Some Snake News out of Southern California

He won't get jail time. Since CA prisons and jails are over crowded, people are released for all kinds of reasons. Animal abuse and neglect ate not currently considered serious enough crimes for jail. He'll likely be let off with fines.

I'd love to adopt one, I was going to get my first snake next week but I'd rather adopt out of this bad situation. Sadly though I live in Georgia =( I doubt they would ship one to me.:(

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Originally Posted by Misha

Any information on how to get involved or volunteer? I live about 45 minutes away and would like to help out any way I can.

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Here's a link to their organization. I'm sure they have contact info listed on their site

http://socalherpassn.com/

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Originally Posted by Powerline Reptiles

Here's a link to their organization. I'm sure they have contact info listed on their site

http://socalherpassn.com/

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Thanks, I already contacted them.

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MarkS,
You are correct: I don’t know what it would take to kill a snake from neglect. And I thank GOD for that! I do know from the reports that the neighbors have been complaining to the police for, at least, six months about the stench. So this has been going on for quite some time. There were reports of rats and mice eating each other to stay alive and bottles of human urine setting in cluttered, filthy rooms. Excuses have been made that he lost his mother and father and grandmother over the last 5 years. I’m sorry, but there are plenty of other people that have lost a lot more than that and haven’t gone over the edge like this. I’m sure there is more to this story. There always is. I don’t think anyone will disagree that this person is deeply disturbed and needs help.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Misha gave her opinion, you gave yours and I gave mine.
You are a “Super Moderator” of this forum. You of all people should know better than to attack someone personally for giving their opinion. I consider your comment:

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This is a completely ridiculous assumption and shows just how little you know. Your further diatribe sounds like the rantings of a petulant child.

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inappropriate and out of line.

I have said what I have to say on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

Misha gave her opinion

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I'm a guy. I know the name makes it seem otherwise. :)

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I'm a guy. I know the name makes it seem otherwise. :)

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SO sorry!!!!

:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:

Please forgive me

:please::please::please::please::please::please::please::please:

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Misha gave her opinion, you gave yours and I gave mine.
You are a “Super Moderator” of this forum. You of all people should know better than to attack someone personally for giving their opinion. I consider your comment:
inappropriate and out of line.

I have said what I have to say on this subject.

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No. Anybody who would equate Animal neglect with child molestation is woefully ignorant and I'm frankly appalled that anyone would make this association.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

No. Anybody who would equate Animal neglect with child molestation is woefully ignorant and I'm frankly appalled that anyone would make this association.

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I have to agree. This case here mostly just makes me incredibly sad. A little angry, sure, but mostly I just hope that the animals as well as the owner get the help that they need. Depression is complex, and I feel that it is hard for some people to understand if you don't have personal experience with it (either yourself or with someone you love). Something that is a painful loss for someone can be the end of the world for another.

Had this been the molestation of a child, my reaction would be VERY different. To me, neglect of an animal and child molestation are on completely different levels.

I'm not justifying what this person did. I think it is truly truly horrible. But I think they are very sick and need help. I've known animal hoarders, and it's never a simple case.

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

SO sorry!!!!

:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:

Please forgive me

:please::please::please::please::please::please::please::please:

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Hehe. No worries. :)

This article has some pictures of the survivors and a video from inside the house. I hope he gets some help and the surviving snakes find good homes. Really sad all around.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-horrors.html

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Originally Posted by Tarotknits

I'd love to adopt one, I was going to get my first snake next week but I'd rather adopt out of this bad situation. Sadly though I live in Georgia =( I doubt they would ship one to me.:(

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Yeah, I feel the same. I really want to reach out and adopt one, but I doubt that option will be available.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

He won't get jail time. Since CA prisons and jails are over crowded, people are released for all kinds of reasons. Animal abuse and neglect ate not currently considered serious enough crimes for jail. He'll likely be let off with fines.

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I believe at the least, he just needs someone to help him and reach out to him. The rats and the snakes aren't the only ones who were suffering.

This is a downright tragedy. Buchman was/is suffering, the animals suffered, and I guarantee the rest of us in the herp community are now going to suffer. (If you haven't already figured out, knee-jerk reactions are always followed after something involving mental instability occurs. See: Colorado shootouts; Zanesville Animal Massacre)

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Yeah, I feel the same. I really want to reach out and adopt one, but I doubt that option will be available.


I believe at the least, he just needs someone to help him and reach out to him. The rats and the snakes aren't the only ones who were suffering.

This is a downright tragedy. Buchman was/is suffering, the animals suffered, and I guarantee the rest of us in the herp community are now going to suffer. (If you haven't already figured out, knee-jerk reactions are always followed after something involving mental instability occurs. See: Colorado shootouts; Zanesville Animal Massacre)

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Yup people always use tragedies to push their agendas just look at sandy hook and the draconian gun laws passed in my state (ct) fueled by emotion not logic

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Originally Posted by bigt0006

Yup people always use tragedies to push their agendas just look at sandy hook and the draconian gun laws passed in my state (ct) fueled by emotion not logic

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The only good thing I wished would happen under situations like this are the addition of reptiles under federal animal abuse laws. Of course, stupid people don't let good things happen, and they just ban stuff they are entirely ill-informed about.
Odds are, there will be strict regulations or outright bans proposed locally to SoCal and elsewhere instead.

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Originally Posted by Andys-Python

MarkS,
You are correct: I don’t know what it would take to kill a snake from neglect. And I thank GOD for that! I do know from the reports that the neighbors have been complaining to the police for, at least, six months about the stench. So this has been going on for quite some time. There were reports of rats and mice eating each other to stay alive and bottles of human urine setting in cluttered, filthy rooms. Excuses have been made that he lost his mother and father and grandmother over the last 5 years. I’m sorry, but there are plenty of other people that have lost a lot more than that and haven’t gone over the edge like this. I’m sure there is more to this story. There always is. I don’t think anyone will disagree that this person is deeply disturbed and needs help.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Misha gave her opinion, you gave yours and I gave mine.
You are a “Super Moderator” of this forum. You of all people should know better than to attack someone personally for giving their opinion. I consider your comment:
inappropriate and out of line.

I have said what I have to say on this subject.

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You said that it takes (in all caps) MONTHS AND MONTHS for this to happen. If you don't know what it takes to neglect a snake to death, you shouldn't have been so all-caps-adamant about it.

Who are you to determine how one person's loss compares to that of others? I've seen people go bat crap crazy over the death of a dog while I've seen others shrug off the death of a family member.

Some people are stronger than others and can handle a lot more than most people can. Some people are emotionally fragile and what seems small to you is insurmountable to them.

You aren't required to choose a side here, man or snakes. You can have compassion for both.

As I posted in another forum this is a tragedy no doubt but there is too much info that is not known and how long he had been dealing with issues. There is talk that his mother's death was the final straw that broke him. He had some crazy looking morphs too, I believe that socal herp society will only be donating the surviving snakes to educational classrooms only and not to breeders or an of us hobbyist.

Bill was around way back in the day. This is a tragedy, and no matter what he went thru, these animals suffered horribly.

Several things to note:

If you are a breeder/hobbyist/etc... you will NOT be able to adopt these animals.
Donate to SCHA&R to help support these animals. There are 186 to take care of... This is a significant burden on the rescue.

Bill was at one time a respected member of our community. Do not make light of the tragedy, but also do not jump to judgement so quickly. It behooves us to keep supporting these animals and to maintain decorum within our industry to prevent more bad press from occurring due to this. It is already a nationwide news story.

Talk to your friends about it, and explain that this is an isolated incident. Use it as a teaching opportunity to explain the hobby to those who may not know.

We can use this as an opportunity to educate... either yourselves or those outside the hobby.

Don't let it pass you by.

Just curious, has anyone actually seen this story on the TV? I have the news on my TV on almost 24/7 and the only other time I heard of this story was when is first released.
Also, $10 says HSUS or PETA is cooking up a press release.

Some updates on the snakes' whereabouts: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/s...od.html?page=1

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Just curious, has anyone actually seen this story on the TV? I have the news on my TV on almost 24/7 and the only other time I heard of this story was when is first released.
Also, $10 says HSUS or PETA is cooking up a press release.

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So far I've only heard about it from the herp community. It did appear on the 11pm local news, but I only know this from seeing the previews as I watched some recorded programs the other night. I did not actually see the report, and haven't seen or heard any other reports about it on the tv, radio, or through social networking sites (except what I've seen presented by the herp community). None of my family, friends, or coworkers have mentioned it either. One friend in another state said she hadn't heard anything about it when I brought it up.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

So far I've only heard about it from the herp community. It did appear on the 11pm local news, but I only know this from seeing the previews as I watched some recorded programs the other night. I did not actually see the report, and haven't seen or heard any other reports about it on the tv, radio, or through social networking sites (except what I've seen presented by the herp community). None of my family, friends, or coworkers have mentioned it either. One friend in another state said she hadn't heard anything about it when I brought it up.

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Yeah, I find it bizarre. Google reports that there's more articles on this snake hoarding case (400<) than J. Biebers recent screw ups (~100) yet it's relatively unheard of.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...242593641.html

Here is a half way decent news report on it, Jason and the guys are doing an awesome job on damage control out here and it's good to see Dr. Greek working in on this too. On a lighter note from what the news is reporting he was still doing fine in his teaching job before he got arrested and it appears he was well liked by parents of his students so hopefully that can calm some of the anti-snake backlash from that end.

I honestly think more anti snake back lash would come from out of the state than in. There are people who don't like snakes, but in my experience far more people tend to be tolerant (including many who don't like them, don't care if others have them, just themselves don't want them).

But from some of the comments I saw on one article, he was still teaching and was well liked.

Oh nbc is the channel I saw the news report on. Well, I didn't see the actual news report, just the previews on the recorded program I was watching.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Misha gave his(corrected ;) ) opinion, you gave yours and I gave mine.

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No. Anybody who would equate Animal neglect with child molestation is woefully ignorant and I'm frankly appalled that anyone would make this association.

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I stand corrected then. Nobody is entitled to their opinion on this forum if YOU find it appalling. This will then make it OK for you to attack them on a personal level.
It is my opinion that everyone here should be aware of this hypocrisy. But that is my opinion. Which you can now find appalling and attack me some more.

By the way, I find it appalling that anyone would NOT want to see justice done in this case. Although I would not attack someone for their opinion (no matter how outrageous it may be), I can bet I would be kicked off this forum for doing so.

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I have said what I have to say on this subject.

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Please forgive me. Since I was being quoted and further attacked on a personal front, I feel I should respond – least, I be made out to be ‘ignorant’ or non-compassionate.

Sham, you make a good point:

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Had this been the molestation of a child, my reaction would be VERY different. To me, neglect of an animal and child molestation are on completely different levels.

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I respect your opinion that they are on two different ‘levels’, but I don’t attack you on a personal level because my opinion is different than yours.
My reaction to both crimes IS the same. I find them both offensive and criminal. This was the point I was trying to make with MarkS who wrote:

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Well I’m NOT glad that their pressing charges

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I might add that MarkS felt it necessary to single out one individual and quote him with his response, instead of simply stating his opinion. It seems to be Marks M.O. to attack people on this forum when they have an opinion different than his.
I will also point out that child molesters are charged, arrested, convicted, ‘treated’, and released back into society. The same will probably be true of this guy. So in this respect, the two situations are also quite similar. Granted, the difference may be that a child molester may serve time.
Do I hold the value of a snakes life over that of another human being? No. Do I feel the same about the perpetrators of each crime? Yes. That is the way I feel and my opinion. Attacking me personally does not help to change that.

BrandiR:

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You said that it takes (in all caps) MONTHS AND MONTHS for this to happen. If you don't know what it takes to neglect a snake to death, you shouldn't have been so all-caps-adamant about it.

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This is what I believed at the time. I expressed it in all caps to emphasize the horror. I am also man enough to admit when I am wrong and if your read further, you would have seen that I admitted my IGNORANCE. Yet you felt it necessary to chastise me further. I can only surmise why.

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Who are you to determine how one person's loss compares to that of others? I've seen people go bat crap crazy over the death of a dog while I've seen others shrug off the death of a family member.

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I am a logical, rational human being (most of the time) – trying to rationalize what has happened here - Like everyone else. That’s ‘who I am’.
First, we must understand that the press is putting the idea out there that he did this because he lost his mother, father and grandmother within the last 5 years. I don’t buy this as an ‘excuse’ for doing what he did. Hence My comment and some rational behind it. Here is some additional rational: This has been going on for well over 6 months during which time, the man has had the capacity to go to work every day and function ‘normally’. (and I put ‘normal’ in quotes for a reason). Nobody was aware of what was going on except for a neighbor who smelled the stench next door. It’s not like the guy suffered a nervous breakdown and was huddled in a corner somewhere due to some tragedy. This, I could understand. He was cognizant of other responsibilities in his life. Why not his responsibilities to his wards? It has been further suggested by others outside the press, that this may have been the case of an ‘animal hoarder’. I will admit my ignorance on this subject and just say that the situation fits the profile as it was explained to me. I don’t except this as an excuse or reason not to prosecute. Do I think these people need help? Yes. Do I think they should be allowed to own another animal? No. These are my opinions. You (should) have a right to voice yours. It’s called freedom of speech.

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Some people are stronger than others and can handle a lot more than most people can. Some people are emotionally fragile and what seems small to you is insurmountable to them.

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I DO understand this. I also will add that I have a great deal of compassion for these people as well as those who seem to handle it better than others. I also understand that not everybody copes with these tragedys the same way.
When someone exhibits anti-social behavior, at what point do you stop excusing it? Does one crime trump another? Does one tragedy trump another? I submit that every person decides this for themselves for every situation they assess. This is exactly what is being discussed here. Some in a more mature manner than others.

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You aren't required to choose a side here, man or snakes. You can have compassion for both.

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I agree 100%. As I have stated before; this guy needs help. This doesn’t change my opinion that he should be prosecuted, punished and never allowed to own another living animal. It is MY opinion that he has lost that privilege by what he has done.

Let’s see if we can have further discussion without the personal attacks and hostility.

No, I didn't attack 'you' on a personal level, I don't even know 'you' on a personal level. I responded to what you said because I found your comments to be exceptionally ignorant and insensitive. And I still do.

Challenging a Mod's actions....GENIUS!!!


Also, I too find it interesting which news outlets are carrying the story. Our local paper ran a story on it (we're 450+ miles away) but Yahoo Homepage never discussed it (that I could see)

Andy, I think you mean well, but are ... uninformed in regards to how devastating the death of someone held dear can be. It is entirely possible that he simply compartmentalized his life. He COULD handle school and work, there were no reminders of his loss there, he had structure, duties, responsibilities that were rote, routine and he could count on the aid and assistance in regards to his work from his fellow teachers.

Then he goes home. To the memories, the shattered dreams, the life he thought he would have for the rest of forever and the world stops. He is not longer the Teacher liked by all. Now he's the man who, to himself, has lost everything. And so depression sets in, sinks a deep foundation and builds a skyscraper of despair that he found impossible to climb out from under.

He didn't go OUT and do anything to anyone. He didn't go molest some child, and the comparison was idiotic, he didn't hurt anyone other than himself. Yes, the snakes suffered, but this was not someone bringing HARM to anyone else. He suffered and because of that suffering his animals suffered. Yup, he should be held accountable, but not as a hoarder. He broke. He broke down. The HE that HE is now is not the HE that HE was then and this HE, apparently, simply shut down.

Had he simple been some guy who bought a few hundred snakes and got in over his head, I could see the sense in being angry and volatile, but I don't think that is the case here.

Death hits people in odd ways. Some people reach the end of that imaginary rope, others never seem to. Compassion, in this instance, as of now, is warranted here. I'm not disrespecting your opinion Andy, but I do most fervently think yours is wrong. This is not a man who set out to abuse anything, but because of mental trauma, wound up doing just that. What do we do about this? Smite that broken man with laws meant for people who take the innocence of children? I don't think that's going to help anyone, not him or us.

My best friend for over 30 years died a few weeks ago. There were a couple of weeks there where I really didn't want to do much of anything. Had it been a member of my immediate family, or had I not(and I'm not bragging here, this is the plain and simple) been as tough/hard as I am, I could see myself travelling the same road as this guy with the snakes that died. My loss was small compared to his yet it hit me like a frickin tidal wave. I imagine the Earth pretty much opened a gaping maw and simply swallowed him whole.

Vigilance. We must be vigilant amongst ourselves, our fellow reptile keepers, as much as we can. Even then though, because reptile keeping can be such an insular occupation, there will be those, like now, who fall. Some fall because they are too stupid to walk unassisted, some fall because they can't carry on. One deserves our indignation, the other our help.

From what I know about this case, this guy needs help.

Hello guys,

I recently read/saw news about a teacher getting arrested for animal neglect charges. There were over 350 dead ball pythons in there. See it for yourself: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ested/5035109/

What do you guys think of the quote below?

"Such "morphs" had previously fetched $1,500 but now sell for about $200 because the market is oversaturated, Sondra Berg, an animal services supervisor, told the Register." - Michael Winter, USA TODAY8:45 p.m. EST January 29, 2014

Although the actual numbers aren't dead on, the quote is.


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I care less about the quote than the fact that all those snakes died from neglect. It hurts my heart to think of their suffering.

There is already a lengthy thread related to this here.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ern-California

I'll be moving this thread to the appropriate forum.

Extremely upsetting!! What ever sentence this guy gets it is not enough!


Joe Tully

A constant reminder that any of us with animals need to be ready to acknowledge when we are in over our heads, or when circumstances change we must be prepared to cut back. I'm sad for the animals, but I'm sad for the man too. This was not something that he planned on happening; none of us do...

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Andy, I think you mean well, but are ... uninformed in regards to how devastating the death of someone held dear can be. It is entirely possible that he simply compartmentalized his life. He COULD handle school and work, there were no reminders of his loss there, he had structure, duties, responsibilities that were rote, routine and he could count on the aid and assistance in regards to his work from his fellow teachers.

Then he goes home. To the memories, the shattered dreams, the life he thought he would have for the rest of forever and the world stops. He is not longer the Teacher liked by all. Now he's the man who, to himself, has lost everything. And so depression sets in, sinks a deep foundation and builds a skyscraper of despair that he found impossible to climb out from under.

He didn't go OUT and do anything to anyone. He didn't go molest some child, and the comparison was idiotic, he didn't hurt anyone other than himself. Yes, the snakes suffered, but this was not someone bringing HARM to anyone else. He suffered and because of that suffering his animals suffered. Yup, he should be held accountable, but not as a hoarder. He broke. He broke down. The HE that HE is now is not the HE that HE was then and this HE, apparently, simply shut down.

Had he simple been some guy who bought a few hundred snakes and got in over his head, I could see the sense in being angry and volatile, but I don't think that is the case here.

Death hits people in odd ways. Some people reach the end of that imaginary rope, others never seem to. Compassion, in this instance, as of now, is warranted here. I'm not disrespecting your opinion Andy, but I do most fervently think yours is wrong. This is not a man who set out to abuse anything, but because of mental trauma, wound up doing just that. What do we do about this? Smite that broken man with laws meant for people who take the innocence of children? I don't think that's going to help anyone, not him or us.

My best friend for over 30 years died a few weeks ago. There were a couple of weeks there where I really didn't want to do much of anything. Had it been a member of my immediate family, or had I not(and I'm not bragging here, this is the plain and simple) been as tough/hard as I am, I could see myself travelling the same road as this guy with the snakes that died. My loss was small compared to his yet it hit me like a frickin tidal wave. I imagine the Earth pretty much opened a gaping maw and simply swallowed him whole.

Vigilance. We must be vigilant amongst ourselves, our fellow reptile keepers, as much as we can. Even then though, because reptile keeping can be such an insular occupation, there will be those, like now, who fall. Some fall because they are too stupid to walk unassisted, some fall because they can't carry on. One deserves our indignation, the other our help.

From what I know about this case, this guy needs help.

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I was all ready (after reading this whole thread) to explain depression because nobody here seemed to understand, but this post is perfect. Thank you so much. It's been my experience with depression that it's easier to do the things you really need to (school, work, etc.), but once you get home and there's nobody to fire you for not cleaning your own house, you tend to let things go...for excessive periods of time. I've never let it effect how I care for my pets, but I can see how extreme mental trauma such as loss of a family member + hundreds of snakes can quickly become overwhelming. (Not that I'm necessarily defending animal neglect, just explaining how this could have happened.)

This story is extremely sad for the owner and the snakes, and anyone with any knowledge of mental illness can see that the death of his mother caused a mental break that triggered depression and a hoarding disorder. That said... I think he should still be charged (probably just a fine anyway) and prohibited from owning animals, at least until he gets help. Honestly, seeking help is such a difficult step for those with mental illnesses, this "intervention" of sorts may have been what he needed, and it will be less stress on his psyche to have the snakes gone. I hope he gets the help he needs, and I'm keeping track on the snakes' progress as well--they seem to be in very good hands.

Here is one of his public pictures: combo of two of his dinker genes that proved out. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...istine-x-Enchi Last time I talked with him was in 2011 and he had a few dinker projects that looked promising from what I remember. Unfortunately, it was on my old email and that is long closed. He did take time to answer questions from a nobody me and gave me quite a bit of advise. Just bringing to light he was very involved with this hobby and something messed him up.

Update: It sounds like he got the help he needed.
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Cali...-Animal-Abuse/

I wish the best for him in his post reptile hobby life. Too bad so many animals had to suffer because of a break down though. Pre-break down he was an awesome guy.

182 animals in poor health, but alive.... I bet some of them are one of a kind animals. The hobbyist in me really wonders whats going on with them?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I wish the best for him in his post reptile hobby life. Too bad so many animals had to suffer because of a break down though. Pre-break down he was an awesome guy.

182 animals in poor health, but alive.... I bet some of them are one of a kind animals. The hobbyist in me really wonders whats going on with them?

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Last I heard, a rescue group had them and was trying to place them in strict pet only homes.