Big News Coming Tomorrow!

Do you have any other pics of that female, like when she was younger? I feel like a citrus pastel desert would be a lot brighter than that. Shooting from the hip, i'm gunna say it doesn't look like the desert gene is in that snake, and that's why she laid a viable clutch... This isn't something to joke around about either, not that anyone has been, because if that snake really doesn't carry the desert gene then people need to know. Otherwise you'll have everyone and their brother attempting to breed desert females and then killing their snakes.

Just my take on it, please don't take offense.

Yea, i'm really questioning it... The pastel desert on this page looks different than your female. A lot more blushing:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/qyqyzena.jpg
http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

I think you just have a citrus pastel, no desert.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Someone posted this video the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ
I wonder if it's like what they're theorizing, when you throw enough genes in there you override the effects of the genes (like in their case lethal combos). In this case fertility issues. Or maybe she's just a fluke fertile female. It'll be interesting to see what the babies turn out like, and then if those desert females will be fertile too.

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It's definitely possible, most male calico cats are sterile but you will find some that are viable breeders. Same with mules, they are supposed to be sterile but some are breedable. It's like Jurassic Park, nature always finds a way.

This is definitely interesting! Also, I wasn't aware that female deserts were dying when bred. If that's true, that's nuts.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Do you have any other pics of that female, like when she was younger? I feel like a citrus pastel desert would be a lot brighter than that. Shooting from the hip, i'm gunna say it doesn't look like the desert gene is in that snake, and that's why she laid a viable clutch... This isn't something to joke around about either, not that anyone has been, because if that snake really doesn't carry the desert gene then people need to know. Otherwise you'll have everyone and their brother attempting to breed desert females and then killing their snakes.

Just my take on it, please don't take offense.

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Looks like a Desert pastel to me. my 2 cents anyways.

Subbing for updates!

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Yea, i'm really questioning it... The pastel desert on this page looks different than your female. A lot more blushing:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/qyqyzena.jpg
http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

I think you just have a citrus pastel, no desert.

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This is a pic of the same snake from another thread.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/uqavu2ev.jpg

I think the photo of the snake on eggs wasn't really taken with the greatest care due to eggcitment. Lol. And if the snake came from Amir (like it sounds to me) I would say, I would trust his judgement on if the desert in there. Just my .02

That looks desert to me. Now the waiting eh?
:gj:

This is interesting

Subbing for updates

wow, getting more interesting...

For now, i'm still gunna go against the grain and say thats just a citrus pastel. Can't wait to see if any babies look like deserts though. Its a dominant gene so each egg has a 50% chance of getting the gene, correct?

I could be wrong though, considering i'd be arguing with a veteran breeder like amir, and what do i know lol. :rolleyes:

Been waiting for some thing like this to happen for the gene. Don't you be BS'n poster ;)

That pic looks awfully legit to me! :$)

I'm gonna have to agree with Mike. I don't see the Desert. I'm also kind of saddened by how this will impact the Desert market and probably result in the deaths of many more female Deserts as people try to replicate your results. Every glimmer of hope starts this ball rolling again. Maybe that's not a bad thing if this really is the time it works out, but I don't have high expectations given how this has gone in the past.

That aside, major congrats if you really are the first person to have a female Desert capable of breeding! Only time will tell how the clutch goes, right? I hope no matter what genes are at play, your babies are all healthy :)

I know this has been a touchy situation regarding the viable breeding of the female Deserts and I tell you this is not a joke or a funny in any way. I would not toss Amir's name into the wind at the sake of making some excitement due to the respect I have for him and what he does. That being said when I bought her I actually brought her back to him the next day, and he was willing to take her back due to my concerns. However, my son begged me not to return her and so i listened to his plea. That moment is what brought this moment to pass. When pairing began she was nearly 1600g and eating well. I initially paired her with my Pastel Calico first with scheduled pairing, and then I paired my Mystic. She went off feed and displayed signs of ovulation and later she shed. However, it was nearly a month and a half before she laid post ovulation shed. The pairings were with the Mystic and Pastel Calico in the pics within my previous thread. Enjoy, and ask away. I will be transparent as possible so all can benefit from this event.

Her house when I bought her.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...706_202925.jpg

The receipt..

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...705_233016.jpg

The Lock (w/ Pastel Calico) Mystic wasn't observed, but he's proven.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u.../IMG_2352.jpeg

Candled ....
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...705_232630.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...705_232617.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...705_232606.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...705_232559.jpg

I have a video of taking her off the eggs, but would need a little assistance for loading it.

Thanks, Joe

Do you have any baby pics/juvenile pics of her?

Subbbbbbed keep ys updated

while i'm not seeing the desert really either, i've never worked with desert and i trust amirs eyes more than mine. but if desert females do pop out you better hold them back and prove them out yourself. if they all prove viable this is gonna be a game changer.

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Originally Posted by Witchbane

Waiting for reply from Amir. If he doesn't get back with me by later in the day then I'll drop the bomb. :O

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Please let me know!!!!!!!!! This is completely unfair to make us wait.... but I will!!!!!!!!!:)

Are we going to assume the possibility that it was just a REALLY REALLY bad example of desert? That it was just an absolute piss poor citrus pastel that makes it so dark?

I don't see the desert either, but I'll reserve judgement till those eggs hatch. Be spot on with your incubating, this will be revolutionary if it really desert.

The Pastel Calico she is locked with in the picture.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...IMG_1884-2.jpg

Her younger days as requested..

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...IMG_1987-1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...c/IMG_1988.jpg

Hmmmm.

I see more brightness, and that brownout line points towards a low quality pastel to me. :oops:

Ah I wish you had a DSLR camera or were close by so I could take pics for you with mine. I don't think the light is helping and they're somewhat blurry.

Pastel isn't the gene in question and I trust Amir and his reputation for what I bought from him. I'll keep all updated on the incubation and outcome following. Thank you for the replies and questions. ZZzzzzz.... :D

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

Ah I wish you had a DSLR camera or were close by so I could take pics for you with mine. I don't think the light is helping and they're somewhat blurry.

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Yeah, at that time I didn't own one. I have one now and will use it for sure. Cell phone pics are blah, lol :P

Joseph,
Congrats on the clutch
I remember the animal you bought and it was one of 1.3 Citrus Deserts produced from a Desert male to a Super Citrus/Pastel female
There are 2 other girls out there so hopefully someone else can back your results in the near future.
I looked for baby pics and this one is all I could find of a sib
http://photos.imageevent.com/ballpyt...ment.aspx.jpeg
People should and will have to wait till next season to breed Deserts and by then all of these questions will be answered.
If it is of any importance, I do have 8.22 adult Deserts and Desert combos so you may not be the only one looking for answers.

I think this is amazing! It's certainly going to be a long two months. This is a real cliff hanger, I can't wait to see what happens next.

This could be huge news.
And, people thought waiting a day was bad. Now there will be a wait for any females exhibiting the Desert characteristics to mature and breed. And, hopefully remain healthy and have successful clutches.
I am really unconcerned as to whether or not this is exactly the same gene as the known Desert morph or morph that looks enough like a Desert to fool Amir. I just hope it isn't a fluke female and turns our to be a reproducible Desert or Desert-like morph.
And, that is provided the odds-gods play nice and there are female hatchlings with the gene.

I think folks need to calm down.

When we see Desert babies crawl out of the eggs, that will be something. Honestly, I prolly would have waited till there were babies and had perfect documentation in place before making this hyped up announcement.

With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved. There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success. Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.

I agree if that female is Citrus Desert, she is not the best looking example, so that def casts doubt on top of all this.

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

I think folks need to calm down.

When we see Desert babies crawl out of the eggs, that will be something. Honestly, I prolly would have waited till there were babies and had perfect documentation in place before making this hyped up announcement.

With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved. There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success. Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.

I agree if that female is Citrus Desert, she is not the best looking example, so that def casts doubt on top of all this.

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I agree 100%. When baby deserts start crawling outta those eggs I will be more satisfied but there is still a lot of bad history with this morph and I am not holding my breath.

I personally feel like she's just a very high quality pastel but let's wait and see, I'm no one to doubt Amir, just what she looks like to me.

I mainly just fear that this could lead to a LOT of people trying to breed their female deserts and desert combos and a lot of deaths. Even if she IS desert, it doesn't mean the others will magically be capable of being bred, she could be a fluke. So many ppl will try to breed a snake, but won't spend the money on a vet and surgery if things go wrong. :(

To the OP: Honestly, no offense, but I really feel it was a bit irresponsible to try and breed her in the first place. Not trying to be an ass here, but that's an animal's life you risked. Just because it worked doesn't mean it wasn't a risk. I REALLY hope you had a GOOD vet on standby and were willing to drop the huge amounts of money on any necessary surgery.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Royal Hijinx

With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved. There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success. Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.

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i do agree with this.. if this actually IS a desert female.. i would not have even announced this until i had raised the female offspring up and they produced viable clutches.. and when they did, i'd be rich.. any other way and you could just be putting thousands of desert females in danger. that way it would work out for both you and the animals.

First, congrats! This looks like it could be very exciting news! I figured I would chime in since many people have asked for my thoughts on this female. First, Amir has a great eye and has been doing this for a long time. This female was produced from a super citrus, which means the base for pastel vs pastel desert should have been even that much more distinguishable. I see her as a pastel desert, and would have sold her as one just as Amir did.

The only hint of doubt for me at this moment was the fact this may be a citrus pastel that didn't take on its genetic appearance and perhaps had a developmental issue that gave her more pronounced color and contrast. However, I'm not really seeing incubation effect with her in any extreme fashion and I personally think she is simply a pastel desert.

Those who say she doesn't look bright enough, if you've seen adult deserts, they really aren't nearly as bright or striking as they are as babies...

I believe this female is a pastel desert. Now, whether or not the eggs go full term, I don't know. We also need to see a desert come out of these eggs... I'm plugged in, and very excited to see this outcome.

Great job by the OP documenting this properly. I believe it is the owners discretion whether or not you choose to breed your female deserts. If you believe it's unethical, I respect your argument. However, we have to remember the very little time frame these deserts have really been bred in captivity (albeit with bad results), but only account for a few generations of breedings. I think if people wish to pursue their time, money, and energy to breed them I have no problem with it. These animals would breed naturally in the wild, and I can assure you none would raise their hands to declare themselves as non-breedable pets.

Many snake species have had captive breeding problems that took many years to figure out, and even breed out.. This OP paid his money for this snake, so obviously he cares about the safety and well being of the animal. Personally, I'm very excited for him and good luck!! Keep us posted!

One snake dropping a clutch, if it's a desert which I'm kind of skeptical of, doesn't change the grande scheme of things.

Carry on ...

Looks like one to me? Either way grats on the eggs. I hope it is a desert pastel!! How big was she?

I am torn about this thread. The desert gene is incredibly beautiful, and to see females able to breed without complications would be an amazing turn of events.

However, like some have mentioned already, I am worried about all of the desert females that will perish as a result of many people rushing to unlock the gene. It is bitter sweet really. On one hand, there may be hope, but on the other hand there have been many deaths and many still to come.

I understand wanting to "unlock" the gene for scientific satisfaction. But in doing so, many animals have and will lose lives.

With that being said, I don't work with this gene, and can't say one way or another wether or not I see desert in that female. She sure is pretty, and her pattern and clean saddles look desert like to me. Plus, with Both Amir & Major League chiming in, I believe what they say. SO, if this IS a desert gene sitting on eggs, congrats by all means. BUT, I'd keep EVERYTHING back, or at least the girls like others have said as well and see if they produce safely, and if so, I'd do it again another year just to be sure, annnnnddddd then it *might* be safe to say you've stumbled on a safe line of the desert gene.

Congrats and good luck :)

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

These animals would breed naturally in the wild

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And after a few shot attempts, assuming everything we've documented so far besides this clutch with Deserts is representative of the morph and its problems, those members of the species carrying this gene would die out and it would disappear from the pool. Natural Selection is quite good at taking care of "problems" like infertility. Don't get me wrong, I'll be excited for combo possibilities if we prove Desert females to be viable in some way, but it rubs me the wrong way that anyone is still putting the life of their pet on the line to try to prove it out. Yes, it's your pet to do with as you like, for the most part, but if I put the life of my dogs at risk in a similar manner to make puppies, I'd get investigated and probably shut down by the SPCA or the Humane Association, and rightly so. If this really is it, and for OP's sake I hope it is, then great, but the odds are more like that it's not, or that it's a non-repeatable fluke.

So do I win a baby for guessing correctly? :D

(Just kidding, unless you actually want to send me one, in which case I'll pay for shipping ;))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaintTawny

Natural Selection is quite good at taking care of "problems" like infertility.

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Of course. Natural selection would probably take care of just about every morph we own in the wild.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaintTawny

it rubs me the wrong way that anyone is still putting the life of their pet on the line to try to prove it out. Yes, it's your pet to do with as you like, for the most part, but if I put the life of my dogs at risk in a similar manner to make puppies, I'd get investigated and probably shut down by the SPCA or the Humane Association, and rightly so. If this really is it, and for OP's sake I hope it is, then great, but the odds are more like that it's not, or that it's a non-repeatable fluke.

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I own an English Bulldog, a breed that is still bred despite many problems.

Again, I understand the dilemma here with people breeding females deserts if this happens to be viable...

I'll be honest, if deserts pop out of these eggs, I won't be running to buy and breed desert females myself. I'd be more inclined to sit back and see if the offspring were viable, and if this female could do it again next year, etc... Maybe make a super desert, and then if this line proved successful, I'd then consider getting back into it. That is just my own take at the moment, however as an enthusiast, I really am excited.

My .2 cents worth. Being new and one whos still learning all the aspects in the breeding world I find it very sad to see so many negative opinions pop up so fast on this project. I hope that the OP can prove this out and that the desert project is one step closer to viable. One thing about science or projects of any kind is keeping an open and optimistic mind set. Forming such a firm "its impossible" conclusion from a single bad picture is very disappointing. I wish the best of luck to the OP and hope to see many future updates when these hatch out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seth702

My .2 cents worth. Being new and one whos still learning all the aspects in the breeding world I find it very sad to see so many negative opinions pop up so fast on this project. I hope that the OP can prove this out and that the desert project is one step closer to viable. One thing about science or projects of any kind is keeping an open and optimistic mind set. Forming such a firm "its impossible" conclusion from a single bad picture is very disappointing. I wish the best of luck to the OP and hope to see many future updates when these hatch out.

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The negative opinions are based on what many people have already tried to do with the desert females. So many have died from becoming egg bound, eggs aren't vital, and more issues.

Of course people are going to be skeptical and I'm disappointed they didn't just keep this to themselves until the eggs actually hatched.

So many people are going to try to breed their desert females now and many are going to die!

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

The negative opinions are based on what many people have already tried to do with the desert females. So many have died from becoming egg bound, eggs aren't vital, and more issues.

Of course people are going to be skeptical and I'm disappointed they didn't just keep this to themselves until the eggs actually hatched.

So many people are going to try to breed their desert females now and many are going to die!

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The issue regards deaths with Desert females is blown totaly out of context..It is crap...How many females have died due to being egg bound? a handful!, The facts are their is no evidence to support a link between any of the females that have died ..The main issue with Desert females is their apparent inability to produce fertile eggs, the vast majority have simply slugged out...a far cry from the scare mongering brigade that dictate that female deserts will die if bred.
I have been waiting for a fertile clutch to be produced, their are many morphs with issues, apparent infertility issues etc that have gone on to produce.

Please can you provide the figures on how many females have actually died due to breeding?...comments like the above, "so many people are going to breed their desert females now and many are going to die" is complete garbagge..But Hey ho!

It will be interesting to see the results of the clutch

Yes, female deserts can die quite easily due to becoming eggbound, which seems quite common in this morph.

I can't give you an exact number as those who worked with the desert gene usually kept pretty hush hush.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/showth...tion-egg-bound
http://radioactivereptiles.blogspot....roven.html?m=1
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=333250&page=2
http://www.captivebredreptileforums....rt-female.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

Yes, female deserts can die quite easily due to becoming eggbound, which seems quite common in this morph.

I can't give you an exact number as those who worked with the desert gene usually kept pretty hush hush.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/showth...tion-egg-bound
http://radioactivereptiles.blogspot....roven.html?m=1
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=333250&page=2
http://www.captivebredreptileforums....rt-female.html

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Thanks for the links, I have read every thread out there regards the issue, one female was found to have strictures which were found due to the keeper undertaking a ceasarian on his egg bound female..just the one but suddenly all females had strictures, their have only been a handful of females reported to have died due to being egg bound, no link has been proven to date that any of these females deaths were linked in any way to the one female that had strictures..if I am correct, one of the eggs in the female was a fully formed egg & not a infertile slug.

From the onset I have allways kept an open mind on the subject, away from the forums I have spoken to a number of breeders that feel the same.

I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/8y6egy6e.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/beta4uze.jpg

Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/8y6egy6e.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/beta4uze.jpg

Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.

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I realize you are just giving your 2 cents, so here are mine. Amir, who for one thing actually produced this snake, sees wayyy more snakes than you says this is a citrus pastel desert. Also Brant from Major League Reptiles sees literally hundreds of imports per year and has a vast collection of his own, says that this snake has desert. At least for me, that's enough proof that this snake is what it is claimed to be.

For me, there are still a few questions. One being, does this particular snake not have whatever problem the other desert females have? Second, the babies from this snake, will the females inherit this breedable behaviour? Or is the citrus pastel changing the deserts insides, allowing the snake to produce?

I really don't understand playing devils advocate in this situation. This could be the biggest news to come into the ball world in a long time. Why knock the Op? Also one of the most well known breeders (Amir) has his name and reputation on the line here. I realize that there will always be doubters, but why? How many deserts have you seen? How many pastels have you seen? How many pastel deserts have you seen? Also you are comparing pics which aren't always decisive. You would need to see this snake in person to get a more educated opinion. Amir and the Op have seen the snake. Lets just all wait patiently for these eggs to come out. Then we will have some answers and probly more questions.

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Originally Posted by interloc

I really don't understand playing devils advocate in this situation.

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You must remember,many people like seeing others get beat down. They thrive on playing "devils assvocate"!

I think this is very interesting and will just take a wait and see stance. I am still just a rookie in the BP world but I myself would not have attempted to breed anything with the desert gene in it just because of what has been published on the subject. It is the OP's prerogotive to do as they wish with thier snakes, but choosing to do so, seems to walk the line between bold and foolhardy. Congrats if they have accomplished what others haven't.

I wonder if this line of desert is just different like the variations on Ghost. Just my $0.02

Congrats and I wish all the best to the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/8y6egy6e.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/07/beta4uze.jpg

Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.

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Mike,

I'm not trying to be an ass about this either but your post compelled me to reply. In your post you stated "to my untrained eye" I agree on this matter your eye is quite untrained. The animal posted is a Desert. I have owned and bred Deserts and Desert Combos (males) for many many years. Probably as long as Amir! I have a select few Desert combo females that I have kept back to raise slowly, observe AND BREED. I also own Citrus Pastel, Super and Cirturs Yellowbelly animals and none of them would look as crisp and bright as this female in question. I don't know "Cross Exotics" but I am trusting that they have represented themselves honestly here. The neonate photo that you posted above in comparison to the one of the Citrus Pastel (a poorly overcolored photo which looks like it was taken at a reptile show with low K, HPS lights from an overhead warehouse lamp interfering) shows the animals to have very different patterns. Let me try to explain... Notice the head on the Desert in question. The center is an even tone of purple with no really obvious patterning. The non-desert animal would have more of a visible pattern or at least not so even of a tone. Also the cleanliness of the pattern on the Desert with less "keyhole" alien eye stuff going on and a more crisp definition of lines.

On the funny side, we are all artists (an unconventional form of art but artists nonetheless) and sometimes I feel like a painter trying to explain art to someone. Maybe what our TRAINED eyes see is just something that comes from years of understanding our canvas. Please don't label something based on your untrained opinion. Amir is a reputable professional and I really must side with the OP here.

Congrats Cross Exotics! You've given me a glimmer of hope!

Well I say "untrained eye" because i'm not familiar with the desert morph. I'm not a TOTAL noob though, so i think completely disregarding my opinion and saying that i'm wrong just bc Amir and Brant say so is kinda unfair.

I'm willing to bet a $50 donation to BP.net that no desert babies come out of that clutch. Any desert babies hatch and i'll have Judy comment here to confirm I made the donation. I already said I respect all these veterans opinions, so I think you should respect mine too. I'm not saying the snake IS NOT a desert citrus pastel 100% (maybe i didnt make that clear), I'm just saying I don't see it and am willing to bet it isn't.

No harm no foul, we're all just sharing our opinions... :gj: