How Not To Feed Your Snake (Graphic)!

What is pictured is cruel, and not even on the same page as a predator killing it's prey, unless you compare to a cat playing with a mouse, allowing that mouse to die a slow agonizing death (in which case the mouse may be considered a toy more than prey). This is more like putting 2 dogs in a ring and expecting them to fight.

When a predator kills in the manner it was meant to, there are mechanisms at play that help keep the prey from suffering too long before it dies. The prey may go unconscious, or adrenaline or other hormones may prevent it from feeling the pain until it does fall unconscious or dies. Not the case in a slow torturous death such as this where adrenaline would wear off before consciousness subsided or death overcame the snake.

Also, movement and even sound isn't a good way to judge consciousness or death. If you cut off a chicken's head, it is dead, but the body will continue to move, violently even, and it can make sound (sound is produced in the bird's lungs not throat like in mammals) even after death gas occurred. There is no consciousness, the heart may no longer beat, but the nerves still send signals that cause movement. Sounds can be produced simply be compressing the chest. I've seen and experienced this before when butchering chickens for consumption. The phrase "running like a chicken with its head cut off" is actually based in fact!

Wow. That's pretty graphic. Why I only feed live when I have to.
How tossing animals in a situation where one is dying for hours is even being compared to one where an animal quickly kills another is beyond me. Suffering can't be avoided, but it can be minimized, and leaving feeders alone long enough to eat a snake alive is not the way to do that...

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Originally Posted by fishdip

Yes every thing has a right to protect its self. So if you kill a human who was going to kill you then eat him its fair also.

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Bad idea. Prions. ;)

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Originally Posted by sorraia

What is pictured is cruel, and not even on the same page as a predator killing it's prey, unless you compare to a cat playing with a mouse, allowing that mouse to die a slow agonizing death (in which case the mouse may be considered a toy more than prey). This is more like putting 2 dogs in a ring and expecting them to fight.

When a predator kills in the manner it was meant to, there are mechanisms at play that help keep the prey from suffering too long before it dies. The prey may go unconscious, or adrenaline or other hormones may prevent it from feeling the pain until it does fall unconscious or dies. Not the case in a slow torturous death such as this where adrenaline would wear off before consciousness subsided or death overcame the snake.

Also, movement and even sound isn't a good way to judge consciousness or death. If you cut off a chicken's head, it is dead, but the body will continue to move, violently even, and it can make sound (sound is produced in the bird's lungs not throat like in mammals) even after death gas occurred. There is no consciousness, the heart may no longer beat, but the nerves still send signals that cause movement. Sounds can be produced simply be compressing the chest. I've seen and experienced this before when butchering chickens for consumption. The phrase "running like a chicken with its head cut off" is actually based in fact!

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Look up the chicken that lived for like 9 months with no head. just because no head dose not change the fact it may still be living. Any facts to the minimal suffering? like articles?

That chicken didn't have the entire head cut off. The 'executioner' missed the brainstem, which controls basic cardiopulmonary functions and movement. It would have died within a day or two if some weirdo hadn't kept the wound from getting infected and tube-fed it grain :O

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

That chicken didn't have the entire head cut off. The 'executioner' missed the brainstem, which controls basic cardiopulmonary functions and movement. It would have died within a day or two if some weirdo hadn't kept the wound from getting infected and tube-fed it grain :O

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This. A complete decapitation (which is what happened when I butchered chickens) would not result in a bird continuing to "live".

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Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss

Its a mouse in the picture; not a rat.

I'm aware that the snake was the pet. My snake, mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, degus, ferrets, cats, and dogs are all my family... Even the mice that I use as feeders. I also wasn't commenting on the food chain.

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Since the species is so important, I'm sorry. I was actually aware that it was a mouse when I first looked at it, but since I prefer not to look at this photo (I hope you can understand why) and everyone responding is calling it a rat, I just unconsciously called it a rat.

I'm still not sure why some people are saying this is acceptable and questioning why people are upset about the photo. Whether it was a snake, a rat, a mouse, a dog, a cat, or any other animal, the fact is the animal died a very slow, agonizing death and as such was subjected to animal abuse. I would be just as upset to see that mouse chewed open like this, no animal should have to go through this and especially not in captivity under the care of a person. Who is responsible for its care.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Wow. That's pretty graphic. Why I only feed live when I have to.
How tossing animals in a situation where one is dying for hours is even being compared to one where an animal quickly kills another is beyond me. Suffering can't be avoided, but it can be minimized, and leaving feeders alone long enough to eat a snake alive is not the way to do that...



Bad idea. Prions. ;)

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Prions are only found in the central nervous system, so as long as you stay away from the brain and spinal cord you should be fine. If you were to eat someone that is....>.> <.< >.>

Wouldn't brains taste good with fava beans and Chianti??

While you can feed live, you have a risk. If that snake doesn't hit and coil right then the mouse/rats teeth are right there for free access. Yea this doesn't always happen, but it's always a risk. I have fed live to some that won't take f/t and what I do when I feed live is I keep my tongs right next to me so that if the rat goes to bite I can stop it before it happens. I of course would never leave a live animal in with the snake unsupervised, so I put the rat in there if it's not going to hit within a few minutes then chances are it's not going to eat, so the rat goes back out.

I was snake sitting a friends baby pied and come feeding day I went to feed it f/t, which it didn't take so I tried live which it seemed interested in but no go. Now I don't know why(may be a dominance thing) but Luke was telling me that sometimes if his snakes won't eat right off the bat, he'll hold them above the rat and they'll take it then. So I did this and sure enough the pied struck and coiled the rat pup. Now what I failed to realize and looking back I should of known that it was going to hold on to my hand/fingers while it did this to prevent itself from falling.

So fast forwarding a minute or two, it nailed the rat and picked him up while coiling, but it coiled the rat and somehow the rats mouth ended up by my finger and it bit the crap out of me. Not that it hurt, but for a rat pup, I sure as hell wasn't expecting that.

With all this being said, I prefer f/t because I'd rather not run the risk if I don't have to, plus I don't have to provide care for the rat as well as food. Now if I had 100+ snakes this may be different. Plus I don't breed, so cost wise it's much cheaper to do f/t.

Jesus Christ... Relax

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Originally Posted by stickyalvinroll

Jesus Christ... Relax

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LOL, was this directed to me or somebody else?

I didn't read the entire thread because of the nature of the post so I'm not sure if you were talking to me or somebody else. If it was directed to me though I'm not mad or hyped up or anything. If not then carry on, lol.

Nope, just found out how many pretentious people there are here. Just made a simple joke and people want to flame me for it, calling me stupid and immature. another thing, arguing about who has better moral views is just idiotic, in the end we are all sinners, living in worldy desires. Add a lmfao after "the friendliest online community for all your herping needs."

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Originally Posted by fishdip

You don't think its torture to let a animal get its breath slowly squeezed out of it? As far as food and water in less the bp had no water also I am sure the tank had water also we all know what the feeder had for food.

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Is that what you think happens when a snake constricts prey?

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Originally Posted by fishdip

You don't think its torture to let a animal get its breath slowly squeezed out of it?

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Please. Absolutely not.

Predators have evolved over millions of years to be as efficient killers as possible.
Constrictors are some of the most efficient. They kill just as fast, or even quicker, than a CO2 chamber.

Constricting may even be more humane than a CO2 chamber because the constriction does stimulate endorphins, which do numb the pain receptors and reduce stress.

A ball python is specifically designed to kill rodents.
There is a reason why predators are nature's killers.
Natural selection favors those who can survive the best. Predators that kill efficiently are less likely to get inured, loose their prey, and survive.


A mouse eating a snake that is still aware and alive *IS* torture. I can bet that this snake did feel the mouse chew through it's tissue, bones, and organs before it eventually died a slow agonizing death. A domesticated mouse is not designed to kill snakes. They don't know how to kill efficiently and lack the instinct to kill efficiently. Even during a fight among the same species, rodents still do not kill efficiently.
Based on seeing a number of snake injuries from feeders left too long in the enclosure, the rodents certainly do eat the snake before it is dead. This snake most definitely did not die right away, which in my opinion is torture.

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

Is that what you think happens when a snake constricts prey?

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I know its for a fact with mine since its a good 60 sec before the feeder is dead.

I find this thread shallow and pedantic


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Originally Posted by fishdip

I know its for a fact with mine since its a good 60 sec before the feeder is dead.

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Except that it's not a fact.

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~brm2286/constrct.htm

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

Except that it's not a fact.

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~brm2286/constrct.htm

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One that looks like it was done by a 3rd grader 2nd I see no facts in that IE proof photos of dead feeders showing the broken veins that sort of stuff. Also I am not basing what I am seeing off it looking like he is squeezing it. I am deciding it off the feeder still moving. I know I have the grammar of a 3rd grader but think id be able to put out a better written research paper.

To sum it up: "However, constriction often kills small mammals faster than would be expected if suffocation were the immediate cause of death. In many snakes, constriction may be strong enough to collapse the blood vessels in small prey, which in turn would quickly stop the heart from working and lead to heart attack and stroke."

the movement of the mouse after it is dead is due to the nerves. it happens all the time with people after they have passed away. My mother used to work in a nursing home and would help dress the dead. It wasnt uncommon for an arm to go straight up days after the person had died. So even after a person/mouse/whatever it might be has died, it still could move

for the comments about hearing noises from the mice as the snake starts to swallow it-it could be air being pushed through the lungs. when the air gets pushed out of the lungs up into the throat, noises can be produced. i live on a farm where we shoot groundhogs to stop them from digging up the ground. We shot one that was still 2/3 of the way in the hole and i had to get it out. when i took the shovel under the stomach to pick it out of the hole a noise was produced. scared the crap out of me. the thing was dead for sure, it had a bullet hole right between the eyes. the force of the shovel pushing the air out of the lungs and up into the throat had produced the noises that sounded like grunts and squeals.

to sum that up: dead things can move because of nerves and can make noises if air is pushed out of the lungs and into the throat

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Originally Posted by fishdip

One that looks like it was done by a 3rd grader 2nd I see no facts in that IE proof photos of dead feeders showing the broken veins that sort of stuff. Also I am not basing what I am seeing off it looking like he is squeezing it. I am deciding it off the feeder still moving. I know I have the grammar of a 3rd grader but think id be able to put out a better written research paper.

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Once again, movement, even noise, does NOT mean the animal is still alive.

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

To sum it up: "However, constriction often kills small mammals faster than would be expected if suffocation were the immediate cause of death. In many snakes, constriction may be strong enough to collapse the blood vessels in small prey, which in turn would quickly stop the heart from working and lead to heart attack and stroke."

the movement of the mouse after it is dead is due to the nerves. it happens all the time with people after they have passed away. My mother used to work in a nursing home and would help dress the dead. It wasnt uncommon for an arm to go straight up days after the person had died. So even after a person/mouse/whatever it might be has died, it still could move

for the comments about hearing noises from the mice as the snake starts to swallow it-it could be air being pushed through the lungs. when the air gets pushed out of the lungs up into the throat, noises can be produced. i live on a farm where we shoot groundhogs to stop them from digging up the ground. We shot one that was still 2/3 of the way in the hole and i had to get it out. when i took the shovel under the stomach to pick it out of the hole a noise was produced. scared the crap out of me. the thing was dead for sure, it had a bullet hole right between the eyes. the force of the shovel pushing the air out of the lungs and up into the throat had produced the noises that sounded like grunts and squeals.

to sum that up: dead things can move because of nerves and can make noises if air is pushed out of the lungs and into the throat

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I under stand dead stuff moves I was a cna at a hospice for 2 years. I also have killed a bunch of animals in lots of ways. I can tell when something is still alive a dead animal dose not make sounds over and over and moves over and over.

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

To sum it up: "However, constriction often kills small mammals faster than would be expected if suffocation were the immediate cause of death. In many snakes, constriction may be strong enough to collapse the blood vessels in small prey, which in turn would quickly stop the heart from working and lead to heart attack and stroke."

the movement of the mouse after it is dead is due to the nerves. it happens all the time with people after they have passed away. My mother used to work in a nursing home and would help dress the dead. It wasnt uncommon for an arm to go straight up days after the person had died. So even after a person/mouse/whatever it might be has died, it still could move

for the comments about hearing noises from the mice as the snake starts to swallow it-it could be air being pushed through the lungs. when the air gets pushed out of the lungs up into the throat, noises can be produced. i live on a farm where we shoot groundhogs to stop them from digging up the ground. We shot one that was still 2/3 of the way in the hole and i had to get it out. when i took the shovel under the stomach to pick it out of the hole a noise was produced. scared the crap out of me. the thing was dead for sure, it had a bullet hole right between the eyes. the force of the shovel pushing the air out of the lungs and up into the throat had produced the noises that sounded like grunts and squeals.

to sum that up: dead things can move because of nerves and can make noises if air is pushed out of the lungs and into the throat

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What Yamitaifu said.

It's also worth pointing out that a prey item that's stopped moving isn't necessarily dead. Depriving the brain of oxygen will cause and animal to lose consciousness long before death. That's why constrictors continue to squeeze for some time after movement stops. It's believed that the snake can feel the prey's heartbeat, and uses that to know when it's safe to start chowing down.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

I also have killed a bunch of animals in lots of ways.

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Um...

That's a little disturbing. Just sayin.


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Originally Posted by sorraia

Once again, movement, even noise, does NOT mean the animal is still alive.

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Agreed. Countless studies have been done and proven. Its the same as giving an electric charge to a heart that has been removed from a body. It will still pump and beat, but its dead


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

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Originally Posted by fishdip

I under stand dead stuff moves I was a cna at a hospice for 2 years. I also have killed a bunch of animals in lots of ways. I can tell when something is still alive a dead animal dose not make sounds over and over and moves over and over.

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Not true. I have killed rats to feed to my snakes multiple times. I do this by snapping the neck with a single quick jerk so that the rat does not suffer. On more than one occasion i have had rats go into a seizure like state where they will spazz out. The movements may be fast and constant or slow and random. Either way the rat was dead and kept moving. If i kept pushing air through the lungs and into the throat of an animal it would keep producing noise. The snake can do this by closing its mouth on the lungs of the rat and pushing the air out or by laying on the rat.

All in all the rats were dead and could still move and produce noise in a constant manner


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

What Yamitaifu said.

It's also worth pointing out that a prey item that's stopped moving isn't necessarily dead. Depriving the brain of oxygen will cause and animal to lose consciousness long before death. That's why constrictors continue to squeeze for some time after movement stops. It's believed that the snake can feel the prey's heartbeat, and uses that to know when it's safe to start chowing down.





Um...

That's a little disturbing. Just sayin.


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Nothing is wrong with killing. We as a civilization have gotten away from the killing of are own food and it has made us soft. Its like they say if slaughter house had glass walls more people would be a vegetarian.

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Originally Posted by Yamitaifu

Not true. I have killed rats to feed to my snakes multiple times. I do this by snapping the neck with a single quick jerk so that the rat does not suffer. On more than one occasion i have had rats go into a seizure like state where they will spazz out. The movements may be fast and constant or slow and random. Either way the rat was dead and kept moving. If i kept pushing air through the lungs and into the throat of an animal it would keep producing noise. The snake can do this by closing its mouth on the lungs of the rat and pushing the air out or by laying on the rat.

All in all the rats were dead and could still move and produce noise in a constant manner


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

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You are right animals act a lot different when you brake there neck then when you squeeze or cut its neck.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

Nothing is wrong with killing. We as a civilization have gotten away from the killing of are own food and it has made us soft. Its like they say if slaughter house had glass walls more people would be a vegetarian.

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True, and being a hunter myself, I think anyone who eats meat SHOULD kill the animal themselves. Still, you have to admit that the way you worded that WAS a little creepy.

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

True, and being a hunter myself, I think anyone who eats meat SHOULD kill the animal themselves. Still, you have to admit that the way you worded that WAS a little creepy.

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True since that is how most murders start out is with animal cruelty.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

One that looks like it was done by a 3rd grader 2nd I see no facts in that IE proof photos of dead feeders showing the broken veins that sort of stuff. Also I am not basing what I am seeing off it looking like he is squeezing it. I am deciding it off the feeder still moving. I know I have the grammar of a 3rd grader but think id be able to put out a better written research paper.

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Granted that is some gradeschool-level writing but if you click around just a bit you can see it was written by a professor at the University of Louisiana. The info there is kind of sparse (and includes WAY to many "probablies" for my taste)... but that article is also 13 years old.

I stumbled on a feeding video yesterday that might be what you're looking for: http://youtu.be/FFW5Iat82TI?t=1m51s It's a little graphic, but basically the mouse coughs up blood (and its eye looks bloody too) immediately upon constriction and it dies very quickly afterwards. Someone more knowledgeable than me can interject and explain what happened there, whether it's broken blood vessels, cardiac arrest, etc.

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Nothing is wrong with killing. We as a civilization have gotten away from the killing of are own food and it has made us soft. Its like they say if slaughter house had glass walls more people would be a vegetarian.

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I've seen that too. Interestingly enough, most people who see the slaughter process continue to eat meat afterwards.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

You are right animals act a lot different when you brake there neck then when you squeeze or cut its neck.

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I will say that in certain instances yes. But as aforementioned, animals and people can have the same effects if they died naturally or of other causes (the groundhog and human).


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

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Originally Posted by Thalasuchus

Granted that is some gradeschool-level writing but if you click around just a bit you can see it was written by a professor at the University of Louisiana. The info there is kind of sparse (and includes WAY to many "probablies" for my taste)... but that article is also 13 years old.

I stumbled on a feeding video yesterday that might be what you're looking for: http://youtu.be/FFW5Iat82TI?t=1m51s It's a little graphic, but basically the mouse coughs up blood (and its eye looks bloody too) immediately upon constriction and it dies very quickly afterwards. Someone more knowledgeable than me can interject and explain what happened there, whether it's broken blood vessels, cardiac arrest, etc.



I've seen that too. Interestingly enough, most people who see the slaughter process continue to eat meat afterwards.

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To me it looked like from the time it constricted to actual death time was 30 sec.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

To me it looked like from the time it constricted to actual death time was 30 sec.

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Which is faster than asphyxiation, and lest we forget the origin of this thread, much faster than being chewed to death by something that doesn't know how to kill efficiently. That mouse might as well have been chewing on a log with no goal in mind but to wear down its teeth, fill its belly and pass time. Like others have said (and I think I already said) it would've taken hours for that BP to die from its horrific injuries.

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Originally Posted by Thalasuchus

Granted that is some gradeschool-level writing but if you click around just a bit you can see it was written by a professor at the University of Louisiana. The info there is kind of sparse (and includes WAY to many "probablies" for my taste)... but that article is also 13 years old.

I stumbled on a feeding video yesterday that might be what you're looking for: http://youtu.be/FFW5Iat82TI?t=1m51s It's a little graphic, but basically the mouse coughs up blood (and its eye looks bloody too) immediately upon constriction and it dies very quickly afterwards. Someone more knowledgeable than me can interject and explain what happened there, whether it's broken blood vessels, cardiac arrest...

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There's a number of things going on. There are blood vessels rupturing from the pressure throughout its body. That's not only the cause of the bleeding in the eye, it's also the most likely cause of death. If there are vessels rupturing anywhere in the head, it's safe to assume that there are blowouts happening in the vessels of the brain. It's called a hypertensive stroke, and it's lethal.

As far as the bleeding from the mouth, it's impossible to say what's happening with 100% certainty, but there are a couple of things it's likely to be. There may be ruptures in the pulmonary vasculature, which would cause the lungs to fill with blood. It could also be the result of broken ribs puncturing one or both lungs.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

To me it looked like from the time it constricted to actual death time was 30 sec.

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That's way too fast for asphyxiation to kill. Hypertensive stroke can kill that fast, sometimes faster.



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Originally Posted by Thalasuchus

Which is faster than asphyxiation, and lest we forget the origin of this thread, much faster than being chewed to death by something that doesn't know how to kill efficiently. That mouse might as well have been chewing on a log with no goal in mind but to wear down its teeth, fill its belly and pass time. Like others have said (and I think I already said) it would've taken hours for that BP to die from its horrific injuries.

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This about sums it up. Its just as if you were laying on your deathbed. You either have the choice to a quick death, one that the rodent would have: set one by the crushing of blood vessels, crushed bones or if that all fails, asphyxiation. Or you can die a slow, painful death, the death that the snake had. Being slowly torn apart while still alive.

The mouse will normally (i say normally because there are exceptions) be killed in under a minute. The snake on the other hand will be alive for hours.

As you have said fishdip, you are a hunter. You know how important it is to get a clean shot at an animal. You want to get a shot that will drop it dead instantly or within seconds. You wouldnt want the animal to suffer, atleast i know i wouldnt. The snake has the ability and has adapted to kill a mouse or rat quickly. A much more humane way to die than being chewed apart


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

Its not seconds tho like some have stated.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

Its not seconds tho like some have stated.

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Yes it is. 30 seconds as you have said. Asphyxiation was not the cause of death. Lethal injection used on the criminals on death row may not even kill within seconds. There are factors that affect how long it will take to die. Body size, weight, etc


Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy snakes and that's pretty close

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I didn't expect to come back to this thread to find a trollfest.

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Seriously...

This thread went from "don't leave feeders unattended" to "you can eat a human if you killed him/her"

And just FYI, canibalims is illegal whether you killed a person or they died of natural causes. I can only imagine... "we didn't have the cash to bury grandma, so we ate her" Lol.

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Originally Posted by Misha

Seriously...

This thread went from "don't leave feeders unattended" to "you can eat a human if you killed him/her"

And just FYI, canibalims is illegal whether you killed a person or they died of natural causes. I can only imagine... "we didn't have the cash to bury grandma, so we ate her" Lol.

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What I am a firm believer in you eat what you kill. Lucky for me I have not had to kill some one yet.

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Originally Posted by fishdip

What I am a firm believer in you eat what you kill. Lucky for me I have not had to kill some one yet.

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Do you even read what you write? Stop trolling this thread and move on.

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I seem to remember this troll from about a year ago... don't feed it people.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/aqe3aquq.jpg

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Originally Posted by Misha

Do you even read what you write? Stop trolling this thread and move on.

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I am not trolling crap. If you cant keep up with the side jabs then you need to move along. Its funny when people who have nothing to add to a conversation always post something about trolling.

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Originally Posted by Misha

Seriously...

This thread went from "don't leave feeders unattended" to "you can eat a human if you killed him/her"

And just FYI, canibalims is illegal whether you killed a person or they died of natural causes. I can only imagine... "we didn't have the cash to bury grandma, so we ate her" Lol.

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If it's any consolation, I was just messing around. That was such a small part of the thread (what, 2 or 3 posts?) I actually forgot about it until you posted this. lol

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Originally Posted by fishdip

I am not trolling crap. If you cant keep up with the side jabs then you need to move along. Its funny when people who have nothing to add to a conversation always post something about trolling.

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I might get another infraction for this but it's worth it ;) Lol.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/7eqa9eqa.jpg

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Originally Posted by Misha

I might get another infraction for this but it's worth it ;) Lol.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/7eqa9eqa.jpg

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What's really funny is you post crap like this but yet you keep replying to my post. Go home noob your drunk. :rofl: