Colubrids vs Boids - Intelligence

That link doesn't seem to be working: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL0yl...ature=youtu.be

Must be something in the water........................................
Play nice OR don't play at all.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Must be something in the water........................................
Play nice OR don't play at all.

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You know I always do.

I'm not worried about that guy. His links don't even work and he's yet to disprove what I've been saying all along. You're my best buddy Pit :P.

Since this is on par with a snake's learning capabilities... http://www.anapsid.org/smartsnakes.html

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Since this is on par with a snake's learning capabilities... http://www.anapsid.org/smartsnakes.html

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Definitely an interesting read, and while I don't do studies like that I do believe that my Rufous Beaked know which way is out. The exo-terra I have them in opens from the top and from the front, but I've never taken them out of the top, but only the front. I'll see the two I take out quite often looking out of the front and just sitting there like they're waiting for the glass to open. I'm not saying that's the case, but it's what I've noticed. What really freaks me out is when I'm on the computer which is directly in front of the cage, just the other side, my longer one sits there and seemingly watches me. It actually kind of creeps me out, because if I go lay down or something, he basically follows me and sits there and watches. He doesn't always do this, but I'd say several times a week. I also once took one of them out and left the glass not all the way closed and I was sitting on the bed handling him and I watched my littlest one come straight from one of the holes he was peering through and went straight through the crack in the two doors. Granted I only left it open because I didn't expect any of them to come out and I was only a few feet from the tank.

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Originally Posted by Neal

You know I always do.

I'm not worried about that guy. His links don't even work and he's yet to disprove what I've been saying all along. You're my best buddy Pit :P.

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Where is your proof Neal - your experience with one friend's snake or perusing through videos? I'm confused as to why you would pick a forum fight based on so little direct experience with an animal.

I don't keep cobras, but I've handled them. After you and Crotalids did your little round of slap fighting on each other I asked a very good friend of mine who keeps rinkhals, coral cobras and true cobras (and has done so for years) and he laughed and claimed that they can strike from any angle, hooded or not, awkward or not. In fact he took a dry bite on his forearm from a taiwanese cobra that he estimates had to - while hooded - strike up almost 2' to hit him.

....and that anyone who perceives that their strikes are limited will be in for a nasty surprise. So, forget Crotalids, I wan't to get back to my friend Chuck and tell him he's wrong. Before I use you as an example, provide me with the ammo to do so.

Well that's certainly a good thing to know. It would suck to assume a snake can't strike you from certain angles only to find out the hard way that it was only a myth.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Since this is on par with a snake's learning capabilities... http://www.anapsid.org/smartsnakes.html

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This is exactly what I've said for quite a while now. If you're using the same metrics to determine a snake's intelligence that you would use with say, a dog or a cat, you're only going to prove that the idiot in the room is NOT the snake. A very simple example is getting one of them to come to you when you call them. Saying a snake is less intelligent SOLELY because it won't come when called is ridiculous. They could be 4x more intelligent than the dog you're calling, but they're unable to hear you call.

Any animal with the mental capacity to react to sensory stimulus can learn to some degree, and that includes Ball Pythons. The problem with actively trying to teach them anything is figuring out HOW to teach them. You have to be able to think critically, which some people here clearly don't understand. Yes, there are limits to what they can be "taught," and what they can learn, but if you put a few of YOUR OWN brain cells to work, the limits are a bit further out than you probably think.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Where is your proof Neal - your experience with one friend's snake or perusing through videos? I'm confused as to why you would pick a forum fight based on so little direct experience with an animal.

I don't keep cobras, but I've handled them. After you and Crotalids did your little round of slap fighting on each other I asked a very good friend of mine who keeps rinkhals, coral cobras and true cobras (and has done so for years) and he laughed and claimed that they can strike from any angle, hooded or not, awkward or not. In fact he took a dry bite on his forearm from a taiwanese cobra that he estimates had to - while hooded - strike up almost 2' to hit him.

....and that anyone who perceives that their strikes are limited will be in for a nasty surprise. So, forget Crotalids, I wan't to get back to my friend Chuck and tell him he's wrong. Before I use you as an example, provide me with the ammo to do so.

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Skip, I still haven't seen it happen. So my original statement may of been wrong, but it was from the experience that I have. Yes I don't keep cobras so I don't see them daily and I don't see their feeding responses. So with all that said I may of been wrong. If so then I'll gladly admit that I am, but I have yet to see it happen, but that doesn't mean it hasn't or it can't happen. I don't claim to know everything, I was simply pointing out the Crotalids that I haven't witnessed it happen. Then I just asked him to provide proof, so that way I can see first hand and correct my information.

I haven't seen a man lift a vehicle, but I remember seeing something on the news ages ago about a man lifting a car off of a kid to save the kids life. I'm not saying it can't be done but I've not seen it. I probably should of put that in my experience I haven't seen one strike up from a hooded position, that probably would of saved the whole argument. The way I was approached put me in the wrong mood, so with you being a friend and somebody I respect a lot I find your approach a lot differently. So yea, I'm probably wrong, but again with my limited experience I've yet to see it. I'm actually glad I haven't because if I would of then I would of most likely gotten bit.

On another forum I peruse, someone has said that they seemed to have 'trained' their corn snake to poop in a specific garbage can. According to this source, what he intially did was take the snake out and hold it over said garbage can (I can't remember the colour of it... may or may not factor in) and wait for it to do it's thing. He did it for weeks, and apparently the snake only goes in the garbage can now.

My guess is he got it out and moving around to get the bowls going, then held it over the can and waited, and continued doing so for several weeks as he said. BUT the snake no longer goes in its vive, apparently. Even if he feeds it two meals, or doesn't take it out 'to poop' on the normally scheduled day to do so (my guess is about 3 days after eating).

Unfortunately I can't find the thread, and it was a few months ago... so I could be getting some details mixed up.

Regardless, what do you all think about that?

I think it is possible! Like, if you kept on a schedule as you would with feeding. It's a fun idea anyways :P kind of like litter training... ish.

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Originally Posted by NH93

On another forum I peruse, someone has said that they seemed to have 'trained' their corn snake to poop in a specific garbage can. According to this source, what he intially did was take the snake out and hold it over said garbage can (I can't remember the colour of it... may or may not factor in) and wait for it to do it's thing. He did it for weeks, and apparently the snake only goes in the garbage can now.

My guess is he got it out and moving around to get the bowls going, then held it over the can and waited, and continued doing so for several weeks as he said. BUT the snake no longer goes in its vive, apparently. Even if he feeds it two meals, or doesn't take it out 'to poop' on the normally scheduled day to do so (my guess is about 3 days after eating).

Unfortunately I can't find the thread, and it was a few months ago... so I could be getting some details mixed up.

Regardless, what do you all think about that?

I think it is possible! Like, if you kept on a schedule as you would with feeding. It's a fun idea anyways :P kind of like litter training... ish.

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I've always hoped it would be possible to train snakes to do certain small tasks on their own. Potty training being a key thing. Imagine only having to clean up a small area of your tank because it's the "poop corner" or not at all because your snake poops in the garbage or the toilet? Or not having to worry about your snake pooping on you? That's happened to me a couple of times :[

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Originally Posted by Neal

Skip, I still haven't seen it happen. So my original statement may of been wrong, but it was from the experience that I have. Yes I don't keep cobras so I don't see them daily and I don't see their feeding responses. So with all that said I may of been wrong. If so then I'll gladly admit that I am, but I have yet to see it happen, but that doesn't mean it hasn't or it can't happen. I don't claim to know everything, I was simply pointing out the Crotalids that I haven't witnessed it happen. Then I just asked him to provide proof, so that way I can see first hand and correct my information.

I haven't seen a man lift a vehicle, but I remember seeing something on the news ages ago about a man lifting a car off of a kid to save the kids life. I'm not saying it can't be done but I've not seen it. I probably should of put that in my experience I haven't seen one strike up from a hooded position, that probably would of saved the whole argument. The way I was approached put me in the wrong mood, so with you being a friend and somebody I respect a lot I find your approach a lot differently. So yea, I'm probably wrong, but again with my limited experience I've yet to see it. I'm actually glad I haven't because if I would of then I would of most likely gotten bit.

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Neal, it's cool. I think that guys like Crotalids and Najakeeper and other hot herpers live in a world where the difference between life as usual and a trip to the ER is defined by never taking anything for granted and learning their snakes - not relying on opinion. Relying on opinion or on someone else's opinion can cost your dearly when dealing with hot herps.

I kept boomslangs for a while as well as cerastes and native crotalids. The game of inches wore on me and frankly made the hobby much less enjoyable. But I understand the mindset and how realizing that there are no absolutes when it comes to snake behavior can make all the difference in the world.

I'm not going to name names, but there was a well-known hot keeper who got tagged by his atrox because it was HIS opinion that vipers would always focus on a heat source when striking and disregard all other movement as long as the heat source was moving. He would distract the snake with his bare left hand and then tail it with a gloved right hand. He would tell anyone who would listen that this was an iron clad truth with viperids.

For many years, that tactic worked until he took a massive hit on his gloved right hand while trying to tail said atrox.

See, HIS opinion did not matter to the snake. HIS opinion meant diddly over squat in the end.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm not going to name names, but there was a well-known hot keeper who got tagged by his atrox because it was HIS opinion that vipers would always focus on a heat source when striking and disregard all other movement as long as the heat source was moving. He would distract the snake with his bare left hand and then tail it with a gloved right hand. He would tell anyone who would listen that this was an iron clad truth with viperids.

For many years, that tactic worked until he took a massive hit on his gloved right hand while trying to tail said atrox.

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Sounds like Murphy's law. From what I've been told, getting comfortable around hots is the last mistake anyone wants to make. There isn't any room for "opinions."

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Originally Posted by NH93

On another forum I peruse, someone has said that they seemed to have 'trained' their corn snake to poop in a specific garbage can. According to this source, what he intially did was take the snake out and hold it over said garbage can (I can't remember the colour of it... may or may not factor in) and wait for it to do it's thing. He did it for weeks, and apparently the snake only goes in the garbage can now.

My guess is he got it out and moving around to get the bowls going, then held it over the can and waited, and continued doing so for several weeks as he said. BUT the snake no longer goes in its vive, apparently. Even if he feeds it two meals, or doesn't take it out 'to poop' on the normally scheduled day to do so (my guess is about 3 days after eating).

Unfortunately I can't find the thread, and it was a few months ago... so I could be getting some details mixed up.

Regardless, what do you all think about that?

I think it is possible! Like, if you kept on a schedule as you would with feeding. It's a fun idea anyways :P kind of like litter training... ish.

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Maybe. One lady on youtube (anyone who lurks the video tubes probably knows who I'm talking about) did the same with her carpet python. It only poops outside. I think it's likely the snake learns to associate certain surroundings with doing a certain natural action, and picks up on the habit. I remember reading about one reticulated python who learned part of his enclosure cleaning routine. After his enclosure was cleaned, he would be moved from his holding container back to his cage. After a while, he would just crawl out of the holding container and back into his enclosure without any assistance.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Neal, it's cool. I think that guys like Crotalids and Najakeeper and other hot herpers live in a world where the difference between life as usual and a trip to the ER is defined by never taking anything for granted and learning their snakes - not relying on opinion. Relying on opinion or on someone else's opinion can cost your dearly when dealing with hot herps.

I kept boomslangs for a while as well as cerastes and native crotalids. The game of inches wore on me and frankly made the hobby much less enjoyable. But I understand the mindset and how realizing that there are no absolutes when it comes to snake behavior can make all the difference in the world.

I'm not going to name names, but there was a well-known hot keeper who got tagged by his atrox because it was HIS opinion that vipers would always focus on a heat source when striking and disregard all other movement as long as the heat source was moving. He would distract the snake with his bare left hand and then tail it with a gloved right hand. He would tell anyone who would listen that this was an iron clad truth with viperids.

For many years, that tactic worked until he took a massive hit on his gloved right hand while trying to tail said atrox.

See, HIS opinion did not matter to the snake. HIS opinion meant diddly over squat in the end.

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Reminds me that we thought that Rufous hunted primarily with sight, but when I did my little study of hand feeding one tried to eat my pinky finger lol. They do rely on scent when they go into feeding mode. So yea, I see your point bro.

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Originally Posted by Neal

Reminds me that we thought that Rufous hunted primarily with sight, but when I did my little study of hand feeding one tried to eat my pinky finger lol. They do rely on scent when they go into feeding mode. So yea, I see your point bro.

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Don't you think it's possible that they, by chance, rely on both sight and scent to hunt? Just imagine what it would be like to have the eyes of a snake though- they typically only see from the sides of their heads as their eyes don't point forward much (although there are exceptions, as many arboreal species are) which would effect their depth perception and focus, not to mention how small those eyeballs are. Snakes, like a lot of predators (and human males, apparently) have eyesight that's quite sensitive to movement. According to that study I posted, they can also pick up details. Just only as they would see it.
Your pinky, having the smell of a mouse, was likely seen as, coincidentally, a mouse pinky. (lol) Odds are, he probably didn't notice it as attached to your hand, or not having any other rodent like features.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Don't you think it's possible that they, by chance, rely on both sight and scent to hunt? Just imagine what it would be like to have the eyes of a snake though- they typically only see from the sides of their heads as their eyes don't point forward much (although there are exceptions, as many arboreal species are) which would effect their depth perception and focus, not to mention how small those eyeballs are. Snakes, like a lot of predators (and human males, apparently) have eyesight that's quite sensitive to movement. According to that study I posted, they can also pick up details. Just only as they would see it.
Your pinky, having the smell of a mouse, was likely seen as, coincidentally, a mouse pinky. (lol) Odds are, he probably didn't notice it as attached to your hand, or not having any other rodent like features.

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There was no pinky after he was done eating, the pinky was sitting on my palm, and he went for my pinky. So while he may of still used sight, he relied more on scent.

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Originally Posted by Neal

There was no pinky after he was done eating, the pinky was sitting on my palm, and he went for my pinky. So while he may of still used sight, he relied more on scent.

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It's most likely a bit more complicated than that, but you're headed in the right direction.

For an animal that lacks binocular vision, depth perception works a lot like a camera. If you look at a photo with a very shallow depth of field, you'll have an idea of how the world looks to them, because they can only focus at one distance at a time. Your fingertip probably looked just like a pinky mouse, since the rest of your hand was out of focus. The fact that you smelled like a mouse just confirmed it for the snake. It's not so much that he relied on scent to find prey. It's more like he saw something that looked like prey, and the scent agreed with the eyes.

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

It's most likely a bit more complicated than that, but you're headed in the right direction.

For an animal that lacks binocular vision, depth perception works a lot like a camera. If you look at a photo with a very shallow depth of field, you'll have an idea of how the world looks to them, because they can only focus at one distance at a time. Your fingertip probably looked just like a pinky mouse, since the rest of your hand was out of focus. The fact that you smelled like a mouse just confirmed it for the snake. It's not so much that he relied on scent to find prey. It's more like he saw something that looked like prey, and the scent agreed with the eyes.

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Yea, but it's the wrong color :P.

Yea, I don't know about all the depth perception and all but it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

It's most likely a bit more complicated than that, but you're headed in the right direction.

For an animal that lacks binocular vision, depth perception works a lot like a camera. If you look at a photo with a very shallow depth of field, you'll have an idea of how the world looks to them, because they can only focus at one distance at a time. Your fingertip probably looked just like a pinky mouse, since the rest of your hand was out of focus. The fact that you smelled like a mouse just confirmed it for the snake. It's not so much that he relied on scent to find prey. It's more like he saw something that looked like prey, and the scent agreed with the eyes.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk

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Wow, you said it hell of a lot better than I did. Kudos!:gj: