Desert Female Update

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Originally Posted by wreckroomsnakes

there are two known lines of desert. pk and P.E line. P.E line is much more well known and typically holds it color better as it ages. Pk line tends to brown out

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Gotcha (I do not own a desert so I am not familiar with the lines, I would just assume those who produced them originally would have the rights to the name)....but my question still stands, why would it not be called a PK line or PE line? Regardless if you are the first to produce something, the line/breeding of the animal would not change...? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Gotcha (I do not own a desert so I am not familiar with the lines, I would just assume those who produced them originally would have the rights to the name)....but my question still stands, why would it not be called a PK line or PE line? Regardless if you are the first to produce something, the line/breeding of the animal would not change...? :confusd:

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What happens if two different people import animals at the same time, not knowing that either has it???

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Gotcha (I do not own a desert so I am not familiar with the lines, I would just assume those who produced them originally would have the rights to the name)....but my question still stands, why would it not be called a PK line or PE line? Regardless if you are the first to produce something, the line/breeding of the animal would not change...? :confusd:

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I don't think the OP quoted that this is his own line of anything...I am not sure where you are seeing that he did. :confusd:

I have been following your story very closely. I do not want any part of the trashing or accusing or name calling. BUT just this past Sunday I saw a number of Desert Combos at my local show courtesy of a well known breeder I originally met at Tinley Park. And I have to tell you honestly. Nothing about any of your snakes, from the dam to the babies looks desert to me. Could I be wrong? Of course. But I have to tell you, after seeing in person what a number of different desert combos looks like, these don't have "the look" of a desert.

I don't know how to describe what that means. I can only say that until Sunday, I have only seen single gene deserts in person, and combos in photographs. Having seen combos in person, they do have a definite look to them. It is impossible to mistake them for anything else. And these babies....just don't have that look.

In theory, it could just be because of the dam being a "different" desert. But the combos I saw came from a minimum of 5 different deserts, so I kind of doubt that is the case. If you do breed her to a normal male and get single gene deserts, please do let us all know, because I will gladly apologize for doubting.

Gale

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

What happens if two different people import animals at the same time, not knowing that either has it???

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You cannot import a known line....an import is an unknown line. If you prove out an import then you have the right to call it your own line. At least that is how I have always understood it. You cannot just purchase a snake from someone's line, breed it once and call it your own line. Someone else produced it....or imported and proved it. For example I cannot buy a Joliff Axanthic, breed it and then decide to call it my own line of Axanthics.....

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Originally Posted by joebad976

I don't think the OP quoted that this is his own line of anything...I am not sure where you are seeing that he did. :confusd:

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On the OP's post on BLBC:

"Keeping with my word here's the update. This is from the FIRST and ONLY proven Citrus Pastel Desert female. Proven and named the "Cross Exotics Desert Line"."

I went back and looked at the first post here, I thought it was identical when I read it before....maybe it changed, regardless, that's what the OP is calling it.

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Originally Posted by tikigator

You cannot import a known line....an import is an unknown line. If you prove out an import then you have the right to call it your own line. At least that is how I have always understood it. You cannot just purchase a snake from someone's line, breed it once and call it your own line. Someone else produced it....or imported and proved it. For example I cannot buy a Joliff Axanthic, breed it and then decide to call it my own line of Axanthics.....

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I think he was calling the combo the "Oasis", not referring to his own line of Desert. It was other people talking about this line and that line.

I'll set the record straight gang.. I initially posted on the blbc forums. Yes, I called it Cross Exotics Line, and that is due to it "being a first" with the Desert female reproducing and not being done prior to this from anyone over the years. I retracted the "Oasis" name and left it at that since it was taken (didn't do my home work on that). It was a way of marking a first of an event, even though the Desert lines have been bred to so many combos before this. There is no way to tell which "line" comes from what unless you have spotless records from day one when they were brought in to the country. It was even mentioned that my girl could have been a "Jungle Desert" type new line that emerged from breeding over the years. :O I've had faith in this project, and I've also stood behind everything I've said while being transparent as possible in hopes to further share this information regarding something that is tagged impossible. After all, being excited is boring unless its shared for others to enjoy as well. After reading other opinions and reflecting back, I apologize for being over zealous and calling something my own line without the further proving of generations. Before I posted these pics I even consulted several very well known breeders. After doing so with the information of what was seen in the clutch I posted them. Hence the excitement and claim of said events. I won't disclose these breeders out of respect, and I assure you things will come full circle one way or the other as far as this Desert event goes. This thread was generated for the sole purpose of keeping my word of sharing the information, and not concealing what a lot have wished to happen for a long time. I thank you all for your opinions, thoughts, questions and respect for each other and myself regarding this matter. Feel free to ask or post and I will remain upfront with you all as I have been.

Thank You,
Joe
Cross Exotics

Tiki is correct, he has said he is going to be calling his deserts from this female on a Cross Line Desert...even though it came from Amir, so to me this would still be whatever line, PE/PK that Amir had if she is in fact a desert.

Personally, I still think we haven't seen a desert on eggs yet.

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Originally Posted by rascal_rascal_99

Tiki is correct, he has said he is going to be calling his deserts from this female on a Cross Line Desert...even though it came from Amir, so to me this would still be whatever line, PE/PK that Amir had if she is in fact a desert.

Personally, I still think we haven't seen a desert on eggs yet.

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They are not nor will they be called Cross Line Deserts. PE is the line she came from.

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Originally Posted by Cross Exotics

They are not nor will they be called Cross Line Deserts. PE is the line she came from.

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Thank you :gj:


While I do remain skeptical, I also wish you the best and would love for you to prove me wrong and prove her out as being a desert. Best of luck with your season! :)

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Originally Posted by Cross Exotics

I'll set the record straight gang.. I initially posted on the blbc forums. Yes, I called it Cross Exotics Line, and that is due to it "being a first" with the Desert female reproducing and not being done prior to this from anyone over the years. I retracted the "Oasis" name and left it at that since it was taken (didn't do my home work on that). It was a way of marking a first of an event, even though the Desert lines have been bred to so many combos before this. There is no way to tell which "line" comes from what unless you have spotless records from day one when they were brought in to the country. It was even mentioned that my girl could have been a "Jungle Desert" type new line that emerged from breeding over the years. :O I've had faith in this project, and I've also stood behind everything I've said while being transparent as possible in hopes to further share this information regarding something that is tagged impossible. After all, being excited is boring unless its shared for others to enjoy as well. After reading other opinions and reflecting back, I apologize for being over zealous and calling something my own line without the further proving of generations. Before I posted these pics I even consulted several very well known breeders. After doing so with the information of what was seen in the clutch I posted them. Hence the excitement and claim of said events. I won't disclose these breeders out of respect, and I assure you things will come full circle one way or the other as far as this Desert event goes. This thread was generated for the sole purpose of keeping my word of sharing the information, and not concealing what a lot have wished to happen for a long time. I thank you all for your opinions, thoughts, questions and respect for each other and myself regarding this matter. Feel free to ask or post and I will remain upfront with you all as I have been.

Thank You,
Joe
Cross Exotics

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Can I ask what makes you so convinced that your dam is a desert and you hatched out a clutch of desert combos? I've been made aware my tone doesn't always come across online, so let me say first that I have no desire to antagonize anyone or doubt your sincerity. I'm really just trying to sate curiosity, and I haven't noticed you respond to anyone who thinks your snake is 'just' a fantastic looking citrus pastel. Is it possible Amir made a mistake in selling your dam as a desert? Have you discussed that possibility with him? Have you compared your clutch to any Pro Exotics deserts in person?

You keep mentioning the big breeders you consulted with, but there have been plenty of extremely experienced people who have disagreed with you here and in your previous thread. I know you have faith in your project, which is commendable. But despite their best efforts, not all martyrs see divinity. And now there's a possibility that it is a new morph called jungle desert that came about from 'breeding over the years'? Despite the fact you purchased it as a PE-line desert?

I'm not picking sides or attacking your credibility, but it is irresponsible to make a claim like this without having the evidence, argument, or at least theory to back it up. If you warn people against breeding their female deserts, but you bred an animal believing it to run the same risk anyway, only to find out you were mistaken from the start...when it comes to a project like this, with the potential to crack open the coffin on the desert gene, I just think a little more information would go a long way.

I think OP and a few others just refuse to believe that Amir would wrongly identify a snake.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

I think OP and a few others just refuse to believe that Amir would wrongly identify a snake.

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Mistakes can always be made, it's how you react to them that defines your character.
All interested parties can reach me directly to discuss the matter 786-459-2741

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Originally Posted by amir

Mistakes can always be made, it's how you react to them that defines your character.
All interested parties can reach me directly to discuss the matter 786-459-2741

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Do you think you made one?

I'm not trying to call you out, i'd really just like to hear your opinion on all of it. What makes you think the dam or those babies have desert in them?

I think he meant if you want to know, phone him, lol

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I think he meant if you want to know, phone him, lol

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I'm sure EVERYONE here wants to know though, so why couldn't he just share? Cross Exotics is being transparent, he should too. I feel calling him would come across as being overly aggressive or something lol

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Originally Posted by tikigator

You cannot import a known line....an import is an unknown line. If you prove out an import then you have the right to call it your own line. At least that is how I have always understood it. You cannot just purchase a snake from someone's line, breed it once and call it your own line. Someone else produced it....or imported and proved it. For example I cannot buy a Joliff Axanthic, breed it and then decide to call it my own line of Axanthics.....

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WOW! When it's first imported from the wild in Africa,it is an unknown line!!! Who is calling either of the two imported lines another name???

Now that I think about it, didn't Sam's(I think it's Sam) line get changed to Pro Exotics when they bought his animals ???

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

Now that I think about it, didn't Sam's(I think it's Sam) line get changed to Pro Exotics when they bought his animals ???

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Stan

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by amir

Mistakes can always be made, it's how you react to them that defines your character.
All interested parties can reach me directly to discuss the matter 786-459-2741

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So is the dam a Desert citrus pastel, or was it a mistake?

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Absolutely stunning babies!! :gj:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

So is the dam a Desert citrus pastel, or was it a mistake?

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I think he wants you to call him to find out.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

I think he wants you to call him to find out.

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I understood that, but I'd rather he answer that question here, since we've had months of speculation and even other respected breeders like Justin Kobylka who doesn't believe the babies are desert and Sean Bradley who agreed the dam didn't look desert.

The perceived "secrecy" and unwillingness to respond in public is concerning. I'd rather it come straight from "the horse's mouth" publicly. It is after all how one handles such situations that is important as he said. I believe it's best to be answered here whether he still stands behind the dam being a desert or not.

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

Amir and I have spoken, and he will honor our agreement regarding the Citrus Pastel Desert female as he has said since day one without wavering if indeed she does not prove out. Not even a normal was present in the clutch this season so she will be bred to a normal male to prove her out without a doubt. The clutch is beautiful and I'm happy with the results thus far. Again, I thank you all for your input regarding this matter.

For reading pleasure, good stuff : http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t-jungle-russo

http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...gle-stuff.html

Can i ask why you've been calling it a citrus pastel desert all along if from day one amir let it be known that she may not prove out? If the jury has been out all this time why were you speaking so definitively about her and labeling the babies as deserts? Imo you don't even have to breed her to a normal to prove her out. Shes just a citrus pastel. I know that and called it from the beginning, most of the people on the forum probably know that, amir probably knows that, and even now you probably know that. But we'll just keep playing along...

I wonder how many idiots read your other thread and this one and decided to breed their female deserts, inviting death upon them. Have you thought about that at all?

Still haven't seen an admission of it not being a desert.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Stan

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I hit me on the way home! lol Sorry Stan..... I have a female from his line.

What was the agreement with Amir? Did you already know that it was possibly not a desert when you purchased it?

I don't see the Jungle Desert scenario working in your favor. The Jungle is a separate trait/gene that has been popping up through the years not a new line of desert. At least this is my understanding.\ regarding the "jungle".

You are correct, It originated from a desert pairing to a female at Pro Exotics. While it's not very common they are out there and have a very distinct look.

Any new news?

Here's a Lil update. 6-22-14 she laid 5 viable eggs. Count down begins.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/qetura2e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/9ebynebu.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/garume3e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/buhunuje.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/3uhepunu.jpg

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Paired with??

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

Paired with??

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Pied, Het Pied and Enchi only. Most locks were from the Het Pied. Btw, how ya doing Corey? ;-)

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Like I said day one wayyyy back in the thread that got locked, I still think amir made a mistake. But what do I know?

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I want to see updated pictures of the last clutch. They hatched then no more updates....

The babies from last year didn't look like they contained the desert gene to me. However, in my opinion the dam does look desert.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Cross Exotics

Pied, Het Pied and Enchi only. Most locks were from the Het Pied. Btw, how ya doing Corey? ;-)

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Should have just stuck with a normal male like you said you were...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Should have just stuck with a normal male like you said you were...

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+1 yep, agreed.


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Does anyone have updated photos of the babies? That more than anything else would go a LONG way towards answering the questions still surrounding this whole thing. While the female is magnificent, I still have my doubts.

Call me pragmatic, argumentative, skeptical, whatever you choose, I still have my doubts.

Gale

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Originally Posted by sho220

Should have just stuck with a normal male like you said you were...

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With the Pied and Het Pied, it serves as a normal, but a bonus with the recessive gene, and I think we all know what a Tiger looks like. I'll post some updated pics later on.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Does anyone have updated photos of the babies? That more than anything else would go a LONG way towards answering the questions still surrounding this whole thing. While the female is magnificent, I still have my doubts.

Call me pragmatic, argumentative, skeptical, whatever you choose, I still have my doubts.

Gale

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Looks like there's some updated stuff posted here http://crossexotics.com/?page_id=54

Some good looking snakes!

Would be nice to get some insight from the breeder.

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Originally Posted by oskyle1567

Would be nice to get some insight from the breeder.

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What would you like to know? :-)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/27/enyje6ym.jpg

Here's a group shot. Other is in shed. All are approximately 575g ±

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/27/4usarajy.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/27/ryza6ega.jpg

Couple single shots.

Some great lookin animals no matter what is going on


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I agree at this point, in order to maintain the integrity of the situation, a 100% normal male should have been used in order to determine with certainty what the dam truly is.

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Originally Posted by Cross Exotics

Here's a group shot. Other is in shed. All are approximately 575g ±

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Is your website down? I was trying to check out those other pics you had posted there to see how they're all progressing along but I keep getting a DNS error, whatever that is...

Interesting to see how they've grown. Whatever is going on, it's sure keeping the colors crisp and bright..

The website is down at the moment in between moving servers due to security and trying to make a more user friendly interface. As soon as that's backup I'll pop the link up.