Is it legal to walk around outside with your snake?

Sorry.
That's fine and I agree. But no need to attack people, you know?
If you just state your opinion, and someone else states theirs that doesn't align with yours, well...let the person who is looking for an answer decide for themselves. Which frankly is what you did by asking what Sonny what they meant. But other's didn't, and as you pointed out, it wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing happens on this site.

I've noticed this forum can get a bit intense compared to others I'm on. I think a lot of it is just the product of explaining the same things a hundred times honestly. BPs are so commonly bought as starter or throw-away pets with no research it's easy to get irritated when maybe you shouldn't, because for every person doing research and doing what they should, there are ten more who aren't being responsible and ignore advice.

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Originally Posted by EMSPrincess

No, not right. I am not talking about the personal choices people make with their pets. I talking about what seems to be the good number of people on here who are straight up rude, sarcastic, and demeaning to each other.
There is no reason to be mean when you can voice the exact same opinion in a kind way that communicates to the same depth the first method did. Especially to someone like the OP who had a honest question about the legal (not societal) ramifications of taking a snake outside.
Sonny even tried to call a truce and DVirginianna ignored it.
And then (Sonny to DVirginianna), "Sorry to say this, but you think an experienced keeper would be aware of these things." DVirginianna was asking your opinion out of curiosity, Sonny. They honestly wanted to know. And you felt the need to call them inadequate at what they do.
You, Skiploder, attacked my comment for no reason, and with the shoes statement, implied I'm some sort of materialistic air-head (thank you for that, it's really hard to find a girl who likes both snakes and shoes these days).
Albert Clark wrote "Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet." Albert...they know the difference. No need to put them down for voicing their opinion.
Diagga went at someone and called them selfish. No, they are not selfish. They are proud of their beautiful snake. Who wouldn't be?
None of these things actually addressed the OP's comment.
Please, be a little more kind.

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All of the discussion addressed the OP's comment. It's a monumentally BAD idea to take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal snake and sashay it around in public. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the natural history and needs of the snake. It has no benefit to the animal.

It is a bad idea because it defies the fundamental principle that as a keeper of an exotic pet, you should do everything in your power to provide a stress free healthy environment for your charge.

If someone holds the opinion that this is a "good" idea or a practice that should be performed, than they are MISINFORMED, and their opinion is devalued on this subject. In fact, I would hesitate to even hold this notion in high enough regard to call it an "opinion". An opinion should be based - to some degree - on fact.

Daigga's comment was spot on. If a person is so proud of something that they cease to consider it's well being in favor of showing it off, then they stride across the definition of "pride" and into "selfish". That person is doing something in the name of vanity that causes immeasurable stress to the animal. Inexcusable.

I watch people do a lot of stupid things. Many of these things are not intentional. Many of these things people new to the hobby would not intuitively understand.

This is not one of those things.

Please, be a little more kind to your snake. Your pride is no excuse to stress these animals. No one elected any of you to be an ambassador for this hobby.

Geeze I'm nervous to take my snakes in the front yard where someone may see, much less a park or public place.

I do take my snakes outside in my backyard that has a high privacy fence. The less my neighbors know the better.

Why do I do it? Because I want to. For me part of owning an animal is being to able to interact with it and I have for that reason chose species that generally accept handling.

If you want to educate the public, than join a group that does that sort of things, don't force it onto people. In my area there is a local reptile group that goes to schools and has a booth at the county fair to help educate people about reptiles.

As for taking animals outside, I see no issue with it within reason. I don't take my leopard geckos outside because they are nocturnal and have sensitive eyes. The snakes on the other hand seem to do fine. Only my boa seems to "like" going outside. I still have perfect sheds and perfect feeding habits. I won't lie to myself and say I do it for them. I do it because I enjoy it and find it relaxing. The snakes are fine, I'm happy and no harm is done.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

All of the discussion addressed the OP's comment. It's a monumentally BAD idea to take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal snake and sashay it around in public. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the natural history and needs of the snake. It has no benefit to the animal.

It is a bad idea because it defies the fundamental principle that as a keeper of an exotic pet, you should do everything in your power to provide a stress free healthy environment for your charge.

If someone holds the opinion that this is a "good" idea or a practice that should be performed, than they are MISINFORMED, and their opinion is devalued on this subject. In fact, I would hesitate to even hold this notion in high enough regard to call it an "opinion". An opinion should be based - to some degree - on fact.

Daigga's comment was spot on. If a person is so proud of something that they cease to consider it's well being in favor of showing it off, then they stride across the definition of "pride" and into "selfish". That person is doing something in the name of vanity that causes immeasurable stress to the animal. Inexcusable.

I watch people do a lot of stupid things. Many of these things are not intentional. Many of these things people new to the hobby would not intuitively understand.

This is not one of those things.

Please, be a little more kind to your snake. Your pride is no excuse to stress these animals. No one elected any of you to be an ambassador for this hobby.

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Again, the OP's question was regarding the LEGAL ramifications of taking a snake outside, not the PERSONAL or SOCIETAL consequences of doing so. Perhaps a new thread needed to be started to address these two separate issues.
I have yet to state whether I take my own snakes outside, in public, in the house, around my shoulders, to the store - heck, let's just throw a rocket trip to the moon in there. I have yet to state my own actions with my own snakes.
Of course no one is an ambassador to the hobby, that is why it is so important to allow everyone to voice their own opinions and accept those opinions as important and respect them, even if you don't deem them valid.

Yeah, but I feel like the logical next-step to the question of CAN you take a snake outside without being arrested is SHOULD you. I feel like one kind of needs to be addressed if you talk about the other.

Disturbing the peace in the wonderful state of Utah in the good ole USA. Mind you if someone pushes the issue.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I would like to disagree with both of you. How you raise and take care of your snakes is your own business. My snake personally loves going out, meeting new people and sight seeing. Yes there are people who don't like snakes, and if they are respectful human beings, they will remove themselves from the situation. I've taken my Vraska on walks for as long as I've had her. Never ever had an issue with her being sick or stressed. Raising a snake is much like raising a child, so don't call one's way of raising "irresponsible" just because it doesn't fit your standards. Thanks

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I'm just curious how you KNOW that your snake "loves" going out?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I'm just curious how you KNOW that your snake "loves" going out?

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Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.

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... You could give us a list of behaviors that indicate a lack of stress in ball pythons that your snake performs when you take it outside. These do not change from individual to individual.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.

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That really didn't answer my question though. What behavior is she doing, that informs you that she LOVES being out and about with you? There's something in her behavior that makes you believe this to be true, since she can't really tell you that she loves it.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

... You could give us a list of behaviors that indicate a lack of stress in ball pythons that your snake performs when you take it outside. These do not change from individual to individual.

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She acts the same as when I have her out inside the house. She's always active and looking to explore. When meeting new people, she licks at their direction then goes straight for making a new friend by crawling over to them. When we go home and put her back in the tank, she tries to get back out for a few minutes until she gives up and goes back in her hut. She's been compared to a dog for her friendliness and others who own snakes say that she is just the most social little thing. Again, I'm not sure how to prove to all of you that she is not stressed, but she seems fine to me and in fact seems to enjoy it. I would not do anything to purposefully hurt her or put her in danger.

I'd take Vivian out, but only for short periods and places where she'd be safe , but I have no problem with her exploring my garden for a good 10-20 mins , obviously as long as I'm there (she's my precious). If I had the opportunity I would take her to school for a little show or outside for a little bit but I am honestly petrified of some hateful moron snatching her from me it killing her on the spot .

I think it's better to do it for diurnal species as there is little stress risk unlike nocturnal species such as BP's .

As long as you trust your self , your snake and the people around you it should be acceptable.

I too live in the UK and there is no law against it .

I think it would be nice to see more snakes out and about with their owners but it's up to the keeper not society , though one does have to watch out for the latter .

Stan :)


Stan:

Vivian the cornsnake
Nymeria the Het. Pied Royal
Baldrick the Piebald Royal
Larry and Lizzy the common wall lizards

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Originally Posted by jaydoncooper2

I live in the UK and want to know if its legal to walk around town with a snake haha just curious i dont do this. Is it legal in any contry?

JAYDON.

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Also I think many diurnal species that are out in the day would definitely ENJOY some new stimuli, there's only so many things to explore inside the enclosure. (considerably less so for racks).

Stan :)


Stan:

Vivian the cornsnake
Nymeria the Het. Pied Royal
Baldrick the Piebald Royal
Larry and Lizzy the common wall lizards

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

She acts the same as when I have her out inside the house. She's always active and looking to explore. When meeting new people, she licks at their direction then goes straight for making a new friend by crawling over to them. When we go home and put her back in the tank, she tries to get back out for a few minutes until she gives up and goes back in her hut. She's been compared to a dog for her friendliness and others who own snakes say that she is just the most social little thing. Again, I'm not sure how to prove to all of you that she is not stressed, but she seems fine to me and in fact seems to enjoy it. I would not do anything to purposefully hurt her or put her in danger.

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Every one of those things you just mentioned can be an indicator of stress in a ball python. They are happiest when left alone and undisturbed; they may tolerate being handled, some more than others, but this doesn't mean they like it.

You don't have to try and explain this, it is literally the same list of reasons anyone ever gives as to why their snake 'likes' something.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Every one of those things you just mentioned can be an indicator of stress in a ball python. They are happiest when left alone and undisturbed; they may tolerate being handled, some more than others, but this doesn't mean they like it.

You don't have to try and explain this, it is literally the same list of reasons anyone ever gives as to why their snake 'likes' something.

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And this is your opinion based on how your snakes act. And as you said they CAN be signs of stress based on your opinion. I will continue to raise my snake how I see fit and you do the same with yours :)

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Originally Posted by Stannos

Also I think many diurnal species that are out in the day would definitely ENJOY some new stimuli, there's only so many things to explore inside the enclosure. (considerably less so for racks).

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My theory was that it may have more to do with metabolism than whether they are diurnal or nocturnal. My garters will come out and chase me around the room (to the extent they are able to in their tanks) begging for a treat or whatever. Being fish-eaters in the wild, garters have a way faster metabolism than most other snakes and therefore an increased seeking drive, since they'd have to be out hunting for food more often in the wild. They also have the distinction of being one of the few snakes that displays much social behavior beyond mating.
I think a nocturnal species with a fast metabolism would probably show those same traits and drive to explore, just at night.

That's not to say my garters don't enjoy hiding, but they are much quicker to abandon a hide and go out looking for food than my BP.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I would venture to say that it would depend on the store. Personally, I can't think of any good reasons to have it around your neck while shopping in the first place.

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I take my largest one around my neck constantly in the summer. The smaller ones cn only wrap around my wrist and that makes me nervous. Most people either ask to see it or just veer away from me. I try to be respectful and stay away from crowds of people. Most stores dont even realize its a live snake because she stays put 95% of the time. If a store in the area says anything about it, I just make a mental note to not bring her there again. I obviously dont go to food establishments with her. Its just like walking a dog. I take her out when I have no real plans but just going out to go.

~Regards, YzGuy

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

And this is your opinion based on how your snakes act. And as you said they CAN be signs of stress based on your opinion. I will continue to raise my snake how I see fit and you do the same with yours :)

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You are anthropomorphizing your animals.

Let me rephrase: Those are signs of stress in a ball python. What do we tell new keepers their BPs should be spending most of their time doing? Hiding. If someone has a snake that is active and out and about all the time, it's actually a sign that something is probably wrong with the husbandry.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

You are anthropomorphizing your animals.

Let me rephrase: Those are signs of stress in a ball python.

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Again, let me tell you that this is your opinion. You are relying on my crappy ways of description to tell what is going on with my snake. Unless you see her in person and deem she is "stressed", I see no reason to accept your reasoning over my own. She has no problems eating, being aggressive, balling up, shedding or showing aversion to people. I'd most likely notice a change in one or some of these things if my snake was "stressed". I thank you for your opinion but you need to know that there are exceptions and that your way may not always be the right way.

Yes, I bet your BP is the only one in the whole world that actually has the emotional capacity to enjoy socialization with humans and shows stress entirely differently than the rest of her species.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Yes, I bet your BP is the only one in the whole world that actually has the emotional capacity to enjoy socialization with humans and shows stress entirely differently than the rest of her species.

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I'm not saying she's the only one ;) You just seem pretty narrow minded in that all ball pythons and snakes in general are the same, when they are not. Each snake will have its little quirks.

Yeah, but you're saying that your animal apparently displays stress in a way entirely unique to her species. I am not narrow-minded; the snakes are. There's really not a whole lot of behavioral variation there. Sure, you will have some more tolerant of handling than others, some more aggressive than others; the situations in which they express stress, aggression, or fear may be slightly different, but the actual expression of those things is going to look very similar regardless of the animal.

It's not going to kill your snake to take it outside or whatever, so I don't really care, but all the things you listed as reasons she likes it are signs of stress which, as I said, looks pretty much the same from snake to snake. If I told you my dog growls and snaps when he's happy and wants to be petted, you'd probably rely on your own understanding of dog behavior and decide I'm wrong and you don't want to pet him while he's growling and snapping at you.

Now now, play nice people. :colbert:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...52897594_n.jpg

Awful lot of people standing on soapboxes in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I'm not saying she's the only one ;) You just seem pretty narrow minded in that all ball pythons and snakes in general are the same, when they are not. Each snake will have its little quirks.

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What DVirginiana and others are trying to tell you is that ball pythons - as a species - have a set of behavioral patterns that indicate whether they are in comfort or in distress.

Many of these behavioral patterns are contradictory to what we normally perceive as comfort or distress...mainly because signs of comfort include staying hidden and signs of distress manifest as heightened awareness in their surroundings (among many others).

While each snake does indeed have it's own little quirks, ball pythons are programmed to seek cover and security during the day and feed, mate, etc. during the night.

Deviations from these ingrained and instinctual patterns result in distress. The signs of distress in snakes has been studied and documented.

So instead of arguing back and forth, are you aware of the signs of comfort and distress in snakes? If you are, can you confirm that your animal is indeed showing signs of comfort?

If not, would you be willing to learn about the signs of comfort and distress and re-evaluate your position on this?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

So instead of arguing back and forth, are you aware of the signs of comfort and distress in snakes? If you are, can you confirm that your animal is indeed showing signs of comfort?

If not, would you be willing to learn about the signs of comfort and distress and re-evaluate your position on this?

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I cannot show you over the internet just how my snake acts. I feel she is comfortable and go on that. I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter. However after having her for a year, I know this is her normal activity level outside the tank. She acts perfectly normal and looks healthy despite my taking her for walks.
Unless a certified vet corrects me, I will continue with my practices. Thank you for being understanding and not pushing your ways on us!

There's one last thing I would like to say on this topic.

If I have guests at my home, in my own private living space, I don't take my snakes out to show them.

Most people that visit me are aware of my menagerie upstairs, and if they'd like they are more than welcome to see my collection and setup. However, I am not going to remove a snake from it's environment and bring it downstairs (where the temperature is usually about 10 degrees cooler) just to show it off. I remember being a kid at a friends house watching TV, and their older brother just straight up came into the room and sat down with a snake; no comments, no questions, just came in with a snake. People like this are only looking to get a reaction, which is not why I have snakes.

I believe in respecting people as well as keeping my snakes as healthy as possible. Both of these things point to me not wanting to put my snakes in a situation that makes either them or another person uncomfortable. There are zero benefits to taking your snake out in public and there could be so many harmful effects, I don't understand why any responsible keeper would risk it. A snake is not a dog and should not be treated as such.

This really isn't a huge issue so I can agree to disagree with your handling practices; people do a thousand things to their pets that aren't 100% in the best interest of the animal and serve primarily to benefit us. I put clothes on my dog (a 70 lb shepherd/chow mix if you wanted a visual) sometimes, and I'm absolutely sure he doesn't benefit from it. I know my tarantulas hate it when I open their enclosures to look at them. I still do those things sometimes because they benefit me (and because the spiders sit in the same spot so long it's good to know they haven't died). When it comes down to it, no taking your BP outside probably won't do serious harm to a calmer snake, even though I disagree with doing it.

I can get intense when I'm talking about behavior and neurology because it's something I'm very interested in and have taken a lot of coursework on, so I just wanted to be clear that I'm mainly debating whether something is a sign of stress in a BP and how variable their ways of expressing stress are, rather than whether or not someone is a terrible person for taking their snake outside.

I'm offering up an opinion on the subject. This might get a bit long winded.

In regards to taking a snake/other reptile out to the grocery store or other random stores. What the heck are you thinking? The grocery store has temps that swing wildly from area to area that's not good for any animal. I don't even like it. And most other stores temps sit around 65 degrees in the summer due to air conditioning. That's not good for them. Those are hibernation temps for some species.

In regards to taking a snake/other reptile to a pet store/reptile show. What the heck are you thinking!?!?!?! Seriously?!!! I don't care what your opinion is about whatever random pet store is in your town there are a bunch of wild caught reptiles in that store and you risk infecting your pet with their diseases/parasites. I hope you don't bother quarantining your snakes/reptiles because its basically a waste of time if you are taking your snakes to pet shows/stores.

In regards to taking a snake outside. This one I don't really care assuming the temperature and humidity conditions are favorable. If you want to get a photo of your snake in a natural environment sweet. However as with the above situations you risk escapes, random people bothering you. If you are working with native species you run the risk of being reported if keeping them in your area is illegal.

There is an alternative to getting a photo in a natural environment. Considering most of these species we keep aren't native to our own area, maybe get a houseplant from the origin country and pose your reptile on it within the relative safety of your own home. Set up a small studio, which is relatively easy with a sheet and something to put the snake on.

In regards to walking around with your snake outside. What's the point? There are other ways of adding enrichment to a reptiles daily life than handling them around the block.

Finally in general the only reason your reptile should ever be out in public is if it is in some sort of educational capacity with them. That's it. Educating the public about reptiles and how interesting they are is the only reason they should ever be exposed to the public.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I cannot show you over the internet just how my snake acts. I feel she is comfortable and go on that. I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter. However after having her for a year, I know this is her normal activity level outside the tank. She acts perfectly normal and looks healthy despite my taking her for walks.
Unless a certified vet corrects me, I will continue with my practices. Thank you for being understanding and not pushing your ways on us!

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No problem.

However...a vet's insight would be worthless. The only opinion of value is that of researchers who took the time and effort to publish peer reviewed research on this subject.

Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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You may be surprised how many vets are in the back of the office with a reptile book while the patient is waiting in the exam room. I can understand it to a point since there are so many snakes and so many different requirements.

I personally do not see an issue with it and Im not trying to suggest anything you are doing is wrong. Just sharing my opinion on vets. I have seen this first hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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I agree with KMG. Even reptile specialist vets often don't know a lot about less commonly kept species right off the top of their heads. General small animal vets know pretty much nothing at all about reptiles. I've even had one waive the office visit charge because he admitted up front that he had no experience with reptiles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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I'm taking the time to read your posts very carefully, so please return the favor.

There are published, peer reviewed studies that deal specifically with this subject. In light of that, your insistence on having a certified biologist, proctologist, herpetologist or any ologist relay the information to you is perplexing. Especially considering most of them WON'T be able to help you in any way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm taking the time to read your posts very carefully, so please return the favor.

There are published, peer reviewed studies that deal specifically with this subject. In light of that, your insistence on having a certified biologist, proctologist, herpetologist or any ologist relay the information to you is perplexing. Especially considering most of them WON'T be able to help you in any way, shape or form.

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I'm a bit curious as to why you think someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology would have nothing to offer me. I'm not saying your peer reviewed studies are wrong...but who do you think publishes those? Thankfully neither I or my snake need to see a proctologist however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter.

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Wow. Let me first apologize profusely for missing this the first time I read it.

You have read up on signs of stress in reptiles. That's excellent. I would love to discuss these signs with you in more detail.

There are 12 recognized signs of distress and 9 signs of comfort.

Let's list them together...I'll go first.

Sign of distress #1: attempts to escape/seek shelter.

Your turn.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

...but who do you think publishes those?

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someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.

Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I'm a bit curious as to why you think someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology would have nothing to offer me. I'm not saying your peer reviewed studies are wrong...but who do you think publishes those? Thankfully neither I or my snake need to see a proctologist however.

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They are not MY studies. They are studies by specialists in the reptile community that have dedicated parts of their career to studying reptile behavior.

A biologist or herpetologist most likely does not have a specialty in the field of reptile behavior. The can study a number of things, but there are only a few dedicated herpetologists that have extensively studied how captivity affects the behavior of certain species of reptiles.

My mentor, for example, held a masters in Herpetology and a Doctorate in Biology. His specialty was natural adaptations - feeding, mating, territory size - in locality animals of the west and southwest. He also dabbled in central and south american colubrids. He spent literally no time studying the effects of captivity on captive snakes.

Do you understand this distinction?

Herpetologists, specialty zoologists, and the occasional ecologist are the ones that would publish behavioral papers or papers that deal with an animal's behavior in the wild. A vet studies primarily physiology and pharmacology and, while they may have experience with reptiles if that is their specialty, unless they have a private collection that experience is primarily with sick or injured animals in a stressful setting.

Kind of like how a surgeon can operate on your brain, but if you have questions about the finer points of neurobiology and how it relates to behavior, you'd get better answers from an academic neuroscientist.

EDIT: Skiploder is 100% correct about how few people focus on how captivity affects behavior. Most people studying at this level have a pretty specific area of expertise, and it usually isn't captive behavior.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.

Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.

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I obviously said that dear. I'm quite aware as I hope to go into biology myself.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

They are not MY studies. They are studies by specialists in the reptile community that have dedicated parts of their career to studying reptile behavior.

A biologist or herpetologist most likely does not have a specialty in the field of reptile behavior. The can study a number of things, but there are only a few dedicated herpetologists that have extensively studied how captivity affects the behavior of certain species of reptiles.

My mentor, for example, held a masters in Herpetology and a Doctorate in Biology. His specialty was natural adaptations - feeding, mating, territory size - in locality animals of the west and southwest. He also dabbled in central and south american colubrids. He spent literally no time studying the effects of captivity on captive snakes.

Do you understand this distinction?

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I never said they were YOUR studies. My whole point here is that I can raise my pets the way I want to without your input. The only way I will change how I raise them is if someone certified as a biologist, herpetologist, or veterinarian explains what I am doing is wrong and tells me to stop.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.

Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.

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A HUGE key phrase here is "peer review"! Dozens to much more articles and studies are rejected for every one accepted. Just because the author(s) is/are a doctor or have their masters degree doesn't give them passage into a respected peer review journal.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I obviously said that dear. I'm quite aware as I hope to go into biology myself.

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apologies, but you made it sound as though a scientific journal was like a Time magazine with a similar vetting process for contributing writers.

As far as a vets opinion, I once had a "certified reptile vet" tell me to feed canned dog food and crickets to my iguana. Obviously not all herp vets are so heinously misinformed, but not all are so knowledgeable as you might expect.

I'm a career biologist. Ecologist specialty even. Fairly extensive background in neuroscience. Does that mean you now believe everything I said about reptile behavior?

You shouldn't because reptile behavior in captivity isn't my area of expertise.

The best advice you're going to realistically get is from people, like the ones who have commented here, that have decades of experience raising BPs. Frankly, that experience trumps pretty much everything but the opinion of a very specialized academic when it comes to practical care for your animals. I'm not talking about myself here btw; my experience is primarily with colubrids, and there are some pretty big differences between their behavior and a BP's.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

As far as a vets opinion, I once had a "certified reptile vet" tell me to feed canned dog food and crickets to my iguana. Obviously not all herp vets are so heinously misinformed, but not all are so knowledgeable as you might expect.

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WHAT.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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I haven't read much of this thread up to here, but I would not put a lot of faith in vets when it comes to reptiles.

I have been feeding my dogs a raw food and bones diet for close to 20 years. Only in the last couple years do you see "vets" starting to advocate and understand dogs do much better on a diet that parallels the diet of a wolf. I find they (vets) are better at surgeries, and giving shots than a lot of other things. My vet, whom I like had zero knowledge of protection dog training, and behavior. Yet thought our animals were the best behaved dogs they treat.

Vets are great for repairing and treating things that happen to animals, but they are certainly not always experts on all or specific types of animals.

That's a bit off subject, but I notice you have a grand total of "not very many" posts here, while Skiploder has many, and has been keeping, observing and studying various species of snakes for years. I believe even venomous. While posts aren't everything, because there are many that are just for compliments and such, reading Skip's past posts may be eye opening.

I'll try to keep this positive and all that, but you may not want to argue or push your point with somebody with his experience level.

"Herpetologists and vets" probably don't venture into discussions about taking snakes for "walks", it may be cute and all, but even the most basic herp rules state snakes "tolerate" handling, and don't crave it, nor do they have the capacity to enjoy it. You may enjoy it, but that's the extent of it.

We as pet owners can put human emotion into any animal we want to and sometimes we believe it relates to the animal's own feelings, which reptiles don't have.

Do as you please with your animals, everybody does, whether its right or wrong, but I think if Skip is offering advice over the internet, it may be good advice.


I read some advice about boa constrictors over the internet. It was from a man named Gus Rentfro. He's not a herpetologist or a vet, but as it turns out he happens to be one of the world authorities on boa constrictors.

To be honest this subject is a bit juvenile.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I never said they were YOUR studies. My whole point here is that I can raise my pets the way I want to without your input. The only way I will change how I raise them is if someone certified as a biologist, herpetologist, or veterinarian explains what I am doing is wrong and tells me to stop.

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Fair enough!

Hey, can we get back to the proctologist ? Because this thread is really ....


Sorry Skip I had too.

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Originally Posted by Sonny1318

Hey, can we get back to the proctologist ? Because this thread is really ....


Sorry Skip I had too.

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lol How did I miss that on the first read-through?

Now Y'all shouldn't be poking fun at Skip's proctologist comment. As you can see it does apply to the animal kingdom!

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