WARNING for Florida herpers!

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

We can't own them unless we have a conditional reptile permit, and then it's not for "personal pet" but only as "Reptile dealers, public exhibitors, researchers and nuisance trappers". So if you want to be a dealer, or exhibitor (this can be a nice loop hole for those not wanting to be a dealer), you have to apply for the permit/license.

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Good to know....What do they define "exhibitor" as???

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Originally Posted by helmethead

I'll know how bad it's really going to be once I get to court... :(

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I worry about the remaining fallout due to the Rock Python fiasco a few months ago...hopefully the judge doesn't like Kool-Aid:rolleyes:

Weapons drawn for a citation? It sounds like an over zealous ticket writer to me. From what I understand, you do need a permit for BP sales in FL. However, weapons pulled to write the ticket is ridiculous.

someone was behind on his quota I guess

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

someone was behind on his quota I guess

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Quotas are actually illegal now-a-days. They have what's called "contacts." Officers must make "x" amount of traffic stops and contacts with civilians rather than write "x" amount of tickets.

Keeps them from having an obligation to write erroneous tickets.


Sent From an Enclosure

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Originally Posted by Expensive hobby

Quotas are actually illegal now-a-days. They have what's called "contacts." Officers must make "x" amount of traffic stops and contacts with civilians rather than write "x" amount of tickets.

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http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.48640...12625&pid=15.1

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

FWC:
Here is that list:

The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

• Button quail
• Canaries
• Chinchillas
• Cockatiels
• Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
• Ferrets (domestic; European)
• Finches
• Gerbils, hedgehogs
• Guinea pigs
• Hamsters
• Honey possums, sugar gliders
• Lovebirds
• Moles; shrews
• Myna birds
• Parrots
• Prairie dogs
• Rabbits
• Rats and mice
• Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
• Shell parakeets
• Squirrels; chipmunks
• Toucans

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According to this you do not need a permit. It stated that:

"reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern"

And in that list it does not have ball python listed. I would fight that and tell FWC that they need to learn what animals are acceptable and what are not by the laws that they are to protect.

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Originally Posted by mattb

According to this you do not need a permit. It stated that:

"reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern"

And in that list it does not have ball python listed. I would fight that and tell FWC that they need to learn what animals are acceptable and what are not by the laws that they are to protect.

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He got busted because he was SELLING. Which if you look at my post, notes you do need a permit for. This list was to show the other person stating that you had to have one to just own a bp was untrue.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

He got busted because he was SELLING. Which if you look at my post, notes you do need a permit for. This list was to show the other person stating that you had to have one to just own a bp was untrue.

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I understand that. Their definition of class 3 is the same if you just possess it or sell them. By their definition Ball Pythons are not listed under the class 3 animals. So with that being said if they are not under that classification then no permit is required to by or see them.

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Originally Posted by mattb

I understand that. Their definition of class 3 is the same if you just possess it or sell them. By their definition Ball Pythons are not listed under the class 3 animals. So with that being said if they are not under that classification then no permit is required to by or see them.

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No...not quite.

They state you need a permit to possess/sell/exhibit class 3. Class 3 is all animals not listed in 1 or 2, or on the "able to be POSSESSED short list".

If the list was "Able to be possessed and sold and exhibited" then your point would be valid. Because the law/list states that that list only exempts those animals from permit for possession, he still (and everyone) has to have a permit to sell them.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

He got busted because he was SELLING. Which if you look at my post, notes you do need a permit for. This list was to show the other person stating that you had to have one to just own a bp was untrue.

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I think what people are tripping over is that there are two permits you can get. The first is the personal possession permit, and that is the one ball pythons are exempt for. When you look at the FWC site where it lists the Class III exempt animals, it says (in bold) the list is only valid for the personal possession license. There is not an exemption list for the Class III exhibition and sale license. So if you are selling any Class III animals in FL you are supposed to have your exhibition and sales paperwork.

This is nothing new.....FWC has been trolling Craigslist for a few years now busting people selling reptiles without a Class III permit. I have been in the hobby 4 years now and have been aware of this since day 1.

There is enough negative news in our hobby as it is so if you plan to sell reptiles in any state please make sure you research your state laws and obtain the appropriate licensing as needed.

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Originally Posted by aalomon

I think what people are tripping over is that there are two permits you can get. The first is the personal possession permit, and that is the one ball pythons are exempt for. When you look at the FWC site where it lists the Class III exempt animals, it says (in bold) the list is only valid for the personal possession license. There is not an exemption list for the Class III exhibition and sale license. So if you are selling any Class III animals in FL you are supposed to have your exhibition and sales paperwork.

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This ^^^^^^^


Yes. Thank you. I couldn't seem to get that across as eloquently. :P

Florida has had these laws for a long time. It's not unheard of for FWC to monitor Craigslist or the reptile groups that are on Facebook and they also go to shows to stop people from "illegally" trading or selling there.

There are three different types of permits in Florida in regards to reptiles.

Conditional Species Permit. This applies to burms, retics, rocks, croc monitors, ect.... From my understanding this permit comes with a lot of stipulations in regards to caging, microchip ping, and transportation requirements. It varies from officer to officer however they mostly give permits to only those who use them for education.

Class III license is to sell, trade or display animals. Technically you cannot take your snake out and about without this license in public. You cannot rehome, sell or trade without this license. If you are caught having your snake in public without the license they can take your animal from you.

Then there is a license to just own them. It's free and I'm not quite sure of the point. I think it's to keep track of who has what honestly however I'm not sure.

Also if the police come to your house and you have a large snake they are required to call FWC for them to check it out.

The best thing you can do is just pay the ticket and do it there way. If you lie you will just make life harder on yourself. If you post in a group where it's often said you need those licenses it will be presented in court. I've never heard of FWC just showing up for a small town backyard meet up. Either the guy set you up, they have been watching you for awhile, or the details of the set up were posted in a forum or a place where others can see it.

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Originally Posted by mattb

And in that list it does not have ball python listed. I would fight that and tell FWC that they need to learn what animals are acceptable and what are not by the laws that they are to protect.

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I'm guessing you've never dealt with FWC. You might also want to stop giving advice in areas where you know so little when the consequences can be significant.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm guessing you've never dealt with FWC. You might also want to stop giving advice in areas where you know so little when the consequences can be significant.

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Before you just jump down on me. Am I not able to give my on thoughts on a subject?? Where did I ever say "My advice to you would be to fight it"?? So when you want to go and jump on someone you may want to take a step back.

All I was doing was going off the info that I saw and stating my thoughts on the matter like everyone else. But maybe I am not entitled to my on thoughts.

Again I would like you to point out were I said "My advice..."

Edit: You know I have no problems with people pointing out if I miss read something, and I guess I did because I didn't see anything on their site. I just have a problem with people jumping other people just for stating what they think.

As already mentioned I had gone to the FWC website to check if I needed some sort of permit and as stated by numerous others,
it's rather confusing. Maybe I should have looked deeper or asked on this very forum way back when I first joined or searched this
or other forums on this matter. Someone said the subject has popped up here over the years but sadly I've never come across it.

I'm sure they scope out sights like Craig's List all the time, hell just the other day(April actually) I punched in 420 to see what would
pop up and WOW. I thought, well there are a bunch of dumb criminals out there or the popo think the criminals are that dumb.

But to set up a sting for selling a ball python? REALLY! I thought they had more important things to do with our tax dollars.
Oh well, you live, you learn. :oops:

I think I'm going to need a lawyer just to fill out the application,
have you really looked at it? What if you don't have or want a business name?
I only have a few snakes. This should be fun :reading:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2550ri0.png

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Originally Posted by helmethead

What if you don't have or want a business name?

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N/A should cover that, unless it's required information...

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Originally Posted by sho220

N/A should cover that, unless it's required information...

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Ok, now I'm just over thinking all of this. :confusd:

yea, they make you have a critical disaster plan to....

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Originally Posted by helmethead

I think I'm going to need a lawyer just to fill out the application,
have you really looked at it? What if you don't have or want a business name?
I only have a few snakes. This should be fun :reading:
http://i39.tinypic.com/2550ri0.png

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Originally Posted by ATTFighter

yea, they make you have a critical disaster plan to....

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That's probably the only thing about the whole subject I don't see any controversy in, especially in Florida. Although we should all have some kind of plan in place regardless of geographic location. If you have a hurricane (or earthquake, or tornado, or blizzard etc) and are going to be without power for several days, do you have a generator? Can you run your heating elements off that generator? If you have a sudden evacuation notice are you prepared to move your one (or 100) animals out of harms way?

OP: I'm sorry this happened to you, I hope you have a sympathetic judge, but I'm glad we were at least able to learn something from this. The debate on the preceding pages certainly indicates some level of confusion about the content and application of the laws in Florida. Best of luck and please keep us updated.

What I was referring to is, what kind of critical disaster plan are you supposed to come up with if you own just one ball python as a pet in ur home

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

Something along the lines of 'in the event of a hurricane evacuation Blinky will be enclosed in an industry standard cloth shipping bag. The bag will be placed inside a ventilated locking plastic container as a second barrier against escape, and Blinky will be evacuated with his owner to a safe zone.' Or some other variation of pillowcase goes in tub goes in car.

What they're looking for is some kind of statement of reponsibility, so that if everything goes wrong, they've at least been seen to have done something to try to prevent it/cover themselves. "Hey the widlife dept did their job, Blinky's owner didn't follow the plan."

You actually have to submit this action protocol to the authorities for review or something??

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Originally Posted by ATTFighter

What I was referring to is, what kind of critical disaster plan are you supposed to come up with if you own just one ball python as a pet in ur home

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 4

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If you have a pet BP you are not required to have a Class 3 permit. If you decide to sell that same pet BP then you will need to have the Class 3. It isn't terribly clear if a permit is required if you gift the snake to someone though.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

It isn't terribly clear if a permit is required if you gift the snake to someone though.

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How about trades? No money changes hands and even though a few here have mentioned it, I didn't read anywhere on their site that
trades/barter, with no money involved, requires a permit. In this industry there are LOTS of trades going on, in person and threw shipping.
Now I'm wondering about those, looking to cover all the bases.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

You actually have to submit this action protocol to the authorities for review or something??

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You have to keep your disaster plan on hand at your facility. Also, if a FWC officer comes for inspection, they can ask to see the plan and you need to provide it.


As far as "gifting" you can do so without a permit. The whole "barter" thing though is a gray area. I've heard of shops that do it, and some that absolutely will not because they don't want to give FWC any leverage for investigation/charges/fines etc.

I can't win for losing!?

They sound like a bunch of bullies to me.
These guys are so gun happy, you're lucky you didn't end up a victim.

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

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Originally Posted by qegalpal

They sound like a bunch of bullies to me.
These guys are so gun happy, you're lucky you didn't end up a victim.

http://www.drugwarrant.com/articles/drug-war-victim/

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Good reading! Alot of fools out there!

You know what's even more pathetic about these bullies,
helmethead is my SISTER-in-law, all 5'4" 120 pounds of her.

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Originally Posted by martin82531

http://myfwc.com/license/captive-wildlife/

Just a quick read I don't think this permit applies to Ball Pythons.


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It shouldn't. Ball pythons are not wild animals in the U.S., they are African.
There is a similar law here in Arkansas but it only covers animals that occur naturally in this state. I think you got screwed.

Personal possession vs. exhibition and selling are completely different and separated in the permit requirements clearly. You may possess a BP without a Class III permit. Once you want to exhibit or sell one its a new ballgame.

FWC frequents Craigslist and busts a lot of people down here in FL. My local shop sells 75 gallon tanks to the FWC for snakes they confiscate from these deals.


This is nothing new in FL if you are buying or selling. Personal possession of a ball python purchased from a licensed Class III dealer does not require a permit. Selling and exhibition is where you fall into Class III requirements.

The FWC frequents Craigslist down here, so sellers beware if you do not have a permit. My local shop has sold 75 gallon tanks to the FWC for confiscated BP's from sellers without Class III permits they bust on CL. I have had incoming shipments opened by the FWC and resealed with tape indicating my package was opened and inspected by the FWC. Thankfully the shippers paperwork and packaging were in order.

Here is what gets the Class III permit requirement for ball pythons in FL for selling:

"E. Class III Wildlife

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species. Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife."

You could assume that Non-venomous reptiles listed in the "do not require a permit" section includes BP's, but it does not specifically say Python Regius.

Spend the $50 and be done with the red tape and confusion ;)

I'm with coeydelong, CYA.

I have had the permit for the last few years. It's a lot of paperwork at first, but the renewal permit for $50.00 goes a little easier. I don't know if anyone has mentioned the permit is only good for one year.

I started bring it with me when I sell my snakes...just in case.

Is this for real?? Ball Pythons are sooo docile and sold in pet stores here in Indiana, I would be pretty mad that they "drew their guns". That to me is excessive force. :mad: