be locked and moved. I, for one, do not want to see that. This has been a pretty good discussion on a very important area of herp keeping.


The only thing i will add to this thread is: There's always more than two ways to skin a cat ... er ... a rat :)

im not trying to flame, its just the truth. based on my experience at least.

Howdy all, I must say first having been a member for quite some time I am very impressed and pleased to see this thread staying remarkably civil I remember in the past stuff went downhill fast but I digress.

My Ball Python Bob who is about 2-3 years old is one of the "picky" eaters you hear about. I feed him live as well as my Boa (Jay) and my carpet (Berber). Mondays are feeding day and I feed them one at a time with a long set of BBQ tongs at the ready just in case. Fortunately Jay and Berber tend to hit coil and eat fairly quickly, Bob on the other hand has to have everything perfect before he will strike I have met less finicky cats and small children lol.

Needless to say I have experimented with Bob using both FT and FK and he ate frozen once that was it. My major rule with my guys is I do not walk away from the tank/enclosure until the rodent is dead. I even had him on gerbils for a while I remember even having a big debate on this site about it. Bottom line is I am safe with my snakes and as it was stated whatever works best for you and your animal is what you should do.

When I first got Bob he was my first reptile I had no clue only what I had seen on TV and read in some publications I found this site met some great folks and learned a ton I have always followed a good rule of thumb listen and absorb all the info and use what works best for you.

Ok I'll get off my soapbox now lol :D

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Robert, were all of these animals such good eaters on frozen from day one?

Also, how many is "a good many" and were they all ball pythons. Putting some kind of numbers behind this and then determining the statistical likely hood of a bite from a live feeding might help people understand my point a little better.

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Adam no not all of them were good feeders on f/t from day one but I have had no problem switching animals within a few feedings from fresh killed to frozen thawed
A good many is in the neiborhood of 10-15 times in my own collection and Ive seen it happen in others collections as well probly 4-5 times (imo one time is to many) the worst I saw was a BCI and a large rat at a pet shop the boa over shot his aim hung the rat with its bottom jaw and coiled any way the rat the proceded to( front end completly free) knaw away at the boa lot of blood and deep mouth wounds this was in seconds of the rat being dropped in to the cage ..shop keeper standing by quiclky reacted but there was more damage done allready than I would want to deal with in my own collection
No they werent all ball pythons (but when does chance pick a species)
I feed frozen because it works for me and I feel better about doing so