Scale-less BP photo!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trevo

Come to think of it, How many times do breeders get dead eggs, or snakes that die off relatively quickly after hatching that aren't scaleless?? How come that okay, but the second it scaleless we throw our hands in the air?

---

I have to definitely agree with this point. The kinks and eye issues among others are prime examples of it.

My word. What a bunch of foul tempered brats we have here!

By your logic, spider ball pythons should have been eliminated as soon as it was learned they wobbled. No self respecting breeder would own or breed anything with spider in it because of the glaring defect they have. And it carries through the genes no matter how many others may be present or how much it is outcrossed. I don't see anybody vilifying the thousands of people who own and breed spiders knowing they are defective. So why slam the people who bred this? It's the same difference. Spiders are not normal, and everyone knows they aren't normal, but I don't see them being removed from the hobby because of it. Some people accept it, some do not.

And how do you know these animals won't be able to live normally and comfortably? Just because of the way they look? By that logic, spiders shouldn't be able to live normally either. There are of course a few exceptions, animals whose defect is so severe it prevents them from being able to hunt or even swallow prey. But by and large, even those who show the defect severely can still function normally enough to eat, shed, poop and breed. So why automatically assume these can't? Unless it becomes obvious they cannot eat or shed or poop on their own, why condemn them and the people who bred them?

I am quite sure if it becomes obvious they cannot survive normally, they will quietly fade away like the Pearl did. But until then, get a grip on your high and mighty selves. Personally, I think they will do just fine and given enough time, we will eventually see more of them being bred by other breeders. I wouldn't mind having one myself. Not that I could afford it, but I think they look delightfully strange and I'd be happy to have one in my collection.

Gale

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

I don't see anybody vilifying the thousands of people who own and breed spiders knowing they are defective. So why slam the people who bred this? It's the same difference.

---

Absolutely agree with this. Its simply a distinction without a difference.

Honestly as long as these snakes thrive I can't wait to get one! Very unique animal :gj:

Beautiful animal. Congratulations to Brian!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?

Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?

And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.

Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.


Sent From an Enclosure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?

Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?

And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.

Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.


Sent From an Enclosure

---

So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers?

My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally.

Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

Here is a different and larger pic that is now out. You can see the egg tooth if you save it and view it full size.

BHB says the animal has heat sensors, just no pits. He is also bringing at least one to NARBC Tinley Park next week for in-person viewing. Anxious to see it there!

I have been apathetic about the scaleless corns, and not a fan of scaleless beardeds, but I do like this iteration. Def lots of interesting visual possibilities!

---

Just another reason to enjoy Tinley!!! Can't wait!


Also, instead of sitting here arguing how about we just WAIT? I mean seriously everyone is jumping on there own trains complaining when in reality we have NO IDEA what, if any problems the scaleless Royal will have.. It's like watching a trailer on a new video game and than complaining that you didn't like it when you played it........ (Meaning you NEVER played it)

In the end people will always disagree, we will NEVER all agree on a single topic besides that fact we LOVE reptiles, people will argue desserts are useless because of the female problems.. That spiders shouldn't be bred because they wobble, there will Lways be a argument with stuff like this... But right now we should just but our own opinions aside and WAIT to see if anything develops, than we can all go back to arguing. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers?

My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally.

Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

So wait, I'm foolish because I choose not to own a scaleless gene ball python? Well thank you sir! Your elitist attitude has opened my eyes to my ignorance and now I know! I can see clearly now!

And please don't put words in my mouth because this is all in writing, and it makes you look like you are digging to find reasons to insult me.

And maybe, just maybe grab a dictionary, because certain points of your post don't grammatically make sense in context; a physical defect I have no mandate to own? Come again? Did I ever claim ownership of this defect? No, I did not. I was merely stating my opinion on the matter.

And since when did having an opinion about a topic mean I need to get over myself? In case you haven't noticed, I'M not making this into something it's not. There are two majority sides on this topic; people who like it and people who don't. I haven't made it anything.


Sent From an Enclosure

You miss the point where ALL morphs are "naturally occurring". They weren't dreamed up somewhere, or made in a test tube, they were pulled out of the wild (ie, nature). I can't really think of a single morph that didn't come out of, at some point, an animal either pulled from the wild or found to have a genetic trait while otherwise appearing normal, or "wild type". The Scaleless Head was pulled out of the wild (either captive hatched from a wild mom or caught as an adult, I don't know but it doesn't really matter), and, just going off of the fact that reptiles never move far from where they were hatched, a naturally scaleless BP could have occurred. If that snake had been pulled out of a burrow and shipped over, would you still be having this argument? Because, by your reasoning, it's a "naturally occurring" animal, and is therefore not some freakish creation dreamed up by one of the guys who is most passionate about his animals in the entire business.

Edited to add that I'm super excited about the Scaleless Ball and am super interested to see if the little ones survive and thrive and I hope they do. They're amazing little creatures and I hope Brian all the best going through with the project.

Disgusting animal.

Not sure what is wrong with what nature gave us, there are hundreds of naturally pretty snakes. But for some reason humans like to ruin an animal.

Okay. I'm just now tuning into this thread and wow has this site changed in the last couples of months. The way I'm going to try and explain this snake may make some upset but hopefully not. Here goes.

Basically what you guys are telling me is that no one should have this snake because it's scaleless and that's a deformity? All morphs are deformities. Now comes my comparison, so you're telling me that children born without limbs and with autism should thrown out? Isn't that what you're saying about this animal? My best friend has a prosthetic leg and arm, that's a deformity, whether snake or human, everyone deserves a chance!:mad:

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therunaway

All morphs are deformities. Now comes my comparison, so you're telling me that children born without limbs and with autism should thrown out? Isn't that what you're saying about this animal? My best friend has a prosthetic leg and arm, that's a deformity, whether snake or human, everyone deserves a chance!:mad:

---

Would you deliberately breed children to be born without limbs or with autism though?

I'll wait until we know more about this morph before I pass judgement.

You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therunaway

You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

---

It's not missing the point, it was the fact your point was a stupid statement to make.

Deformities in humans aren't encouraged, where as, deformities in reptiles are encouraged and are purposely bred.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers?

My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally.

Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

This is nothing new, this division has been there for a LONG time. There is a high number of herpetologists and hobbyists out there what despise what we "do" in the ball python world. Some do go as far as only keeping specific localities of animals and keeping blood lines pure. But on that, I think the morelia keepers are far worse, mixing species and subspecies like its nothing... this I HATE, you have no idea what your buying any more the bloodlines are so muddled. As far as I know there are no subspecies of ball pythons, so breed away. I am 100% anti hybrid.

As for the scaleless thing, not my cup of tea, and I will have to agree with expensivehobby on everything he has said thus far. We have to have a point where we stop if anyone is ever going to take us seriously, the 'serious' side of the community already sees us as a danger to the hobby, not to mention a joke.

The whole thing about dogs that was brought up, well with some breeds the point of no return has been reached, and it should be illegal, were at the point where the only way they can reproduce is by cutting them open because they can no longer give birth naturally, its sick. And thats where were headed with ball pythons, and corns and all of these other 'designer' snakes.

We have already gone this far, its here, its here to stay, I just hope it stops here. And maybe its not all that bad, maybe I just have an extremist view here, I dont know, but it will be interesting to see how the rest of the herp community reacts to this. I just hope that these animals are anatomically correct, minus the scales, and as we all can see by the picture, it doesn't have heat pits so were already screwing with that. It will be interesting to see how the animal develops.

I am interested in seeing how it turns out! Beautiful animal :)

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

Is it me or are people in this thread talking like this is the first scaleless snake in the hobby. Guys it is only the first scaleless ball python. Also some of these arguments are manipulation of the other's words just to prove who is right, is this the youtube comment section now? Can we at least have a logical argument?

Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.

I am just stating my opinion for the purpose of provoking thought. I do not wish to argue. I "feel" that selectively breeding for traits, or deformities, etc. that diminish the animal's natural abilities , i.e. heat sensory, locomotion, etc., is indulgent and gives little consideration to the welfare of the animal. Be it scaleless snakes, hairless cats, pug nosed dogs, these are all examples of human's folly to appease their own curiousity and/or desires, while leaving the animal diminished.

Those that will argue about naturally occurring morphs such as the scaleless head, pied, etc. need to consider that natural selection will opt to eliminate those mutations that do not promote the species' existance. This is why albinism is not found in huge numbers or whole populations. As the animal is much more easily seen, it makes it much more vulnerable to predation. Perhaps if it were to avoid predation long enough it would prove to be susceptible to irradtiation from the sun and succumb to cancer (speculating I know). Further, I "believe" the arguement of selectively breeding children without arms, while extreme, makes the point well. People would probably percieve it as cruel and irresponsible since the result would hinder the ability of the person to live normally as we know one should live. There would likely be extreme debates and protests over the issue, if not legislation in the end. This is no different. It is just a different species with no advocate.

The owner of this animal has chosen to promote a birth defect, not a characteristic. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Snakes have scales as the emperical data will confirm. That is a characteristic of snakes. The defect is one that likely would not promote nor enhance the survival of the animal, if it were to exist in a natural environment and had to fend for itself. And while this might be an opinion, it is only so because there has been no study of scaleless snakes in the wild. You may want to ask yourself, "why that is"?

In my "opinion" a scaleless snake is not a positive for ball pythons. Just my 0.02

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Is it me or are people in this thread talking like this is the first scaleless snake in the hobby. Guys it is only the first scaleless ball python. Also some of these arguments are manipulation of the other's words just to prove who is right, is this the youtube comment section now? Can we at least have a logical argument?

Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.

---

Not the first scaleless ball python, also not the first scaleless snake, I understand that, and scaleless snakes, if what someone previously said is true, can be found in the wild, not really my argument. (Not saying what you said was specifically directed at me either) The animal may be fine, I however wont support it. The biggest issue I see here is that it has not heat pits, something that these animals have for a reason. My point is, where does it stop? There has to be a line where this becomes unmoral, and I feel, personally, that this is it. I guess this is the point where I just step back, observe, and see how this all plays out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlditmars

I am just stating my opinion for the purpose of provoking thought. I do not wish to argue. I "feel" that selectively breeding for traits, or deformities, etc. that diminish the animal's natural abilities , i.e. heat sensory, locomotion, etc., is indulgent and gives little consideration to the welfare of the animal. Be it scaleless snakes, hairless cats, pug nosed dogs, these are all examples of human's folly to appease their own curiousity and/or desires, while leaving the animal diminished.

Those that will argue about naturally occurring morphs such as the scaleless head, pied, etc. need to consider that natural selection will opt to eliminate those mutations that do not promote the species' existance. This is why albinism is not found in huge numbers or whole populations. As the animal is much more easily seen, it makes it much more vulnerable to predation. Perhaps if it were to avoid predation long enough it would prove to be susceptible to irradtiation from the sun and succumb to cancer (speculating I know). Further, I "believe" the arguement of selectively breeding children without arms, while extreme, makes the point well. People would probably percieve it as cruel and irresponsible since the result would hinder the ability of the person to live normally as we know one should live. There would likely be extreme debates and protests over the issue, if not legislation in the end. This is no different. It is just a different species with no advocate.

The owner of this animal has chosen to promote a birth defect, not a characteristic. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Snakes have scales as the emperical data will confirm. That is a characteristic of snakes. The defect is one that likely would not promote nor enhance the survival of the animal, if it were to exist in a natural environment and had to fend for itself. And while this might be an opinion, it is only so because there has been no study of scaleless snakes in the wild. You may want to ask yourself, "why that is"?

In my "opinion" a scaleless snake is not a positive for ball pythons. Just my 0.02

---

Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts :) but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own.

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Not the first scaleless ball python, also not the first scaleless snake, I understand that, and scaleless snakes, if what someone previously said is true, can be found in the wild, not really my argument. (Not saying what you said was specifically directed at me either) The animal may be fine, I however wont support it. The biggest issue I see here is that it has not heat pits, something that these animals have for a reason. My point is, where does it stop? There has to be a line where this becomes unmoral, and I feel, personally, that this is it. I guess this is the point where I just step back, observe, and see how this all plays out.

---

The dermaball never really entered the hobby, one animal came and passed. I think your speculating about the heat pits being an issue. As for where does it stop... everyone has a line. It's wasn't so common when I got in the hobby, but talk to old timers and they will tell you about the days there were people against any morph because they were unnatural. Pastel and Hypo were abominations. Actually I don't know if ball pythons had that kind of blacklash as much as many colubrids did, but there were purists in that sense. We still have people now that will not work with any of the morphs I posted up above. I will wait to actually see how the scaleless does before I draw a line or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts :) but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own.

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

---

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

I like the look but I would not make a jump to acquire one until I know this one was thriving for at least 2 years.( plus it be years before I could afford one lol)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

---

I agree with this 100%.
Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by therunaway

You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!

---

That really is apples to oranges and I wont get into a debate on the problems with human reproduction due not only to ignorance of the people but also the greed of out food growers to pump tons of chemicals in our foods. Last time I checked we were not using chemicals to create our morphs, just selective breeding and luck.:gj:


Now to touch on something going on here.
Keep all posts on topic and without all the underhanded bickering.
I understand we all have an opinion but if yours is going to stink up the thread then keep it to yourself.

It is just me, or does it look like it's head has a cut in it? you can see it more clearly in this photo:

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/...44003812_n.jpg

Looks like a wrinkle.

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?

Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?

And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.

Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.


Sent From an Enclosure

---

Yeah, but you still keep snakes, who belong in the wild in a snake so your saying sometimes going against nature is okay, but only if you agree with the degree

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone.

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakeman13

I agree with this 100%.
Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

---

The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.

Allelic genes are now an issue?

Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?

I'm not really a fan of it personally but i wont tell someone else not to do something because i wouldn't want them telling me not to do something. If you're gunna freak out over this then you have to freak out over previous scaleless snakes that have been made, hybrids that couldnt occur naturally, spiders wobbling and every other defect that has a chance of occuring in balls... Also you should branch out and be sure to get your panties in a bunch over other stuff like all the dumb AKC standards that have gotten dogs to be bred to look so deformed. I'm sure i could find stuff in EVERY animal hobby that people could freak out over. But honestly, whats the point? If you don't like it, just don't pay any attention to it... Simple as that. :rolleyes:

uuuuuh.... since i last checked the thread, lots of strawmans are coming up. in some cases people exaggerate and distort what other people say.

here a statement i fully agree with:

Quote:

---

The whole thing about dogs that was brought up, well with some breeds the point of no return has been reached, and it should be illegal, were at the point where the only way they can reproduce is by cutting them open because they can no longer give birth naturally, its sick. And thats where were headed with ball pythons, and corns and all of these other 'designer' snakes.

We have already gone this far, its here, its here to stay, I just hope it stops here. And maybe its not all that bad, maybe I just have an extremist view here, I dont know, but it will be interesting to see how the rest of the herp community reacts to this. I just hope that these animals are anatomically correct, minus the scales, and as we all can see by the picture, it doesn't have heat pits so were already screwing with that. It will be interesting to see how the animal develops.

---

100% agreed


The thing with Spider is: We breed them for the optics, and we justify it because in most cases the wobble is very slight. like the occasional head tilt. many show only a slight wobble when excited about food. But most importantly: noone tries to breed spiders that wobble and corcscrew like crazy.

or, super cinnamon / super black pastel: yes they have a duckbill rather often, and very rare spine kinks. Now the duckbill would be something that probarbly can be line-bred into larger and more extreme duckbills. a bit like the flat-faced pekinese dogs or the tiny legged dachshund. We could go down that road and make a shovelhead breed of BPs. We dont. instead people are proud when they have super cinnys that show no duckbill at all.

so its MAINLY about the optics, and we accept some health issues / anatomic issues because they only occur infrequently and most animals are not affected by it. When we do a risky morph or combo, we HOPE for the 90%+ of cases where the BP is totally fine and accept a few percentage points of risk that come with it.

Even then, many breeders avoid the issues alltogether, even if they want the optics. To go for patternless black, they save up for mahogany or GHI instead of doing a super black pastel. To go for a BEL, they go for lesser mojave or russo white diamond to avoid super lessers. Some avoid spider, and instead go for high-white calico, or pinstripe.

and all is fine. some people avoid a risk of 5% of getting a deformity, others dont and hope for the best and that is acceptable.


The key difference, the fundamental game-changer, and i think also the reason for the controversy is that with scaleless, we now have a form that has a 100% chance for not one, but two serious defects.

100% chance that the heat pits are gone and 100% chance that the belly scales are gone. many people argue "all morphs are defects, this is no different from any other morph". that argument does not work, there is a real difference: there are many spiders that are virtually free of wobble, and we do not breed them for the wobble. and we do not breed super cinnys for the duckbill, and many dont have one.

that is the core difference between scaleless and any other BP morph. Scaleless BPs do not have a morph issue like: "sometimes diminished heat-pits; and a few of them also have reduced or partially missing belly scales". its much more drastic: all heat pits gone in 100% of the cases, all belly scales gone in 100% of the cases.

This is where scaleless crosses the line and becomes a singularity, a morph more extreme than any other morph with possible defects. And a morph that cannot be compared in a meaningful way to any other morph with possible defects known so far.

if scaleless BPs would have belly scales and heat pits, it would be a totally different story. thats why it also cannot be compared to scaleless corn snakes and scaleless texas rats in a meaningful way. they keep their belly scales and also some scales around their mouth, and they do not have heat pits anyway. they do not have the issues that we have with this line of scaleless BPs.

i like the discussion and i think the discussion is needed, but some statements and arguments are not helpful.

"all morphs are defects, this is no different!" <-- not helpful.
"its just like scaleless corns or hairless rats" <-- not particularly helpful, because... no.
"if you dont like scaleless, stop breeding alltogether" <-- wooot? no.
"we breed morphs with defects all the time" <-- true to a degree, but when we do, we dont AIM for the defect, we accept a certain risk but hope for the best, so its not the same.
"BPs often die in the egg or shortly after hatching" <-- again, not helpful, because that cannot be avoided. we dont do it intentionally.
"its unnatural, wouldnt survive in the wild" <-- also not helpful, its about pets, a white snake would also have problems.
"all morphs are natural and come from Africa and occasionally occur in nature" <-- doesnt help to decide what to do with the most extreme BP morph ever discovered.


this one is not like any other morph, its very very VERY different. i dont think truisms and blanket statements and pointing to the spider morph will be helpful in figuring it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.

Allelic genes are now an issue?

Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?

---

I have no problem naming names.
The breeder I am speaking of is very, very well known.
He has had a few misadventures in the reptile industry.
His name is, Craig Stewart of the "Urban" industry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trevo

Yeah, but you still keep snakes, who belong in the wild in a snake so your saying sometimes going against nature is okay, but only if you agree with the degree

---

You are stretching an already weak argument way to thin. To that point, all animals should be let in the wild, because they ALL at some point came from the wild. What's wrong with this kindergarten country and people's inability to reason without jumping to extremes.

My view, it is ok to keep animals, as long as you do so in a manner that keeps quality of life paramount and you do not do things to them or with them that infringes on that quality. Breeding a snake purposefully to be anatomically incomplete is where I draw the line.

I have iterated and reiterated this point time and time again; pretty paint jobs are ok, breeding the snake to be without its most basic anatomical features is not.


Sent From an Enclosure

I refuse to knowingly work with any of the morphs that OWAL listed, because I refuse to knowingly breed an animal that could have a neurological problem or physical deformity. That isn't a "Oops, this one has an issue," that's, "I don't care if this one has an issue, it LOOKS good, so breed it." I personally couldn't do it because it would weigh too heavy on my conscious (I also couldn't dock a dog's tail or crop it's ears). That's the same reason I dislike people who have taken the dachshund breed so far from what it should be; a standard doxie doesn't have 3" long legs and the other physical characteristics that people decided they needed to have that did NOT contribute to the health of the animal, but instead caused MORE problems. And maybe I'm a hypocrite because I allowed my daughter to buy a hairless dumbo rat, but in my defense, I thought this was a naturally occurring animal and not one that had been purposefully bred to be this way. I found that out after Pinky became part of our family. But I would not ever breed this species knowing that, even though Pinky has a happy and healthy life and no health issues.

If this scaleless BP proves to have no health problems, then I'll feel a whole lot more comfortable about it existing. Until then, I'm just not comfortable with it. I'm really curious to know how it is going to move without belly scales, cause right now, I imagine it moving about as well as an eel let loose on a greased floor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.

Allelic genes are now an issue?

Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?

---

I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same. Only care about money and not the animals.

Any individual that bred the spider, and released it to the public is an idiot. The moment where that gene showed head wobbles etc, it should've been stopped, there and then. But no, of course, these guys don't care about the animals like I said, they only care about money.

Who knows what problems these scaleless BP's will have, because they 100% won't be telling you, guess you'll have to find out once they're cheap enough for the public to afford.

Barring problems. I personally think it would be a great addition to my collection and look forward to seeing what comes of it.

This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

I'm happy to see others point of view and I do. The people who say its okay to do somethings that aren't natural but not others are living in the gray because its easier to not take a clear stance. I'm more black and white on this. Either its okay do it all or none of its okay. From keeping snakes as pets, to genetically altering them. Black and white. If taking them out of the wild and putting them in a cage is okay, messing with genes through breeding is okay. If mutating the genes in captivity is bad because its not natural, then keeping them as pets all together is bad because its NOT natural. Everything in between the 2 extremes are just distinctions with out a difference.

Ill say it again, so long as the experimentation isn't for the sole purpose of harming the animal then I'm open.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MootWorm

Thank you! He's so surreal. Almost looks like a sculpture.

---

Moot, we must have the same way of thinking :D. It definately looks unreal....like either its a 3-D watercolor painting or that its made from clay.

sent from my incubator

Without the scales, the colors really pop, so to me in that sense I like it. I can only imagine how soft it feels. Maybe like a gecko? If so, that would be bad @** But.. to play devils advocate here..

Nevermind the possible lack of heat pits.. many snakes lack them and eat fine.

The main need for scales are for protection.. I don't see this snake being protected much from burns, bites and scale rot. Yes, its easy to avoid bites by not feeding live.. its easy to prevent scale rot if you clean often and make sure your snake isn't living in wet conditions..

But even the best herper can have equipment failures. Which can cause temp spikes.

I agree, we do play god with them. What are the chances that in the wild you will see a 3,4,5+ mutation ball? To me tho, playing with pattern and colors isn't unethical. Unethical to me is when you take its sole protection away.

I'm sure who ever gets their hands on these expensive snakes will take amazing care of them. But when they become very popular, the average Joe schmoe won't take as much precaution and care. Heaven forbid a live rat gets left in with one. If it balls up, it'll have no protection. Imagine how fast scale rot could happen if someone doesn't know proper humidity?

I personally don't agree with this morph, its amazing looking tho. But to me its sad for the snake to take its main protection away. So its simple. I just won't have one.

That's all I have to say and will say on this subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crotalids

I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same. Only care about money and not the animals.

Any individual that bred the spider, and released it to the public is an idiot. The moment where that gene showed head wobbles etc, it should've been stopped, there and then. But no, of course, these guys don't care about the animals like I said, they only care about money.

Who knows what problems these scaleless BP's will have, because they 100% won't be telling you, guess you'll have to find out once they're cheap enough for the public to afford.

---

You do know Kevin McCurly founded the spider project not Brian, right?

So if problems come about and Brian shows them publicly, will you come back and admit you were wrong? Assuming the animal can figure out a way to move and eat, what will your take on it be then?

I have a hunch they will not be getting scale rot, just a hunch.

Also I think the average joe argument is a bad one, average joe can do anything to the animal regardless of scales or not.

In addition to the dicussion ill add this: .... imo it doesnt matter if the animal has heat pits, ass long as it can eat a f/t or p/k prey on its own. There are so many other snakes that dont have heat pits and survive quite well. Set that fact aside, Im sure this is just the beginning of Brians project. Since hes proved out the scaleless heads, hes gonna produce more scaless babies. Im sure its gonna be a several year "trial and error" project for him to find out what "works" for those babies. Regardless, Brian is making ball python history. If he can help them survive, and live well, kudos to him. I think its a kewl, very different animal, that is a world apart from all other ball python morphs.

sent from my incubator

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

---

This isn't a moral high horse issue. It's you getting butthurt over a snake that isn't yours, hearing facts that you can't argue, and fishing in the abyss hoping you catch something worth saying. So far you haven't come up with anything other than comments against the opponents, not the opposing view.

Personal jabs and name calling make you look childish. You need to at least have some ground to stand on before you go preaching.


Sent From an Enclosure

I think people are freaking out way too early. Its too early to tell if these scaleless BPs will thrive or not. But im willing to wait and see how it goes. As long as the animal can live a normal life in CAPTIVITY then i have no problem with it. None of the morphs we love were meant to survive in the wild. They were made for people to care for them in captivity. Alot of questions will be answered with time. Im not for scaleless BPs or against them. I am neutral until we get more information about how they do in captivity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

You do know Kevin McCurly founded the spider project not Brian, right?

So if problems come about and Brian shows them publicly, will you come back and admit you were wrong? Assuming the animal can figure out a way to move and eat, what will your take on it be then?

---

I never said Brian founded the spider, I said "Any individual that bred the spider". Couldn't care less who bred it, they are all the same.

I never said these 100% have problems. Your comprehension of English isn't very good is it? I said IF they have problems, they wouldn't tell you. It would lessen the amount of money they will make.

I don't have a problem with all these morphs, i don't like them, I don't understand why people do when there are hundreds of pretty snakes to choose from.

But this is a step in the wrong direction, no scales, no labial pits..what's next? No eyes? 4 heads? 3 tongues? How much longer is this mutilation of an already beautiful animal going to continue?

It seems that one of these guys will be brought to Tinley next weekend, for anyone who will be there. I'm hoping that once more people get to actually see it in person, some of the wild conjecture and fits of moral superiority will subside. I don't think he'd willingly bring it out for tons of people to see in person if he's trying to 'cover up' severe health problems.

Some of the paranoia about TEH BIG EVIL BREEDERZ conspiring with each other to dupe Basement Breeder Joe is a little silly. :rolleyes: It reeks of bitterness and jealousy. But I digress.

So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?

I think the snake looks neat. And I admit that I do want to touch and feel it. It looks rather soft. However, I don't agree with breeding it or for it.

But who am I to tell someone what they can and cannot do. Its not my business. Just like its no ones business to tell me what I should keep and breed. Im not interested in the scaleless, so I won't be paying much attention to them. I simply don't care enough.
I suggest those who aren't a fan to do the same.

If you like the scaleless, good for you. If you don't like the scaleless, good for you too. The most pointless debate since 'is a lesser different from butter'? Not everyone is going to agree. So just settle with agreeing to disagreeing.

The last scaleless BP survived for 7 or so months before dying out of the blue.
Will these guys will last longer....


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2