Who says they don't appreciate height?!

I don't think we can ever determine exactly WHY a ball python might feel the need to climb, but we don't need to go into nature in order to observe the behavior. Ball pythons will climb. Mostly babies and juvies because they are lighter, thinner, and just better suited for climbing.

We also can't say that ball pythons LIKE to climb. Perhaps they are really just looking for food. Perhaps they are trying to get off the wet rainforest floor. Perhaps they are trying to escape the heat. A very in depth study would have to be done to determine this.

I think we can all agree that most smaller ball pythons, given the opportunity, will climb to some extent for reasons unknown!

Does this mean we need to offer all ball pythons climbing branches? No not really, since they seem to be perfectly fine just exploring horizontally. There isn't some crazy mass captive death of ball pythons because keepers aren't giving them enough room to climb. It is simply not the case.

Want to have a branch in your enclosure? Sure! Go for it! Your snake may or may not use it, but if it makes you feel better, use the branch. It will not harm the animal.

I'll be honest, most of my info comes from farmland/grassland field work in countries we most directly deal with. Most of which have trapped and captured many of the animals used to farm ball pythons with. However, it's interesting to note there are many regions of west Africa where the ball python is actually considered invasive... Many farmers used them to eat rodents and have since thrived. I'd say I was wrong to say ball pythons don't climb period, as we all know they do and will go wherever they need to in order to survive, whether to feed or be comfortable. I still stand by my first statement that it is definitely out of the norm, and would suggest to a keeper to check their husbandry.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thats not what that study says.

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Here's the quote from the study, Tessadas.

"Python regius is a species widespread and locally abundant in southeastern Nigeria. We found it especially in bushy and dryland rainforest patches, but occasionally even in permanently flooded swamp-forest patches, along creak and river banks, and in subur- ban areas."

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I'll be honest, most of my info comes from farmland/grassland field work in countries we most directly deal with. Most of which have trapped and captured many of the animals used to farm ball pythons with. However, it's interesting to note there are many regions of west Africa where the ball python is actually considered invasive... Many farmers used them to eat rodents and have since thrived. I'd say I was wrong to say ball pythons don't climb period, as we all know they do and will go wherever they need to in order to survive, whether to feed or be comfortable. I still stand by my first statement that it is definitely out of the norm, and would suggest to a keeper to check their husbandry.

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Temperatures in the tank range from 79-90 from the cool area to the space directly under the heater. Humidity ranges from about 40 before to 70 directly after a spray. The picture was taken 10m or so after, there were a few droplets of water on the bottom of her tail. Perhaps the slightly lowered temperatures from the water spritz and increased humidity drove her up there, but I suspect she was up there before the spray, and she stayed there for several hours after.

And this morning she was in a hide like normal. At one point I could see her breathing visibly, but I've not observed her enough to tell if this was abnormal. It didn't seem like "heavy" breathing per se.

Should I be concerned? It seems like my parameters are correct.

I'd like to clarify here that I'm not the type of keeper who is not going to listen to advice. I've no stake in the arboreal debate and only picked the thread's topic in jest.

I may be new to balls, but if any of you would like evidence of my devotion to my (herp) pets and ability to care for them, here's what I built for my turtle to live in:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/fo...ht=swamp+thing

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/...47AA714BF1B1F0

not sure if this link will work or not but the study sites using radio tracking of bps in the wild and the observation that males are more likely to climb and mostly at night.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Here's the quote from the study, Tessadas.

"Python regius is a species widespread and locally abundant in southeastern Nigeria. We found it especially in bushy and dryland rainforest patches, but occasionally even in permanently flooded swamp-forest patches, along creak and river banks, and in subur- ban areas."

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But they don't live "in" swamps, as in the don't live in the water. They will live in holes in the ground or in tree stumps, but not in damp swampy areas. I do believe they can be occasionally found in those swampy areas. They are probably found there looking for prey items.

Apparently no one read the cites report? 75 Royals were collected and one in a tree. There is more detailed observation of it systematically poking in each and every hole in the tree the observation period was 30 mins if memory serves. The Italian group (L, Luiselli) remarked that perhaps in regards to sub adult the classification is incorrect and semi arboreal is appropriate. It is available in journals if one bothers to read them.

That said the fact any breeder states they know about the behaviour of wild royals because they keep 10000 or 10000000 in plastic tubs is offensive. there is very little field studies done and little knowledge of what the real behaviour actually is.

There can be no absolutes. The fact still remains however that the behaviour of a royal in an enclosure bears little to no relation to a wild population. The fast wild snakes climb is hard to argue if you have read the studies (and where do snakes get fledglings of tree dwelling birds from if not from trees?) The fact a young snake is climbing can be an exploration or seeking correct temps. The nature of the activity comes into play. Calm tongue flicking curiosity is likely just that. Fast jerky not so much tongue flicks is likely some sort of stress.

No blanket statements they simply do not fit every animal. I have a big male whom often perches at the top of his enclosure he rarely skips a meal and is a healthy animal who is just curious by nature. (he gets into everything when handled) My other male if he were climbing I would be freaking out. It is not his nature at all.

Personally I don't believe tall enclosures are a good idea anything over 18 inches is hard to maintain correct temps and humidity. Personally I would say 16-18 is ideal heights.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cite...thon_ghana.pdf

Mike, ball pythons can thrive in 80% humidity :rolleye2:

This is for Ghana:
Mean relative humidity for an average year is recorded as 81.0% and on a monthly basis it ranges from 77% in February & March to 85% in June & July.

For Nigeria:
Mean relative humidity for an average year is recorded as 84.7% and on a monthly basis it ranges from 80% in March to 88% in June, July, September & October.

RI's are typically caused by low humidity and low temps, I have yet to hear about RI's being caused by high humidity unless there's bacterial growth going on in the high humidity environment.

Every ball I've had in tanks and other environments besides tubs fell off of those high spots, which was one of the reasons I stopped using anything besides tubs.
They are quite clumsy up in the air :P

Ok.... I don't comment very often here. I'm more of a lurker to learn. Most of the ball python books out there that we all live by gives a dry, grassland habitat that we go with. Any animal including ball pythons can make the best of fringe areas and can survive in them. So instead of making a generalization that bps like branches or not it needs to be said that they may make the best of any habitat they can survive in. It still may not be the norm. I have seen plenty of research on other animals that makes it sound like an animal can survive in a particular area, but it is not the normal. They just manage to make it. That is why its the fringe of their environment.
Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

The ground temps range from 82-92, so maybe it's a little warm and that's why he's climbing, but I thought he was just exploring his surroundings (he's new) and possibly planning his prison break hehe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRNwzA9msDg

Low humidity is not likely a cause of RI bacteria do not generally same for spores thrive in low humidity conditions. That would leave only viral RI which thankfully is the rarest form. High humidity and poor air circulation promotes bacterial growth, and can absolutely lead to RI.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

Crazy to think only 3 of those countries routinely export ball pythons too.

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Out of pure interest, in case you are too, are you aware of the Ewe speakers and Dahomey peoples? These are the people whom worship Python Regius (Royal python... that would be where Royal comes from) Even today the areas that have either in high numbers will NOT tolerate ANY disturbance to them. Into the beginnings of the 19 century if you killed one even accidentally you would be burned or stoned to death. Even today they will not allow scientists to study or even approach them. If one is seen on a road all traffic is stopped until it moves you must no touch one, out of respect. Some of the range where royal pythons are found have large populations of one or both groups, these regions do not export or allow collection of Royal pythons. The countries that don't export Royals and have them, often they are found in political regions holding many of the Ewe or Dahomey and due to this there is no export. The land bordering on the Gulf of Guinea for the most part this area does not tend to export large amounts at all the majority coming from inland areas of Togo, Benin and Ghana.

EVOLUTION!!!

Life finds a way. Anyone who hasn't done their Darwin research, I would highly suggest it... Animals do all kinds of crazy things in order to ensure the survival of the species. A terrestrial snake climbing trees to find food in a rodent deprived area would not surprise me at all.

Sincerely,
Brendan

P.S.: An open mind is a beautiful thing. In the age of information, ignorance is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

My iphone was bugging out and not loading the last page. Yes, i see where it said it now.

I find this to be pretty interesting. Ball pythons being found in "one of the wettest areas in the world". So if they can survive there, that tells me that scale rot and RI's are over dramatized by a lot of keepers. Possibly to just scare new owners or because they really don't know the hardiness of the snakes? Though I'm sure the immune systems of the ball pythons we keep aren't quite as strong as the wild ones, so maybe not.

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I hope no one else answered this, I skimmed but I've got the worst headache and this post caught my attention. I can totally see this making sense, in the wild they can move around and regulate and they aren't confined. Plastic also seems to encourage mold and bacteria growth whereas many natural, organic substances retard it. Being in a moist enclosed environment that they are always in contact with would be a lot different than being in a very moist, humid outdoor setting.
Coupled with the fact that many keepers do not/ cannot clean and sterilize *immediately* when a snake makes a mess, I could easily see how more moisture can make scale rot or RI more likely in captivity. In the wild they can simply leave the area they defecated in.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Apparently no one read the cites report? 75 Royals were collected and one in a tree. There is more detailed observation of it systematically poking in each and every hole in the tree the observation period was 30 mins if memory serves. The Italian group (L, Luiselli) remarked that perhaps in regards to sub adult the classification is incorrect and semi arboreal is appropriate. It is available in journals if one bothers to read them.

That said the fact any breeder states they know about the behaviour of wild royals because they keep 10000 or 10000000 in plastic tubs is offensive. there is very little field studies done and little knowledge of what the real behaviour actually is.

There can be no absolutes. The fact still remains however that the behaviour of a royal in an enclosure bears little to no relation to a wild population. The fast wild snakes climb is hard to argue if you have read the studies (and where do snakes get fledglings of tree dwelling birds from if not from trees?) The fact a young snake is climbing can be an exploration or seeking correct temps. The nature of the activity comes into play. Calm tongue flicking curiosity is likely just that. Fast jerky not so much tongue flicks is likely some sort of stress.

No blanket statements they simply do not fit every animal. I have a big male whom often perches at the top of his enclosure he rarely skips a meal and is a healthy animal who is just curious by nature. (he gets into everything when handled) My other male if he were climbing I would be freaking out. It is not his nature at all.

Personally I don't believe tall enclosures are a good idea anything over 18 inches is hard to maintain correct temps and humidity. Personally I would say 16-18 is ideal heights.

http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cite...thon_ghana.pdf

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If anybody does kill a royal python, he/she must purchase a new cooking pot and carry the “corpse” to Afife for burial.
The culprit’s hair on head, armpits, anus and genital area are shaven.

My bp climbs all over the tank and frequently hangs out in the top of his tree shaped hide instead of inside it, he gets active at night and is everywhere. :)

Skip, that true? Some of the old customs are quite odd I can't tell if you are in your sarcastic mode of hidden gem mode. :D I get the Ewe and Afife confused. The Afife region and Ewe people, but do the Ewe speakers in Afife region call themselves Afife or Ewe? I am never sure how that all works.

Lol I thought when the cat of an Egyptian cat died all the family members shaved themselves. I dunno.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Skip, that true? Some of the old customs are quite odd I can't tell if you are in your sarcastic mode of hidden gem mode. :D I get the Ewe and Afife confused. The Afife region and Ewe people, but do the Ewe speakers in Afife region call themselves Afife or Ewe? I am never sure how that all works.

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It's in the document you linked to.....verbatim!

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Mike, ball pythons can thrive in 80% humidity :rolleye2:

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Don't you roll your eyes at me mister! :p

I seriously didn't know that. I always thought 50-60% was best for them (except when in shed). This thread has taught me a lot of new things I didn't know. Dream vacation would be to go to Africa and study these guys in the wild!

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Don't you roll your eyes at me mister! :p

I seriously didn't know that. I always thought 50-60% was best for them (except when in shed). This thread has taught me a lot of new things I didn't know. Dream vacation would be to go to Africa and study these guys in the wild!

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I agree. This is a good thread. I joined the forum to learn about the snakes, and this thread helped remind me about that. Even though I spend 80% of the time in the pictures section :D.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

Even though I spend 80% of the time in the pictures section :D.

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Yea agreed, the female keepers thread is such a distraction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Yea agreed, the female keepers thread is such a distraction.

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Yeah, I initially wrote 95%, but I had to change it up before posting it :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Low humidity is not likely a cause of RI bacteria do not generally same for spores thrive in low humidity conditions. That would leave only viral RI which thankfully is the rarest form. High humidity and poor air circulation promotes bacterial growth, and can absolutely lead to RI.

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I guess my vet lied to me then.
Look at all of the RI's that people come to this forum asking for help on, to a T almost every single one of them are in tanks with low humidity issues and low temperature problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Don't you roll your eyes at me mister! :p

I seriously didn't know that. I always thought 50-60% was best for them (except when in shed). This thread has taught me a lot of new things I didn't know. Dream vacation would be to go to Africa and study these guys in the wild!

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Personally, I always thought 50% was too low despite the care sheets for the same reasons Jerry posted.
My humidity is 60-70% normally.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Personally, I always thought 50% was too low despite the care sheets for the same reasons Jerry posted.
My humidity is 60-70% normally.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Me too. It ranges from 60-80 depending on if I just wet the eco earth. He had his first shed with me and it came out all in one piece. I didn't even get to see the peeling stage because he got it off so quickly.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I guess my vet lied to me then.
Look at all of the RI's that people come to this forum asking for help on, to a T almost every single one of them are in tanks with low humidity issues and low temperature problems.

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Low temps absolutely, low RH not so much. I have never seen good information on low RH linked (do you have a link to a published paper in a journal or like document? I would love to read it) , only high RH. J Rossi and R Klingenberg not to mention the Barkers, warn about the issues of high RH and with poor ventilation. Low temps are the biggest issue and I believe poor ventilation joined with high RH to be a contributing factor. I have kept a snake at 40% with dips to 30% for years she is healthy and 100% fine, your vet would say she should be sick? Then humid hides would not work, the animal would be sick and shed would not be concern. I seem to remember a few posts of a number of snakes in a rack with high RH and no ventilation holes at all all with Bacterial RI. The petri dish syndrome at work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I guess my vet lied to me then.
Look at all of the RI's that people come to this forum asking for help on, to a T almost every single one of them are in tanks with low humidity issues and low temperature problems.

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The reason humidity is an issue is different.
Low humidity dries out mucous membranes. A physical barrier against bacteria and viruses.
So, you are absolutely correct that low humidity can contribute to infection risk, especially if the animal is not getting fresh clean water every single day.

High humidity by itself shouldn't be much of an issue but when combined with a dirty environment (food source) this enables bacteria population to explode increasing a snakes exposure.

What works in the wild does not always work in captivity, atleast in the limited living quarters and controlled environments we are talking about.

Tempurature is likely the most critical as the animals proteins(including antibodies) are designed to function in a certain range. Too high or too low and those antibodies cannot do their job.

So the claim is that ball pythons have adapted in such a way that their protection against pathogens is related to humidity? Or do members now have access to some research that shows that ball pythons desiccate easily? More forum hokum and heresay? While I no longer keep ball pythons, I did and did so successfully - all at an ambient humidity of about 35%. Never an RI did we endure.

Now there are animals that have been documented to do very poorly at low humidity - balls just aren't one of them.

Ball pythons select micro climates in their zones that provide higher than ambient humidity during the day. Humidity numbers throughout their range are all over the board.

I agree with Alex - I'd be more concerned about reaching some artificial ambient humidity via misting, excess water and bad circulation. You feel the need to bump up humidity? Create and maintain a humid hide.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

But they don't live "in" swamps, as in the don't live in the water. They will live in holes in the ground or in tree stumps, but not in damp swampy areas. I do believe they can be occasionally found in those swampy areas. They are probably found there looking for prey items.

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How in the world do you know this? Do the BPs go to the swamps to hunt, then return to the ever-necessary grassland surrounded termite mound when they are full? The fact is, these animals are extremely adaptable in the wild and in captivity. Here is a study that shows this, but people still don't believe it, or they think it must be extreme behavior found in a fringe environment. Think about BCI and the incredibly diverse conditions they are found, from rainforest to desert, and everything in between. These things are only fragile in a 20 long.

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Originally Posted by majorleaguereptiles

I don't know Skips? Please have them email me his experience. As I said, if a snake were to climb in the wild, it would be temperature related. Curious who said they climb trees for food and who has actual experience in the bush to share with me or if this was just an assumption. Ball pythons actual act the exact opposite when searching for food in the wild since their primary food source is underground.

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So your saying the ONLY reason ANY snake would climb in the wild is ONLY for temperature?!?!?! You do realize many snake species feed on birds....and birds live in trees....-_-

As this is still a thread in the pictures section....
I don't know about anyone else's snakes, but I have one CH, slender-but-muscular male, and the only direction he ever wants to go when exploring anywhere is UP! :gj::gj:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...1/IMG_0424.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...1/IMG_0425.jpg

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Originally Posted by kdreptiles

As this is still a thread in the pictures section....
I don't know about anyone else's snakes, but I have one CH, slender-but-muscular male, and the only direction he ever wants to go when exploring anywhere is UP! :gj::gj:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...1/IMG_0424.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...1/IMG_0425.jpg

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Hmmmm.

There goes "the only reason they climb is to escape high temperature" theory".

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Personally, I always thought 50% was too low despite the care sheets for the same reasons Jerry posted.
My humidity is 60-70% normally.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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X2. Mine gets dented eye sheilds below 50%. I keep my tub in the 60's on a normal day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danojeno

How in the world do you know this? Do the BPs go to the swamps to hunt, then return to the ever-necessary grassland surrounded termite mound when they are full? The fact is, these animals are extremely adaptable in the wild and in captivity. Here is a study that shows this, but people still don't believe it, or they think it must be extreme behavior found in a fringe environment. Think about BCI and the incredibly diverse conditions they are found, from rainforest to desert, and everything in between. These things are only fragile in a 20 long.

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How about because the study said that they are found their OCCASIONALLY? Did you ever see me say that they need "the ever-necessary grassland surrounded termite mound"? Pretty sure that If they are only occasionally found in swampy areas then that would possibly mean they are there hunting for prey items. :O