Ethical Dilemna?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

I saw this issue sorta briefly mentioned in the thread about a good starter handgun.

(Youre carrying a gun in this hypothetical situation). If you came home and saw someone walking out the back door with your jewelry box is it worth it to shoot the person and take a human life over $300 worth of jewelry?

My initial reaction to reading that was absolutely yes, id have zero problem doing it. In fact if i saw someone (a person i didnt immediately recognize) walking out my back door with any of my stuff id have no problem shooting them. It would have to look like an obvious robbery though. Now i personally dont have any guns. I've put some serious thought into getting one eventually but at the moment the most dangerous gun i own is a pellet gun lol. Do you guys think that my opinion would change after i got a handgun? Am i a bad person for reading that and having that kind of reaction? I'd just like to hear what people think on the subject. I feel like my initial reaction sorta makes me sound like a trigger happy psycho lol. If youre comfortable saying so, let us know if you have a gun. If you have any stories similar to the hypothetical scenario go ahead and share them if you like.

---

There is no right or wrong answer to your question, really. You're going to be judged on the totality of the circumstances, the laws in effect in the state/area in which you live and any number of other factors, including case law for similar situations, mitigating and extenuating circumstances, etc. If I were confronted with that situation, as a 200+ pound individual trained and proficient in the use of various empty hand martial arts techniques as well as being armed, no, I would not take that shot. If a 90 pound female carrying a child were confronted with that situation with the "robber" being a 275 pound Patriots offensive line looking fella, that would dramatically change the perceived level of threat and the circumstances in that case. Much like a boxer or prize fighter being held to a higher standard given their training and experience if they get into a physical altercation with someone. The burden and onus of the situation is on you; know the law, know your rights and make dang sure of things before you pull the trigger. Once it's sent, no calling it back. If the situation dictates it, by all means defend yourself or those around you if it's warranted. As soon as the aggressive action(s) on the part of the individual(s) committing the offenses ceases, YOU then become the aggressor and you better make sure of what you're doing if that's the case. Again, heat of the moment, moment of passion, etc. Like I said, there is no right or wrong answer and it's largely going to be a case-by-case basis for the situation you mentioned. Food for thought if you ever decide to upgrade your Red Ryder, lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thats really, really creepy lol.

---

x2, Would've freaked me the hell out, that's for sure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

We are a Castle Doctrine state. The week after it went into effect there were 5 justified shootings, since crime in our city dropped by 30% and is still falling. There something in the mind that says "be aware if you kick this door in there is a good chance the redneck on the other side just might teach you to play a harp."

---

I really wish this were the reality where I live. Crime is rising, especially with AB109 early releases, and now talk about abandoning warrants on those criminals who are fleeing... There's almost no penalty now, no incentive to change their dirty deeds, and since the prisons are full, no way to hold them.... Of course maybe that could work to the benefit of the rest of us too... ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

I was always told growing up its better to shoot to kill than shoot to wound in cases of self defense basically due to our law suit loving society and a dead man can't sue...though some would argue his/her estate could....

---

The family members would file a "wrongful death" lawsuit, or at least here they would. And sadly there's a reasonable chance they would win. Real life case: Burglar robs a 90 year old man at gunpoint, the victim shoots the burglar, burglar attempts to shoot him in the head then flees when he realizes he's out of bullets. Burglar charged with attempted murder, burglary, and firearm offense by a felon, counter-sues the victim for causing great bodily harm, financial damage, and dissolution of his marriage. That's why you shoot to kill and not just injure.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2040468.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solarsoldier001

What happens if it wasn't jewelry that was being taken. But your kids or your snakes? Would you automatically pull the trigger with no hesitation? I am just curious when its something real and not materialistic.

---

Animals are considered property by law, so no, couldn't shoot the thief in that circumstance. If someone were attempting to kidnap my child or other human relatives, I WOULD take some sort of action, but I probably would NOT shoot the perpetrator in that circumstance, because I would not want to risk shooting my loved one. Close contact, movement, and struggle... I am NOT a good enough shot to be comfortable with that situation. Exact action depends on the situation: is there a knife or other weapon being used? How close am I to the kidnapper? Immediate threat of death or injury? etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

Thats really, really creepy lol.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

x2, Would've freaked me the hell out, that's for sure

---

And that is why we live in the middle of Amish country Ohio. Not too many panty raids here. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

And that is why we live in the middle of Amish country Ohio. Not too many panty raids here. :gj:

---

According to discovery channel the Amish mafia is a real danger in those areas tho hahahaha if the Amish mafia is a real thing I will pee myself cuz the show is cheesy

Ax Men > Amish Mafia

My house is guarded by a Rot, a German Shepard, and a ankle bitter. If those don't deter a criminal we have 2 side handle batons and a revolver loaded with hollow points. However, I would not shoot someone stealing stuff, that is why I have big dogs and batons. The gun is for self defense or defense of others, but if I pull that I aim to kill not wound and I won't hesitate, especially if any of my family is present. As mentioned you do need to know your local laws as well, they have to inside your house, facing you and you have to fear for your life or the life of another to pull a gun, a gun is lethal force, even shooting to wound is likely to kill so if you need a less then lethal option pick something else. In the instance mentioned, I would not use the gun unless the person came after me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sama

My house is guarded by a Rot, a German Shepard, and a ankle bitter. If those don't deter a criminal we have 2 side handle batons and a revolver loaded with hollow points. However, I would not shoot someone stealing stuff, that is why I have big dogs and batons. The gun is for self defense or defense of others, but if I pull that I aim to kill not wound and I won't hesitate, especially if any of my family is present. As mentioned you do need to know your local laws as well, they have to inside your house, facing you and you have to fear for your life or the life of another to pull a gun, a gun is lethal force, even shooting to wound is likely to kill so if you need a less then lethal option pick something else. In the instance mentioned, I would not use the gun unless the person came after me.

---

Yea but someone else had already mentioned in the thread that if someone breaks in and gets bit by your dog you could be held liable lol. Idk what the laws are where they live or where you live though.

If they bite yes, but if they look in the window and see 2 big dogs or if they approach the door the dogs freak out any time someone gets on the porch, hence deterant. If they actually enter the house and get bit, I will fight for my dogs with everything I have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sama

If they bite yes, but if they look in the window and see 2 big dogs or if they approach the door the dogs freak out any time someone gets on the porch, hence deterant. If they actually enter the house and get bit, I will fight for my dogs with everything I have.

---

And HOPEFULLY the burglars will be smart enough to move on to another house!

I have 2 dogs, primary job is pet and companion, 2nd job is deterrent. These dogs are highly unlikely to bite anyone unless cornered, but they sure will raise hell barking. I have to tell you about my dad's dog though. He's a border collie/lab mix (best we can figure anyways). He DOES bark, even barks at me when I come over to visit and he knows me! Then one day my dad's house got broken into. They hopped the wall that surrounds his back fence, popped the screen out of the kitchen window and climbed in, whole time the dog was in the house. They then put his dog in the garage, stole part of his coin collection, 2 laptops, and left through a bedroom window. Some guard dog...

Owning and carrying a gun is a very big responsibility and should not be taken lightly. The best thing you can do is read up on the laws in your state.

Here in PA the castle law use to state the only place you could legally hold your ground and use lethal force was in your own home. If you were out and about you had to make an attempt to flee when in danger before lethal force was legal. In the past year that has changed. Now you do not need to flee if you feel you life is in danger.

To those saying that you would just shoot to hurt them. They can and will sue you when they recover and they will win. As bad as it is I had a officer tell me that. Plus there has been stories about people breaking into houses and fell down the stairs and sued the homeowner and won.

I have the attention span of a gold fish (3 seconds on a good day) so i didnt read every post. I want to point out that should you decide to own, and especially if you decide to carry a weapon, to go to safety class's. For your concealed permit you are required to yes, but i suggest going to them reguardless. No one is more dangerous then someone uneducated in what they are doing with their weapon. I have many personal experiences with firearm safety from being military, running a painball field for 7 years, being an avid hunter, and carrying a concealed weapon myself. On the painball field with a weapon most believe is non lethal, you would be amazed at how many people dont use the safety and walk aroudn with fingers on triggers. Ive seen people loose eyes because of this. Its horrible. In basic training for the army i watched a man nearly shoot a drill instructor because someone called his name and he just turned, weapon and all, and squeezed the trigger. I worked nights out of a service truck on semi's, i carried thousands in tools everywhere i went. I had a man walk up and take tools right out of my toolbox with me 10ft away. I chose to draw my sidearm, tell him he can have the tools just walk away. If i had chosen to shoot, i would probably have been arrested for murder over 300$ in tools. Another point is if you do infact shoot someone for legit defense of your home or your person, their family can and often will sue, your insurance will drop you. It becomes very difficult to deal with insurance companies after that. There are so many reason to enducate yourself and train your self mentaly and phisically to know how to react to these situations. Gun control no matter how strict can only go so far. People need to take responsibilty for their own actions. Some states with the highest gun control laws have the highest shooting rates. It just proves that owners are the ones who must take this responsibility, and take the time to educate yourself. When it comes to takeing a human life no one is ready for what follows. Mentally and phisicaly its demanding and does stay with you forever.

The biggest problem with a weapon is knowing when to use it. To early and you have legal responsibility to prove that lethal force was necessary. Too late and you risk being disarmed, and losing your weapon to your attacker.

When I drove cab, most of the drivers I worked with that carried weapons had them used against them at some point.

Having a weapon is not enough, knowing how and when to use it is key.

A) never shoot to only injur unless you want to be broke and in court for a while.
B) Never actually say "stop or I'll kill you" or "Drop it or I'll shoot you in the face" - can be held against you in a court of law as premeditated murder and not defense.
C) anytime lethal force is used it must only be used as
1) a last resort
2) If and only IF you're life is in immediatet danger
3) you have no other option
4) to stop someone from stealing your property
a) Varies by state, and needs to be considered in an individual basis. While it may be legal, it may not be worth it. You can ask the perp to stop and drop your items with a gun pointed at them and hope for the best, but if they are carrying a weapon things could turn ugly quick.

While I would not shoot someone over a petty theft while I was out of the house - I would shoot someone who breaks into my home while I am home. There is a big difference from arriving at a robbery than actually being home during a B&E where force may be used against you. For this your need to be prepared and understand the consequences of being prepared.

I'm assuming Mike pulled this entire thread from another thread where I gave the statement about its an ethical obligation to consider whether a persons life is worth 300 dollars. And it's a good thing to think about before you arrive in that situation. Draw bounrdries and understand your own personal limits of what you are capable of. Be confident but not over confident, and that is a very fine line.

As a concealed permit holder, daily carrier, and avid shooter I believe in my rights to stop a thief, stop an intruder, and stop a person from threatening my life or putting my life in danger at their control. I've had to show a weapon once, keep my hand near my weapon in another instance, and have read countless stories where people have been put through tough choices.

Carrying a gun, owning a gun, is part of your rights in the US. Rights that should not be hindered and are protected under the 2nd ammendment. HOW you use the gun is up to the person who holds the gun. There are consequences for using them wrong, but again only you can draw the line of what you do or do not do.

In answer to the ethical statement - IF they are running and are presumed not a threat to my well being. I'd let them run and call it in following them if I could safely. IF I can see any visual weapons, I still do the same thing UNLESS they see me and percieve me as a threat. Then I would result in placing 1-2 shots if needed. This is where my line is drawn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seth702

I have the attention span of a gold fish (3 seconds on a good day) so i didnt read every post. I want to point out that should you decide to own, and especially if you decide to carry a weapon, to go to safety class's. For your concealed permit you are required to yes, but i suggest going to them reguardless. No one is more dangerous then someone uneducated in what they are doing with their weapon. I have many personal experiences with firearm safety from being military, running a painball field for 7 years, being an avid hunter, and carrying a concealed weapon myself. On the painball field with a weapon most believe is non lethal, you would be amazed at how many people dont use the safety and walk aroudn with fingers on triggers. Ive seen people loose eyes because of this. Its horrible. In basic training for the army i watched a man nearly shoot a drill instructor because someone called his name and he just turned, weapon and all, and squeezed the trigger. I worked nights out of a service truck on semi's, i carried thousands in tools everywhere i went. I had a man walk up and take tools right out of my toolbox with me 10ft away. I chose to draw my sidearm, tell him he can have the tools just walk away. If i had chosen to shoot, i would probably have been arrested for murder over 300$ in tools. Another point is if you do infact shoot someone for legit defense of your home or your person, their family can and often will sue, your insurance will drop you. It becomes very difficult to deal with insurance companies after that. There are so many reason to enducate yourself and train your self mentaly and phisically to know how to react to these situations. Gun control no matter how strict can only go so far. People need to take responsibilty for their own actions. Some states with the highest gun control laws have the highest shooting rates. It just proves that owners are the ones who must take this responsibility, and take the time to educate yourself. When it comes to takeing a human life no one is ready for what follows. Mentally and phisicaly its demanding and does stay with you forever.

---

In the state of Washington (and probably others) you aren't required to take any classes for concealed carry. Be 21 or older, show photo ID, be fingerprinted, pay fee, that's it. You're rout that you should, just not that it's a requirement.

In Minnesota gotta pay 100 and take a weekend class sixteen hrs

It was mentioned early on, but I'll restate it for my answer. There's a certain mentality, one that you HAVE to adopt (much like the reptile hobby) so that you don't screw it up for everyone else. It's sooooo much easier to do it when it comes to guns.

I personally don't trust myself, if someone cut me off in traffic or someone I had to deal with everyday tee'd me off...I can't say I wouldn't do it. Not kill them, of course, but use the gun in a way detrimental to others hobby. If anyone broke into my house, stole my things, harmed my family, anything super personal...yeah, depending on the situation it either be double to the chest or one to the knee and an *** whooping till they're subdued.

To cap it off, the open carry law just came into effect in Oklahoma.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

wish Texas would allow open carry :( it was fun open carrying in AZ! And you can do it in louisna as well.

As others have already said, regardless of the laws in your state, if they're exiting the premises, it's pretty darn hard to consider them a threat, and therefore would be unethical to fire on them, even if it might be legal to do so under certain circumstances in some jurisdictions. Aside from the ethics and legality of your proposed actions, you also need to consider the consequences. Shooting someone WILL result in emotional trauma and major inconvenience for you. Unless you're unbalanced to begin with, you won't like how you feel afterward. Your gun will be taken as evidence, to be returned at a date unknown, maybe, if you're lucky, and that presumes you're found to be in the right. You'll have to spend a lot of time talking with the cops about what happened, and your story had better match the evidence.

Basically, it's going to be bad for you in some (or a lot of) ways if you shoot someone, and therefore it should only be done in order to prevent something worse, such as a direct threat on your life or someone else's life. $300 worth of your stuff walking out the back door doesn't qualify - insurance will buy you a new TV, jewelry, etc.

Finally, if you DO have to shoot, trying to wound is flat stupid. If you have justification to fire at all, it's because you have justification to kill, and especially under the influence of adrenaline, center mass is a LOT bigger/easier target than a leg or other extremity, and has the interesting side benefit of being much more likely to actually stop the threat.