The Age Old Question

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Somebody posted that it is NOT just the hungry rats that bite. In my experience I have found that to be true on numerous occasions.

Sometimes my :snake: won't take the rat. Thus, I'm forced to cage it. I feed and water it well. I then offer the rat up again in a few days. Many times these well fed rats have offensively attacked my snake.
Needless to say I immediately grabbed the rat!

This is why I now feed by hand, while the rat is trying to bite me.:O

Which reminds me, I'm getting off here now to get on EBay to buy some long hemostats. The long tongs won't hold the rats.

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Why on earth are you feeding live rats anyways ? There is simply no need IMHO .

One it's just cruel on the rats , at least in the wild they have a chance of escaping and try and run . In a confined space they get cornered and fight back to save their lives . Google snakes bit by rats !!! Scary what damage they can do to your precious snakes who don't quite as pretty with scarred heads or eyes missing !!

Should we start a separate thread for the live vs f/t debate? It still seems to be going strong...

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Why on earth are you feeding live rats anyways ? There is simply no need IMHO .

One it's just cruel on the rats , at least in the wild they have a chance of escaping and try and run . In a confined space they get cornered and fight back to save their lives . Google snakes bit by rats !!! Scary what damage they can do to your precious snakes who don't quite as pretty with scarred heads or eyes missing !!

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It isn't any more 'cruel' to feed live than it is for them to live their lives crammed into a petstore cage with ten other rats (maybe someone else has access to more humane pet stores, but I've not seen them). If you want rats and snakes to live naturally, you shouldn't keep them in captivity.

Instead of googling 'snakes bit by rats' you should search this forum for people who responsibly live-feed. Sometimes BPs will only eat live (this is also the case with many wild rescue animals I've worked with through the years) so sometimes there IS a need to feed live. If my BP would take f/t I'd do that simply bc it's easier, but she will literally starve herself to the point of losing weight if you offer her anything other than live prey.

Part of owning a snake is being willing to do whatever it takes to give that snake the best life possible. In the case of animals that won't take pre-killed prey, that means feeding live.

Sorry I'm just not convinced ... There are so many ways of getting so called no feeders to feed . One of the less well known and possibly one of the weirdest methods is to simply put the non- feeding Royal in a rub /tub with the heated d/f rat or mouse and tape something that vibrates to the outside of the container (use your imagination ) . This wacky method has a very high success rate and the rat is unlikely to blind the precious Royal .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Sorry I'm just not convinced ... There are so many ways of getting so called no feeders to feed . One of the less well known and possibly one of the weirdest methods is to simply put the non- feeding Royal in a rub /tub with the heated d/f rat or mouse and tape something that vibrates to the outside of the container (use your imagination ) . This wacky method has a very high success rate and the rat is unlikely to blind the precious Royal .

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I'm aware of that method, and several more that just sound crazy but I've given them a try (like scenting the mouse with tuna juice of all things). I know they're supposed to work, and I've told my BP that but she just doesn't seem to listen to me.

Seriously though, I tend to gravitate toward 'hopeless case' adoptions, and I've spent over a decade working with reptiles. Heck, I've even convinced a snake that went blind to eat regularly. There are some animals that will just never adjust to pre-killed prey. You're right, many can be switched over, but blanket statements like "All snakes can do X" or "No snake does Y" are almost always wrong.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I'm aware of that method, and several more that just sound crazy but I've given them a try (like scenting the mouse with tuna juice of all things). I know they're supposed to work, and I've told my BP that but she just doesn't seem to listen to me.

Seriously though, I tend to gravitate toward 'hopeless case' adoptions, and I've spent over a decade working with reptiles. Heck, I've even convinced a snake that went blind to eat regularly. There are some animals that will just never adjust to pre-killed prey. You're right, many can be switched over, but blanket statements like "All snakes can do X" or "No snake does Y" are almost always wrong.

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Fair enough mate . Just differing opinions . I couldn't / wouldn't feed live for the two reasons I've already given ..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Sorry I'm just not convinced ... There are so many ways of getting so called no feeders to feed . One of the less well known and possibly one of the weirdest methods is to simply put the non- feeding Royal in a rub /tub with the heated d/f rat or mouse and tape something that vibrates to the outside of the container (use your imagination ) . This wacky method has a very high success rate and the rat is unlikely to blind the precious Royal .

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That sounds mean to the snake, wouldn't it stress them out? I've read up on this method, and some say that eventually the snake gets so annoyed with the rat/mouse that it eventually just eats it. It sounds like force feeding to me, I personally wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary. Am I right about this, or am I missing the point?


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

That sounds mean to the snake, wouldn't it stress them out? I've read up on this method, and some say that eventually the snake gets so annoyed with the rat/mouse that it eventually just eats it. It sounds like force feeding to me, I personally wouldn't do that unless absolutely necessary. Am I right about this, or am I missing the point?


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I think the goal is to get the snake to recognize the mouse as food so you don't have to do that every time. If you only have to do that a time or two I'd say it's probably not too stressful for the snake.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I think the goal is to get the snake to recognize the mouse as food so you don't have to do that every time. If you only have to do that a time or two I'd say it's probably not too stressful for the snake.

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Oh ok. I've heard of people who leave their snakes in with the mouse in a tiny container overnight, but I suppose it wouldn't be too bad if it was just a while. I understand the purpose now, thanks for the explanation.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Oh ok. I've heard of people who leave their snakes in with the mouse in a tiny container overnight, but I suppose it wouldn't be too bad if it was just a while. I understand the purpose now, thanks for the explanation.


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You only need to put it in the container for a very short time , sometimes just a few minutes as the vibrations seem to induce a feeding response .. I've read of some people who have odd ones that will ONLY eat when they're in a moving car !!

As to the vibrations ... Many years ago I had a Royal that had a RI . I cured it myself by putting the Royal in an enclosed container with a hand held nebuliser which was nebulising F10 . The nebuliser was vibrating strongly and I wondered if the Royal would be scared but after a few minutes I noticed the Royal completely wrapped around the nebuliser like an octopus . It did that EVERY time for the next 10 days !
That suggests that they actually like vibrations maybe it reminds them instinctively of live food !?
Could it have been trying to constrict the nebuliser ??

Petstores do sell vibrating dishes.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Petstores do sell vibrating dishes.


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which is why the phrase 'There's a sucker born every minute' is still so popular.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

which is why the phrase 'There's a sucker born every minute' is still so popular.

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Although .... if they work !??

Those vibrating food dishes are made by the same people who sell canned crickets so that the crickets look 'alive'. Seems pretty ridiculous to me, just another gimmick to separate people from their money. You say your reptile won't eat?? Just buy this vibrating food dish, you can put it in the bag along with your freeze dried canned mealworms, your shed aid, your calcisand, and your hot rocks.

I've been keeping snakes for over 30 years, I've been breeding them for about 24 years and ball pythons in particular for about 14 years and I have to admit that using a vibrator to feed your snake is a new one on me. Now I HAVE taken non-feeders for a long drive and sometimes it appeared to work, but there are always easier ways to do it. Do you really want to work THAT hard to get your snake to switch to frozen? Just feed the snake what it's willing to eat, if that means you need to feed it live, then feed it live. Most of the people that I know who actually breed snakes for a living and who keep thousands of animals feed live. Personally, MOST of my snakes eat frozen/thawed prey because that is my PREFERENCE. Just because some people prefer to feed live does NOT mean that they are dooming their pets to a horrible disfiguring death. Yes it CAN happen, I personally have SEEN it happen, but it is very very rare.

For over a decade now I've been volunteering with my local herp societies adoption committee. We take in unwanted animals and try to place them in good homes and I've seen some incoming animals in REALLY horrible condition. I've seen plenty of snakes coming in with rat bite scars, most of that is from people who simply toss a rat in the snake cage and then walk away, but I've seen even MORE snakes coming in half starved because 'the darn thing just wont eat...' I've taken a number of these animals home, tossed in a live rodent and guess what??? They DO eat. It's truly amazing.

As far as feeding in the cage. Many years ago I used to keep my snakes on wood chips and fed them their frozen thawed rats on paper plates. They did fine and I felt better about myself for not feeding them on a particulate substrate. Then one day I ran out of paper plates so I fed them without and guess what? They ate just fine that way too.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Those vibrating food dishes are made by the same people who sell canned crickets so that the crickets look 'alive'. Seems pretty ridiculous to me, just another gimmick to separate people from their money. You say your reptile won't eat?? Just buy this vibrating food dish, you can put it in the bag along with your freeze dried canned mealworms, your shed aid, your calcisand, and your hot rocks.

I've been keeping snakes for over 30 years, I've been breeding them for about 24 years and ball pythons in particular for about 14 years and I have to admit that using a vibrator to feed your snake is a new one on me. Now I HAVE taken non-feeders for a long drive and sometimes it appeared to work, but there are always easier ways to do it. Do you really want to work THAT hard to get your snake to switch to frozen? Just feed the snake what it's willing to eat, if that means you need to feed it live, then feed it live. Most of the people that I know who actually breed snakes for a living and who keep thousands of animals feed live. Personally, MOST of my snakes eat frozen/thawed prey because that is my PREFERENCE. Just because some people prefer to feed live does NOT mean that they are dooming their pets to a horrible disfiguring death. Yes it CAN happen, I personally have SEEN it happen, but it is very very rare.

For over a decade now I've been volunteering with my local herp societies adoption committee. We take in unwanted animals and try to place them in good homes and I've seen some incoming animals in REALLY horrible condition. I've seen plenty of snakes coming in with rat bite scars, most of that is from people who simply toss a rat in the snake cage and then walk away, but I've seen even MORE snakes coming in half starved because 'the darn thing just wont eat...' I've taken a number of these animals home, tossed in a live rodent and guess what??? They DO eat. It's truly amazing.

As far as feeding in the cage. Many years ago I used to keep my snakes on wood chips and fed them their frozen thawed rats on paper plates. They did fine and I felt better about myself for not feeding them on a particulate substrate. Then one day I ran out of paper plates so I fed them without and guess what? They ate just fine that way too.

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Well said. I prefer FT. One of my snakes prefer live. On a very rare occasion I can put a FT in and after a thorough inspection she will eat it. Most of the time she picks it up and dumps it in her water dish and returns to slithering back and forth in front of her doors. As soon as I put a live rat in bang! [emoji298]️its gone! Is it a pain in the butt to have to drive a two hour round trip to get a live rat? Yes but she's worth it :)


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SO, I'm still very new at this, having gotten my first BP just a few months ago. That being said I did a lot of research and disscussed our options with people that have kept and bred snakes for years. Probobly 90% of them said in- tank feeding was better for a BP as they are rarly get aggressive unless they smell mouse/rat anyway, and moving them can be a bit probematic. The few that recomemded a seperate feeding tubs were breeders that rarely handeled the individual snakes. We handle smpson almost dayly, and feed live (honestly I don't even use tongs, I just pull off his hide about an hour before feeding time, then drop he live mouse in from safe distance. This has the added benifit of a stunnned mousey. Sampson usully stikes it before it fully recovers and so far have had no issues.

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Originally Posted by Lyssa981

SO, I'm still very new at this, having gotten my first BP just a few months ago. That being said I did a lot of research and disscussed our options with people that have kept and bred snakes for years. Probobly 90% of them said in- tank feeding was better for a BP as they are rarly get aggressive unless they smell mouse/rat anyway, and moving them can be a bit probematic. The few that recomemded a seperate feeding tubs were breeders that rarely handeled the individual snakes. We handle smpson almost dayly, and feed live (honestly I don't even use tongs, I just pull off his hide about an hour before feeding time, then drop he live mouse in from safe distance. This has the added benifit of a stunnned mousey. Sampson usully stikes it before it fully recovers and so far have had no issues.

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Separate tank feeding ideology is a myth.

You will not find keepers of multiple large constrictors doing it, it will take all day and its dangerous, you will not find any keepers of venomous snakes doing it for obvious reasons. Think about that last one for a bit.


It's covered here.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...31#post2288531

And its covered probably hundreds of other times on various chat forums including this one.

If you have a method that works for you great, but there is no NEED to use a separate feeding cage.

I USED to feed in separate tubs, but I got lazy after our move from CA to WA and it doesn't seem to make a difference. Mine are messy eaters, so I might switch back over just for convenience of cleaning... My girl has squeezed the intestines out before... She's THAT aggressive when eating... She's kind of special :) If you have an eater like that, I'd totally recommend separate containers...

I feed my BP ft small rats because he will take them. He is also fed in the tank and has never struck at me once.
I also have a female 6 foot Sorong green tree that is fed small med live rats in the tank be cause she won't even look at ft and there is no way i will move a gtp in feed mode. That being said, a day or two after feeding you can take her right off her perch and they say you can't handle chondros. Point being, it all comes down to the snake and what works for you. IMHO feeding in the tank is fine.

I have heard separate tank feeding in useful for a number of reasons, not just to prevent aggression. Like Sweet4serpents said, for messy eaters it can save you the cleanup. Also encourages snakes to go into feed mode when they are in a separate container. If you are feeding live, the prey won't poop all over the enclosure or hide in places difficult for the snake to reach if you use a separate container. I of course am not experienced, and can not prove these things, but from research and talking to experienced people this is what o have learned. Of course in tank feeding seems like a fine option IMO. I have been feeding Marshall in his tank, no aggressive behavior or anything. Working well for me. Just figured I would share the info I have gathered on separate tank feeding, but by no means do I have experience in this.


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I use a seperate for him. I just put him in a box let him eat wait like 20 minutes to pick him up again and then put him back in his home.

The age old question indeed. The only time I fed outside the home enclosure was when I got my first snake back in 2008. I joined the forum shortly thereafter and learned I was making a big deal out of nothing.

I've fed all my snakes in their home enclosure since and never had issues. I've fed live, f/t, pre-killed. You name it. Hundreds of feedings and I've been bitten... maybe 3 times? Maybe?

It just makes very little sense to feed in a separate enclosure when you have more than one. Just a plain old waste of time.

Kinda surprised this is still a topic of conversation actually, lol.

Voted separate container but actually I do both so I really couldn't vote correctly. If I'm going to do a full substate change, or want to spot clean and get a weight before feeding then I'll use a separate container. On my lager snakes I'll just feed them in their tub and will swap out their tub when I do a deep cleaning on a non feeding day.

Didn't read 8 pages of comments but there is no debate on this topic with regard to ball pythons. There is literally no reason to pull them out of the enclosure and it can cause regurgitation and stress, and youre more likely to get bit transferring them back and forth while theyre in feeding mode.

What if neither of those things happen? I feed in a separate container and I've never been bitten, my snake has never regurgitated, it's easy cleanup (I can clean her enclosure while she eats) and she never refuses a meal? It works, so should I switch her to feeding in her tank simply because "it's what most herp hobbyists do?" I'm seeing a lot of "you should only feed in the tank, and anyone who puts their balls in a separate container to feed is stupid/doesn't know what they're doing/etc," but if it works, and it works well, is it really that big a problem?? I'm wondering if switching mine to feeding in the tank would be stressful since it's not what she's used to? Hmmmm...

She wouldn't care either way

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Originally Posted by O'Mathghamhna

What if neither of those things happen? I feed in a separate container and I've never been bitten, my snake has never regurgitated, it's easy cleanup (I can clean her enclosure while she eats) and she never refuses a meal? It works, so should I switch her to feeding in her tank simply because "it's what most herp hobbyists do?" I'm seeing a lot of "you should only feed in the tank, and anyone who puts their balls in a separate container to feed is stupid/doesn't know what they're doing/etc," but if it works, and it works well, is it really that big a problem?? I'm wondering if switching mine to feeding in the tank would be stressful since it's not what she's used to? Hmmmm...

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They're your snakes, do as you wish. One of the reasons for this debate is because there are many care sheets out there that advise feeding in a separate enclosure in order to avoid 'cage aggression'. This simply is not true for the overwhelming majority of ball pythons. Rather, it's MORE likely that individual snakes may feel too stressed to feed when moved to unfamiliar surroundings, OR some may feel too stressed when moving them after they've just fed triggering a regurgitation response, OR some may be stuck in feeding mode and continue striking at anything that moves long after they've swallowed their meal, AND some will not be bothered and will feed fine and not be stressed wherever they are.

Remember that these animals are individuals with unique personalities, they will react to different stimuli in different ways. Let your snake be your teacher, observe them and treat them in the way that causes the best reaction. As long as it doesn't cause harm, then do as you wish.

Wow! I have mustard gas wounds and campaign ribbons from fighting this war in the past :rofl::rofl::rofl:

And there's STILL no reason to feed a BP outside it's enclosure.

MARKS,

I like your response the best. I recently posted about this and one of the response told me that it is pretty much "industry standard" to feed in the enclosure. That may be true. With my setup though, because he currently likes to hang out in his warm hide, I would either have to (a) dangle the prey in front of the hide, and wait for him to strike out, or (b) lift up the hide and then feed him. Given the size of the hide and the way he curls up inside, and how he wrapped when he fed, I don't see him eating in the hide. I suppose option C is to wait until he is wandering outside and attempt to feed. Personally, I think I'd like to keep feeding him in the separate container so that he does build an association that being in that container means it is food time. Assuming they can form such associations. Plus, it does give me an opportunity to observe and also review his habitat while he eats, as others have said.

I handle my young bp a lot tbh, I also keep changing his setup when he is wandering around.
So, I always feed him in his enclosure using very long tweezers (frozen mice) and until today I've had like no problems with substrate or something like that except one time when he didn't get a small piece of wood out of his mouth after eating but he allowed me to take it out without complaining
Furthermore he never confused my hand with food even if he's very hungry :D

I guess it's always depending on the substrate you are using and, as always, the character of your snake^^

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Originally Posted by MarkS

They're your snakes, do as you wish. One of the reasons for this debate is because there are many care sheets out there that advise feeding in a separate enclosure in order to avoid 'cage aggression'. This simply is not true for the overwhelming majority of ball pythons. Rather, it's MORE likely that individual snakes may feel too stressed to feed when moved to unfamiliar surroundings, OR some may feel too stressed when moving them after they've just fed triggering a regurgitation response, OR some may be stuck in feeding mode and continue striking at anything that moves long after they've swallowed their meal, AND some will not be bothered and will feed fine and not be stressed wherever they are.

Remember that these animals are individuals with unique personalities, they will react to different stimuli in different ways. Let your snake be your teacher, observe them and treat them in the way that causes the best reaction. As long as it doesn't cause harm, then do as you wish.

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Awesome, this is how I feel about the issue... If it works for your snake and it's what they're used to, great. But if you have problems feeding, go ahead and just feed them in the tank. Thanks for your input!

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Originally Posted by Slim

And there's STILL no reason to feed a BP outside it's enclosure.

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Even if it's what they're used to and they've been feeding without issue this way for years? Should I just start feeding her in the tank anyway?

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Originally Posted by Slim

And there's STILL no reason to feed a BP outside it's enclosure.

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Sarcasm doesn't always translate well in a web forum. My bad LOL

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Originally Posted by O'Mathghamhna

Even if it's what they're used to and they've been feeding without issue this way for years? Should I just start feeding her in the tank anyway?

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Honestly, if it works for you and your snakes, I say rock on with it :salute:

LOL my bad, I'm slow when it comes to online sarcasm... I guess if I ever do encounter any problems, then I'll switch. My albino black pastel BP is on a winter hunger strike right now, so I'll try feeding in the tank with him and see if that works. :)

My first post to this website, so why not go with a highly controversial subject? lol

I'm a total noob in regard to BPs, having just got my first one a little over a month ago. Already read Kevin McCurley's book as well as Collette Sutherland's, so I've done some amount of research (apart from loads of threads online).

I was told that the BP that I bought (~2 year old female from a local reptile store) had always been fed live and outside of the enclosure. To be honest, I don't have an incredibly passionate opinion on this whole subject, but there are a few reasons why I've maintained the same practice that the shop had. As a note, my whopping 5 feedings thus far (yeah, I'm a noob) have all gone off without a hitch.

1. She had always been eating live and outside of the enclosure, so to avoid 'acceptance of food issues' I figured I'd just be consistent. I wouldn't mind experimenting with different methods though.
2. Although I believe that a little bit of substrate will likely not harm the animal, outside feeding completely avoids this (much in the way feeding pre-killed will always avoid bite-related injury to the snake). This second point isn't a big motivating factor for me feeding outside the enclosure, but it's something.
3. Now here's the sticky one that I have yet to see anyone post about. Like many of you, I have more than one hide in my enclosure. I have a hot-side one (above the UTH) and a cold side one. My concern about leaving a live rat in there is that since 100% supervision is required when dealing with a live rat, the possibility exists that the rat will simply "hide out" in whatever hide is currently unoccupied by the BP. If the rat is smart (whole different debate), it would just avoid the BP for as long as possible. If I'm going to supervise the kill, I really don't want to sit in front of the vivarium for an extended period of time waiting for the rat to get adventurous, leave the hide, and get snagged. I find that my separate cardboard box (4' x 1.5') feeding enclosure has been great, and time from 'placement of rat' to 'rat fully consumed' is around 15-20 minutes.

I would have no problem being swayed to feeding in the enclosure, but I'd really like to hear some thoughts on my 3rd point.

At the end of the day, I hope everyone's BPs are enjoying their meals!

Do what works for you. There isnt 1 way to do it right over the other..and I dont care about all the arguing over feeding in enclosure vs. Out of enosure... Just do what wrks for your animal. I have had many snakes ovr the years..some I fed in enclosure, others I have not, bc thats what they were use to. Frankly, for me, I prefer feeding out of their enclosure bc it gives me time to really pick thru and clean while they are out to dinner.

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On a side note.. A rodent that is live should never be left unattended in a snakes enclosure. Too much risk to the snake.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Frankly, for me, I prefer feeding out of their enclosure bc it gives me time to really pick thru and clean while they are out to dinner.

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This is why I like to feed Yigg outside of his enclosure. While he's eating, it gives me a chance to spot-clean, refresh his water, and otherwise check on things in his tank. I also like it for ensuring that he gets handled (however briefly) at least once a week; I also weigh him just before feeding as well, so I can keep close track of his weight.

He hasn't shown any signs of stress or refusal to eat in the six months I've had him, so it's working for us!