The Live vs F/T debate

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

You can love all living creatures and still feed live. Heck, I fed live while I was vegan because my snake would have starved otherwise.

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It is kinda odd that MILLIONS and MILLIONS of our UK snakes are more than happy enough to eat defrosted frozen mice and rats but the US ones would all apparently starve to death if they don't get LIVE ones .. weird .

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If I speak at one constant volume...

...At one constant pitch...

...At one constant rhythm...

...Right into your ear...

...You still won't hear...

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It's not a case of not hearing . I just don't think that you all need to be feeding LIVE .

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

I only have corn snakes. I only feed frozen thawed. I'm also a vet tech so I'm more a 'save the small fuzzy creatures' type person. With all that aside, I am not against feeding live for a snake that is only going to take live. These things happen and I'd rather not have someone's pet starve to death. If people are careful, there are going to be very few accidents, but accidents can still occur. My sister-in-law used to work at a pet store and witnessed a rat kill a young ball python by tearing off a large chunk of its skull after it missed a strike. I have a rat snake that was fed live even after he went blind. The previous owner didn't leave the rats in with him for hours, but he still got injured a lot because he wasn't able to aim his strikes. I got him after he got bit in the roof of his mouth. He's 16 years old now and I'm fairly certain he's the snake equivalent of senile. Feeding live to him would not be responsible feeding. One simply needs to be aware of all the potential factors.

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Another voice of reason . Thank the lord .

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

I only have corn snakes. I only feed frozen thawed. I'm also a vet tech so I'm more a 'save the small fuzzy creatures' type person. With all that aside, I am not against feeding live for a snake that is only going to take live. These things happen and I'd rather not have someone's pet starve to death. If people are careful, there are going to be very few accidents, but accidents can still occur. My sister-in-law used to work at a pet store and witnessed a rat kill a young ball python by tearing off a large chunk of its skull after it missed a strike. I have a rat snake that was fed live even after he went blind. The previous owner didn't leave the rats in with him for hours, but he still got injured a lot because he wasn't able to aim his strikes. I got him after he got bit in the roof of his mouth. He's 16 years old now and I'm fairly certain he's the snake equivalent of senile. Feeding live to him would not be responsible feeding. One simply needs to be aware of all the potential factors.

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A bit more evidence for the case AGAINST feeding LIVE !

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It's not a case of not hearing . I just don't think that you all need to be feeding LIVE .

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Who are you to be telling everyone what to do? What makes you so superior? You're not opposed to killing rats for food, you just need someone else to do the dirty work for you. How does that make you any better?

You're not here to do anything except stir up fear with newbies over something you know zero about.

That's pathetic.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Who are you to be telling everyone what to do? What makes you so superior? You're not opposed to killing rats for food, you just need someone else to do the dirty work for you. How does that make you any better?

You're not here to do anything except stir up fear with newbies over something you know zero about.

That's pathetic.

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I am simply opposed to LIVE feeding , is that such a crime ?

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I am simply opposed to LIVE feeding , is that such a crime ?

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

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I find the cultural difference in opinion really interesting. I wonder why it developed that way.

I'm in the "F/T whenever possible" camp but honestly, I think it's much more important how the rats are kept before they're fed, whether they're fed live or pre-killed. It's a quick exit either way, but I wish there was a better way of knowing the standard of care given to the rats before they become food. If anyone has recommendations for feeder breeders in Canada that feed and house their rodents properly I'd love some tips.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I am simply opposed to LIVE feeding , is that such a crime ?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

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Oh look, you posted one of those pictures just like Deborah said you would. That disgusting imagery is the result of an improper live feeding, do not assume a responsible owner would ever allow that to happen on their watch. Any excuse for that is a bad excuse.

How ridiculous that anyone could believe allowing an animal to die by a snake is any more barbaric than gassing it... On the contrary, the forbidding of such discussions is the height of ignorance. A proper community will at the very least provide reasons and examples based on real experience, not heresy based in something you read online or a graphic picture taken by someone who clearly had no clue what they were doing. Your crime is talking down to people and trying to make out owners who feed live as bad people. I do not care what you feed your own animals, I really don't. But when you come here and make owners who feed live out to be bad people I have a problem. I have read what you say, and have to admit so much of your argument is based on feelings and stories you've heard that clearly came from unreliable sources.

I feed live to my snakes that refuse to eat f/t. Would they probably make the switch if I was persistent? Probably. Am I willing to take my juveniles or my breeding females off of food for as long as it takes, even if it takes months? Absolutely not. I know I can feed live without danger, and as I said before the end result is the same for the rat.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

It's not a case of not hearing . I just don't think that you all need to be feeding LIVE .

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Are you putting words into mouth?

Did I say I fed live?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Are you putting words into mouth?

Did I say I fed live?

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I was generalising as it seems that feeding LIVE is the norm in the US .

Its simply not considered as acceptable in England and indeed Ireland as the Irish forum have banned ANY discussions on the subject as its regarded as barbaric .

Anyways I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads .

The problem here may be cultural but the biggest part of it is just ignorance apparently some people choose to remain ignorant no matter what :rolleyes:

That's what happen when you choose not to try anything new, not to question anything and simply regurgitate the same thing over and over again because you read it somewhere.

Do you know how your feeders are euthanized anyway? I bet not, you probably couldn't stomach doing it yourself anyway, well let me tell you when done in massive numbers like that it's not as fast as you think and if not done properly (again there is a right way to do it) it can be highly stressful and painful too, when the snakes dispatch the prey it's fast and painless.

BTW I am not from the US I am from Europe just like you, the difference I base my recommendations on EXPERIENCE and I believe in EDUCATING not scaring, I also don't believe being better than someone because of the prey I chose to feed.

Anyway you can lead a horse to the water......

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Originally Posted by Daigga

[FONT=Verdana]

Oh look, you posted one of those pictures just like Deborah said you would. That disgusting imagery is the result of an improper live feeding, do not assume a responsible owner would ever allow that to happen on their watch. Any excuse for that is a bad excuse.

How ridiculous that anyone could believe allowing an animal to die by a snake is any more barbaric than gassing it... On the contrary, the forbidding of such discussions is the height of ignorance. A proper community will at the very least provide reasons and examples based on real experience, not heresy based in something you read online or a graphic picture taken by someone who clearly had no clue what they were doing. Your crime is talking down to people and trying to make out owners who feed live as bad people. I do not care what you feed your own animals, I really don't. But when you come here and make owners who feed live out to be bad people I have a problem. I have read what you say, and have to admit so much of your argument is based on feelings and stories you've heard that clearly came from unreliable sources.

I feed live to my snakes that refuse to eat f/t. Would they probably make the switch if I was persistent? Probably. Am I willing to take my juveniles or my breeding females off of food for as long as it takes, even if it takes months? Absolutely not. I know I can feed live without danger, and as I said before the end result is the same for the rat.

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You're presuming that EVERYONE feeding LIVE are feeding responsively when we both know that many will just throw a LIVE mouse or rat in with all their snakes and simply presume that everything will be fine.

That PHOTO was taken from the Reptile Community Ireland Forum and you can read the facts about THAT poor snake there ..... it wasn't some random damaged snake photo lifted off the Internet .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

You're presuming that EVERYONE feeding LIVE are feeding responsively when we both know that many will just throw a LIVE mouse or rat in with all their snakes and simply presume that everything will be fine.

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And you assume that everyone feeding live is just ignorant and irresponsible. :rolleye2:

BTW I thought you were done :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

And you assume that everyone feeding live is just ignorant and irresponsible. :rolleye2:

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I've never said anyone is ignorant or irresponsible
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Finally the thread title says DEBATE .... aren't there supposed to be more than one side in a debate ??

I'm only voicing an opinion shared by others in the UK and many , many other countries .
It's hardly a one man mission ..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I am simply opposed to LIVE feeding , is that such a crime ?

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

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More disingenuous, irrational, fear mongering attempting to scare newbies.

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I've never said anyone is ignorant or irresponsible

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Oh no you just act like it instead :rolleyes:
.

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Finally the thread title says DEBATE .... aren't there supposed to be more than one side in a debate ??

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The title says debate because of what it got turned into in case you did not notice I had to clean up the original thread

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I'm only voicing an opinion shared by others in the UK and many , many other countries .
It's hardly a one man mission ..

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Opinion which is based on regurgitated info that are not even representative of live feeding nor based on EXPERIENCED..............oh and now it's a mission :rolleyes:

BTW weren't you done :confusd:

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Originally Posted by 200xth

More disingenuous, irrational, fear mongering attempting to scare newbies.

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That photo is from the Reptile Community forum ( Ireland ).
The story behind that sad photo is in the feeding section .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That photo is from the Reptile Community forum ( Ireland ).
The story behind that sad photo is in the feeding section .

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So? Are you trying to tell people that happens all the time? That it's common?

In your experience, how often do incidents like that happen, and what generally causes them?

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Originally Posted by 200xth

So? Are you trying to tell people that happens all the time? That it's common?

In your experience, how often do incidents like that happen, and what generally causes them?

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I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the Reptile Community Ireland forum , even DISCUSSING the feeding of LIVE is not allowed as it's regarded as barbaric.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ive_prey_1.jpg

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Just as a warning for everyone else, this is a graphic picture of a ball python (assuming it was attacked by a rat)

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

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Did you know that deaths have occurred also when feeding F/T wouldn't one be too many also? Yet you don't see me being on a MISSION saying not to feed F/T.

Guess you did not know that either did you?

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

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So you don't know the answer to either question? You're just speaking from a position of hysteria rather than an informed position based on experience and knowledge of the subject in question.

I'm sure by now everyone knows that, so I'm gonna drop out of this. Not much point in watching you continue try to scare newbies with irrational fear mongering garbage. Kinda sad to watch, but people like you gotta do what you gotta do to feel better about yourselves I guess.

Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I just love ALL living creatures ... as I've said before .... my heart sinks when I step on a snail in the dark .

I'm certainly not trolling ....

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Perhaps, if you love all living creatures, you shouldn't own them as pets. You're keeping a snake confined to a small area and feeding it something that has been dead for God knows how long. Doesn't sound very humane to me. Are you a vegetarian?

Ratbait did fine with live prey up until he went blind. His previous owner, sadly, was under the mistaken impression that *all* snakes will *only* take live prey and so continued to feed him. She was trying to do right, but was not informed of all options.

There are snakes that will literally starve themselves to death for lack of live prey. Live pinkies are my ultimate last resort for non-feeding hatchling corns snakes, as in "you hatched 6 weeks ago, you've never eaten, and you'll die in another couple weeks if I don't get you eating." Some still starve themselves (i euthanise before they starve to *death*) but many will take live pinkies. I try to convert as soon as possible because I am personally uncomfortable with feeding live, especially to hatchling corns that don't kill the mouse first. That whole "save the fuzzy animal" vet tech part.

I also have worked with someone whose ball python refused f/t *anything*. Mice, rats, quail. If it wasn't alive, it wouldn't eat. She once had it go 6 months refusing f/t before she finally offered stunned live prey, which it killed and ate immediately. Snakes will form preferences. I have a corn snake that will *only* eat quail. He didn't eat for 9 months before I got him figured out, and that by accident. I have another corn snake that will only eat white mice. Snakes are weird, and while many can be switched to f/t, maybe even most, there will always be those snakes that turn their nose up at f/t, and those snakes need to eat. At that point, the owner needs to educate themselves and figure out a safe way to do it and be prepared for medical bills in case of an injury from a missed strike.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

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You are right, it could have been easily avoided.

Let me explain; the ball python pictured is clearly a very young one. It's entirely possible that it was the snakes first time feeding live and it got a bad wrap on the prey. However; this is the part where being a responsible owner comes into play. There is zero reason that the owner couldn't have stepped in to save the snake. In my own feeding procedures I am always no more than a step away with feeding tongs ready to put those tongs between the feeder and my snake. If the mouse can bite the tongs go in their mouth until they're beyond the point of biting. If the snake has coiled the prey to the point where I can't get the tongs in place properly, I use my hands to maneuver the snake into a better position. This isn't ideal, but if it comes to me suffering a bite from snake or feeder or the snake releasing the prey entirely I'll still take that over allowing my snake to be destroyed (I have only had to move a snake into a better position one time, and in the process that snake readjusted its grip so my interference was no longer needed). If worse comes to worse, I know I am strong enough to pry a ball python off of the feeder. I invite you to post the entire story behind that gruesome picture, because I 100% guarantee you there was something that could have been done by the owner that was not done.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I was generalising as it seems that feeding LIVE is the norm in the US .

Its simply not considered as acceptable in England and indeed Ireland as the Irish forum have banned ANY discussions on the subject as its regarded as barbaric .

Anyways I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads .

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taxation without representation was also once considered acceptable in england.

how did that turn out? :salute:

Can we just compromise. Everyone start doing fresh killed, the animal isn't subjected to the barbaric actions of the snake which works for the UK and us blood thirsty Americans still get to kill something.

Also what is the OP's policy on fresh killed prey for snakes?

One of the infamous rodent destroys snake in cage match pictures. I can pretty well guarantee that the damage did not occur when a hungry snake struck an appropriately sized prey item. Let's use our powers of observation for a bit:

1) Snake is underweight,
2) Snake is small, anywhere from hatchling to 200g I'd guess.
3) Prey was large enough to cause significant, deliberate damage

That's what we get from the picture. Now, for a rodent to cause that kind of damage they need to be at least around the "hopper" size for mice or the "weaner" size for rats. Anything smaller than that is really only capable of defensive bites once coiled which would occur in a more localized area. Depending on the actual size of the snake we are looking at a prey offering anywhere from acceptable to grossly oversized. The snake being in rather subpar physical condition only compounds an oversized prey problem, if there was one.

Next, let's think about the feeding habits of mice and rats. Mice are more herbivorous but if they're hungry enough they will eat just about anything they can sink their teeth into. Rats tend to eat more protein naturally and don't require an empty stomach to taste test some meat. So, while rats are more likely to start gnawing on a snake, even mice will do it if hungry enough.

Knowing this, what's going to happen when you drop a hungry rodent in an enclosed space with a disinterested snake? Eventually that rodent is going to take a test nibble. If you've kept rodents you'll know they are relentless and rather ruthless when it comes to food. If the snake does not respond with an aggressive intent to kill it stands little chance in this scenario. Any kind of defensive response is likely to end with a tuckered out snake being eaten alive by a triumphant rodent.

Observing the underweight, small snake in the picture we can deduce that he is not feeding well. This could be the result of any number of things from a poor setup, not offering the appropriate food choices, to simply not offering food often enough. The state of the snake didn't likely cause the outcome but it still gives one ideas on how the scenario might have unfolded. I'm personally picturing an inexperienced keeper growing frustrated with a non feeder and simply leaving a live food item in overnight. Whatever the actual circumstances, this damage likely occurred over the course of many hours.

While we're discussing the pros and cons of live vs deceased. I have to ask folks that feed exclusively dead prey, what is your waste ratio? I imagine smaller collections lose more as they have less options when a prey item is refused. I currently feed about an even split of live to f/t and can count the number of uneaten, discarded rodents in the last 10 years on one hand. To be fair, even those rodents were eaten - just not by the intended snakes - but by the chickens or tegus. I have my snakes that will eat anything no matter what, they get f/t and do fine. Then I have the more volatile eaters, when they decide it's not time to eat the rodent simply goes back into the tub to live another day. I honestly can't help but shudder at the number of rodents, animals who gave up their lives for the sake of sustaining other creatures, that must be discarded because live feeding is so steadfastly shunned by some. I also wonder how many snakes had to be force fed unnecessarily, or even died, as a result?

I sure wouldn't be feeding live if I didn't get off on it so much. Love it. Must be my American savagry. Or maybe we can look further back to my WW1 & 2 era German great grandfather. But lets not go there.

Isn't there like 3 other threads about this and you already?

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Originally Posted by John1982

One of the infamous rodent destroys snake in cage match pictures. I can pretty well guarantee that the damage did not occur when a hungry snake struck an appropriately sized prey item. Let's use our powers of observation for a bit:

1) Snake is underweight,
2) Snake is small, anywhere from hatchling to 200g I'd guess.
3) Prey was large enough to cause significant, deliberate damage

That's what we get from the picture. Now, for a rodent to cause that kind of damage they need to be at least around the "hopper" size for mice or the "weaner" size for rats. Anything smaller than that is really only capable of defensive bites once coiled which would occur in a more localized area. Depending on the actual size of the snake we are looking at a prey offering anywhere from acceptable to grossly oversized. The snake being in rather subpar physical condition only compounds an oversized prey problem, if there was one.

Next, let's think about the feeding habits of mice and rats. Mice are more herbivorous but if they're hungry enough they will eat just about anything they can sink their teeth into. Rats tend to eat more protein naturally and don't require an empty stomach to taste test some meat. So, while rats are more likely to start gnawing on a snake, even mice will do it if hungry enough.

Knowing this, what's going to happen when you drop a hungry rodent in an enclosed space with a disinterested snake? Eventually that rodent is going to take a test nibble. If you've kept rodents you'll know they are relentless and rather ruthless when it comes to food. If the snake does not respond with an aggressive intent to kill it stands little chance in this scenario. Any kind of defensive response is likely to end with a tuckered out snake being eaten alive by a triumphant rodent.

Observing the underweight, small snake in the picture we can deduce that he is not feeding well. This could be the result of any number of things from a poor setup, not offering the appropriate food choices, to simply not offering food often enough. The state of the snake didn't likely cause the outcome but it still gives one ideas on how the scenario might have unfolded. I'm personally picturing an inexperienced keeper growing frustrated with a non feeder and simply leaving a live food item in overnight. Whatever the actual circumstances, this damage likely occurred over the course of many hours.

While we're discussing the pros and cons of live vs deceased. I have to ask folks that feed exclusively dead prey, what is your waste ratio? I imagine smaller collections lose more as they have less options when a prey item is refused. I currently feed about an even split of live to f/t and can count the number of uneaten, discarded rodents in the last 10 years on one hand. To be fair, even those rodents were eaten - just not by the intended snakes - but by the chickens or tegus. I have my snakes that will eat anything no matter what, they get f/t and do fine. Then I have the more volatile eaters, when they decide it's not time to eat the rodent simply goes back into the tub to live another day. I honestly can't help but shudder at the number of rodents, animals who gave up their lives for the sake of sustaining other creatures, that must be discarded because live feeding is so steadfastly shunned by some. I also wonder how many snakes had to be force fed unnecessarily, or even died, as a result?

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Well personally I've never wasted a single defrosted rodent . It's an accepted practice to feed a 'rejected ' item to one of your 'dustbin' snakes. I've got a few that will NEVER , EVER refuse a meal .

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Originally Posted by Daigga

You are right, it could have been easily avoided.

Let me explain; the ball python pictured is clearly a very young one. It's entirely possible that it was the snakes first time feeding live and it got a bad wrap on the prey. However; this is the part where being a responsible owner comes into play. There is zero reason that the owner couldn't have stepped in to save the snake. In my own feeding procedures I am always no more than a step away with feeding tongs ready to put those tongs between the feeder and my snake. If the mouse can bite the tongs go in their mouth until they're beyond the point of biting. If the snake has coiled the prey to the point where I can't get the tongs in place properly, I use my hands to maneuver the snake into a better position. This isn't ideal, but if it comes to me suffering a bite from snake or feeder or the snake releasing the prey entirely I'll still take that over allowing my snake to be destroyed (I have only had to move a snake into a better position one time, and in the process that snake readjusted its grip so my interference was no longer needed). If worse comes to worse, I know I am strong enough to pry a ball python off of the feeder. I invite you to post the entire story behind that gruesome picture, because I 100% guarantee you there was something that could have been done by the owner that was not done.

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Wow , you paint a pretty picture there ...with your tongs being forced into the rodents mouth until it was unable to bite .... and here's me thinking that feeding live was cruel and barbaric .... what was I thinking !?

I'm the one around here who's heart sinks when I carelessly stand on a snail in the dark and yet I'm being portrayed as the ' evil enemy within '

Jees !

To be fair you are coming across as accusing the people feeding live as somehow morally inferior.

It's not likely to win anyone over to your side of any argument. As you know I don't feed live either - even when starting hatchlings. But when faced with a different culture I see no reason to try and change it to suit me.

If it helps I can tell you about snakes that died as a result of being fed improperly prepared F/T. I can even tell you about a case where the rats used formed a kind of digestive napalm that stuck to the snakes skin, when they regurged, of such severity it killed them as a result. I can also point out your body has destroyed thousands of organisms in the time it took you to read this. :P

Chill out and let others do as they do is my advice.

This "debate" is pointless. F/T, pre killed and live are all perfectly valid and practiced by thousands of keepers. If local laws, customs or personal preference don't permit live feeding then fine, don't do it. None of these options is "right" and none are "wrong"

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I really don't get this LIVE feeding malarkey . I've kept loads of snakes from Garters to Burms and I've never had to resort to feeding LIVE.
Even the fussiest Royal Python will eat warmed up d/f when they're ready . I currently have a matching , non related pair of Albino Royals who will only eat if it's warmed up and dangled in front of their face .. It sometimes takes three or four attempts but so what - just put the time and effort in and don't take the easy route of feeding LIVE . It's cruel to the rodents and risky for your snakes !!

I read a post the other day where this woman said she hated feeding live due to the harrowing sound of the rat pup crying in pain for 25 minutes whilst it was slowly eaten alive !!!
She said it sounded like a crying baby !!!

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Well let me start by saying I am NOT going to read through all these pages.
Second, Barbaric?? Really??? Starting to smell the same at both ends here.
Third, you don't get it? That's right because its not all about YOU.

I don't get why you must continue to TROLL this debate.
You do as you want and we will as we do. That's life.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I was generalising as it seems that feeding LIVE is the norm in the US .
Its simply not considered as acceptable in England and indeed Ireland as the Irish forum have banned ANY discussions on the subject as its regarded as barbaric .
Anyways I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads .

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Glad I am a barbaric HETHAN living in the great state of TEXAS.
I have now had two members try to insult me without realizing their opinion doesn't matter. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm saying that once is once too many when it could have easily been avoided .

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There are many "once in life" moments.
It is your duty as a human to play them out as you would like.
Kind of like this moment, You made me into a liar this one time because curiosity made me read all these posts.
Yes, I know curiosity killed the cat (it was a 25 minute struggle for breath)
BUT satisfaction brought it back LoL

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Originally Posted by DennisM

This "debate" is pointless. F/T, pre killed and live are all perfectly valid and practiced by thousands of keepers. If local laws, customs or personal preference don't permit live feeding then fine, don't do it. None of these options is "right" and none are "wrong"

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^------This, this right here.


If anyone is so ignorant that they want to judge others for actions accepted in a community world wide, don't be mad when other judge you for regurgitating only information anyone could find on Google. Gain some first hand knowledge and then come back to the fight equipped with more than just he said she said.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I'm the one around here who's heart sinks when I carelessly stand on a snail in the dark and yet I'm being portrayed as the ' evil enemy within '

Jees !

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Yeah you must be the only one who cares for animals on this forum. You should be more careful in the dark if there are so many snails to be stepped on.

If you love animals so much, why do you keep any as pets? Also, how can you proclaim love for animals but seemingly not understand animal nature? Rats don't gas and freeze themselves in the wild and wait to be eaten. If anything, feeding live is more humane in my eyes. Send the rats to a gas chamber to die slowly and then be frozen? Do you have other pets like dogs or cats? Do you eat animal products or have kids that eat animal products? Or is it tofu and Popsicles for everyone? You don't love animals, you love TELLING people you love animals and trying to make them feel like how they handle their own animals is wrong because you have some moral "mission".

Wow, just wow. I raise my own rodents and therefore feed a lot of live. It's funny I have some snakes left over from the days I fed f/t, their muscular development is different from the ones I raised on a primarily live diet. Just food for thought.
Also who ever came up with the idea that a rodent screams for 25 minutes while the snake is killing it is really really ignorant on how snakes hunt and kill. Typically, unless it's a gigantic meal, it's less then 10 from strike and wrap to ready for the next one!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

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^------This, this right here.

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That second quote is not one of mine incidentally so I've no idea why my name is linked to it .

It's not showing for some reason but it's in your previous post .

I don't understand these threads sometimes. They seem to cause unnecessary tension when presented like this.

I'm certain there are several VERY experienced folks here that have tried feeding both ways, and maybe, like myself mix it up from time to time.


I'll bet if I met Deborah or any other member in person, and watched them work through their collection I'd learn a thing or two. And maybe if they watched me do a few things, they'd get an idea or two.

Everybody has a way that works for them, and maybe there is risk and maybe not.

Here is one thing about live I didn't know until last year, and don't like.

IBD is "linked" to live rodents. http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2012/08/125...isease-decoded

However, I have a royal that goes off food, for 6-7 months at a time. Somebody mentioned "kick start" with live. I agree, and even though I could maybe wait it out, I don't want to always waste 3-4 rats prior to that, or spend long periods trying to stimulate a feed response when I have other pressing activities that same day.

That said, F/T is easiest and I prefer it, but there is nothing wrong with a live feed now and then.

Any prey item that takes "25 minutes" to dispatch is not a properly sized or something is wrong. I don't know what was happening in that example, but there was some obvious problem.

ALL feeds I've done with appropriately sized prey have succumbed to the constriction in 2.5 minutes and sometimes less. One could argue certain methods of pre-killing are just as "cruel" as the natural process of a snake constricting, which not only stops breathing but creates total cardiac failure do to the extreme pressure on the vascular system. Minus the bite the process causes blackout and heart stoppage. In perfect practice its rather quick.

I do feel empathy for the prey, however the hunting, and constriction tactics of snakes is what many of us are fascinated by and we accept their process of predation.

As far as prey having a "chance" in the wild, I'd tend to lean away from that assessment. Snakes are MASTERS of ambush, at least the non foragers are. If a boa constrictor plants itself near a prey trail and lies motionless for a month, and they can and will; there is going to be little if any chance that passing prey is going to have any chance to get away.

Snakes don't set up hunts with a margin of failure like some mammals do. Total surprise, extreme speed and minimal risk is their specialty. If that wasn't the case, they'd have huge open territory and a collectively different set of hunting skills. Snakes dry spells are usually not determined by the prey escaping, but rather the lack of prey in their range.

The "chance" any rodent has from not being a prey item in captivity ends the second it is classified as a feeder by a human.


That was a bit more than I wanted to write here.

Each keeper has a method that works. Hopefully everything is done to ensure the safety to the snake, and the prey item has fair treatment up until the end should you feed live.

For my situation F/T's is better, but again everybody has a method they are comfortable with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That second quote is not one of mine incidentally so I've no idea why my name is linked to it .

It's not showing for some reason but it's in your previous post .

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That would be the 3rd quote that is not yours and given to the correct person.

I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the I-Many

I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.

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WoW................
Wrong in so many ways. Have you seen a scared rat that comes around after being stunned?
If you have issued then man up and do a cervical dislocate, no need to be cruel about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the I-Many

I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.

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I think this is sarcastic??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the I-Many

I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.

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Why?

These snakes are the product of 70 to 90 million years of evolution with two goals. The first is to breed. The second is to kill small animals and eat them so it can live long enough and get big enough to breed.

It's very good at both of them, and it doesn't really need help with either of them. In my 2 cent opinion, people do far too much trying to help these animals when they don't need it, from smashing their rodents against walls to feeding on paper plates to picking crap out of their teeth.

When it comes to feeding live, just let your snake do what he is incredibly well designed to do. Put a properly sized rodent in the enclosure and let your snake do the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the I-Many

I got worried once the rats started having claws and scratched my bp in the face. So i started putting them in a bag and SLAMMING THEM AGAINST THE WALL. Yeah, it gave me the chills yhe first couple times but so does nature and life as we currently understand it. CHOO CHOO, BABY.

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Funny are barbaric F/T and F/K feeding can really be too but I guess our friend will dismiss that.

As for you obviously have no business feeding P/K.

If you can't respect the feeders and treat them humanely whether you feed live or P/K you have no business owning a snake and should stick to a pet rock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

That would be the 3rd quote that is not yours and given to the correct person.

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I could see a quote in your post which was wrongly attributed to myself . That was all I was saying .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That second quote is not one of mine incidentally so I've no idea why my name is linked to it .

It's not showing for some reason but it's in your previous post .

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Actually that second post is one of yours - if you click the little arrows just after your name it will take you right to the post.

The third one isn't yours but then it doesn't have your name on it either.

Right , as I promised before .... I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads and won't contribute to any other LIVE feeding threads in the future . I'll never understand why you guys feed LIVE but that's life .


Just to add a little balance to proceedings , anyone checking my profile will see that out of about 300+ posts I've made in here ...... there are roughly 60 THANKS plus about 5 RED " thumbs down " ones . The red ones were all in theese LIVE feeding threads which is telling in itself .

Anyways , apologies to anyone I may have inadvertently annoyed or insulted . If that has occurred I can only say that it was unintentional .