More snakes to join Burmese python on restricted list

I see petition popping here and there as well as groups and pages for people to voice their opinion, I understand this is meant to do well however the truth is this is beyond signing petitions, petitions will not do anything at this point, the answer is supporting USARK this is the only chance we have to reverse this.

If everyone signing petition would actually join USARK and tell others to join USARK it would accomplish a lot more.

Again 3 important links

http://usark.org/membership-signup/ USARK Membership

http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/ Reptile Defense Fund

http://usark.org/product/donation-5-increments/ USARK Donations

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Originally Posted by blue roses

Did you guy ever think of organizing a march on washington, carrying our snakes up to the capital steps. Just think about all the signs saying, the biggest snakes live here.

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I dunno how well this would help us, but I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I see petition popping here and there as well as groups and pages for people to voice their opinion, I understand this is meant to do well however the truth is this is beyond signing petitions, petitions will not do anything at this point, the answer is supporting USARK this is the only chance we have to reverse this.

If everyone signing petition would actually join USARK and tell others to join USARK it would accomplish a lot more.

Again 3 important links

http://usark.org/membership-signup/ USARK Membership

http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/ Reptile Defense Fund

http://usark.org/product/donation-5-increments/ USARK Donations

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NICE EASY LINKS!!!


Joined and Donated.

Who's next?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Thankfully the boas were not included in the list, but I expect there will be another effort made in the future to add them based on statements made in:
http://www.ibtimes.com/lacey-act-sna...lovers-1839762.

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Thanks bcr229, anicatgirl for those links to support usark and to petition and donate for change. We all need to stick together to eradicate this "lacey act" legislation. It is ridiculous to blame the reptile community for the invasive problem in Fla. Ever since the 1920's there have been hurricaines and tropical storms in Fla. that are the true causes of this problem. People died, houses and properties destroyed, possessions both material and otherwise including pets domestic and exotic. Isn't the natural disaster the true cause of the problem. We are being made the scapegoat and it's truly unfair. I second the motion to take this to the capitol. Where do I sign? Already committed to USARK, let's get some dates on the table for WashingtonDC. :gj:

This is really frustrating, and I want to know why the hell these people care when are are obviously uneducated on the subject. As many others have pointed out, even in the opening article, this is a problem for South Florida, not anywhere else. This is not how you deal with the problem - and besides, the damage is already done. I wish there was more we could do about it. This really hurts snake breeders too because it's not like it's a really high income thing anyway, now if you can't sell across state lines, that's really gonna hurt their business. What happened in Florida is already done, what do these people think they're preventing now?

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Originally Posted by Rinne

This is really frustrating, and I want to know why the hell these people care when are are obviously uneducated on the subject.

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You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS. Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets. Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS. Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets. Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.

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BINGO!

All those sad, sad commercials you see with the haunting music showing abused animals, you know what I'm talking about.

That's how they get their money and donations, a tug on the heart strings. People think they are helping animals, but really, they are funding a lobby group/groups that are in favor of kill shelters, nice term. Kill, followed by shelter, but that's what they do, they don't "save" animals.

They do not have you, or your pet's best interest in mind.

A boatload of money goes to the people/places that influence votes, and not our votes. You never saw a survey, or public hearing on any of this did you?


Don't get me wrong, I love reptiles, but things like this are just a little piece of a larger and more grim picture.


If you think these people give two craps about the Everglades, think again. They'll divert water flow and lift some environmental restriction tomorrow if it benefits some large company or land deal.

Pythons destroying the Everglades? How about more than a half century of piss poor irrigation practices and land development deals?

Yeah,,, its the snakes LOL!

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Originally Posted by bcr229

You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS. Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets. Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.

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I was browsing PETA's website and a lot is just plain nonsense. I could say I was the only person in my group of friends who liked animals and was a little of a "environmentalist" and saving the earths animals, blah blah blah. But you have to be realistic. I do NOT support taking animals from the wild and selling wild caught animals in poor conditions and wiping out wild populations. I do not support hunting endangered animals, killing animals for clothes, and so on just like PETA. But to take some collections from the wild and promote captive breeding like the ball python, bearded dragon, leopard gecko etc. is very different in my opinion. In a way these animals are almost "domesticated" if a bird or a hamster can be called "domesticated". Snakes tolerate people and thrive in captivity just like a parakeet or a chinchilla. Heck, Ive seen posts that ball pythons and other reptiles are being bred for temperament as well and it proving out. I think the government should be cracking down on things like puppy mills and wholesaling wild caught animals to pet shops and not responsible breeders and pet keepers. I've received stitches from a hamster and bird before but I have not even been hissed /struck at once by my ball python. My snake tolerates me more then my dogs do. I feel like I can predict my snakes next move and trust him more then most animals. It angers me that these laws are passed by people in congress who fear snakes themselves with no scientific research even looked at. We need to do something now before our boas and balls are next. Then all reptiles. Then maybe all exotic pets. And eventually it will be our dogs/cats someday. Sorry for the rant but I am so angered by this all :rage:

http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/...ng-snakes.html

Ugh this whole article makes me sick... :doh:

There is one and only solution to end this and similar atrocities like this from the root. Take money out of politics. Otherwise, scientific data will always be undermined via special interest cash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-hx-9Gvnnw

Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.

If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.

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Originally Posted by Rinne

Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.

If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.

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Lacy Act is very serious and the above statement, albeit made in good intentions, may have unwanted consequences. People have been charged served jail time before for very minor things.

Also, businesses which are large enough and have high stakes, are very very careful with these things. I don't see Prehistoric Pets mislabelling their boxes for example and no business will be able to advertise their animals for out of state buyers. This will effectively kill the industry.

According to some of the big constrictor people, they have seen and heard of packages being opened and checked. Is is worth it to face up to 5 years in prison and heavy fines? I'm not so sure.... If you'd like to give it a go, then go ahead.

I best route at this point is to support USARK's lawsuit. If that fails, then this part of the hobby might have to go black market, which is so unfair and unjust to the keepers and breeders involved.

We should boycott the white house !!😁
let stop this crap!😡😡

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Originally Posted by Rinne

Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.

If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.

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People like you are part of what is wrong with this industry, YOU make us all look bad and put our ability to be able to ship our animals at risk but I guess you don't care. Do you think that encouraging braking the law whether it is stupid or not will help our cause?

When shipping it is very important to properly label your box but I guess you would not know that , I guess what you would not know either is that random packages are pulled out and inspected by a US fish and wildlife agents (and yes they know the difference between a BP and a Burm or Retic or Anaconda.)

So yeah just do what you preach if making everyone look bad and taking the risk of becoming a felon and get 5 years in jail is not an issue for you by all mean do it because truly this hobby does not need people like you.

Soap box over.

And BTW now changing over to being a mod before you are encouraging others to break the law.

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8. No posts promoting illegal behavior will be tolerated, including but not limited to warez/pirating of copyrighted material, illegal drug or alcohol usage, and illegal ownership or trafficking of species.

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I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say they were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen. Some people will probably do that.

It's ok to beat up on the idea. But beating up the guy was a bit much I think.

Just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say they were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen.

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No they didn't say they would, they just suggest others to do so which is even worse, I am not gonna sugar coat things because someone is clueless, or does not care.

If you care about this hobby and have a clue you don't make the statement below.

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If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

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Umm.. I realize now, after everyone's reaction and rereading my post how I may have sounded. But it was not my intention to encourage others to do that, nor do it myself. I have shipped reptiles before. Perfectly legal and correctly labeled. I was talking in theory to question how well it could actually be enforced.

My intention was to point out its lack of effectiveness. However, I shouldn't have said that because I did not know as you pointed out that they open boxes to check. Well, I guess I shouldn't try to make a point when I'm uneducated on it.

But I meant it how MasonC2K said it. Realistically people might do that. I'm not encouraging it, and yes if found out these people will hurt our cause. So it's a stupid thing to do.

But say even if you're just moving to one state over and you want to bring your pet with you. You think someone is going to be waiting at the state line asking if you have a burmese or retic?

I'm just saying that people who really want to do it will find loopholes, and questioning how much it might change - I apologize for coming off as encouraging it.

Here's what Kevin McCurley from NERDS said:

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** Taking a Deep Breath Here - Constrictor Rule **
Our argument against listing Green & Yellow Anacondas as well as Reticulated Pythons is STRONG! This we are sure of, the problem is getting this across in an arena that has the power to change.
How about, having a strong argument that has facts as ammo but has another element. How about if there was a glaring aspect that was hidden, something that was taken as a given when in fact it was not!
I can not let the cat out of the bag here but...... there has been something in the works since last year that is incredibly relevant and potent. Let's just say, the right people needed to see this and digest the facts. Now this hidden aspect is coming front and center.
There is more than a glimmer of hope here, I would love to clarify my cryptic words but that does not help anything and would only take away from the focus we currently are having. There is much going on behind the scenes.
USARK is on it, they know what to do with it, we MUST support them and believe in them. I have faith, we have THE weapon and now we are getting down to business. It is very simple which is wonderful, this is a rather black and white approach. In fact, I can not imagine how "this" could not turn things..... although I did not imagine luring teenage woman to join ISIS via social media would work either.
Stand strong, be focused, watch for USARK updates, support USARK and remain positive. When we ask for support, please do your best...... I think we are working on our most effective strategy yet!
EVILMORPHGOD - Kevin McCurley

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Read that on FB earlier. Very interested in eventually finding out what it is. I hope we can push through and at least remove the no crossing state lines part.

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Originally Posted by Rinne

Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.

If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.

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Isn't this considered conspiracy to break the law or something along those lines? Never condone law breaking, especially on the internet of all places where it is preserved forever in writing. You're essentially self incriminating, and if you end up in court, guess where they're going to have evidence? Right back to this post. Might as well discuss how to smuggle cocaine while you're at it.
As previously states, USFWS very well has the ability to check packages. If one of your "ball python" packages is checked and it's a burm or a retic, guess who's going to enjoy the next 5 years being locked up in prison?

I think all that Rinne was doing was just predicting what a lot of snake owners are going to do because of the ban, and I think it's true. If I was moving to another state and wanted to take my anaconda or retic with me, who's to stop me from just taking my snakes along for the ride? Will the ban be heavily enforced? No, it's not like they're going to have checkpoints along the road or have a special force team to track down people possessing snakes illegally. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It is the LAW and it's must be followed.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Isn't this considered conspiracy to break the law or something along those lines? Never condone law breaking, especially on the internet of all places where it is preserved forever in writing. You're essentially self incriminating, and if you end up in court, guess where they're going to have evidence? Right back to this post. Might as well discuss how to smuggle cocaine while you're at it.
As previously states, USFWS very well has the ability to check packages. If one of your "ball python" packages is checked and it's a burm or a retic, guess who's going to enjoy the next 5 years being locked up in prison?

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No it's not because I didn't say I was going to or planning to do that, did I? Did I say, "hey guys you should totally do this"? No I didn't! For the "friendliest online community" you guys sure love to pick on me just because I perhaps did not word it as well as I should have.

As clarified in my second post, I was merely making a point that some people will probably do this in order to question the effectiveness of this law. Like I said, I have shipped reptiles before - perfectly legal and correctly labeled. It was not a suggestion, nor my intention. I don't even OWN any of the snakes on this list, and the law is not even in effect yet! I am not condoning it, and I can see how maybe you could have taken it that way but again I did not say I was going to do that nor did I encourage anyone to.

Sheesh, you guys act like I said I was going to kill someone. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't even joke about that or you'll take me seriously then, too. Are all of you this hostile in real life too? Please don't read into my comments so much. I care about this hobby and I can admit it was poorly worded but please read my second post before you treat me like a criminal.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say they were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen. Some people will probably do that.

It's ok to beat up on the idea. But beating up the guy was a bit much I think.

Just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by A_Kap

I think all that Rinne was doing was just predicting what a lot of snake owners are going to do because of the ban, and I think it's true. If I was moving to another state and wanted to take my anaconda or retic with me, who's to stop me from just taking my snakes along for the ride? Will the ban be heavily enforced? No, it's not like they're going to have checkpoints along the road or have a special force team to track down people possessing snakes illegally. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It is the LAW and it's must be followed.

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Thank you, yes this is how I meant it. Glad at least 2 people have reading comprehension on this site. People are probably going to do this whether I posted that comment or not - doesn't mean I'm one of them. Again I can see how my first comment could have been taken the wrong way but please at least give me the benefit of the doubt until I clarify, I've never broken the law nor encouraged anyone else to...

Do we have any possible dates on when this lawsuit is going to draw to a conclusion?

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Do we have any possible dates on when this lawsuit is going to draw to a conclusion?

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Federal cases typically take years to completely play out. I also remember reading that this one has stalled at least once due to a judge change.

Hmm and it's a few years in now right? The lawsuit started in 2013? Hopefully only another year or two then. I don't know about anyone else but this has started my retic fever bad. I guess there's nothing like the allure of the banished. I will for sure be breeding SD retic morph combos as soon as we get this interstate travel thing lifted (or at least raising up my future collection of them).

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Originally Posted by Rinne

No it's not because I didn't say I was going to or planning to do that, did I? Did I say, "hey guys you should totally do this"? No I didn't! For the "friendliest online community" you guys sure love to pick on me just because I perhaps did not word it as well as I should have.

As clarified in my second post, I was merely making a point that some people will probably do this in order to question the effectiveness of this law. Like I said, I have shipped reptiles before - perfectly legal and correctly labeled. It was not a suggestion, nor my intention. I don't even OWN any of the snakes on this list, and the law is not even in effect yet! I am not condoning it, and I can see how maybe you could have taken it that way but again I did not say I was going to do that nor did I encourage anyone to.

Sheesh, you guys act like I said I was going to kill someone. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't even joke about that or you'll take me seriously then, too. Are all of you this hostile in real life too? Please don't read into my comments so much. I care about this hobby and I can admit it was poorly worded but please read my second post before you treat me like a criminal.

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You should go back and read your own post. The way it is written sounds as if it's encouraging an idea; an idea which happens to be a felony. "Poorly written" is an understatement, because it doesn't sound anything like you're "just making a point." It sounds much more like advice for committing a felony. That's just your own wording.
And poor wording will cost you if you ever end up in court.

What does is say about the community here if we were to encourage law-breaking? What would it say about reptile keepers if there's a news headline that says "Reptile breeders faces felony charges after smuggling GIANT PYTHON across the U.S.?" That ends up being demonization of herpetoculture, and the animal rights groups and the media will be all over a story like that like flies on cow manure. And if it links back to a post giving advice or suggesting an idea because your post sure as hell was not written from the aspect of "merely making a point," what does it say about the forum or its users?

Contrary to what you want to believe about your own post, it was not written like it was "merely making a point." Writing "If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway" sounds like condoning a felony in english to me, and everyone else who has read this.

Yes from Kevin McCurley on Retic Nation:
"** Update 3/19/15 **I am VERY EXCITED right now...... I think we just may have hit GOLD!!!! I have been talking to a LAW FIRM that is willing to get involved in our FIGHT!!!!!!!! He wants to help NERD ... which in turn helps all of us! This means, additional legal minds that can help refine all of our efforts! More legal minds means more angles and a more refined weapon!!! Presently we are overwhelmed, USARK has essentially a few attornies to deal with this ENORMOUS task!! Adding more Attornies and allowing these legal monsters to focus on the details can really help us in a KILLER way! This is no small legal firm or any of that..... this is a firm of LITIGATORS!!!! We may even have a NEW ANGLE to approach!!!!!! I was very impressed talking to this Yale schooled attorney and he is going to look over our case and if everything goes right he is going to HELP USARK and US be even BETTER!!!!! I have so much to say but we may have just got the REAL WEAPON we have been looking for... and a new angle regarding our New Listings!!! GET EXCITED, I AM!!!!!!!!!!! I think we may be able to play with the BIG BOYS AFTER ALL!!!!"

I'm starting to think as long as we are ALL active and loud with our voices and donate what we can, that we can pull through and have this reversed. I wish I was breeding and had hatchlings to donate for the USARK auctions too.

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

As an ecologist, I promise you that banning someone in Michigan from taking their retic to Wisconsin has no measurable effect on any ecosystem anywhere. For that matter, banning someone in Louisiana from taking their retic to Mississippi doesn't have any effect on any ecosystem anywhere. These snakes can ONLY survive winters in South Florida, meaning that this is solely a South Florida problem. And by 'creeping further north' how far 'north' are you talking? Mid-florida? The fact is these animals cannot survive further north than that.

It's not a matter of 'not listening to scientists' (as a scientist I'm usually hypersensitive to that sort of mentality) unless you're talking about the herpetological experts who are trying to explain that this is not a problem for forty-nine and a half states. No one is disputing the fact that invasive species are at least somewhat harmful to everglades ecology, and you don't see this sort of reaction to the laws demanding that people get permits or microchip their animals in South Florida or the hefty fines if your pet escapes there.
If you want to complain about people not listening to the experts, you picked the wrong side of this discussion.

If you're not vegan you really don't have the right to make such holier-than-thou statements. I mean, I realize that you probably consume responsibly, but if there's even the remote possibility that your meat came from somewhere in Hawaii where feral hogs are a major issue you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater good (same goes for cattle and egg/poultry farming... these operations are doing irreparable harm to irreplaceable ecosystems globally).
That last bit was sarcasm btw. I realize that this is ridiculous. Of course it is logical; these things do much more harm to the environment than people's pet snakes ever will, but no one in their right mind would try and change it because meat consumption isn't a niche market.

The everglades issue is a Florida issue. It shouldn't be a federal issue as these snakes cant live outside that state. Also a lot of the science they've used to determine whether or not these creatures can live farther north is flawed.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

As an ecologist, I promise you that banning someone in Michigan from taking their retic to Wisconsin has no measurable effect on any ecosystem anywhere. For that matter, banning someone in Louisiana from taking their retic to Mississippi doesn't have any effect on any ecosystem anywhere. These snakes can ONLY survive winters in South Florida, meaning that this is solely a South Florida problem. And by 'creeping further north' how far 'north' are you talking? Mid-florida? The fact is these animals cannot survive further north than that.

It's not a matter of 'not listening to scientists' (as a scientist I'm usually hypersensitive to that sort of mentality) unless you're talking about the herpetological experts who are trying to explain that this is not a problem for forty-nine and a half states. No one is disputing the fact that invasive species are at least somewhat harmful to everglades ecology, and you don't see this sort of reaction to the laws demanding that people get permits or microchip their animals in South Florida or the hefty fines if your pet escapes there.
If you want to complain about people not listening to the experts, you picked the wrong side of this discussion.

If you're not vegan you really don't have the right to make such holier-than-thou statements. I mean, I realize that you probably consume responsibly, but if there's even the remote possibility that your meat came from somewhere in Hawaii where feral hogs are a major issue you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater good (same goes for cattle and egg/poultry farming... these operations are doing irreparable harm to irreplaceable ecosystems globally).
That last bit was sarcasm btw. I realize that this is ridiculous. Of course it is logical; these things do much more harm to the environment than people's pet snakes ever will, but no one in their right mind would try and change it because meat consumption isn't a niche market.

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this was great, thankyou

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Originally Posted by BJK1995

Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative?

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You do realize the everglades issue isn't new? You should call up FWC and have a chat with someone about conditional species. There is already a licensing requirement implemented for the state. It's not particularly time consuming or difficult to achieve but it comes with a yearly fee and a requirement to microchip animals so if they're ever found in the wild you will face the consequences. You have to outline a preparedness plan that explains how animals will be secured and stored in the event of a disaster. The plan must include an outline of your facility indicating the locations of animals, equipment, exits routes, etc. You must also include emergency contacts for people qualified to assist in the handling of the animals as well as up to date veterinarian information. The licensing alone took care of any impulse buys from unqualified owners. If you're still not convinced ask FWC to send you the applications and have a look for yourself.

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Originally Posted by BJK1995

The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

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Maybe because our rights are being taken away based on outdated literature, biased "scientific" studies, and utter myths. Please explain to me the greater picture and how adding these snakes to the Lacey Act is going to do anything positive for the state of Florida and it's environment. Have you even read any of the "science" that the "scientific board" has presented that's being used to push these amendments through? It's so absurd I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry when I read some of that crap. It's obvious why they don't want it reviewed by a panel of their peers.

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Originally Posted by BJK1995

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

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Wow not sure where to start also I know that it's gonna be a waste of keystroke so I will keep it short I wasted enough time reading your post.

Brandon I remember when I was 19 like you and thought I knew everything, of course you are a biology student and want to save the planet (which is commendable) but while you are seeing A picture you are failing to see the REAL big picture.

People here are well aware that there is an issue in Florida no one has never denied this and solutions have been proposed in the past. The constrictor rule is based on junk science, paper written by so called scientist that are PAID by animals right activist (yes there is a much bigger picture here).Did you know that in one of those papers their modeling was showing that the burmese population could migrate as far north as washington DC :rofl: , YOU call that science? :rolleyes:

Now do you seriously think that banning interstate transportation (not allowing owners to take their pets when they move and becoming felons) will solve the issue in FL? If you do please enlighten us? How does banning interstate transportation solve the everglades issue?

BTW I do not own large constrictors nor do I make a living breeding snakes but I have a good grasp on the issue and what it can mean for the future of reptile keepers (including those keeping BTS, Leos like yourself) and exotic animal owners as a whole.

Oh and for the attitude of people on the forum, if you don't like it.....just don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

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Originally Posted by BJK1995

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

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We're selfish??? Your worried about a snake that can only thrive in less than half of one state that's going to "ruin millions of years of nature's work". Have you seen what humans have done to this planet and continue to do? I'm an Environmental Economics major and let me tell you that banning snakes should be the least of the governments concern right now. There's one invasive species of animal that is going to over populate the earth and destroy everything nature has ever made in the next couple of hundred years: humans. The government should fix what the human race is doing to this earth before worrying about a silly snake because let me tell you we are doing far worse damage then a burm or retic can.

Ok lets hurry and try to save the everglades now that we have destroyed most of it with our concrete jungles....... we as humans are the most invasive thing to this planet... go for a walk in the middle of any forest and look at all the trash you will find. There's a lot more going on in the everglades than the burm population.

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Originally Posted by BJK1995

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

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Dear BJK

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I, and most of the members of this site would like to see the Everglades National Preserve protected. We truly value the unique ecosystems that exist there. Unfortunately those ecosystems are under considerable threat, from a dangerous invasive species. That species is not however the Burmese python, or for that matter any of the pythons or Anacondas on the Lacey Act list. Human beings are the single largest threat to the preserve. if you research the history of the Everglades, you will quickly become convinced that the government is not to be trusted with the health or safety of the everglades. In fact the federal government actually gave the glades to Florida with the requirement that they be destroyed. Furthermore through the 1930's the federal government systematically assisted Florida in draining most of the glades and converting the vast swamp to farmland. People built cities on glades land and thousands of exotic species were introduced. here is a summary https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/south...s/threats.html Here is another summary http://www.nrdc.org/water/conservation/qever.asp

You will note that no matter where you look, when you talk to people who know what is going on, and when you talk with wild life managers in the field, urbanization and agriculture, and the water management that comes with those things is what is really destroying the glades. Most articles talking about the threats to the glades scarcely even discuss pythons, other than a casual mention. The fact that pollution is pouring into the glades, and life giving water is being choked off and redirected is a larger threat. The government is not trying to protect the glades with the ban on Pythons. The government is actually responsible for destroying the glades. The python ban is a response to certain special interest groups interested in destroying the pet trade.

Now right now, I am sure you are shaking your head at what I just wrote. Do some open minded research and look at the threats to the glades. You will quickly learn to believe me, because I am telling the truth.

Now please do me a favor. Go to this study https://usark.org/wp-content/uploads...mpfulltext.pdf Read the study carefully, it is written by scientists who have years of education and have studied the problem. These are people you can trust. Now tell me how this study indicates that these snakes are moving incrementally north like you suggested here "but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years." Read the conclusion of the study were the scientists state "our empirical observation on the effects of the cold weather event... cast doubt that Burmese pythons can become established and persist beyond the southern portion of the Florida peninsula." This important study lays waste to the idea that Burmese pythons will ever move north. "What makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing?" (Sorry to hang you on your own words.)

Now go to this study http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1805/20150120 and read the scientist's conclusions. Then go to the data, make sure to look in the supplement as well, some of the data is deliberately put in there so the scientists can skew their data. Now calculate the survival rate of Rabbits in the python infested areas and the survival rate in non python infested areas. You will be surprised to learn that rabbits are twice as likely to live in python infested areas than in non python infested areas. Do the math yourself. If you need help, you can go to this thread and see exactly how the government scientists, who are in the minority, are lying to you. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...erglades-study Once you have seen this with your own eyes, you will be shocked. You will put your head in your hands, and be shaken up. You won't want to believe it. here is the truth you won't want to believe. These scientists work for the government. The government wants the wealthy sugar cane industry in Florida. The government pays the scientist to get certain results, and the scientists do whatever is needed, no matter how dishonest, to get the results.

David

Lawsuit update!
http://usark.org/2015-blog/lawsuit-u...wsletter-4115/

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Lawsuit Update

USARK has been diligently working on several aspects of our lawsuit regarding the injurious listing of eight species of constrictor snakes under the Lacey Act. As posted earlier, USARK sent a letter to FWS on March 16 requesting an extension of the effective date for the latest listing, which includes Reticulated pythons and Green anacondas. The Reptile Nation was only given 30 days from the federal register publishing of the finalized rule on March 10 before FWS enforces import and interstate transportation bans of the newly-listed species.

We received a response from FWS denying this extension request yesterday (3/31/15). This was expected and USARK has not simply been waiting around hoping FWS would grant an extension. In their response, FWS showed complete disregard for the majority of our letter.

Since we were expecting rejection from FWS, our preliminary injunction (PI) simply needed a quick edit to include mention of this denial letter. The PI was filed today (4/1/15) along with a motion for a temporary restraining order (TRO) and proposed order to be signed by Judge Moss granting the TRO and motion for relief (or PI). The TRO will expedite the process. Judge Moss has already scheduled a conference with the attorneys to set a schedule for briefing the motion.

It would be an understatement to say the USARK complaint and motion for relief are strong. The Reptile Nation could not have a better case or team working on this lawsuit.

Since filing our complaint in late 2013, USARK has continued to build this case. This followed a document sent to FWS Director Dan Ashe and presented personally by USARK President Phil Goss and the USARK D.C. team to senior staff from the Department of the Interior (DOI) and FWS earlier in 2013. Among many other aspects, this document highlighted faults with the agency's compliance with regulatory procedures and an overall lack of reasoned analysis.

Members of the Reptile Nation received validation of USARK's intention and competence to proceed with a lawsuit, if needed, in a newsletter following this 2013 meeting with the DOI and FWS:

"We oppose the listing of any of the remaining species and are committed to fighting any such restrictions with all of the resources at our disposal. Our legal case is strong and we fully intend to fight for the rights of our members to protect their freedom to engage in their passion." - USARK President Phil Goss (2013)

The strength of our case far surpasses impressive. USARK has worked tirelessly to build this formidable suit. The Reptile Nation can stand proudly and USARK appreciates your continued support.

Links to documents:

FWS Denial Letter: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...al-3.31.15.pdf

USARK Preliminary Injunction: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo..._PI-4.1.15.pdf

USARK TRO: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...iew-4.1.15.pdf

USARK Proposed Order: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...der-4.1.15.pdf

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