Another pitbull kills, this time a little girl

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Originally Posted by kilopular

This whole argument reminds me I can't get an apartment because of my golden retriever chow chow mix because he's part chow. Because they're considered dangerous. Yet he is perfect around people and I've worked with him around other dogs.

And when I go to the dog park, who's dog is starting the fight and being threatening? Not mine. Who's owner is shrugging the behavior off, not controlling their precious angel, and ignoring their dog? Not me.

Its the owner. Not the animal.

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The golden is probably making a lot of the difference. Chows are usually one-person dogs. They, and a lot of the asian breeds, are also typically more independent than the european breeds. This combination of basic traits can result in problems with strangers, especially if the dog is not well socialised. I used to groom a chow at the vet hospital where I once worked. She 'trusted' me and I *still* had to muzzle her to work with her. But if anyone not-me came by she would lunge and snarl, and once that muzzle was off and she was in a kennel? No one but the owners could get near her.

Pit bulls can make great pets, but saying they aren't more dangerous than other breeds is like saying a Reticulated python isn't more dangerous than a ball python.

The argument about bite frequency is also completely irrelevant. Pit bulls are genetically different than other breeds. They have the ability to inflict significant damage. Is a nippy ball python that always bites more dangerous than a tame 15ft retic??

Let's get real. In the grand scheme of "dangerous dogs" (and we all know any dog can be dangerous) pit bulls overwhelmingly top the charts on factual data. In the 9-year period from 2005 to 2013, pit bulls killed 176 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (283). Yet they made up 4% of the dog US population. Because of bad owners? German Shepards have the same population, and are actually referred to as a dangerous breed as well being responsible for 3.5% of dog attack fatalities from 2005-2013. You are 18 times more likely to be killed by a pit bull than a German Shepard. Is it because German Shepard owners are more responsible than pit bull owners? Does the breed make an owner feel less inclined to be responsible? Does it matter?

Untrained dogs and abuse happens to all breeds, and even more so to most populous breeds. The difference is the ability of the breed to cause damage, thus highly increasing the chance for victim fatality. Would you rather be bit, than killed?? The majority of pit bulls responsible for deaths aren't abused fighting dogs either. They are pets.

I completely understand there are perfect pit bulls out there. Wouldn't harm a fly. I also know of a pit bull that were perfect for years and was quoted as "lick you to death" pit, than ended up killing a grown woman. This was completely unexpected and I have to ask myself how?

I like to see things without rose colored glasses on. I always felt it was healthy to be honest with myself even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I was an athlete growing up and my parents would be the first ones to say "Brant, you sucked today." I love all dogs. I own a Bulldog named Toby and my family owns a German Shepard named Rocky, Golden Retriever named Mason and a Pit mix named Lucy. The Pit mix is probably the nicest one. However, I can still read facts at the end of the day and understand that Lucy has the highest potential to cause serious and fatal injuries on someone else based on her genetics from her breed.

Just as large constrictor owners should know their animals are more dangerous, so should dog owners with pit bulls. Doesn't mean you can't own them, it just takes a higher responsibility than your average dog owner, much as owning a 20ft snake would. I'm sure people aren't going to see things exactly the same way as me, and that's cool. I think it's important with all things to take a step back and critically think unbiasedly.

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Pit bulls are genetically different than other breeds.

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Not sure how you come to that conclusion when they are descended directly from a mix of older still existent breeds. I doubt the "new" genetic interactions resulted in an animal that is all that different from what existed before.
We aren't even talking about a combination as unlikely or significantly different from anything that went before as that involved in creating bateaters.

Cant back up apples and oranges.................

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

In the 9-year period from 2005 to 2013, pit bulls killed 176 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (283).

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This is not accurate, it includes mixes and unidentifiables. Here in SA if it has short hair and a muscular build guess what classification it is? This includes the one SAPD shot that was roaming a neighborhood. I cant find the photo anymore but it was clearly a boxer laying there with 6 shots in him.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Yet they made up 4% of the dog US population.

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Again, this only includes registered breeds. All the backyard breeders are not included.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Not sure how you come to that conclusion when they are descended directly from a mix of older still existent breeds. I doubt the "new" genetic interactions resulted in an animal that is all that different from what existed before.
We aren't even talking about a combination as unlikely or significantly different from anything that went before as that involved in creating bateaters.

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Its because you need a key for their "locking jaws" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

So far the stats I see are skewed as usual. Just like the 130 pound pit bull in the story that isn't really a pit bull but is added to the list. You should look at the stats from the USHS on snake bites. It's pathetic as well because the USHS is a joke that lobbies for $ but does little for the animals. Pythons being called boa constrictors, boa constrictors being called venomous LOL!

Once again, I ask; If the prison system is proportionately populated with more black males in the US should we deem black males dangerous?

What an absolute crock.

Lets take a look at the GSD or other breeds argument,,,. How many gang bangers are out screwing up any other breed of dog? Once the pit fell in favor of the drug and violence crowd there was a huge increase in the frequency of strays and a abused pit bulls. Homie/gang banger brother didn't care if he left his "status symbol" pit bull home, without ever being played with or socialized. He didn't care if his little sister and mom were the only ones home when he went out to get high and party. Then the dog, now bigger, unsocialized and frustrated acts out. It's a typical scenario.

Individuals are dangerous, not breeds or groups of people.

The idea of some "shotgun" approach to make permits, and interviews and whatever else the norm for all pit bull owners is complete BS!

Sure, there are people that should not own dogs. IMO a very large percentage of people shouldn't, but we here in the US are also free and we have the right to pursue happiness, and we should have the government working for us and not regulating every little thing we do.

Once again, I'm shocked that somebody from a reptile forum would bring this type of thing up.

Just remember in the eyes of the brilliant law makers, CONSTRICTOR covers every snake that constricts to kill it's prey. Then go read some of the proposed legislation regarding snakes as pets. Your harmless, BP is now a DANGEROUS animal. Yep,,, that's how it happens.

As stated earlier,,, Blame the Deed, Not the Breed.


OH Lord its a dog fight!!!

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/IMG_2899.jpg

Comparing a ball python to a reticulated python is comparing two different species. There are absolutely differences between species, differences in care, housing, handling, behavior, etc. But when you compare a pit bull type dog to any other dog, you ate comparing the same species, the same species that needs to be housed, cared for and trained the same way, with differences only due to size and athletic potential. But that difference in size and athletic potential ate again regardless of breed. Does a pit bull type dog have the potential to cause more harm than a pomeranian? Sure does, not because of its breed but because of its size. Likewise a 200 pound mastiff has the potential to cause more harm than a 50 pound pit bull type dog.

Statistics about dog bites and fatalities are so flawed its not even funny. The first biggest problem is most dogs are incorrectly identified. Short fur and blocky build are automatically labeled pit bull, whether the dog in question is an Am Staff, mastiff, Labrador, or boxer. Next statistics are extremely easy to manipulate to prove your point. In scientific literature it is best to see the whole data set ands not just the statistics, so the reader knows where the stats came from. The problem with dog stats is you aren't given the full data set, ever, because its simply not available. In other words, stats about dog bites are pretty near completely useless.

Just to add to all the excellent points already made here is a picture of my "vicious killer" that was the bait dog I talked about in page one that will apparently kill my other dogs and son with her locking jaw because I let them interact... she weights a whooping 56 pounds better watch out!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/aha7umad.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/atubu7ys.jpg

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Just to add to all the excellent points already made here is a picture of my "vicious killer" that was the bait dog I talked about in page one that will apparently kill my other dogs and son with her locking jaw because I let them interact... she weights a whooping 56 pounds better watch out!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/aha7umad.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/atubu7ys.jpg

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Nice looking dog there brother!!

Our new female rescue is black like that with the white patches and toe trim! I need to get pictures of her up too.

Our pit barely cracks 50 pounds and gets on with our male presa just great. I can't think of a better rescue than what we got when we rescued her. There are some excellent books written by the Colby family on this breed of dog and so many positive stories that rarely get the press time that the bad incidents get.


Oh,,,oh looky here,,,, a drug dealer with a pit bull but then,,,,,,,,,,,,,http://www.cerebralcanine.com/?p=40

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Pit bulls can make great pets, but saying they aren't more dangerous than other breeds is like saying a Reticulated python isn't more dangerous than a ball python.

The argument about bite frequency is also completely irrelevant. Pit bulls are genetically different than other breeds. They have the ability to inflict significant damage. Is a nippy ball python that always bites more dangerous than a tame 15ft retic??

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I do completely agree with you that if you own these animals you have to treat them with the respect they are owed. The fatalities from "harmless" animals come from people ignoring or forgetting the fact that their animals can kill them. I for one will never forget or not adhere to proper protocols that keep me safe when dealing with large constictors and large breeds of dogs. I also, wouldn't allow a small breed to have access to a infants room.

Since when were pure pit bulls 130 lbs!?:O Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't an American pit bull (40-55 lbs).... It had to be some type of mix. "Pit Bull" is a misused label and might as well stand for a mutt these days because they are typically all mixed up or Bully mixes. However, it is very saddening that this had to happen too this beautiful young girl. My heart goes out to her parents. I cannot imagine the pain they are going through. :(

to* not too:stupidme:

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Originally Posted by MicheC

Since when were pure pit bulls 130 lbs!?:O Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't an American pit bull (40-55 lbs).... It had to be some type of mix. "Pit Bull" is a misused label and might as well stand for a mutt these days because they are typically all mixed up or Bully mixes. However, it is very saddening that this had to happen too this beautiful young girl. My heart goes out to her parents. I cannot imagine the pain they are going through. :(

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I agree this is sad,

and I also ask WHY??? Why is a young child left alone with a 130 dog? These details are what's left out, and THESE mistakes are what get problems like this into the news.

The individual dog could have been unstable, the child may or may not have done something, but certainly people should know that kids and dogs together need to be supervised. Even a playful puppy can quickly overwhelm a child not prepared for the excitement. And puppies have very sharp teeth that cut.

My kids will watch me get our dogs cranked up and have great fun, but when they try it and see that the dogs even in play mode are too big they quickly learn the boundaries which I warn them about when they start the horseplay.

Every time we have company, whether it be the friends of our children, or adults that are not familiar with our dogs, we simply put the dogs in their crates, and close the door to the room they are in. End of any conflicts right there.

If we want to make introductions, they are done around a play situation with a ball or something to occupy the dogs and then sniffing and petting can happen later.

These are just common sense practices that should be followed with any dog. I'm quite certain the parents of our children's friends would not be so friendly if their child was knocked over or scratched by one of our dogs.

Or if their kid stuck a pencil in my dog's nose and the dog reacted the only way it knows how to say; "Hey that hurts stop!" A nip would be deemed a "Vicious attack on a poor, innocent child".

I simply avoid these situations by not allowing people outside of the family to be with the dogs unless we are there to supervise.

Dogs typically don't know any better but people should.

If more people actually followed the SIMPLE laws of leashing and containment 95% of all dog related issues would go away. No need to neuter or spay if there are no dogs running around off leash and free, no more runners or bikers being chased by dogs, which by the way is a prey drive response and not always defensive or aggressive.

Basically, responsible ownership is they key. That includes any type of pet.

Which leads to what this board is about; Keeping reptiles.

I'm sure about everybody here has cringed when they've seen somebody come asking questions out of the blue about getting a giant snake species for their first snake. It's not the snake that is dangerous, but the situation sure is.

I won't call a reticulated python dangerous. It is what it is, but if I went and brought a 14+ foot retic home tomorrow, I'd say that would be a problem down the road since I'm not well versed in their behavior, or care. Is the snake dangerous, or was I impulsively stupid and unprepared?

Anyhow, I can't really change minds of people who are convinced pit bulls as a whole are dangerous.

Just like those who are convinced snakes are evil and dangerous, you'll never know the true joy and fulfillment of owning something so special.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I love all dogs. I own a Bulldog named Toby and my family owns a German Shepard named Rocky, Golden Retriever named Mason and a Pit mix named Lucy. The Pit mix is probably the nicest one. However, I can still read facts at the end of the day and understand that Lucy has the highest potential to cause serious and fatal injuries on someone else based on her genetics from her breed.

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This is what I mean by educating yourselves when it comes to Pitties. By your logic (however flawed it may be) Lucy and Toby BOTH have the highest potential to cause serious or fatal injuries. Toby, being a Bulldog, is clumped into the "Pit Bull Type" group. Making him a pit bull in the eyes of the law and other people. When you see Pit Bull at the top of a bite chart or fatality chart just remember that there are about 20+ breeds. Divide that high bite/fatality percentage by the number of breeds in "Pit Bull Type" and you will find that the individual breeds make up hardly ANYTHING :) http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/29/suhy2ary.jpg

Speaking of "vicious" pit bull type dogs... Between my two dogs, it is the "pit bull" (she's a mutt, but has at least some kind of bully breed in her) who is safer around my child. Now granted I do NOT leave my child unsupervised with the dogs, it is the non-pittie dog (another mutt who has some kind of Nordic breed in her and goodness knows what else) who is more nervous and frightened around her, and because of that she's more dangerous. She's more likely to growl, and I expect nip, if pushed to her limit. My pittie dog is much more relaxed, easy going, and will walk away before she reaches her limit. The biggest problem I have with my child and the pittie is keeping my child out of the dog's bed! (That's her "safe retreat".) Between the two dogs, the pittie is much more submissive. The non-pittie can be kind of witchy (you know what I mean) and bossy. She's great with adults, but not so much with kids. Both dogs are equally likely to start a fight with each other (yes I supervise their interactions too). Its the pittie who will listen to me better when I tell them to knock it off, and usually the non-pittie who gets separated to cool down. Usually the fights come about because the pittie gets too rambunctious and hyper, other dog tells her to knock it off, she doesn't, other dog gets more aggressive in telling her to knock it off, she doesn't back down, and if I don't separate them by this point (usually I've intervened before then) it escalates. Around strangers the non-pittie is better, but that's largely because I've had her since she was 2 month old puppy and have trained and socialized her well. We got the pittie when she was a year old, and she came to us nervous and frightened, like an abused or neglected dog. She's always been nervous around strangers, especially men. We've gotten her to the point where she can be introduced successfully to strangers, without her cowering in the corner and growling (my other dog has actually helped in this aspect, being her therapy dog and helping her to feel more comfortable around strangers!). She's never actually bitten anyone, but I know darn well she will given the right circumstances. So we make sure those circumstances don't occur. Most times we have visitors we put the dogs away in their crates in another room, that way we don't have to worry about ANY accidents. Only times we don't do this is when the visitors are people the dogs know well and trust, and people we can trust as well.

Now when it comes to prey drive... the pittie definitely has a stronger prey drive. If the prey sits still she'll point (between behavior and physical traits, I suspect she has some pointer in her too), but if it moves there's no stopping her. She's killed ground squirrels, gophers, chickens, and even a stray cat that got into our yard. The other dog will chase, but so far hasn't killed anything, even when she cornered it (BUT being a dog, I do know she's capable of killing another animal, and given the right circumstances it will happen). Despite her very strong prey drive, this pittie is also very highly trainable. She's got a great recall, and she obeys the "leave it" command like none other I've personally worked with. Even though she's killed several chickens, I've successfully worked at training her to leave the chickens alone, and now they may as well not even exist as far as she's concerned. I do expect with the right circumstances she can and will kill a chicken again, but as a testament to her good temperament and trainability, we have one chicken who will NOT stay where she belongs, insists on being a "pet" in the main yard where the dogs live, and NEITHER of my dogs even bat an eye at her. They are happy to hunt ground squirrels and gophers. This dog is also great with my indoor-only cats, even though she killed the stray cat in our yard (leading me to believe its a combination of not just prey drive, but also a protective drive to keep strange animals out of her yard). Again, given the right circumstances, I know darn well she's capable of hurting or killing another animal, and for that reason I make sure I don't allow those circumstances to happen (although I HAVE given up keeping that one chicken, as long as she's going to be allowed to free range, she'll go where she wants, but I've accepted the fact I could lose another chicken that way too, whether it be my dogs or a coyote or hawk or whatever other predator). Its about responsibility. If you are going to keep a potentially dangerous animal, you need to make sure you are keeping it properly housed and cared for, handle it properly, train and socialize (where applicable), and make sure you avoid those circumstances you know can result in an accident. In my personal opinion, ALL dogs have the potential to cause harm, no matter how big or small or how friendly. A friendly large dog can knock over a person, and given the right circumstances (person falls wrong, or is an elderly person with fragile bones, breaks a bone) serious harm can result. An aggressive small dog can seriously harm or even kill a child. A small dog can seriously harm an adult in some circumstances (a bite to the face, for example). An aggressive large dog can cause serious harm for obvious reasons. Its just about responsibility, and just like irresponsible reptile keepers, it is the irresponsible dog keepers that give the rest of us a bad name.

I will say, this thread has really opened my eye to the label of pit bull, I honestly thought pit bull just simply was short for the american pit bull terrier, I never knew it was an umbrella term in some of these statistics and laws. Seeing how that can heavily skew statistics, I'm surprised I never heard about it sooner.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I will say, this thread has really opened my eye to the label of pit bull, I honestly thought pit bull just simply was short for the american pit bull terrier, I never knew it was an umbrella term in some of these statistics and laws. Seeing how that can heavily skew statistics, I'm surprised I never heard about it sooner.

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Yup it sucks.... it is an umbrella term for AT LEAST 15 breeds of dogs... I'm sure there are more.

Thats why you alwqys see me posting that there is no such thing as a "pitbull"
Its just a blanket term

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Originally Posted by omnibus2

It's funny how every single time something like this happens, there are boats of people who rush in the defend the dog, saying ridiculous statements like "it wasn't the dogs fault", or "the dog shouldn't be put down", or better yet "it's the girl's fault".

Yet, when once in a blue moon you hear about a python attacking somebody, the snake is demonized, and everyone demands that it's a public safety hazard and that all snakes should be banned.
Your thoughts?

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This is what everyone is referring to. Whether implied or not, you say it's okay for dogs to be restricted but it's not okay for snakes.

It's ignorant (which, by the way means lacking experience or understanding not stupid) to create breed specific legislation or stereotypes.

The dog will be destroyed and that will be the end of it.

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I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First to compare a domesticated animal to a non domesticated exotic is asinine. But anyway

I use to work at a local shelter and I did dog behavior evaluations. That's right, I would go into a small room with a dog I never met and pretty much mess with him. People always asked if I was scared of the pit bulls. I said no way. Pitties tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves. They are wiggly silly pups. There were a couple that were a bit more tense, but I could ALWAYS read a pit bull. In fact the few bites I did get were from small dogs, and the 2 dogs that made my blood run cold were a husky mix and a gold retriever.

Pit bulls are NOT naturally aggressive towards people. Even fighting dogs (which I have dealt with) are not people aggressive. What would be the point of having a fighting dog if you could never handle it? They is a streak of dog aggression, which seemed to be in more pits than most. Not all were dog aggressive but it was seen a lot. Dogs cannot generalize. A dog aggressive dog does not equal a people aggressive dog. period.

These dogs do need a special person for them due to the fact they have A TON of energy and without training lack impulse control. So do most young labs lol.

Most the dogs bite case are horribly skewed and we very rarely get all the facts. All sorts of dogs are IDed as Pit Bull because that's what gets a bigger reaction. The media has destroyed this breed. Couple that with the fact that often these dogs are unaltered and chained up when the bite happens. Take a dog with a ton of energy, low impulse control, then chain him up all day. The risk of a bite increase drastically.

The other problem with the whole thing is many dog owners are clueless when it comes to dog behavior. Even when they watch their kids with a dog they aren't picking up the signs that the dog is uncomfortable and wants the child to go away. To dogs hugging is rude and kissing on the nose is risky at best. I see "cute" pictures on facebook of kids riding dogs, pulling at their ears and faces all the time. Everyone says it's adorable but it's dangerous, many times the dog's face is screaming that he is not comfortable with what is going on.

Pitties make great pets! I will probably never have one because I really don't have the energy for one. But I still love the breed. They are so silly and sweet.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Thats why you alwqys see me posting that there is no such thing as a "pitbull"
Its just a blanket term

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In all reality they are Bulldogs. The "Pit" was added when the were used in the fighting pit in days gone by.

The bull and terrier combined with pit made the American Pit Bull Terrier. UKC United Kennel Club registration name. And the American Staffordshire Terrier. AKC American Kennel Club name. Pete The Pup from Little Rascals fame was the first duel registered UKC/AKC bulldog.

Not to be confused with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or The Bull Terrier (Spuds Mckenzie) dog.

For anybody looking for info on the breed, there are several publications that have breed history from early days until now.

The Colby family was very influential in the early development of these dogs. There is a book written by one of the Colby's that I own and it's CO. authored by Diane Jessup, an animal control officer that trains and works with the breed.


What I find refreshing in many of the comments here, is that owners of pit bulls have not only a knowledge of the breed, but some basic knowledge of dog behavior. Using terms like "prey drive" "defense drive" "play drive" and other relatively unknown terms to the typical golden retriever owner who just buys a dog to have one and bases the decision on the hearsay that they are the best family dogs.

Responsible pit bull owners will normally be the ones OBEYING all of the leash laws, while others will let little fluffy run off leash and tell everybody how friendly he is while he barks and bites the ankles of the next bicyclist that rides by.

Having been involved in protection dog competitions with our dogs and training with others, I can tell you there is more diligence making sure the said dogs are in control and stable and bred to be stable than most other dog owners use. I'm applying this to ALL great breeds that work on a field. GSD's, Mals, Rots, Dobies, presas, pits, black Russian terriers, american bulldogs the list goes on.


This is our dog being trained by our good friends at Red Star Kennel.

He is very young here and in the basic stages of sport work. This is a presa canario also known as a "dangerous breed" LOL!

This dog is as friendly, stable and driven as the come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Tmj4w9Dyo

http://alldogswelcome.com/bully-breeds.html I stand significantly corrected. Here are 42 different breeds which are considered a "bully breed" which is clumped into "Pit Bull Type".

Edit: I'm sure there are more. Any mutt that is mixed and looks like a bully (even if it isnt) will be considered a pit bull.

Here is our vicious killing machine.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/1/bella1.jpg
This was not staged.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/1/bella2.jpg


Oh no she's gona eat one!
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/1/bella3.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_5892.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_6920.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_6706.jpg

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1/100_5963.jpg

Yeah she is VICIOUS!!!!!!!


She is a 95lb American "Pit Bull" , an ADBA registered American Pit Bull Terrier. Also classified as an XXL American Bully.

She is dangerous........ To anyone who tries to harm her or anyone in her family. She gets along well with other dogs and people. That being said, she is a dog, she is BIG and she has sharp teeth. So she very well is a dangerous dog. As is any and all dogs, even the little ankle biters.

I haven't read through all the responses, but I thought I'd post my thoughts since they seem to be slightly different perspective-wise

I believe the OP was saying that permits, rather than bans would solve these issues (i.e. idiots buying dangerous animals then causing havoc). If I"m wrong OP, I apologize.

What I think, is that "preventive" laws...Either outright bans or "permits" aren't the answer because they can punish the law-abiding person (responsible owner) along with the irresponsible non-law-abiding person.

I'd rather see laws that give harsher punishment to owners IF they behave irresponsibly and then someone gets hurt... This, IMO, would give pause to those considering getting said animal, while still allowing everyone access.

If we, however, give the government control over who can and can't own something (permits), what is to stop them from denying everyone the right altogether? They may jack up the permit "fees" to insane levels, require you to submit to home "inspections" at random times, etc.. Such things, I believe, would infringe on my rights. But if some idiot gets a pit, rott, or even lab or large snake and it harms someone due to their negligence I have no problem with them getting a huge fine, jail time, etc. This would punish their behavior while not infringing on the rights of responsible people. This wouldn't necessarily stop all "bad" people from getting animals, but there is no way to do that... Even with bans or permits people who want to can get around laws... i.e. criminals don't obey the laws anyway so why pass more?

Oh, slightly OT but btw GIO- nice presa! I was in love with cane corsos for a while but now consider them "too much dog" for me... When I do decide to get a dog, it'll probably be a boxer or doberman from stable working lines... I want a sound mind, good territorial instinct, but less drive than a presa or corso would have...I just don't have the time one would need at this point in time, plus there are NO good working dog kennels in my state that I know of (at least none in reasonable driving distance).

and by the way I would say that most people should not own any dogs as they are irresponsible and are the reasons for "bad" dogs. 100% of the time
That being said, they should not be banned.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Its because you need a key for their "locking jaws" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Double dog dare ya to take a deer leg away from my Newfie-Lab when he decides he isn't done with it(I hoped for lab desire to please and Newfie laid back attitude, instead got Lab hyperness and Newfie stubborness, still adore the annoying mutt though). And I would bet some of the Turkish dogs have a higher bite strength than he does. A 4 foot hickory or ash pole won't work and I play with 320Lb wear parts at work all day.

Common sense. Don't leave your child unsupervised with any animal regardless of size. Teach your child to respect the animal and not to antagonize it or whatever. Who knows if this particular dog was unsocialized with kids or just mentally unbalanced. Who knows if the child was provoking the dog or not. And always train your dog!

The reason why we hear so many 'pit bull' bite/attack stories is because there's just so many 'pits' out there. Especially since it's a group of breeds rather than one individual breed. I bet if there was a poll or statistic on actual true APBTs, it would be less than a handful total over the past decade. Most people have never even seen a true purebred APBT. Most are mutts or other breeds.

A few years ago, the Labrador Retriever made it to #1 breed for bites. But that's simply because they are one of the most populated breeds in the country. We all know they're not an aggressive breed as a whole. They've always been the top #1 or #2 registered AKC breed at least. There's just so many of them so of course the ratio of breed individuals to bites is going to be relatively noticeable. If all breeds had similar numbers, we'd notice their bite statistics too.


Many pit dogs are good dogs. They are loyal and please their owners. However, some are still genetically predisposed to be high driven animals since they are terriers . And high driven animals can be some of the most dangerous if unsocialized, unbalanced, or unstable.

And unfortunately, with all the back yard breeding going on, there are so many dogs that are unworthy of being bred that are being bred. Dogs that aren't properly temperament tested or health tested. Unstable dogs being bred simply because they have a desirable color or trait. Or folks just looking for a quick buck. This goes for all breeds, not just pits.

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A few years ago, the Labrador Retriever made it to #1 breed for bites. But that's simply because they are one of the most populated breeds in the country. We all know they're not an aggressive breed as a whole. They've always been the top #1 or #2 registered AKC breed at least.

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This was one I had missed. I had noticed Golden Retrievers either at the top or very high several years running. As Nikki points out the sheer numbers of these dogs makes this a very understandable reality.
There is one other aspect I will throw out. And, I will warn it is not based on my knowledge of any scientific fact just simple observation.
That is the link to both puppy-mills and unscrupulous backyard breeders.
I have noticed dogs from such places exhibit higher than expected disease and behavioural issues(I cannot guarantee that a degree of this is not due to people looking to "save money on the animal" also being less prepared to properly train and socialise the animal). I've seen Labs and Goldens that were unusually food/toy possessive, requiring hours of training to rectify. And, other stellar animals being put down at the ripe young age of 3 due to cancer.
Perhaps, this is the reason although I understand line breeding with herps I do tend to shy away from anyone using extensive line breeding as opposed to a more limited version. Not to say if a gravid Desert fell into my hands and produced a viable clutch I wouldn't line breed to both prove out once and for a if it was incomplete dominant or simple dominant and to provide new options to fellow hobbyists.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

I have noticed dogs from such places exhibit higher than expected disease and behavioural issues(I cannot guarantee that a degree of this is not due to people looking to "save money on the animal" also being less prepared to properly train and socialise the animal). I've seen Labs and Goldens that were unusually food/toy possessive, requiring hours of training to rectify. And, other stellar animals being put down at the ripe young age of 3 due to cancer.

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This hits very close to home for me. Best dog I ever had was put down at 3 years of age due to a tumor on her spinal cord. I adopted her from a local shelter as a 3 month old puppy. She was a rottie/shepherd mix, 100 pounds, sweetest dog you could imagine. Broke my heart when that happened.

And I've never really liked labs or Goldens. They can be great dogs, but I've met too many who were aggressive and poorly mannered, whether sure to lack of training, lack of stimulation, or genetics.

My 2 cents<---- irresponsible keepers and lack of knowledge by the general public pertaining to whatever animal Is in question is why particular animals get bad reputations. A hundred and thirty pound pit bull is possible but it really shouldn't be considered a pit bull anymore. Breeders call them "backyard bullies" and they are typically a product of poverty stricken urban culture. People from bad neighborhoods purchase these dogs and breed them for wider heads and chests and give them a on a dime protection type mentality. If they aren't being used for that someone is using them In dog fights were a vicarious mentality is sought after and therefore bred into future offspring. This is happening so often that many pits can have there lineage drawn back to either of these two examples. The true pit bull is a slender muscular working dog that was bred to be extremely powerful and loyal to its owner. It's a shame that the breed itself gets demonized for the faults of man. My deepest sympathies to the family of the girl who lost her life but I sincerely hope they do not use this as ammunition to chastise the pit bull breed.

A lot of knowledgable people on this thread. :) from reading through I've gotten quite a bit of new Info to research. So thanks.

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Originally Posted by Gio

Responsible pit bull owners will normally be the ones OBEYING all of the leash laws, while others will let little fluffy run off leash and tell everybody how friendly he is while he barks and bites the ankles of the next bicyclist that rides by.

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Unfortunately, so many pitbull owners are anything but responsible...it's a breed that's attractive to people with an IQ lower than their shoe size...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Unfortunately, so many pitbull owners are anything but responsible...it's a breed that's attractive to people with an IQ lower than their shoe size...

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Exactly!!!

It's not the animals fault!! They have little chance to do right when they aren't trained. loved, corrected for improper behavior or even given proper living quarters.

The good folks that love and own the breed responsibly, should not be penalized, nor should the animal get an automatic "dangerous breed" sticker based on it's skin, fur, head shape or whatever.

The price of a free country is having to allow everybody equality. That means dumb dumbs can own pit bulls, snakes and other stuff.

We can't babysit them all. It's just too bad the animals pay the price.

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Originally Posted by Gio

Exactly!!!

It's not the animals fault!! They have little chance to do right when they aren't trained. loved, corrected for improper behavior or even given proper living quarters.

The good folks that love and own the breed responsibly, should not be penalized, nor should the animal get an automatic "dangerous breed" sticker based on it's skin, fur, head shape or whatever.

The price of a free country is having to allow everybody equality. That means dumb dumbs can own pit bulls, snakes and other stuff.

We can't babysit them all. It's just too bad the animals pay the price.

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The worst part about it is that 95% of the dumb dumbs do not even have TRUE pit bulls, but rather mutts and bullies that look like American Pit Bulls....:weirdface

Speaking of bullies, has anyone seen some of the freaky stuff being produced as 'Exotic American Bullies'

Some of the most deformed and structurally unsound animals I have ever seen. The worst part is that the breeders and buyers like the look and justify breeding these dogs. Most of these dogs can't walk 10 feet without overheating and don't live past 3 yrs old and some breeders say its good because it keeps their puppies in demand.

Just ridiculous.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Speaking of bullies, has anyone seen some of the freaky stuff being produced as 'Exotic American Bullies'

Some of the most deformed and structurally unsound animals I have ever seen. The worst part is that the breeders and buyers like the look and justify breeding these dogs. Most of these dogs don't live past 3 yrs old and some breeders say its good because it keeps their puppies in demand.

Just ridiculous.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Oh dear god, I just looked up that sorry excuse for a kennel. I am absolutely appalled. These people are not doing it for the love of the breed, they are running it into the ground! And their page is unprofessional at best. If you can't make a proper webpage, which is going to be a person's first impression of you, how are we to know how you treat your dogs. I am just disgusted, people like this should not be breeding. For the most part, I believe that unless your dog comes from well-documented and is physically and mentally sound, you should not be breeding. Normally I favor AKC-registered kennels, but I know that some of them are just as guilty as these clowns, and that working lines are better for some breeds. These poor things come from neither and probably couldn't run for more than five minutes without passing out! These poor animals have been dealt a poor quality of life because someone thought that exaggerated looks on them-despite them being detrimental to the animals life, would bring them a lot of money. The cheapest puppies on there are $2500+ when I could adopt a more physically sound pit mix from a shelter. There are tons of them in shelters! Money is the only reason why people make a living off of breeding unsound animals when those same animals(I mainly mean this on a breed-per-breed basis)are clogging up shelters. My boyfriend's sister has a pit mix she adopted from the shelter and Tequila(the dog) is the sweetest dog you'll meet, she is neither people nor dog aggressive! More people should take that route, or support reputable breeders if they want a pit. Not these disgusting people.

Check out the bandoggies

My brother had a pure pit breed and it was an awesome dog. It loved kids, adults, other dogs, the only caveat was it hated cats. It would kill literally everyone that jumped the fence. Aside from that it was extremely obedient, extremely loyal, and protective over any of the family. Even the family dogs lol. It did however get along with two cats very well, but they were my brother's and the dog even viewed them like part of the family.

Made me want a pit pretty bad after seeing what a great dog they can be.

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It's not even just one kennel.
All the creepy little bully mutts are labeled as "exotic bullies".

And its.... ugh. Just so many deformed dogs with rears higher than their head, bowed legs, overly wide shoulders, horrible structure overall. Horrible breeding.

I've seen these exaggerated dogs before, but had to take a look again. Really makes me sick. I don't even know how those dogs move at all, let alone for 10 feet. Those poor girls probably all need c-sections too, like English bulldogs. No way I would ever consider paying thousands for something like that. Give me a dog from the shelter first. If I spend that kind of cash, its going to be for an animal that is sound and functional.

So... what they're doing with the "exotic pitbulls" is recreating the english bulldog from scratch, only uglier.

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

So... what they're doing with the "exotic pitbulls" is recreating the english bulldog from scratch, only uglier.

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I adore the original bulldogs. The standards set by kennel clubs sicken me.
That idiocy is all the reason I need to not support kennel clubs. Breed specific clubs can be a whole different matter.
They encouraged the production of dags that are barely viable and miles from the sturdy, healthy animals they used to be.
Thankfully, some breeders are maintaining the old english bulldog as it was meant to be.

http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps8fceckcb.jpg

Saw this on fb and thought "well this is perfect for this thread."


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Dug back a couple years..................

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ull/SANews.jpg

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Dug back a couple years..................

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...ull/SANews.jpg

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No pic of the Chihuahua in a sundress? How dissapointing...:D

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Originally Posted by sho220

No pic of the Chihuahua in a sundress? How dissapointing...:D

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LoL, I didn't send them any pictures and she is too fat to fit in it now. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Personally, I hate when people discriminant against the pit bull breed. Sure, they can do terrible things like this one did but really, can't any breed of dog? Some of the nicest dogs I have met were Pit Bulls and one of the nastiest dogs I have encountered was a Labrador. It is all dependent on how you raise them and take care of them, just like any kind of pet. Hell, my aunt had a Chihuahua that I was terrified of because he was so mean.
What the dog did was terrible and I am very sorry for the family, but I don't think we should discriminate again the whole breed..

I just looked these up and I am horrified... what on earth are these people thinking!? It is not cute or beautiful it just looks like an absolute mess.. Horrific..

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Speaking of bullies, has anyone seen some of the freaky stuff being produced as 'Exotic American Bullies'

Some of the most deformed and structurally unsound animals I have ever seen. The worst part is that the breeders and buyers like the look and justify breeding these dogs. Most of these dogs can't walk 10 feet without overheating and don't live past 3 yrs old and some breeders say its good because it keeps their puppies in demand.

Just ridiculous.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Did not read the whole thread but the 'freak' style bullies are terribly disturbing.

Some new information has come out about this case, though the parents have stopped talking with police. The dog that attacked the girl was registered as a American Bulldog. It is a beast of a dog though so there is doubt that is what it really is. He was an unaltered male with an unspayed female, possibly going into heat, in the same room when he went off and attacked the mom and daughter. When the police got there he attacked them and had to be shot.

http://wbbh.images.worldnow.com/images/25097900_BG1.jpg

http://wvue.images.worldnow.com/images/25140606_BG1.JPG